Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

In article .com,
Pubkeybreaker wrote:

Herman Rubin wrote:
In article . com,
Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:


What we really need for university admission, and even
for high school graduation, is a comprehensive examination
of sufficient length, with no multiple choice questions,
and examining understanding.

What is sufficient length? A 3-hour exam in each of English,
Foreign Language, Math, History, Government, Biology, Chemistry,
Physics, Art, Music, Phys Ed etc. etc?
You would also need exams for many *different* foreign languages...
Most states have a Phys Ed requirement for graduation.

Three hours is unlikely to be long enough. And Phys Ed is
essentially an attendance and participation requirement,
with essentially no subject matter.

Where are Universities going to get the money to pay for people
(or even find enough people) to grade these exams? Ditto for
high schools?

Britain seems to be able to find enough for their sixth
form exams.

What consitutes a "comprehensive" exam? Not all students study
all material to the same depth. Would you expect that someone planning
to be a music major study math, chemistry and physics to the same
extent as a potential physics major? Or vice versa? You would have
to have *many* different exams depending on the type of program
followed
in high school. This would be prohibitive to administer.

It is not "depth" but understanding which needs to be tested.
Someone who understands can use it, even if the manipulations
turn out to be difficult. The universal math requirement for
graduation should be the understanding of the numbers up to
the real numbers, formulation of word problems, and understanding
of what proofs are. For those who will be doing mathematics,
some facility in solving problems and producing proofs is needed.
These are weaker than the English requirements, of which reading
and writing fiction is a major part.

The alternative "one size fits all" comprehensive exam would either
set
the bar too low, or not properly separate the students applying to
Princeton
from the students applying to Podunk University. Or do you propose a
separate exam for each college? Now we are REALLY talking about
"expensive"!!

Not really. One examines in the subjects submitted. Each
university would use its evaluations of the results, just
as they do now for the other evidence submitted.

And if Podunk offers a course which Princeton offers, it
should be equivalent. Only absolute grades are meaningful.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

karlisa wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a
course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I
see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's;
the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in
the important things.

Interesting, and if such a student were to attend college and have that
same attitude about his/her school work and then earn a bunch of D's or
F's, don't you think it is a safe assumption that the student will be
placed on academic probation or suspension? So, there are consequences
to being a slackard.

It depends though, doesn't it? One option for the students is to only
start classes of they think they can get an A on it (ie deliberately
*not* stretching themselves). Another is to start several more classes,
and drop the worst subjects or the subjects they dislike after they
have tried it. So they might end up with 2 As, 5 Bs, 2 Ds and an F,
but they are more rounded then the student who started 4 subjects
and got As in them.

I work in the admissions office at a large public university and I can
tell you, the high school students who apply at our university are
required to provide high school transcripts with their applications.
These transcripts *do* reveal grades and GPAs. Many provide class

GPA is "grade point average", right? So there is a risk for a student
who takes an extra subject if they might do badly in it? They might
be better off taking only familiar subjects they feel confident
about doing well in.

[snip]

Note, I haven't been through the US education system.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

In article . com,
karlisa wrote:

Herman Rubin wrote:

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a
course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I
see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's;
the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in
the important things.

Interesting, and if such a student were to attend college and have that
same attitude about his/her school work and then earn a bunch of D's or
F's, don't you think it is a safe assumption that the student will be
placed on academic probation or suspension? So, there are consequences
to being a slackard.

At the college level, there is the "drop" option. And a
bright student is likely to be retained, as the major
department will find a way to finagle it.

Many high schools will not reveal grades or GPAs or
class ranks to universities, including most of the
good ones in Indiana. In that case, the admissions
department, of whatever school, would not know about
those poor grades.


I work in the admissions office at a large public university and I can
tell you, the high school students who apply at our university are
required to provide high school transcripts with their applications.
These transcripts *do* reveal grades and GPAs. Many provide class
rank. We probably only receive one or two transcripts a year from high
schools that do not grade their students. However, they will provide a
course description of each course that they student took and then a
notation beside it that says "if the student were to receive a grade in
this course, he/she would have earned an 'A'or 'B' or whatever." So
I'm doubtful that there are really that many students who don't have
grades or gpa's recorded on their transcripts. Even the homeschooled
kids have grades recorded on their transcripts. Of course, they're all
A's. ;-)

Giving the courses and what was covered (NOT done on
transcripts; I have no way of knowing what those
chickentracks mean) is one thing, giving the grades
(which were given at the end of the term, just not









put on the transcript) is another.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

Raving Beauty wrote:
nimue wrote:
No. Your weak sentence structure made it difficult to understand
what you were trying to say.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.


