Stubborn 4 year old boy.

Anne Rogers wrote:

I have a suspicion with the speech therapy you and maybe the therapist
too, expected too much.

Alternatively, or in addition, if the kid walked in
after all sorts of talk and preparation about how it was
VERY IMPORTANT for him to participate and do what he's supposed
to in the evaluation, he might have been set up to be
oppositional. Some kids have a weird kind of perfectionism
where as soon as they figure out something is a big deal to
their parents, they decide that they can't afford to "fail"
at it. So, they figure dealing with the consequences and
making you angry are better than disappointing you by failing
at the VERY IMPORTANT task. It's sort of a kid's version of the
best defense is a good offense.

If this is part of what's going on, escalating consequences
are going to make things much worse, not better. You have to
downplay the event ahead of time, and believe me, these kids
are extremely sensitive to your signals. You don't have to tell
them in so many words that something is important. They'll figure
it out from body language, from how and when you bring up the
subject, they'll listen in to your talking on the phone or to
friends, they'll clue in based on how you dress (or how you dress
them) for the appointment, or any number of little clues.

Also, this is something you want to get an understanding
of early, because it can *really* create issues in school. These
are the kids who'd rather sandbag and lower expectations than
perform to their ability level. They'd rather procrastinate and
lie about the test so that they don't study for it than study
hard and fail to achieve a top score. They'll even do assignments
and fail to turn them in. You have to find a way to establish
a level of trust between the two of you that permits failure
or they will fight tooth and nail. You have to teach them some
coping skills to deal with the anxiety they feel about possibly
"failing."

Best wishes,
Ericka

On Feb 19, 11:39*am, "Stephanie" wrote:

My son is NOT compliant. FAR from it. And if you teach him the how, why,
what of behavior, you wind up with someone whose behavior does not need to
be maintained with punishment but a person with genuine empathy and caring..

Children need parents to guide them because they know less about the
world and are less able to reason. Often, they may only understand the
reasons for their parents' rules many years later. Good habits precede
moral reasoning. Our 2yo brushes his teeth because we tell him to or
because he sees his brother doing so, not because he wants to avoid
cavities.

You wind up with a person who is responsible on their own. Someone who can
make good decisions on their own. Obviously not every time. But the notion
that you are going to teach someone something with hitting has never made
any sense to me. I *remember* what I was thinking when I got spanked. Not
that what I did was wrong, but what was just done to me was wrong. Instead
of learnign the right or wrong and why, I learned not to trust my parents
and to hide from them.

I was spanked fewer than ten times growing up, for reasons that I
understood at the time, such as smoking a cigarette offered by an
acquaintance. I don't hold these incidents against my parents, and I
did not repeat the behaviors that provoked the punishments.

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 19, 11:39 am, "Stephanie" wrote:

My son is NOT compliant. FAR from it. And if you teach him the how,
why, what of behavior, you wind up with someone whose behavior does
not need to be maintained with punishment but a person with genuine
empathy and caring.

Children need parents to guide them because they know less about the
world and are less able to reason. Often, they may only understand the
reasons for their parents' rules many years later. Good habits precede
moral reasoning. Our 2yo brushes his teeth because we tell him to or
because he sees his brother doing so, not because he wants to avoid
cavities.



This is true though it is not a very good reason to hit.

You wind up with a person who is responsible on their own. Someone
who can make good decisions on their own. Obviously not every time.
But the notion that you are going to teach someone something with
hitting has never made any sense to me. I *remember* what I was
thinking when I got spanked. Not that what I did was wrong, but what
was just done to me was wrong. Instead of learnign the right or
wrong and why, I learned not to trust my parents and to hide from
them.

I was spanked fewer than ten times growing up, for reasons that I
understood at the time, such as smoking a cigarette offered by an
acquaintance. I don't hold these incidents against my parents, and I
did not repeat the behaviors that provoked the punishments.

I don't hold it against my parents either. They were doing what they thought
was right. However, it did not have the intended result of educating me
about the evil of my ways. I cannot see how hitting does anything but change
the subject.

"Dom" wrote in message
...
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do.

One of my boys is challenging as well. You've gotten a lot of good replies.
My thoughts are

1) Spanking won't work. As a matter of fact any physical touch at all
amplifies the tantrum in my house. That is hard for me because my other son
responds very well to a hand on the shoulder to get him moving in the right
direction. He prefers it and gets crabby with all the verbal instruction so
I'm always goofing up with the other one.

2) He will likely remain challenging, just in different ways, as he gets
older. At least that is true in my case. He's almost 7yo.

3) Good parents have challenging kids. This is a good book for both that
and to see your child in a more positive light (which is sometimes hard)
http://www.amazon.com/Raising-Your-S...51109&sr= 8-1
I'm going to re-read it.

4) Are you a step dad? Why do I think that?? Anyway - if so that has an
entire new set of issues to deal with unless you've been with him since he
was a baby. Any plan you come up with must take that into account.

5) If you feel his behavior is really really on the outside scope of normal
(does he have similar issues at school?) then talk to your doctor. My son
is fine at school so I know his behavior is within normal limits. If he was
having meltdowns and big issues in all environments with all people, I'd
talk to his doc.

6) He might do better for evaluations if he goes in with the therapist on
his own. I sent my son on his own but was able to watch through a 2-way
mirror.

good luck!

--
Nikki, mama to
Hunter 4/99
Luke 4/01
Brock 4/06
Ben 4/06

Wow!

Thanks for all the responses overnight. Yes I am his stepdad (or I
will be). His own father is loving but is more concerned with being a
friend than a parent, that is when he participates at all. We
occaisonally use spanking as a punishment, but only if they are trying
to impale each other with a broomstick-come lightsaber, or eyegouging
etc. And this is only to shock them out of the situation so we can
deliver a more appropriate punishment. I feel bad after spanking
them, and I try to avoid it. I'm becominig quite good at reading the
tone of an argument from another room, and generally know when to step
in. We try to let the boys resolve thier own differences, and this is
generally successful about 75% of the time. There are some
differences that are beyond them just yet, but they are getting
better.

For severe tantrums, I've found the most effective management has been
to carry him to his room and leave him there. After a few minutes he
calms down, and will then come back out, at which point we try and
talk to him about his feelings and behaviour. Trying to calm him or
speaking to him before this gets no response. However I'm now keen to
try some of the calming techniques discussed earlier. The breathing
activities sound like lots of fun.

Dominic.

On Feb 19, 11:35*am, "Stephanie" wrote:
Beliavsky wrote:
You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it seems you
have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a child for
severe misbehavior will have bad long-term consequences. Some research
supporting this belief is at http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/.

I would ask myself, if my child were severly misbehaving... WHY? Children
are not born with a desire to be jerks.

You think like Rousseau. Another view of human nature is that children
are born little savages that need to be civilized by their parents.
Conservative Christians would talk of "original sin", but one can be
an atheist and have a similar philosophy.

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 19, 11:35 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
Beliavsky wrote:
You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it seems you
have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a child for
severe misbehavior will have bad long-term consequences. Some
research supporting this belief is at
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/.

I would ask myself, if my child were severly misbehaving... WHY?
Children are not born with a desire to be jerks.

You think like Rousseau. Another view of human nature is that children
are born little savages that need to be civilized by their parents.
Conservative Christians would talk of "original sin", but one can be
an atheist and have a similar philosophy.


One would be wrong.

"Stephanie" wrote in
:

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 19, 11:35 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
Beliavsky wrote:
You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so
it seems you
have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a
child for severe misbehavior will have bad long-term
consequences. Some research supporting this belief is at
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/.

I would ask myself, if my child were severly
misbehaving... WHY? Children are not born with a desire
to be jerks.

You think like Rousseau. Another view of human nature is
that children are born little savages that need to be
civilized by their parents. Conservative Christians would
talk of "original sin", but one can be an atheist and have
a similar philosophy.


One would be wrong.

one would have to have a severe disconnect from reality to
even entertain the notion. just being around children should
dispel that.
besides, i thought "original sin" was a Catholic thing.
lee sin is a social construct
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.

On Wed, 20 Feb 2008 02:13:41 +0000 (UTC), enigma wrote:

"Stephanie" wrote in
:

Beliavsky wrote:
On Feb 19, 11:35 am, "Stephanie" wrote:
Beliavsky wrote:
You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so
it seems you
have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a
child for severe misbehavior will have bad long-term
consequences. Some research supporting this belief is at
http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/.

I would ask myself, if my child were severly
misbehaving... WHY? Children are not born with a desire
to be jerks.

You think like Rousseau. Another view of human nature is
that children are born little savages that need to be
civilized by their parents. Conservative Christians would
talk of "original sin", but one can be an atheist and have
a similar philosophy.


One would be wrong.

one would have to have a severe disconnect from reality to
even entertain the notion. just being around children should
dispel that.
besides, i thought "original sin" was a Catholic thing.
lee sin is a social construct

I think it's a ridiculous idea myself, but I know plenty of people who
believe that.

On Feb 19, 4:27 pm, Beliavsky wrote:


Another view of human nature is that children
are born little savages that need to be civilized by their parents.
Conservative Christians would talk of "original sin", but one can be
an atheist and have a similar philosophy.

I know people who hold this view. A lot of them don't really enjoy
parenting. Easy to see why.

It doesn't strike me as a particularly civilized, or effective, to
think of children as "other." In my experience, kids respond better
when you treat them as people rather than alien beings or wild
animals. It does take awhile for them to learn the specifics of
living in a community with others, yes, but I've found kids generally
want to please adults who take the time to engage them.

Lori