What's it going to take?

We know there is hundreds of thousands of fathers out there that are being
abused by this system, yet we never hear anything about it. The general
public is aware of the system and think it's a good idea until they are
directly affected by this abusive system that cares nothing about the NCP's
well being.
Why do we allow such an abusive system to exist?

Why not try to change the system to be more fair and agreeable for everyone?
Perhaps changing it for the better is easier than eliminating it.

There is one major flaw in the philosophy of this system, Fathers are
assumed they will do anything to avoid paying money for their children.
That's utter Bull****!!!!!!!!

The thinking is everyone must suffer for the small percentage of absent
fathers that refuse to pay any money. Maybe they are refusing to pay any
money is because the rates are set too dam high and it's real easy to get
behind very fast.

They think that showing no mercy, understanding or forgiveness will motivate
NCP's to keep paying the extortionate rates at all costs. How wrong they
are!!!

CS rates are set far too high with no flexibility to fit the budget of a
NCP's current monthly income. Why should all NCP's be penalized for getting
layed off or having to take a lower paying wage? Maybe a small percentage
of absent fathers might do it to lower their CS payments, but doesn't that
reduce their quality of living too? If the payments were reasonable in the
first place, there wouldn't be a big motivation to change jobs and why get
penalized for making more money too? Making more money just means a better
ability to make payments on time. Does are car dealer care if you make
$30,000 or $50,000 when the payment is only $400/mth. There's less risk with
deliquent payments if an NCP makes more money than is required.

There needs to be a cap on these payments and a flexable payment plan that
fits the NCP's current monthly income, even when they get laid off. What's
the point of criminalizing a poor man for having no money? All the laws in
the world will not change our ability to earn a better living!

How can we go about changing this warped thinking and getting the
politicians to make changes to this rigid system that is doing more damage
than helping?

On Sun, 03 Dec 2006 19:31:22 GMT, "Dale"
wrote:

We know there is hundreds of thousands of fathers out there that are being
abused by this system, yet we never hear anything about it. The general
public is aware of the system and think it's a good idea until they are
directly affected by this abusive system that cares nothing about the NCP's
well being.
Why do we allow such an abusive system to exist?

Because politicians, being the bottomfeeders that they are, see it as
an easy way to get and keep their jobs. Until we make the public aware
of how sleazy the system is, the courts, lawyers and politicians will
continue perverting a justice system into a 'just us' business.

Why not try to change the system to be more fair and agreeable for everyone?
Perhaps changing it for the better is easier than eliminating it.

Many of us ARE. Out of the 100 or so guys where I work, about half are
caught up in the system. We educate the younger workers by simply
showing them our paystubs, our court cases and so on. Their
girlfriends HATE they fact that we are "poisoning" their minds by
showing them where they will end up if they aren't careful.

There is one major flaw in the philosophy of this system, Fathers are
assumed they will do anything to avoid paying money for their children.
That's utter Bull****!!!!!!!!

This is true. I'd even be willing to pay the damn money if I could get
custody of my kids. I want time with my kids, not the damn money!

The thinking is everyone must suffer for the small percentage of absent
fathers that refuse to pay any money. Maybe they are refusing to pay any
money is because the rates are set too dam high and it's real easy to get
behind very fast.

I noticed that too. Whenever I see one of those "Most wanted deadbeat"
posters that have some huge number that they owe, I can't help but
wonder how high was their support set in the first place to be able to
reach that number.

They think that showing no mercy, understanding or forgiveness will motivate
NCP's to keep paying the extortionate rates at all costs. How wrong they
are!!!

CS rates are set far too high with no flexibility to fit the budget of a
NCP's current monthly income. Why should all NCP's be penalized for getting
layed off or having to take a lower paying wage? Maybe a small percentage
of absent fathers might do it to lower their CS payments, but doesn't that
reduce their quality of living too? If the payments were reasonable in the
first place, there wouldn't be a big motivation to change jobs and why get
penalized for making more money too? Making more money just means a better
ability to make payments on time. Does are car dealer care if you make
$30,000 or $50,000 when the payment is only $400/mth. There's less risk with
deliquent payments if an NCP makes more money than is required.