That sentence is clear. You might want to reach for a thesaurus, however.


Teachers know they have the power to make or break a child.

The temptation to play god is one they can't resist.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So, I take it you believe that all teachers like to destroy their students.
Well, it's quite obvious nothing I can say will make you change your mind,
so goodbye. I hope you get the help you need.

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

Raving wrote:
nimue wrote:
Raving wrote:
Raving Beauty wrote:
nimue wrote:
toto wrote:
I am a
teacher and I can tell you that kids who get As usually do so
because they love learning.

Bull****.

Getting straight A's necessitates one PLAY THE GAME

A) Feed teachers demand for narcissistic supply

B) Appease teachers demand for form over substance

C) Always subordinate the truth to being an A student

etc.
I would roughly agree with Raving Beauty on this one.

Those classes that I learned the most in, were the ones that I
*really* had to struggle to learn. Coasting along with a near
perfect score is dumb.

That may be true, but that has nothing to do with what Raving Beauty
said. No.

Specifically in this situation; RB's summarizing is proximately,
appropriate.

Uh, what? What are you saying?

The student's essential regard is for the 'Grade Score'.

Oh, is English not your first language? In the US, we would just say
"grade," not "Grade Score." Your use of capitals makes me wonder if you are
German. Are you?

Concern with regard to ...

* Demonstrated "level of proficiency"
* Relative improvement of ability and/or understanding
* creation and/or development of NEW skills and/or understanding

... is quite beside the point as far as the student is concerned.

The student has mastered that essential knowledge.

"Winning is the only thing that is important". Give the person what
they want.

That may be what RB said, but it still bears no relation to what you said.

Being penalized for struggling and failing is dumb, dumb and dumber.

Yeah, RB didn't say that, either. ...
Agreed.

...FYI, that is a very touchy subject. If
you have a kid who does every homework, has perfect attendance, and
gives his all AND still fails tests and quizzes, what do you do? Do
you pass him? After all, he has tried. Still, his writing is
terrible and his reading comp almost nil. So, what do you do?

Dunnoh' , 'cept to point out that the essential concern is on
improving skills and increasing understanding.

Have you heard of a little thing called NCLB that rules our lives? While I
agree that students should improve their skills and increase their
understanding, if they are not at a certain level by a certain time and
their tests scores show that, the school can wind up on the NCLB bad list.
It can even be shut down. So, let's say I have a kid who has improved, but
he is still not good enough to do the work on the next grade level. Despite
all his efforts, he's not. Do I hold him back? Do I fail him? Do I crush
his ego? I have to tell you I (and many teachers) have a really hard time
doing that, We love these kids! However, if I pass him, will other
teachers complain that we are just passing kids along? It is not easy.

"Kissing ass" for brownie points and celebrating that accomplishment
is a predominant, awkward and counterproductive issue. It is
worthwhile and important. It is also limited and misleading.

Cordially,

Raving

--
nimue

"As an unwavering Republican, I have quite naturally burned more books
than I have read." Betty Bowers

English is our friend. We don't have to fight it.
Oprah

"nimue" wrote in message
...
Raving Beauty wrote:
nimue wrote:
No. Your weak sentence structure made it difficult to understand
what you were trying to say.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.

You are full of ****.


That sentence is clear. You might want to reach for a thesaurus, however.

Why?

To please you?

Fat chance!







Teachers know they have the power to make or break a child.

The temptation to play god is one they can't resist.

Power corrupts; absolute power corrupts absolutely.

So, I take it you believe that all teachers like to destroy their
students.

Teachers sacrifice a great deal while PLAYING THE GAME to get their
degrees.

Teachers sacrifice even more while PLAYING THE GAME to get and keep their
teaching license.

There is NO chance that persons who had to sacrifice EVERYTHING, most
especially their conscience and morals, just to get their degrees, then
get and keep their teaching license are not going to make damn sure their
students are forced to make the same damn sacrifices.

In article ,
nimue wrote:
Herman Rubin wrote:
In article .com,
Fred Goodwin, CMA wrote:
Seeking straight A's, parents push for pills

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14590058/

Pediatricians report increasing requests for 'academic doping'
By Victoria Clayton
MSNBC contributor

Updated: 10:16 a.m. CT Sept 7, 2006

....................

I suggest that grades be abolished, except for advisory
purposes. Also, it should be understood that getting a
high grade and learning the important material may well
be at odds with each other.

Furthermore, I see nothing wrong with signing up for a
course and then deciding it is not worth completing. I
see nothing wrong with collecting a lot of D's and F's;
the straight-A student tends to be weak and shallow in
the important things.

Yeah. My straight-A kids are weak, shallow, and live meaningless lives,
while the kids who got Ds and Fs tend to be strong, deep, and are also
really in touch with the important things. Please. Most D and F kids are
lost, confused, and angry. I have seen countless straight-A students go on
to success and happiness. It's no guarantee, of course, but being able to
stay on the ball when a person is young is a pretty good indication that a
person will continue to do so when he or she is older. Failing in high
school doesn't mean a person will fail in life, but getting back on track
will be harder. Anyway, lord! What a stupid thing to say. Straight-A
students are shallow. You sound like a jealous kid with a 2.0 average. My
straight-A kids have rich souls. The D students do, too, for that matter.
So, what are these important things that failing students are so much better
at? I'd love to know.

You misread what I wrote. I did not say that one should
deliberately get D's and F's, but that one should not avoid
getting them if the school will not let courses be
dropped. It may even be that a key course will be learned,
but not in the way the instructor wanted it; this is the
case in many language courses, especially if, and this was
the case when I went to school, the purpose of the language
is to read technical works, and not to learn to speak
colloquialisms, or read "literature". This is still
useful; I still read old papers in French, German, and
Latin (I did not take Latin or Italian) and occasionally in
Italian. Sometimes, other languages arise.

I had about a 3.0 average; it was difficult to figure out,
and many of the courses were taken by examination only.
I do have D's and incompletes not made up. So what; it
is what I learned which counts. And this was more than
a half century ago. Also, I had no problem getting
academic scholarships.

Some people have complained that certain courses get
grades above 4.0. This is to get "straight A" students
to take the honors courses instead of the weak stuff;
the honors courses are still lower level than the
regular college preparatory program before WWII.
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558

"Linda Gore" wrote:
There is NO chance that persons who had to sacrifice EVERYTHING, most
especially their conscience and morals, just to get their degrees, then
get and keep their teaching license are not going to make damn sure their
students are forced to make the same damn sacrifices.

Feel free to not play the game. Feel free to starve. Rarely will
someone pay you for doing what you want instead of what they want.

That's life. Live with it.

lojbab

"nimue" wrote:
Dunnoh' , 'cept to point out that the essential concern is on
improving skills and increasing understanding.

Have you heard of a little thing called NCLB that rules our lives?

Why does it rule our lives?

Why don't we vote out all the assholes that created it, and elect new
assholes to eliminate it?

lojbab

In article ,
nimue wrote:
toto wrote:
On Sat, 09 Sep 2006 02:42:19 GMT, "nimue"
wrote:

toto wrote:
On 8 Sep 2006 13:06:37 -0400, (Herman
Rubin) wrote:

.................

I am a teacher and ime, what you say is not true. I've taught both HS
math and preschool.

I teach high school English. I always failed math. I hate math.

Do you teach the English language or do you teach English
literature? Mathematics is closer to grammar than to any
other subject, and that is one subject which has almost
vanished. Since WWII, the "in" thing in language is to
ignore structure and other things which speed up understanding,
and concentrate on learning to speak the way a child is
assumed to learn. My best language course, a one-year
college course in French, had me reading French without
translating, and I can still follow it with a Norman
accent if spoken slowly.

The mathematical analog to what is required in English
is to be able to use the language of mathematics to
formulate problems, and to understand what constitutes
a valid mathematical argument.

--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558