Time Article - What Teachers Hate about Parents (x-posted)

In article ,
dragonlady says...

In article ,
Rowley wrote:


grin apparently you haven't experienced a discussion thread
with the people from k12.c.t - some of us can go off tangent at
the drop of a hat.

Martin

When did we switch to discussing geometry?

Har har har

In article , toto says...

On 28 Feb 2005 05:06:38 -0800, Banty wrote:

Explore the number of types of regular pieces of different types
in a very orderly jigsaw puzzle. Draw all possible combinations
of pattern interlocks of pieces that are fundamentally rectangular
with tabs, including edge pieces. (Puzzle would be provided -
number of pieces would depend on the age and grade of the
students).

?? That's drawing.

Yes, but they would need to write about how they decided they
had found all possible combinations. I should have included that.

But on the other examples, what learning comes from them?
Other than to inject writing into every subject.

When you can explain something to another person, you often
learn more about your own processes and what you actually have
learned.

Ony if you're verbal.


Banty

It was a advertisement about a poster.



Don't know if there are any leason plans to go with it or have
been developed around it - I was too busy today to check to see
if I can find any.

Martin

Rowley wrote:

You know I don't remember - I'll look tomorrow. It might have
been in one of their Family and Consumer Sciences magazines.

Martin

toto wrote:

On Sun, 27 Feb 2005 17:41:51 GMT, Rowley
wrote:

On one side it showed a typical
restaurant (not-fast food) hamburger meal - cheeseburger &
fries. Then on the other side is showed just how much of this
meal that you should be eating to meet the basic daily caloric
requirements for a single meal. The picture showed only half the
hamburger and about 1/3 of the fries.

Is that a poster or is there some link to the lesson plan?

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

My kids started Suzuki-method violin at age 3. (The method can be
started at ANY age.) With Suzuki, listening is more important than
reading in the early years. I think they were both 7 when they started
learning to read music. My 9yo reads pretty well now; my 7yo is
interested in reading but still relies far more on what he hears.

Many instruments can be started quite young if you have a willing
teacher. Guitar, violin, piano ... not usually flute, which requires
dexterity of the mouth/lip muscles, or brasses, which do better after
the big front teeth have come in and are NOT compatible with front
braces, and of course nothing so large that a child can't lift it or
reach enough notes to play.

With younger children, and most beginners of any (child) age, it helps a
lot to have a parent do all practices WITH the child to teach the child
to practice effectively. You can taper off the shared practices after a
while -- how long a while depends upon your child.

My two cents, since this is out of my area of expertise,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

"toto" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 18:26:01 -0800, Rick Fey
wrote:
Penny Gaines wrote:

OTOH, if a child younger then 8yo is trying to decode written music,
then that is the time to start formal lessons in an instrument?

Many children are reading fairly fluently long before the age of eight.

Many children begin formal piano study quite early. I know of many who
began at four and five years old. And they were certainly reading. I
guess it depends upon the studio.

I was one of those.

I started at 4 with piano. I did read music, but then I was reading
books before then.

My oldest started piano lessons when he was in first, or about 6yo. He
wasn't reading proficiently yet, but he could certainly read. He plays
reasonably well now, at 7.5, especially when he practices (which he wasn't
doing very religiously for a while there, but he has just now gotten good
enough that he enjoys playing more).

His teacher said she prefers they start at 7yo or later, but he wanted to do
it, so she took him on and he's doing quite well, I think.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (almost
3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Rowley wrote:

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

Rowley wrote:

There are loops that are recordings from real acoustical pianos
- things have progressed a lot from the synthesized sounds of
the 80's.

Even if the sound were very accurate, I would
still know my son's playing ;-) Goodness knows I hear
enough of it.

Ah - I was thinking more of someone playing a piece similar to
what someone else might play.

If the "live" pianist were someone I didn't know,
it would be a more interesting challenge. I *think* I would
still figure it out, though. It's hard to program in all
the little variations that characterize live music--the
little hesitation before the downbeat, the differences
in touch, etc. One *could* program those things, but
it's so much more effortless to do them than to have
to explicitly think of them and account for them. And
I'm not sure that someone who *wasn't* a piano player
would even think to program them.

