Why have kids?

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
wrote:

Any advice? Any ideas? I've been lurking here for *cough* several
years, so it's not like I have no idea what to expect. And I'm
aware that a lot of people will say "when in doubt, don't".
But I suspect that if we did have kids, we'd enjoy it - if
only because most people seem to.

Believe me, that can be a very inaccurate perception.
When they do anonymous surveys, a scarily high percentage of
people say if they could go back in time, they wouldn't do
it again even though they'd never wish their kids away once
they've got them.

Still pondering the rest of your post ( thanks! ) but
are these surveys available somewhere? The only "data"
that ever seems to come up is the notorious Ann Landers write-in
poll.

Also I'm wondering if it's possible to isolate the
percentage that regret having children due soley to the
stresses of parenting, and not because other
issues were aggravated. I'm thinking of aquaintances who
had a planned child under very unstable job and money conditions -
figuring it would all "work out somehow". Three years
later they still struggle to keep above water,
and may conceviably regret their decision, but it
doesn't necessarily reflect anything on how I
would experience parenting.



turnip

---

wrote:

Still pondering the rest of your post ( thanks! ) but
are these surveys available somewhere? The only "data"
that ever seems to come up is the notorious Ann Landers write-in
poll.

Sorry, I couldn't turn it up tonight online.
I could find lots on the impact on marriage, and
lots on regrets regarding sterilization and all sorts
of other irrelevant stuff, and references to assorted
tantalizing studies, but couldn't drum up the
studies themselves!

Also I'm wondering if it's possible to isolate the
percentage that regret having children due soley to the
stresses of parenting, and not because other
issues were aggravated. I'm thinking of aquaintances who
had a planned child under very unstable job and money conditions -
figuring it would all "work out somehow". Three years
later they still struggle to keep above water,
and may conceviably regret their decision, but it
doesn't necessarily reflect anything on how I
would experience parenting.

I seriously doubt that the existing
research would be anywhere near as helpful as
one would like them to be. I think that finding
appropriate operational definitions for the terms
involved would be *really* hard, plus it's *such*
a taboo to suggest that one regrets a decision to
parent.
I think ultimately, you just have to make
a decision based on the best thinking you can muster.
I did run across one study that said that the more
information one sought during the process of making
a decision to parent, the happier one was with the
decision if one chose to go ahead and parent. (Oddly,
those who chose not to parent were less happy with
their decision the more information they sought out
during the process!) If you have the resources
and aren't too naive about it, you should certainly
have the ability to do a credible job of parenting
if that's what you want to do. I think of it more
like making a decision to climb Mt. Everest. It's
not going to make you happier or wealthier or
more successful in worldly terms. In fact, it
might do just the opposite. It's an adventure.
It changes you as a person. *How* it changes
you has to do with how you rise to the challenge ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

toto wrote:

On 7 Feb 2006 17:03:37 -0800, "Mike"
wrote:

Hello All,

I am 37 years old and have never wanted children. My loving hubby of 5
years agreed to no children when we married. Now after over 5 years of
marriage, he is beginning to rethink his position. Specifically, he is
concerned about what our life will be in our 50's/60's/70's when we do
not have children.

This is not a good reason to have children.

You may want to point out to him that there is a significant risk
that you might have disabled children and that this would mean
that in your 50s/60s/70s you would still be caring for the child
who might not be able to help you.

My niece had her first when she was 40. I'm not sure that the child
is quite right - I haven't seen him but my mom says he doesn't talk at
all and he is 2. Pregnancy and child bearing is significantly
riskier even in this day and age for older mothers

My dd#3 just had her third child and she is 38 almost 39. She almost
died during delivery (she had a C-section - the doctor said that he
wouldn't do VBAC which she had for child 2 without a lot of input and
records from her doctor in MD), and then had to have a second
operation afterwards because of some screw up with the C-section.

It's not a good idea to have children in order to have them care
for you in your old age as life is not that predictable.

It is also not a given that you will be ABLE to get pregnant and have
a child right away even if you do decide that you want to.

I am the oldest of 5 girls and spent a significant portion of my
childhood/ teen years watching my younger sisters ( 7yrs, 10 yrs, 15
yrs and 21 yrs younger than I). I adore my sisters but understand the
amount of work involved and do not want to go down that path again.

I love my husband but need some insight into how to convince/ negotiate
our original decision to not have children. Am I wrong?

