Choices, choices, choices -- but only for women

"TeacherMama" wrote in message
om...
Mel Gamble wrote in message
...
Below...

TeacherMama wrote:

Dealing with an ADHD/ODD child is difficult under the best of
circumstances. You are correct in your statement that consistency is
of key importance. In my classroom, I make it clear what choices are
acceptable, and the consequences of both acceptable and unacceptable
choices. If the child chooses outside of the acceptable area, the
promised consequences will follow, as the night, the day. The idea is
not punishment--it is to establish that choices bring predictable
results--and it is to help the ADHD/ODD child begin to learn self
discipline. I don't think that Ronni is punishing her son based on her
anger. "Now you're making me mad, do you need a time out" seems to be
the words she uses consistently to help him reevaluate his choices.

But that makes the "acceptableness" of his actions dependent on whether
mom is getting mad - makes his choices grey instead of black-and-white.
It may not be a totally wrong thing for her to do, but it certainly
makes it more difficult for the boy to see the cause-and-effect results
of his actions and the consequences if they are "wrong" actions.

In my classroom, I always say "I am not happy with your choices." This
gives the child a chance to change his choice before the inevitable
consequence falls.

Why not "(child's name), do you think (whatever action) is a good choice
or can you think of a more positive choice?"

Actually, Mel, I do have a reason for wording it the way I do. I want
the child to recognize their unwise choice. If I always tell them
what action I want them to change, they are not learning the valuable
lesson of stopping and thinking about their actions for themselves. It
would be far easier for me to say "Don't do A, do B or C instead."
But the whole purpose is to create a pattern where the child stops,
thinks, and chooses better--at the moment guided from the outside,
but, eventually, guided from the inside.


You mentioned in an earlier posting that environment plays a role in
working with ADHD children. Of course it does.

Not sure that I made that statement. What I did state was that I think
WAY too many kids are displaying inappropriate behavior that is a
reaction to environment - kids who would be displaying appropriate
behavior if their environment was different - but being diagnosed as
having a chemical problem that requires medication. I know this happens
for a fact. I've watched a perfectly decent little boy's environment
change drastically and within less than a year he was on "meds"...and
mom was getting that extra "disability" check every month.

And it helps if
everyone involved with the child in a supervisory way is on the same
page and uses the same consequences. But even the best environment
will not "cure" a truly ADHD/ODD child.

No argument there, just with the percentage of "diagnosed" ADHD/ODD
cases that are a result of environment and the attempt at treating them
by changing the kid instead of changing the environment.

The child still needs time to
internalize the cpoing skills that will help him deal with his
difficulties.

One of the problems faced by those who are dealing with true ADHD
children is the popularity of the term. I have had parents bring their
little darling to my classroom, explaining that he is ADHD, but the
doctor doesn't want to give him medicine. Then when the child acts up
to the point that I bring the parents in, they say "But we *told* you
he is ADHD!" As if that gives him leave to do anything he wants
without no consequence.

That's what I'm trying to say. There are far too many adults ready to
holler "ADHD" because it's much simpler to shove a pill down junior's
throat twice a day than it is to go through the difficulty of changing
his behavior by changing their own.

I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!

AMEN to that!! They are too quick to medicate these children with
stimulants! My son shows a HUGE improvement on his meds and I am standing my
ground that he does need meds to succeed in school, BUT I do wish I wouldn't
have been so quick to agree to put him on the meds until I had time to do
more research myself. My neice is being evaluated in the next few weeks. My
experiences with my son and the other children I met at the hospital when my
son was in...I don't think she is ADHD...I think she is being a kid and
exploring their world (maybe a little louder than everyone else) and she is
doing fine in school. A's B's and a C here and there where my son without
meds would get D's and F's -- if he even finished the work. She is nothing
like any ADHD child I ever met, but I am also not a doctor. But yes, they
shouldnt be so quick to medicate these children. I fought myself about
medicating my son for months. There is a huge improvement and I am glad we
found somehting to help him (especially in school).

Ronni

"TeacherMama" wrote
...............................
I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!
==
My cynicism begs: Do you think schools put kids in special programs
just to increase federal funds for their schools or to prevent having
federal funds reduced because they used less than awarded?
==

"TeacherMama" wrote
...............................
I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!
==
My cynicism begs: Do you think schools put kids in special programs
just to increase federal funds for their schools or to prevent having
federal funds reduced because they used less than awarded?
==

Bob Whiteside wrote in message
link.net...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Forgive me for piggybacking here..... I have not read this thread
totally
but I was wondering Bob..... where can one get local statistics to see
how
the county I deal with rates overall?

I am not aware of states tracking local collection statistics. If the
other
states are anything like my state (Oregon) the CS Accounting Unit is a
statewide group that is located in the state capital. The CS
modifications
that are done locally on non-TANF cases are on a contract basis where the
local DA's are technically working under contract for the state Attorney
General. The TANF cases are managed by deputy AG's. IOW, modifications
are
also managed on a statewide basis under the direction of the state Justice
Department.



I see.... thanks.

Bob Whiteside wrote in message
link.net...

"Tiffany" wrote in message
...

Forgive me for piggybacking here..... I have not read this thread
totally
but I was wondering Bob..... where can one get local statistics to see
how
the county I deal with rates overall?

I am not aware of states tracking local collection statistics. If the
other
states are anything like my state (Oregon) the CS Accounting Unit is a
statewide group that is located in the state capital. The CS
modifications
that are done locally on non-TANF cases are on a contract basis where the
local DA's are technically working under contract for the state Attorney
General. The TANF cases are managed by deputy AG's. IOW, modifications
are
also managed on a statewide basis under the direction of the state Justice
Department.



I see.... thanks.

Mel Gamble wrote in message
...
Below...

TeacherMama wrote:

Dealing with an ADHD/ODD child is difficult under the best of
circumstances. You are correct in your statement that consistency is
of key importance. In my classroom, I make it clear what choices are
acceptable, and the consequences of both acceptable and unacceptable
choices. If the child chooses outside of the acceptable area, the
promised consequences will follow, as the night, the day. The idea is
not punishment--it is to establish that choices bring predictable
results--and it is to help the ADHD/ODD child begin to learn self
discipline. I don't think that Ronni is punishing her son based on her
anger. "Now you're making me mad, do you need a time out" seems to be
the words she uses consistently to help him reevaluate his choices.

But that makes the "acceptableness" of his actions dependent on whether
mom is getting mad - makes his choices grey instead of black-and-white.
It may not be a totally wrong thing for her to do, but it certainly
makes it more difficult for the boy to see the cause-and-effect results
of his actions and the consequences if they are "wrong" actions.

In my classroom, I always say "I am not happy with your choices." This
gives the child a chance to change his choice before the inevitable
consequence falls.

Why not "(child's name), do you think (whatever action) is a good choice
or can you think of a more positive choice?"

You mentioned in an earlier posting that environment plays a role in
working with ADHD children. Of course it does.

Not sure that I made that statement. What I did state was that I think
WAY too many kids are displaying inappropriate behavior that is a
reaction to environment - kids who would be displaying appropriate
behavior if their environment was different - but being diagnosed as
having a chemical problem that requires medication. I know this happens
for a fact. I've watched a perfectly decent little boy's environment
change drastically and within less than a year he was on "meds"...and
mom was getting that extra "disability" check every month.

And it helps if
everyone involved with the child in a supervisory way is on the same
page and uses the same consequences. But even the best environment
will not "cure" a truly ADHD/ODD child.

No argument there, just with the percentage of "diagnosed" ADHD/ODD
cases that are a result of environment and the attempt at treating them
by changing the kid instead of changing the environment.

The child still needs time to
internalize the cpoing skills that will help him deal with his
difficulties.

One of the problems faced by those who are dealing with true ADHD
children is the popularity of the term. I have had parents bring their
little darling to my classroom, explaining that he is ADHD, but the
doctor doesn't want to give him medicine. Then when the child acts up
to the point that I bring the parents in, they say "But we *told* you
he is ADHD!" As if that gives him leave to do anything he wants
without no consequence.

That's what I'm trying to say. There are far too many adults ready to
holler "ADHD" because it's much simpler to shove a pill down junior's
throat twice a day than it is to go through the difficulty of changing
his behavior by changing their own.

Mel Gamble



Wow....I must agree with you Mel. Though there are the situation where the
child isn't in a environment advocating such behavior but has ADHD/ADD, in
my experience (and I am dealing with parents who talk about their home lives
and kids and husbands) it is highly an environmental issue. From things such
as diet, the parents relationships, that the parents are highly medicated or
have substance abuse issues, ect. Do you think that these people truly don't
see what is in front of them or that doctors have so many people so
brainwashed?

T

Mel Gamble wrote in message
...
Below...

TeacherMama wrote:

Dealing with an ADHD/ODD child is difficult under the best of
circumstances. You are correct in your statement that consistency is
of key importance. In my classroom, I make it clear what choices are
acceptable, and the consequences of both acceptable and unacceptable
choices. If the child chooses outside of the acceptable area, the
promised consequences will follow, as the night, the day. The idea is
not punishment--it is to establish that choices bring predictable
results--and it is to help the ADHD/ODD child begin to learn self
discipline. I don't think that Ronni is punishing her son based on her
anger. "Now you're making me mad, do you need a time out" seems to be
the words she uses consistently to help him reevaluate his choices.

