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#1
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red-shirting
A significant number of kids in DS's class were red-shirted. They are
normal kids whose parents wanted to give them a leg up. I hardly think this is fair. DS is competing against children who are a whole year older than he. They are going to be 7 yo and in kindergarten. As DH said, that's an embarrassment. His sister was 7 yo when she started 3rd grade. DS is doing well against them, but some younger kids aren't faring as well. It makes the 4yo's feel like failures because they can't measure up to the 6 yo's. The teacher's and parent's expectations of normal 5 yo's abilities end up being skewed. I'm told the 4 yo's will catch up, but why should they start out feeling like they have to? Why should they be measured against someone who should be a whole year ahead? Are these parents fooling themselves into thinking they have the best and brightest kids in the class when in reality their kids are really behind? Can you all weigh in on this? It's a sore spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling. |
#2
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red-shirting
Hi -- I've long felt that schools and districts should set policies for BOTH ends of the age spectrum to avoid situations like this. For example, set a cut-off date, be very flexible with children whose birthdays are within one month of the cut-off date, and require lots of hoops to jump through for children beyond that. Alternately, be very, very flexible, not only with school-entry ages, but mix grades in the same classroom so that there is a very wide range of ages in each room. There are advantages to mixing the ages. A final thought, if your school has multiple classrooms for each grade, is to age-divide the classrooms. Divide each *classroom* by birthdate for the first year or two, then gradually change the division of kids in each classroom so that you're looking at other needs than simply birthdate. You can suggest any of these things to your school and see what they say. --Beth Kevles http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner. NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would like me to reply. |
#3
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red-shirting
I did redshirt my son because at the time (30 years ago) it was
considered that boys developed more slowly than girls into school readiness. He wasn't 7 in kindergarten however, he was 7 in first grade (his birthday is in January so when he graduated from HS he was 18). My dd#1 has redshirted her youngest son also because she doesn't (didn't) think he was ready for school based on her experience with his older brother. He was also 7 in first grade. His birthday is in late August so it is near to the cut-off date. He will be 18 for his whole senior year in HS. OTOH, my dd#2's daughter was put into first grade a year early (she turned 6 in October in her first grade year) and is doing fine. She will be 17 when she graduates from HS. My sister skipped first grade (she was five years old in kindergarten and 6 years old in second grade), and also did fine. She was just barely 17 when she graduated from HS - her birthday was in early June right around the time of graduation. I was one of the youngest in my class because the cut-off was the week after I was born (my birthday was in November), and I also did fine. I was also 17 when I graduated from HS. So I think it totally depends on the child, and it is also probably better evaluated by the parent and not by a some arbitrary system. I would blame the parents who put the child into the system early and without the skills that they need rather than the system. "toypup" wrote: A significant number of kids in DS's class were red-shirted. They are normal kids whose parents wanted to give them a leg up. I hardly think this is fair. DS is competing against children who are a whole year older than he. They are going to be 7 yo and in kindergarten. As DH said, that's an embarrassment. His sister was 7 yo when she started 3rd grade. DS is doing well against them, but some younger kids aren't faring as well. It makes the 4yo's feel like failures because they can't measure up to the 6 yo's. The teacher's and parent's expectations of normal 5 yo's abilities end up being skewed. I'm told the 4 yo's will catch up, but why should they start out feeling like they have to? Why should they be measured against someone who should be a whole year ahead? Are these parents fooling themselves into thinking they have the best and brightest kids in the class when in reality their kids are really behind? Can you all weigh in on this? It's a sore spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling. |
#4
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red-shirting
"toypup" wrote in message et... spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling. I live in an area where not a lot of red-shirting really goes on. (Where did that term come from?) Of all the birthday parties DS goes to, only one kid is older than what you'd expect, and he's substantially older -- at least 6 months before the cut-off date. I don't know him or his family well enough to understand why he was held back, or whether I would have done the same in those circumstances. I understand your frustration. DD was born just before the cutoff, so even without red-shirting, she was competing with kids almost a year older. She was fine in academics, but her social development was behind, and her fine motor skills -- particularly being able to write neatly -- as well. But it is true that after a couple of years, those differences do seem to disappear. In most cases, I can't tell who is older and who is younger, and if I guess, I guess wrong. Does anyone know if the practice is still on the rise? Or if it has leveled off or started to go down? Bizby |
#5
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red-shirting
And then there's the other side-the child who may BE ready, but isn't