There is also less chance of deliquency if fathers stay involved with
their kids!

There needs to be a cap on these payments and a flexable payment plan that
fits the NCP's current monthly income, even when they get laid off. What's
the point of criminalizing a poor man for having no money? All the laws in
the world will not change our ability to earn a better living!

Thats the problem with all these showboat "I'm tough on crime"
policies that politicians use to get elected.

How can we go about changing this warped thinking and getting the
politicians to make changes to this rigid system that is doing more damage
than helping?

Start by making it apply to everyone equally. Even now, the first
thought across my mind when I see an NCP mother is "What did she do to
lose custody of her kids?" because unless the mother really screws up,
the kids will be with her. The laws can be written gender neutral but
the final numbers show that the bias is still deeply entrenched with
the judges making the decisions.

"Dale" wrote in message
. net...
We know there is hundreds of thousands of fathers out there that are
being abused by this system, yet we never hear anything about it. The
general public is aware of the system and think it's a good idea until
they are directly affected by this abusive system that cares nothing
about the NCP's well being.
Why do we allow such an abusive system to exist?

It's difficult to change from the current thinking. Most people in the
US and other "free" countries enjoy a lifestyle that those in third
world countried can only dream of (lots of toys, HD TVs, 300+ TV
channels that prevent education, etc.). Few are willing to chance
changing the current conditions for fear of losing some of their toys or
comfort. When it affects most everyone, then and only then will change
happen. Much like the colonists did to Britain a couple hundred years
ago.


Why not try to change the system to be more fair and agreeable for
everyone?
Perhaps changing it for the better is easier than eliminating it.

Either will likely not happen. The first rule of any government agency
(board or bureau) is self-preservation. By repeating the status quo on
an unending schedule, government flunkies keep their cushy jobs which
have little danger of being shipped overseas like the average private
sector employee.


There is one major flaw in the philosophy of this system, Fathers are
assumed they will do anything to avoid paying money for their
children. That's utter Bull****!!!!!!!!

The propaganda and innuendo drives the machine. Truth be damned.


The thinking is everyone must suffer for the small percentage of
absent fathers that refuse to pay any money. Maybe they are refusing
to pay any money is because the rates are set too dam high and it's
real easy to get behind very fast.

The rates are too high and they are correlated to the rewards for the
states that utilize the system. What is most telling is that decent
fathers are quite willing to support their children during the marriage
and suddenly, on the word of his soon-to-be ex, he is a low-life who
cares nothing for his children. **** like this doesn't happen in real
life. If a father chooses not to care for his children, it doesn't
happen suddenly and it doesn't happen solely due to divorce.


They think that showing no mercy, understanding or forgiveness will
motivate NCP's to keep paying the extortionate rates at all costs.
How wrong they are!!!

Draconian methods rarely, if ever, work. What is happeninng is simply
propigation of the system for it's own sake, certainly not for the
children.


CS rates are set far too high with no flexibility to fit the budget of
a NCP's current monthly income. Why should all NCP's be penalized for
getting layed off or having to take a lower paying wage? Maybe a
small percentage of absent fathers might do it to lower their CS
payments, but doesn't that reduce their quality of living too? If the
payments were reasonable in the first place, there wouldn't be a big
motivation to change jobs and why get penalized for making more money
too? Making more money just means a better ability to make payments on
time. Does are car dealer care if you make $30,000 or $50,000 when the
payment is only $400/mth. There's less risk with deliquent payments if
an NCP makes more money than is required.

Why are there such things as NCPs, or *secondary* parents who are
removed from the kith and kin of everyday life of their children, based
on the fact they are divorced to begin with? Parents who want to be
parents should be allowed to follow their natural right (God-given, if
you choose) to be a parent. Most people think the Constitution gives
parents the right to be parents. It doesn't. It *guarantees* them the
ability to keep their naturally given rights... except sometimes.
Without being a danger to the child, the government does not have the
right to deny a parent the ability to be the parent they *choose* to be.
They only have the weapons to illegally and improperly force others to
abide by their demands.


There needs to be a cap on these payments and a flexable payment plan
that fits the NCP's current monthly income, even when they get laid
off. What's the point of criminalizing a poor man for having no
money? All the laws in the world will not change our ability to earn
a better living!

The current thinking in the US is that laws are necessary to control
everything. This has been developing for over 100 years. Fact is, laws
are being created to thwart citizen's natural rights.


How can we go about changing this warped thinking and getting the
politicians to make changes to this rigid system that is doing more
damage than helping?

Without major conflagration? Not possible, IMO. There's just too much
money, too many cushy jobs, too much over-blown self-importance involved
to get people to do the right things for the right reasons. Remove the
rewards for bad behavior and much of the bad behavior will evaporate.
Phil #3

wrote in

Why not try to change the system to be more fair and agreeable for
everyone?
Perhaps changing it for the better is easier than eliminating it.

Many of us ARE. Out of the 100 or so guys where I work, about half are
caught up in the system. We educate the younger workers by simply
showing them our paystubs, our court cases and so on. Their
girlfriends HATE they fact that we are "poisoning" their minds by
showing them where they will end up if they aren't careful.


Yes, it has reached a point where young men have to protect themself, even
to the point where marriage and starting a family is not an option.

It's already happened in Britain where single life is the norm, with no
plans or desire for marriage.

"Dale" wrote in

Yes, it has reached a point where young men have to protect themself, even
to the point where marriage and starting a family is not an option.

It's already happened in Britain where single life is the norm, with no
plans or desire for marriage.

Check this out, now the government is having to spend money to try promote
marriage! LOL

http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20061204/cm_csm/emarriage

You ask "what's it going to take to change the minds of a nation that
have for too long accepted the single mother as the ONLY one that can
raise a child?" Not what you said but what really is the question that
needs to be asked.

It will take one court case or one state to pass a law the guarentees
equal physical and legal custody between two fit parents.

The court case is going right now and is at the US Supreme Court (
Galluzzo Vs. Champaign County, et el). If this case is heard by the
high court the issue of the rights of fit parents to raise their
children in an equal manner will be decided.

Until the High Court decides what the true rights of fit parents are,
we will continue with the current deprevation of civil rights that
happens every day in our nations family court system.

Ray
www.pacegroup.org
I am a divorced parent, not unfit.

"Dale" wrote in message
. net...
We know there is hundreds of thousands of fathers out there that are being
abused by this system, yet we never hear anything about it. The general
public is aware of the system and think it's a good idea until they are
directly affected by this abusive system that cares nothing about the
NCP's
well being.
Why do we allow such an abusive system to exist?

Why not try to change the system to be more fair and agreeable for
everyone?
Perhaps changing it for the better is easier than eliminating it.

There is one major flaw in the philosophy of this system, Fathers are
assumed they will do anything to avoid paying money for their children.
That's utter Bull****!!!!!!!!

The thinking is everyone must suffer for the small percentage of absent
fathers that refuse to pay any money. Maybe they are refusing to pay any
money is because the rates are set too dam high and it's real easy to get
behind very fast.

They think that showing no mercy, understanding or forgiveness will
motivate
NCP's to keep paying the extortionate rates at all costs. How wrong they
are!!!

CS rates are set far too high with no flexibility to fit the budget of a
NCP's current monthly income. Why should all NCP's be penalized for
getting
layed off or having to take a lower paying wage? Maybe a small percentage
of absent fathers might do it to lower their CS payments, but doesn't that
reduce their quality of living too? If the payments were reasonable in the
first place, there wouldn't be a big motivation to change jobs and why get
penalized for making more money too? Making more money just means a better
ability to make payments on time. Does are car dealer care if you make
$30,000 or $50,000 when the payment is only $400/mth. There's less risk
with
deliquent payments if an NCP makes more money than is required.