But that makes the "acceptableness" of his actions dependent on whether
mom is getting mad - makes his choices grey instead of black-and-white.
It may not be a totally wrong thing for her to do, but it certainly
makes it more difficult for the boy to see the cause-and-effect results
of his actions and the consequences if they are "wrong" actions.

In my classroom, I always say "I am not happy with your choices." This
gives the child a chance to change his choice before the inevitable
consequence falls.

Why not "(child's name), do you think (whatever action) is a good choice
or can you think of a more positive choice?"

You mentioned in an earlier posting that environment plays a role in
working with ADHD children. Of course it does.

Not sure that I made that statement. What I did state was that I think
WAY too many kids are displaying inappropriate behavior that is a
reaction to environment - kids who would be displaying appropriate
behavior if their environment was different - but being diagnosed as
having a chemical problem that requires medication. I know this happens
for a fact. I've watched a perfectly decent little boy's environment
change drastically and within less than a year he was on "meds"...and
mom was getting that extra "disability" check every month.

And it helps if
everyone involved with the child in a supervisory way is on the same
page and uses the same consequences. But even the best environment
will not "cure" a truly ADHD/ODD child.

No argument there, just with the percentage of "diagnosed" ADHD/ODD
cases that are a result of environment and the attempt at treating them
by changing the kid instead of changing the environment.

The child still needs time to
internalize the cpoing skills that will help him deal with his
difficulties.

One of the problems faced by those who are dealing with true ADHD
children is the popularity of the term. I have had parents bring their
little darling to my classroom, explaining that he is ADHD, but the
doctor doesn't want to give him medicine. Then when the child acts up
to the point that I bring the parents in, they say "But we *told* you
he is ADHD!" As if that gives him leave to do anything he wants
without no consequence.

That's what I'm trying to say. There are far too many adults ready to
holler "ADHD" because it's much simpler to shove a pill down junior's
throat twice a day than it is to go through the difficulty of changing
his behavior by changing their own.

Mel Gamble



Wow....I must agree with you Mel. Though there are the situation where the
child isn't in a environment advocating such behavior but has ADHD/ADD, in
my experience (and I am dealing with parents who talk about their home lives
and kids and husbands) it is highly an environmental issue. From things such
as diet, the parents relationships, that the parents are highly medicated or
have substance abuse issues, ect. Do you think that these people truly don't
see what is in front of them or that doctors have so many people so
brainwashed?

T

"Gini" wrote in message
...

"TeacherMama" wrote
..............................
I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!
==
My cynicism begs: Do you think schools put kids in special programs
just to increase federal funds for their schools or to prevent having
federal funds reduced because they used less than awarded?
==

I wouldn't doubt it. 2 local schools are threatening to shut down the school
in February for 'lack of funds'.

"Gini" wrote in message
...

"TeacherMama" wrote
..............................
I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!
==
My cynicism begs: Do you think schools put kids in special programs
just to increase federal funds for their schools or to prevent having
federal funds reduced because they used less than awarded?
==

I wouldn't doubt it. 2 local schools are threatening to shut down the school
in February for 'lack of funds'.

"Gini" wrote in message
...

"TeacherMama" wrote
..............................
I worked at a school one time where the parents every child who did
not fit nicely into the "good student" mode, or displayed "over active
tendencies", were requested to take the child for an "evaluation" for
ADHD. You should have seen how many of those children were on
medication! (This was a very wealthy area, and a private school) I say
we should go back to letting kids be kids, give them the opportunity
to be active in the exploration of their world, instead of just
automatons in desks--and save the meds for those who *really* need it!
==
My cynicism begs: Do you think schools put kids in special programs
just to increase federal funds for their schools or to prevent having
federal funds reduced because they used less than awarded?
==

Both. In my state the funding formulas allow additional money going to the
schools based on extra weighting of children with special needs. Where the
"normal" student counts as one, additions are made for special education
(1.00), English language learners (.50), pregnant and parenting (1.00),
Poverty (.25), and Foster care/neglected and delinquent (.25).

So where a "normal" student (1.00) is worth about $5,500 per year in state
funds, a children with ADHD (2.00) is worth $11,000. The more children the
schools can get diagnosed with ADHD, the more funding they can get from the
state/federal funds budget.

The other scam is for the schools to "recruit" children with Hispanic
surnames for their English as a Second Language Program. Children who speak
perfectly good English, but live in homes where Spanish is spoken, are then
counted with a 1.50 factor making them worth $8,250 per year.