I don't think you are wrong, but I would hesitate to advise you on
what kinds of things will convince your husband that the decision you
made earlier was a wise one. You know him better than I do, so you
should be better able to figure out how to sway him to your position.

Ask him, if he would be willing to adopt or foster a child. If he
would not, then it isn't just about having someone to take care of you
in your old age.


grandma Rosalie

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
wrote:

Also I'm wondering if it's possible to isolate the
percentage that regret having children due soley to the
stresses of parenting, and not because other
issues were aggravated. I'm thinking of aquaintances who
had a planned child under very unstable job and money conditions -
figuring it would all "work out somehow". Three years
later they still struggle to keep above water,
and may conceviably regret their decision, but it
doesn't necessarily reflect anything on how I
would experience parenting.

I seriously doubt that the existing
research would be anywhere near as helpful as
one would like them to be. I think that finding
appropriate operational definitions for the terms
involved would be *really* hard, plus it's *such*
a taboo to suggest that one regrets a decision to
parent.


I suppose I knew that NIH probably isn't interesting in
funding many studies on parental satisfaction, since enough
of the population continues to have children regardless...
( Though if you confined the study to white folks and
applied to Pat Buchanan for funding... - OK, probably not
a good career move )

I guess I was wondering if any study ever asked follow up
questions, something like:

1) Do you regret having childred: Yes/No

2) If you answered "Yes" to the preceeding question, what
negative impact have children had on your life ( select
all that apply )

a) No more free time
b) No more money
c) No more sex
d) priceless collection of Ming Vases irrecoverably destroyed

It's intersting - your remark earlier comparing having
kids to earning a doctorate got me thinking. For my
sins I know more about the doctoral process than I'd like and -
well, I know a lot of people who have spent a lot of time
earning advanded degrees and I can hardly think of one who
is not, to one degree or another, dissatisfied with their
current career. Some of that goes beyond the field they've
chosen and intersects with issues discussed on other threads -
3 hour commutes, inability to buy a home, 80 hour work weeks.
But at some level I find myself sckeptical of the notion
that any of us really know what would make us happy.

I don't feel a strong urge to have kids, true, but when I
say I'm curious, I don't mean I'm curious as of
a few weeks ago - I really have been lurking around m.k* for years,
( I can't remember when I started, but I know Circe only had
two kids.) Why do I keep coming back here? Well, there
are lively and spirited debates among intelligent posters
that rarely ever include the phrase "You weren't so upset
when *Clinton* lied to the American People". But I also
kind of have a deeper interest in parenting and children
which doesn't manifest itself as "Oh, look at that cute
little onsie", but more in wondering what _is_ the
right amount of assstance to give when a kid is stuggling
with homework.

The question is: how well would that interest sustain me though colicky
nights, bleeding nipples, and terrible twos/threes/fours.
( And homework battles and early teens where they want nothing
to do with me and the late teens where I worry that "study group"
means "study group sex", etc. )

--
turnip

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
wrote:
Mike wrote:

Hello All,

I am 37 years old and have never wanted children. My loving hubby of 5
years agreed to no children when we married. Now after over 5 years of
marriage, he is beginning to rethink his position. Specifically, he is
concerned about what our life will be in our 50's/60's/70's when we do
not have children.

I am the oldest of 5 girls and spent a significant portion of my
childhood/ teen years watching my younger sisters ( 7yrs, 10 yrs, 15
yrs and 21 yrs younger than I). I adore my sisters but understand the
amount of work involved and do not want to go down that path again.

I love my husband but need some insight into how to convince/ negotiate
our original decision to not have children. Am I wrong?

Please advise,

Tammy



Well, why not have kids?

OK, I'm being a little facetious, but DH and I are wondering
at this from a slightly different direction. We don't feel
a "calling" to parent that cjr mentioned upthread - at
best we're somewhat curious. I'd like, in a general way,
to know what it's like to be pregnant, give birth, parent,
and watch someone grow - but I can't say I really want it 24/7. DH is
about the same - we both keep waiting for the other
person to make up their mind. ( This is, incidently, pretty typical
for us )

Also we do look at our parents, and think it'd be nice to be
where they are now - good relationships with independant adult
children. I'm not worried about being cared-for - I can and do
save for retirement - but perhaps a bit about being lonely. About
reaching a point where we've travelled everywhere we could possibly
want to travel and purchased everything we could possibly want
and looking around and thinking "now what". Again, no
guarantees, but so far so good, people in my and my inlaw's
families tend to get along pretty well.

Time is, of course, a factor - realistically, if I want to
avoid the magic '35' cutoff, I should start trying now.

Any advice? Any ideas? I've been lurking here for *cough* several
years, so it's not like I have no idea what to expect. And I'm
aware that a lot of people will say "when in doubt, don't".
But I suspect that if we did have kids, we'd enjoy it - if
only because most people seem to.

Believe me, that can be a very inaccurate perception.
When they do anonymous surveys, a scarily high percentage of
people say if they could go back in time, they wouldn't do
it again even though they'd never wish their kids away once
they've got them.
I suspect for most people, it is a pretty safe bet
that you wouldn't wish away your kids once they were there.
Even if you're stressed and not particularly enjoying
parenting, it is a monumental thing to see a child and
wish you could make him or her go away. But, it changes
just about everything about your life, and it is 24/7.
If you can imagine yourself leading a happy and fulfilling
life without kids, by all means, do it. It's sort of
like doing a doctoral dissertation--you have to go in with
a *lot* of enthusiasm and passion, or you won't have
enough to tide you over the rough patches!

Like, oh say, the entire first 6 months!

That said, an extraordinarily high percentage
of children were not conceived on purpose. People
obviously do make the choice to parent and get a lot
out of it. Odds are that would happen to you. But
it's not like there's some magic switch that when
you see your child's sweet face it makes everything
easy or wonderful. If you listen to parents, they
typically don't tell you that the good things make
everything else easy or wonderful. They just say
the good things make it *worth it*--they don't bother
to deny how hard it is! They just sort of tactfully
avoid scaring you off ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

I don't feel a strong urge to have kids, true, but when I
say I'm curious, I don't mean I'm curious as of
a few weeks ago - I really have been lurking around m.k* for years,
( I can't remember when I started, but I know Circe only had
two kids.) Why do I keep coming back here? Well, there
are lively and spirited debates among intelligent posters
that rarely ever include the phrase "You weren't so upset
when *Clinton* lied to the American People". But I also
kind of have a deeper interest in parenting and children
which doesn't manifest itself as "Oh, look at that cute
little onsie", but more in wondering what _is_ the
right amount of assstance to give when a kid is stuggling
with homework.

The question is: how well would that interest sustain me though colicky
nights, bleeding nipples, and terrible twos/threes/fours.
( And homework battles and early teens where they want nothing
to do with me and the late teens where I worry that "study group"
means "study group sex", etc. )

Well, that's where you get to the part about it
being an adventure ;-) It's not just your curiosity
that gets you through these things. Once the kids arrive,
you do develop a great love for them as individuals, rather
than as an abstract concept, and you rise to these challenges
because it's the right and responsible and important thing
to do. Baby lust or "what a cute onesie!" won't get
you through these things either. Being curious and
interested by nature helps, I think, because children
certainly do provide an endless supply of conundrums,
but really, you rise to the challenge just because
that's what you do.
No one has perfect insight into what parenting
might be like and whether they'll find it worth it.
Heck, the children you already have aren't even that
good a preparation for the kids you might have in the
future! So I think it's more about making a decision
that you're willing to go on the adventure, come what
may. You want to disabuse yourself of any obviously
naive notions, like it'll be easy, babies all sleep
through the night by a few weeks old, only kids with
bad parents ever throw tantrums, or kids will fill
that hole in your heart where you need someone to
love you. You want to look at your life and make
sure you have the resources to meet your
responsibilities to your child. After that, though,
it's mostly just whether you're a willing spirit.

Best wishes,
Ericka

wrote in message
...
I don't feel a strong urge to have kids, true, but when I
say I'm curious, I don't mean I'm curious as of
a few weeks ago - I really have been lurking around m.k* for years,
( I can't remember when I started, but I know Circe only had
two kids.)

Well, that'd put it back between 6.5 and 4 years ago, since #3 is coming up
on his third birthday and #2 is a little over 6 and a half. Does that help
g?

Why do I keep coming back here? Well, there
are lively and spirited debates among intelligent posters
that rarely ever include the phrase "You weren't so upset
when *Clinton* lied to the American People".

You know, I think that's the nicest thing anyone's posted to mk in months! I
agree with your assessment. Of course, I have kids so that's part of the
reason I come here, but mostly it's the fact that the typical posters here
are intelligent and interesting.

But I also
kind of have a deeper interest in parenting and children
which doesn't manifest itself as "Oh, look at that cute
little onsie", but more in wondering what _is_ the
right amount of assstance to give when a kid is stuggling
with homework.

If you figure it out (how much is the right amount of assistance on
homework), you'll let me know, right?

The question is: how well would that interest sustain me though colicky
nights, bleeding nipples, and terrible twos/threes/fours.
( And homework battles and early teens where they want nothing
to do with me and the late teens where I worry that "study group"
means "study group sex", etc. )

Well, the thing is, I'm not sure it's interest that sustains you through the
hard parts of parenting. I was always pretty sure I wanted children, and,
having had them, I don't regret it a bit. Still, I don't think I was all
that "interested" in parenting in and of itself; I was more interested (if
that's the right word) in having a parent-child relationship. And it's
really the relationship you develop with your children that sustains you
(and your kids!) through the tough stuff in much the same way, I'd argue,
that the relationship you develop with your spouse is what sustains you
through the tough stuff in marriage. The main difference is that you don't
get to choose your children the way you get to choose your spouse!
--
Be well, Barbara

On Thu, 9 Feb 2006 00:06:41 +0000 (UTC),
wrote:

Any advice? Any ideas? I've been lurking here for *cough* several
years, so it's not like I have no idea what to expect. And I'm
aware that a lot of people will say "when in doubt, don't".
But I suspect that if we did have kids, we'd enjoy it - if
only because most people seem to.

http://www.google.es/answers/threadview?id=419963


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
wrote:
Ericka Kammerer wrote:

The question is: how well would that interest sustain me though colicky
nights, bleeding nipples, and terrible twos/threes/fours.
( And homework battles and early teens where they want nothing
to do with me and the late teens where I worry that "study group"
means "study group sex", etc. )

Well, that's where you get to the part about it
being an adventure ;-) It's not just your curiosity
that gets you through these things. Once the kids arrive,
you do develop a great love for them as individuals, rather
than as an abstract concept, and you rise to these challenges
because it's the right and responsible and important thing
to do. Baby lust or "what a cute onesie!" won't get
you through these things either. Being curious and
interested by nature helps, I think, because children
certainly do provide an endless supply of conundrums,
but really, you rise to the challenge just because
that's what you do.

So what I hear you saying is - it _wouldn't_ be a good
plan to go though IVF so I can have multiples and
raise them under subtle but distinctly different
circumstances, purely in the interest of sociological
reseach.

No one has perfect insight into what parenting
might be like and whether they'll find it worth it.
Heck, the children you already have aren't even that
good a preparation for the kids you might have in the
future! So I think it's more about making a decision
that you're willing to go on the adventure, come what
may.

That's really a good way of thinking about it - because
potentially, even if having children was my life-long
dream, it still doesn't mean that the reality of
having them will be a completely fantastic experience.

--
turnip

Circe wrote:
wrote in message
...
I don't feel a strong urge to have kids, true, but when I
say I'm curious, I don't mean I'm curious as of
a few weeks ago - I really have been lurking around m.k* for years,
( I can't remember when I started, but I know Circe only had
two kids.)

Well, that'd put it back between 6.5 and 4 years ago, since #3 is coming up
on his third birthday and #2 is a little over 6 and a half. Does that help
g?


Sounds about right. I mostly remember thinking "Vernon - what a nice name!"

Why do I keep coming back here? Well, there
are lively and spirited debates among intelligent posters
that rarely ever include the phrase "You weren't so upset
when *Clinton* lied to the American People".

You know, I think that's the nicest thing anyone's posted to mk in months! I
agree with your assessment. Of course, I have kids so that's part of the
reason I come here, but mostly it's the fact that the typical posters here
are intelligent and interesting.


Well someone has got to counterbalance all the accusations of cliques
and entitlemoos.

I was more interested (if
that's the right word) in having a parent-child relationship. And it's
really the relationship you develop with your children that sustains you
(and your kids!) through the tough stuff in much the same way, I'd argue,
that the relationship you develop with your spouse is what sustains you
through the tough stuff in marriage. The main difference is that you don't
get to choose your children the way you get to choose your spouse!


I like this - because if I ask myself "Do I want that relationship?"
I'm honestly not sure what the answer is. But it gives me something else
to ponder.

--
turnip