allowed to move on because of the birthdate. If you even attempt to place your child in another age group, you're automatically a pushy, hothousing parent who wants to create some sort of little genius. We have an October cutoff here for kindergarten, and the result is that every single program uses that cutoff for age if they have an age cutoff at all. My daughter has a November birthday. Right now, we have two groups of activities. Ones which have a multi-age toddler grouping, where she's one of the youngest (like in the church toddler nursery, which is very flexible on grouping and where we seem to have had a gap of about a year between new babies, or Kindermusik class where the toddler group is considered to be around 18 months to somewhere between 3 or 3 1/2), and her MDO program which uses a birthdate grouping, where she is absolutely the oldest. With older children, she acts like an older child, and does beautifully. With younger children, she acts like a younger child, and regresses on behaviors she shows without problems in other settings. It doesn't matter if I'm there or not. I've seen this happen no matter where we goes. I don't know if that shows good social skills, since she picks up on what is expected, or if it shows a scary need for conformity, but I tend to feel that at least at this point in her life, she does better when a group has at least some older children for her to model on. And, contacting various programs to try to find something different this year, or even next year, leads to the same thing. She won't be eligible for a 3 yr old preschool because of her birthday in the fall (which takes her out of the only available multi-age program for another year, because both local montessoris start with a 3-5 yr old grouping). She can't move to a 2 yr old program when she turns 2 in November due to cutoff dates, even though she'll BE 2, because due to cutoffs, she's too young. It may not be an issue when she's 5, and it may be that the extra few months will benefit her in school given what is being asked of kindergarteners these days, but I really wish that there would be some flexibility. It is insane to me that we could drive into a neighboring state, and have a cutoff which is two months later, where my daughter would automatically be placed with older children, but there's no budging here if I feel, as a parent, that at this time of her life she's better served by being the youngest in the group instead of the oldest. |
#6
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red-shirting
"bizby40" wrote:
"toypup" wrote in message . net... spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling. I live in an area where not a lot of red-shirting really goes on. (Where did that term come from?) It comes from the NCAA - primarily football. Each college student is allowed to compete in college athletics only 4 years. If they do not compete as freshmen, they have 4 more years to compete, thus allowing more physical and skill development (they can practice with the team - just not compete) and also allows them 5 years to complete their college degree (or not). I don't know where that term came from originally as the only other uses of red-shirt are in the Navy (where the people who handle ammunition and explosives wear red shirts), or from Star Trek. Of all the birthday parties DS goes to, only one kid is older than what you'd expect, and he's substantially older -- at least 6 months before the cut-off date. I don't know him or his family well enough to understand why he was held back, or whether I would have done the same in those circumstances. I understand your frustration. DD was born just before the cutoff, so even without red-shirting, she was competing with kids almost a year older. She was fine in academics, but her social development was behind, and her fine motor skills -- particularly being able to write neatly -- as well. But it is true that after a couple of years, those differences do seem to disappear. In most cases, I can't tell who is older and who is younger, and if I guess, I guess wrong. Does anyone know if the practice is still on the rise? Or if it has leveled off or started to go down? Bizby |
#7
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red-shirting
Donna Metler wrote:
And then there's the other side-the child who may BE ready, but isn't allowed to move on because of the birthdate. If you even attempt to place your child in another age group, you're automatically a pushy, hothousing parent who wants to create some sort of little genius. We have an October cutoff here for kindergarten, and the result is that every single program uses that cutoff for age if they have an age cutoff at all. Seconded. DS has a late October birthday and was premature, so I was treating redshirting as a viable option, but now that it's turned out that his academic skills are probably advanced he's going to have to start kindergarden right before he turns 6, since the cutoff date in our new district is September 1. I'm thinking he'd do better with this year for preschool and next year for kindergarden... but it is no longer an option. -- C, mama to three year old nursling |
#8
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red-shirting
"toypup" wrote in message et... A significant number of kids in DS's class were red-shirted. They are normal kids whose parents wanted to give them a leg up. I hardly think this is fair. My oldest is now a senior in high school, so I've seen both ends of this. I started my daughter when she was eligible. She tested as ready and has done fine academically throughout her career. She has struggled on friends from time to time, due to her being on the young side in her class. (She turns 17 this month, so will start college at age 17...) But all in all it worked itself out. With 20/20 hindsight: Had I held her out a year and started her as a 5 year old in kindergarten: She would have had an extra year in dance on pointe, which would have given her an extra year to get the good parts in the local Ballet. If she were interested in sports, she would have had an extra year of whatever sport. She would have been less small going into Junior High and High school, but in retrospect she still would have probably been the smallest in her class. (She grew late, and is now average height for women, passed up many of her friends, and me...) She would have an extra year of driving at home, including over a year of driving with people in the car. Right now when she leaves for college she will have had an unrestricted driving license for 8 months. I worry a little she doesn't have enough experience, is probably going to walk away from driving for a few years, and might struggle to take it up again. On the up side: She was ready, and still is ready for everything. She spent last summer at University, taking a college course, and is more than ready to leave the nest. Being young helped her pick friends for their personalities and not looks/popularity. She has a truely great set of friends. (That might of happened for other reasons, but being on the immature side in Junior High certainly helped.) I see other kids from her grade,and their parents, struggling on the "adult but still at home" front. One moved out when she turned 18, at the beginning of senior year. Some felt they were so old starting high school that they should fit into an older crowd, and often the older crowd willing to take them was not what parents wish. I know of three young men from local, wonderful families with caring parents that are now, after drug intervention, in boarding schools. The scary thing is the older kids that are struggling are often the ones that were red-shirted because their parents felt they weren't ready at age 5. They were red-shirted, and now left behind by younger kids. But many kids do blossom when they are red-shirted, so how do you tell, at age 5, how your kids will do at age 13 among 11 and 12 year olds, or at age 18 among 16 and 17 year olds? It's a tough choice. |
#9
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red-shirting
"Rosalie B." wrote in message ... So I think it totally depends on the child, and it is also probably better evaluated by the parent and not by a some arbitrary system. I would blame the parents who put the child into the system early and without the skills that they need rather than the system. But I think they are in it early and without skills because their skills are being compared to kids who are a whole year older. That is my problem. I don't think they are too young at all, if compared with kids their own age. |
#10
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red-shirting
"toypup" wrote in message et... A significant number of kids in DS's class were red-shirted. They are normal kids whose parents wanted to give them a leg up. I hardly think this is fair. This is a huge problem IMO. I'm with you. I read all the studies and decided that I would send my children at the expected time. They were 5yrs5mos old. The peice of information I did not know, and did not factor into my decision, was that Hunter was the very youngest boy in his class. At his b-day party all the kids were nearly a full year older. We decided to have him repeat first grade - which is an even worse choice when you read the studies but I simply did not know what to do. He also struggles a great deal with reading so isn't typical. I felt that he would never be successful in school if I put him into second grade without being able to read. That year difference also made the social end of things very hard for him. The kids were nice but in a group it was painfully clear that Hunter was not at the same level of development. My school won't tell me how many entering kindy kids are 6yo versus 5yo. I freaked out and decided to red-shirt Luke. He doesn't have any of the academic concerns that Hunter struggles with but he is extremely shy (which is shocking considering is personality at home). They also told me to keep the two year spacing between them but that may have just been there way of saying - wait a year all the other kids are 6yo. It is a hard choice. I fear I may live to regret it when they are 18yo and still have a full year of highschool ahead I recently found out that my school is experimenting with a mixed 1st and 2nd grade. I'm hoping that if Luke seems to far ahead of his class we can go with that in first grade and then put him in 3rd grade the next year if that seems more appropriate. That class would not work for Hunter because the kids have to be able to work more independently then he is capable of...and catch on quickly etc. He needs a little more prompting and explanaition. I think once so many of the kids are red-shirted the teachers start to teach at a higher expectation, which compounds the issues for kids the 'correct' age. -- Nikki, mama to Hunter 4/99 Luke 4/01 Brock 4/06 Ben 4/06 DS is competing against children who are a whole year older than he. They are going to be 7 yo and in kindergarten. As DH said, that's an embarrassment. His sister was 7 yo when she started 3rd grade. DS is doing well against them, but some younger kids aren't faring as well. It makes the 4yo's feel like failures because they can't measure up to the 6 yo's. The teacher's and parent's expectations of normal 5 yo's abilities end up being skewed. I'm told the 4 yo's will catch up, but why should they start out feeling like they have to? Why should they be measured against someone who should be a whole year ahead? Are these parents fooling themselves into thinking they have the best and brightest kids in the class when in reality their kids are really behind? Can you all weigh in on this? It's a sore spot for me. Maybe I can be enlighted to the other side of this. If the kids are especially slow learners or something, I understand, but red-shirting an average kid? Like I said, it's not hurting DS, but it bothers me nonetheless, because I see the little ones struggling. |
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