There needs to be a cap on these payments and a flexable payment plan that
fits the NCP's current monthly income, even when they get laid off.
What's
the point of criminalizing a poor man for having no money? All the laws
in
the world will not change our ability to earn a better living!

How can we go about changing this warped thinking and getting the
politicians to make changes to this rigid system that is doing more damage
than helping?

The above is an example of someone who actually advocates the "child
support" industry. On the surface, the argument looks convincing, but
further examination will reveal that it is nothing more than support for an
industry that should not exist in the first place. Saying that we should
"change" it is akin to saying that we should place a limit on the amount
that bank robbers can take. If I stand alone on this position, then so be
it; but I know that I present the TRUTH!

"paceakron" wrote in message
oups.com...
You ask "what's it going to take to change the minds of a nation that
have for too long accepted the single mother as the ONLY one that can
raise a child?" Not what you said but what really is the question
that
needs to be asked.

It will take one court case or one state to pass a law the guarentees
equal physical and legal custody between two fit parents.

Even that won't be enough. Judges will retain the power to decide on a
case-by-case basis that fathers are unworthy. To overturn it would
require tons of cash, which most divorced(ing) men do not have. If that
isn't enough, there's always the false charges of abuse and/or sexual
predation. That one works very well, especially ex parte.


The court case is going right now and is at the US Supreme Court (
Galluzzo Vs. Champaign County, et el). If this case is heard by the
high court the issue of the rights of fit parents to raise their
children in an equal manner will be decided.

Until the High Court decides what the true rights of fit parents are,
we will continue with the current deprevation of civil rights that
happens every day in our nations family court system.

Keep in mind that the SCOTUS once ruled that segregation was ok then
later ruled that it wasn't.
They are political apologists who rule based on their own (and other,
politically correct) prejudices.
Phil #3


Ray
www.pacegroup.org
I am a divorced parent, not unfit.

"Chris" wrote in

How can we go about changing this warped thinking and getting the
politicians to make changes to this rigid system that is doing more
damage
than helping?

The above is an example of someone who actually advocates the "child
support" industry. On the surface, the argument looks convincing, but
further examination will reveal that it is nothing more than support for
an
industry that should not exist in the first place. Saying that we should
"change" it is akin to saying that we should place a limit on the amount
that bank robbers can take. If I stand alone on this position, then so be
it; but I know that I present the TRUTH!

Yes Chris, I agree you represent the truth, I represent reality!

At this stage of the game, it's too late to completely elminate the system
as the politicians are not about being right or wrong and will not act
unless there is some benefit for themselves.
All we can hope for is to get controls on this system, so that the abuses
stop.

Lets start with setting CS rates that help with the basics and get rid of
this notion that little Johnny can have whatever he desires. Lets design a
system that is flexable to the NCP's income ability, so if jobs change or
get interupted, there is no penalty for lifes's circumstances. It was
paranoid thinking that designed the system, lets get some rational thinking
to change it.

Yes we all recognize the system stinks and the stench that reaks from the
people who avocate it, but it's easier & quicker to sell small changes that
make it more bearable for everyone who is in the system today.

I may give a robber my wallet and the keys to my car, but there is no cash
in the wallet and the car is insured, so what have they taken from me?

"Phil" wrote in

Until the High Court decides what the true rights of fit parents are,
we will continue with the current deprevation of civil rights that
happens every day in our nations family court system.

Keep in mind that the SCOTUS once ruled that segregation was ok then later
ruled that it wasn't.
They are political apologists who rule based on their own (and other,
politically correct) prejudices.
Phil #3

Only when their own daughter is accused, will they outlaw the Witch Burning!

Only when we learn that the political system is not about being right or
wrong and start addressing issues that are in the best interest of the
politicians, will we see any change.

You have to make it totally uncomfortable for a politician to support the
present CS system, only when we have a unified voice, will we see any change
to the present CS system. Until that day happens, the system will run amuck
and the politicians keep their jobs by ignoring it.