But would he/she care? Would it really matter if the knowledge
was there but not the speed?

Well, it mattered to DS1's 2nd grade math teacher, which
rather ****ed me off--especially since that was her reason for
not allowing him to move up to the next level even though he
had mastered all the concepts and was bored to tears.

Did you contest the decision to not move her up? I know parents
do that here all the time, and usually the kid is moved.

I was more naieve at the time. I gave the teacher
the benefit of the doubt for too long, as I was sort of
incredulous that she was really holding him back because
he wasn't fast enough with the flash cards. I figured
something else must be going on and I didn't want to be
that bitchy mom whose kid has to be the best and brightest.
By the time I wised up, it was late enough in the year that
making the switch between groups was going to be really
difficult, so the upshot was that he didn't get moved that
year and we played catchup on skills over the summer.

Here's hoping. Life did get significantly better
when his classroom work wasn't so dependent on coloring ;-)

Well - there seems to be some hs classes here that seem to
require a lot of coloring - or so it seems from all the project
posters that I see hanging in the academic halls.

puts fingers in ears La la la la...can't hear
you...la la la la

?

There will be no required coloring in hs. I
don't believe you. Couldn't happen here, no sirree.

I use to do stuff with crayons in my digital graphics &
animation classes - having students draw and color something
with them and then scan them in and manipulate the images. Quit
doing that after all the crayons kept getting destroyed and/or
stolen. I don't know why some students have the need to destroy
such things - we can never keep any wooden rulers for very long
until the metal strip is pulled off them and then the ruler is
broken into 1/2 dozen or so pieces.


Beats me. I'm guessing school districts in response
to test results and other feedback. It's consistent enough
that I don't think it's *just* individual teacher peccadillos,
though it's certainly more prevalent in classrooms where the
teachers are more verbally inclined.

Teachers are only human - they might have a tendency to go with
their strengths.

We all do, which is entirely forgivable. Add the
external pressures, though, and then it gets out of line.

Man, if you had to try to explain some of those
worksheet problems to a kid who knew the math cold and
could do any sort of reasonable word problem, but couldn't
for the life of him figure out what the hell the question
was asking, you'd dance a jig too. *I* couldn't figure
out what they were asking a lot of the time. Give me the old
"two trains are travelling towards each other..."

Well - some of the business leaders are asking that students be
able to work with word problems like this.

No, the "two trains" problems are fine in my book.
I think applied mathematics *is* important, and while I don't
think all kids need these sorts of applied examples to get the
concepts, some kids do and it doesn't hurt the kids who don't.
I have no beef with them at all. It's the weird "explain in
words the obvious" questions that drive me and him nuts. As
I mentioned in another post, I have no idea how to respond to
"Jane buys something for $12.35 and gives the clerk a $20
bill. How much change will she get. Explain." without
simply reiterating that 20-12.35 is 7.65 (which, by the
way, is not the correct answer, though I couldn't tell you
what they're fishing for).

I guess you could break it down and go over the various
combinations of coins and bills that Jane is going to get back.
I know I've had the experience where some teenage clerk hadn't
had a clue as to how much change to give out.

Martin


It amazes
me sometime how concerned some parents are with kids in the
lower grades - and then have to deal with parents who are so
apathetic about their high school age kids. Then again I usually
don't have to deal with the good parents as their kids are
usually never a problem.

Maybe we're just worn out by the time we get
there ;-) Ask me again in five years.

That and I think some end up being alienated from their kids at
some age.

Probably also a likely explanation.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

shinypenny wrote:

She just received her second report card, straight A's, with a gold
star for "High Honors." She now understands what this means, and that
it is a comparison with her peers.

As a curiosity, why would one teach this as being a
comparison with peers? Why wouldn't one teach is as achievement
against a standard? I mean, obviously, it is often a comparison
with peers in practice, but isn't the *theory* that it's a
measurement of how much the student has mastered relative to
requirements? Why would one introduce an unnecessary competition-
against-peers element?

But then the parents wouldn't get those nifty "My MS Child is an
Honor Student!" (and yours ain't) bumper stickers.

Kids usually don't care as much about this as the parents do.

Martin


Best wishes,
Ericka

Rowley wrote:
But then the parents wouldn't get those nifty "My MS Child is an
Honor Student!" (and yours ain't) bumper stickers.

Kids usually don't care as much about this as the parents do.

They don't give out those bumper stickers here in MS, but if they did,
you can bet I'd mar my car with one. I'm darn proud of her. Can you
blame me?

jen

My concern arises from the mechanics of "specialization" at the
elementary level. What I like about elementary school is the all-day
contact and access between student and teacher. As a teacher, I want to
be able to integrate the various subjects, even on an ad hoc basis. I
want to be able to pull a child to discuss his math while the class is
doing a group project in social science. I want to be able to work with
the child as needed throughout the day. Let's do the math calendar first
thing in the morning and then go into ESL. But, during the ESL, we can
reference the themes of the Language Arts unit. We can easily tie our
science projects to our math, and, with some effort, we can tie our math
to our social science. It's not at all difficult to tie the social
science back in with the Language Arts, along with the music, art, and
oral language.

Current practices argue against an integrated curriculum, but it has not
been actually discredited.

I'll get slammed for this, but I don't believe that content is that
critical at the elementary level, despite the trend to beef up academics
in kindergarten. I don't want to turn elementary schools into
departmentalized Junior Middle Schools, but that's the way it's going.

We have been forced to departmentalize for ESL instruction at my little
school. We have two fifths and two fourths, and each of the four of us
takes various levels of ESL. I do the EO part of the program for grades
4-5. It impacts my ability to be flexible. I regret that the lessons
I've developed for the EO group are not also available to the ELD
students. It fragments the day and it fragments the learning.

toto wrote:

We have always had specialists who teach gym, art and music,

Not where I teach, a district on the West Coast of over 700,000
students. We do have an itinerant music teacher for 1/2 an hour each
week, but as to teachers for gym or art, no such luck.

why do we believe that all elementary school teachers should
teach math and science and all of them should teach reading
and social studies.

Out here we believe it because that's what the credential entails.

It would seem that the skill sets for math
and science are pretty close and the skill sets for reading and
social studies complement one another.

I have heard that said, but I'm not sure that that's the point. At the
elementary level, a teacher trained in teaching is the important thing.
We should expect enough expertise from a well rounded education. I am
perfectly capable of teaching the curriculum across the board at that
level. If a person isn't, they shouldn't be in the classroom at all.

I would think that someone teaching what they were strong in
*and* having the training to manage a classroom and in
child development would do significantly better at teaching
those particular subjects they were best at and trained in.

I don't see why. For example, I enjoy studying history more than I enjoy
studying science. My science reading is fairly light while my history
reading is more substantial. You might say that I am stronger in history
than in science, though I think they are really related. Still, at the
elementary level, my thoughts on Hamilton or Jefferson are pretty much
irrelevant to my students as is my view of string theory. My job is to
present the curriculum and to make it as accessible as possible under
the circumstances (Open Court, absurd standards, etc.). Any good teacher
who is also reasonably educated can do the job, even if they are weaker
in some areas than they are in others.

Still, overall, I think you are certainly on the prevailing side of the
trend. I'm tilting at windmills again. The trend where I work is to
departmentalize.

I think it's a mistake, but, as usual, I think I'm in the minority.

as ever,

toto wrote:

On Mon, 28 Feb 2005 12:02:46 GMT, Rowley
wrote:

While probably not on grade level - a teacher could read from
the book "Phantom Tollbooth", by Norton Juster. (one of my
favorite books)

http://www.eduplace.com/tview/pages/...on_Juster.html

Martin

That was the ONLY fiction book my ds loved.

Did he ever read the "A Wrinkle in Time" series, by Madeleine
L'Engle?

I'm one of those people who find it odd that other people don't
like to read.

Martin

He read it in 5th grade.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits