Is there an equation ?

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:42:53 -0000, "Ian" wrote:
Do you mean you have to take your child to school and hang around
the school grounds with him until school starts? *That* sounds
weird to me.

Yes it is the school policy. Pretty much standard for schools here in
Scotland.

If it is school policy, okay. It's still over the top, but I
seriously doubt it has *anything* to do with safety, and *everything*
to do with the school not wanting to have a lawsuit on their hands if
something happens to someone's child.

I just remembered--wasn't there an incident in Scotland within the past 5
years where some nutcase shot up a school, killing several children and a
teacher? I wonder to what extent the school policy Ian mentions might have
been driven by that incident. Of course, I can't see what possible different
the presence of the parents could make in such a situation, but when
traumatic events like that occur, it's not unusual for policymakers to *try*
to react.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

dragonlady wrote:


I let my kids get themselves to the bus stop by first grade: even in
kindergarten, occassionally. Certainly by the age of 8 (3rd grade) I
would have easily let them go to the bus stop by themselves.


My 3rd grader would be horribly embarrassed with one
of us accompanying him to the bus stop except for the fact
that we say it's because of his 1st grade brother (who's
rather wild ;-) Around here, it's quite unusual for 3rd
graders to be accompanied by parents to the bus stop.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In ,
Ian wrote:

* Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
* always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
* By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
* his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
* waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
* was :-)
*
*I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and
age.
*An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS
to

I think you are either sadly ignorant of the fact that there are people
and places in the world unlike those you see every day, or you're just
being deliberately difficult.

In my neighborhood, FIVE year olds walk to their bus stop alone, because
you can see the bus stop from your front door and you are only about 10 to
20 yards away from the bus stop if you stand on your front step - because
the bus will stop in front of your house, or in front of your neighbor's
house, depending, but rarely will the bus stop further than one house
away.

In a friend's neighborhood, the bus stops only on two or three corners in
a much larger area, but still most kids walk without their parents to the
stop. My friend's kid (age 7) walks with the boy next door (age 9). There
is a neighborhood mom who is at the stop from 15 minutes before scheduled
pickup until the bus leaves, too. The neighborhood moms take turns doing
that.

I find it interesting that you point out friends and neighbors. How do
your kids get to school?

I worked on a committee that's purpose was to get more kids to bike or
walk to school. The way our district is set up, no child lives more than
1 mile from this school, many live in neighborhoods where there are no
major streets to cross, or the only one has a crossing guard to help them
across. We sent out surveys on why kids don't walk or bike to school.
Despite there being NO recorded stranger kidnapping in this city, ever,
quite a few respondents said they don't allow their children to walk
because they are afraid of stranger abductions. More than a few said
their children don't walk or ride because they don't have time to walk
or ride with them. A frustrating majority said they don't allow it
because there are too many cars dropping off kids. (And yet, they
don't understand if all of them didn't drive there would be way less
cars...)

There was one school, that despite a very active "Walk and Roll"
to school committee, would not allow kids in kinder or 1st grades
to bring a bike to school. The administration felt it wasn't safe.
(And they wonder why they just embrace walking and riding
when they are in 2nd grade...)

I let my kids ride by themselves when they were in 4th grade (9
years old.) I think my cutoff age would have been 8, but 3rd
graders get out earlier than the upper grades, so the third graders
would be alone on the streets, while the 4th through 6th graders
have tons of kids walking and biking.

By the way, the administration at the elementary schools
looooove the parents who walk their kids to school and
stand out front waiting until the bell rings. (And there
are tons of them.) The district has no money to spend
on supervision, and the parents provide that for free.
Also, these parents then get the skinny from other parents
on what's going on. Classrooms get more volunteer help,
fundraisers get more money, and policy changes get
reinforced through the grapevine, in case some of
the kids lose their printed communiqués some where
between their backpacks and their parents desk. So
good job Ian, the schools appreciate parents that walk
their kids to school.

Cathy Kearns wrote:
"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In my neighborhood, FIVE year olds walk to their bus stop alone,
because you can see the bus stop from your front door and you are
only about 10 to 20 yards away from the bus stop if you stand on
your front step - because the bus will stop in front of your house,
or in front of your neighbor's house, depending, but rarely will the
bus stop further than one house away.

In a friend's neighborhood, the bus stops only on two or three
corners in a much larger area, but still most kids walk without
their parents to the stop. My friend's kid (age 7) walks with the
boy next door (age 9). There is a neighborhood mom who is at the
stop from 15 minutes before scheduled pickup until the bus leaves,
too. The neighborhood moms take turns doing that.

I find it interesting that you point out friends and neighbors. How
do your kids get to school?

Hillary's oldest child is only around 3yo, so he doesn't go to school yet.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

"Sophie" wrote in message
...


Are you kidding? My 8yo and his 6yo brother come home
from the bus stop on their own (no major street crossings).
The only reason a parent goes with them to the bus stop in
the morning is that there are a bunch of kids (some less than
well-behaved) and it gets kind of wild without some adult supervision.

C's bus stop *is* my front yard, the kids line up at my mailbox to get on
the bus. There's one mom there (she has a kid in pre-K). I often leave C
(who's 5) cos I have to take P to his playgroup. She gets off the bus
herself, crosses the road in front of the bus, knocks on the door when she
gets here.

Isn't that normal? I know we do live on basewhich is a tad safer but
still...


I was 10 before I was even allowed out of the house WITH friends. My
mother
still feels I shouldn't be letting him play out with friends
unsupervised.


Unless you live in a rather unsafe area, your mom
is waaaaaay overprotective.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Might explain a lot



Buggy's bus stop is directly in front of our house. And the kids line up in
our front yard too. If it weren't for the fact Buggy rode the "special"
bus, I'd have no reservations about letting her on and off it. As it is,
there are some pretty rowdy boys at the bus stop who I don't feel
comfortable leaving her with. If it were Emily going to school though,
she'd get on the bus alone.

"Circe" wrote in message
news:X6wSb.6483$fD.4611@fed1read02...
Clisby wrote:
Maybe I
shouldn't dismiss, out of hand, the possibility that Scotland is
inherently far more dangerous than the U.S.? I don't have any reason
to think so, but I've never been in Scotland. Any U.K.'ers who
aren't thoroughly sick of this discussion by now - can you tell us?

Well I think it is unlikely that any place in the UK is more dangerous per
capita than any similar place in the States, simply by virtue of the fact
that the US has much higher rates of violent crime (from everything I have
read) than the UK or, in fact, any country in Europe. That doesn't obviate
the possibility that folks in the UK have a higher *perceived* sense of
threat than folks in the US. It has not, however, been my impression from
what I have read in postings from other people who live in the UK that
parents over there are significantly more overprotective, on average, than
American parents.

Now Ian is describing a family that started when the parents were in
their late teens. It is probable that he did not go to college, and is
probably living in the best place he can afford. If I were to translate
that to the United States, I'd say he live in lower income area of a
city. Now, move that near me, if he were living in a lower income
area of say, San Jose, or Oakland I could see how even the police
wouldn't give their seal of approval on having 8 year olds walk to
school alone. Heck, a crossing guard in San Jose recently was
purposely run over in the cross walk. There is usually at least one
high profile case every two years or so of some pervert assaulting
kids walking to or from school in the San Jose lower income areas.

As much as Ian may be insular in assuming every place is scary
like his neighborhood, I think it is equally insular assuming
from countrywide statistics that everyplace is not scary, because
where I live in the United States in not scary. Or, just because
he can't imagine what your neighborhood is like does not mean
you can imagine what his neighborhood is like, despite global
statistics.

In ,
Cathy Kearns wrote:

*I find it interesting that you point out friends and neighbors. How do
*your kids get to school?

My kids are ages 3 and 1. They are not of an age to walk to a school or
bus stop, they are not even allowed to ride a bus yet, and of course the 1
year old doesn't go to any type of school at all. When they are old enough
to ride a bus, they will do what the other kids in our neighborhood do -
get picked up at the curb in front of our house or a neighbor's house, and
I will watch from the window.

h.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large

"Circe" wrote in message news:P7TRb.5681$fD.1050@fed1read02...
Michelle Spina wrote:
"Sophie" wrote in message
That's your opinion, but I couldn't imagine having to deal with 2
lots of demands on my time and my wallet.

Wow, lucky for our kids we're not so selfish or materialistic. Or
clueless about what it's like to have more than one child.

Ouch Sophie. There is nothing wrong with someone deciding that life is
better for their family with an only child. It's not selfish, or
materialistic, even if a contributing factor in the decision is money.

No, it's not. I think Sophie's was reacting to the fact that Ian seems to
resent the demands the one child he (supposedly) has now on his time and
wallet. There's nothing inherently selfish about having an only child or
about taking financial factors into consideration when deciding whether to
have more children. It *does* smack of selfishness, however, when you spend
a lot of time whining about how horribly difficult/expensive/time-consuming
it is to have the child you've already got. While I think all parents
occasionally complain about the difficulties of child-rearing, Ian's been a
bit over the top in this area.

To me, it seems a big part of Ian's problem isn't that having another child
would cost more money or be more time-consuming, but that he really doesn't
*enjoy* being a parent in the first place. And while there's also nothing
*wrong* with that, I don't know that people who don't much *like* being
parents should be making pronouncements about the relative difficulty of
having one child versus more than one. If you don't even enjoy having *one*
child, it's pretty clear that you're not going to enjoy two children *more*!

I don't know if it's because I'm in a weird mood, or if it's because I
started reading this thread after it was huge (and therefore not
emotionally invested in any way), but I haven't read Ian's posts in
this way at all. In fact, for the most part, I've been surprised at
how rudely he's been treated.

I see a guy who is most definitely feeling a bit overwhelmed at times,
and perhaps a bit in the dark about some aspects of parenting, and
someone who is probably a bit too overprotective of his child. He's
even asked for input and asked questions of people who are jumping all
over him, and rarely are those posts even being acknowledged. I'm
actually surprised that he's stuck around for so long!

I guess I could also see how if I only had one child, how I could be
in a somewhat similar position. We spoiled James absolutely ROTTEN for
his 3 years as an only. The child had never heard the word "wait"
before in his entire life. If he would have remained an only, who
knows where we'd be when he was 8! I certainly can't comment, since
I'm not in Ian's shoes.

Yes, as a full-time working mother of 2 young kids, the SAHM being
tired with an 8 year is somewhat comical to me, but that's how I
usually feel about SAHM's complaining of being tired. And some of his
excuses about getting a sitter are silly, of course. But I haven't
really seen the level of "attack" from him that I've seen from others
*against* him. Everyone seems WAY over-defensive, from what I saw as
no actual provacation. I really felt like I was in the twilight zone
yesterday!

m.

In article ,
"Cathy Kearns" wrote:

"Hillary Israeli" wrote in message
...
In ,
Ian wrote:

* Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
* always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
* By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
* his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
* waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
* was :-)
*
*I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and
age.
*An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS
to

I think you are either sadly ignorant of the fact that there are people
and places in the world unlike those you see every day, or you're just
being deliberately difficult.

In my neighborhood, FIVE year olds walk to their bus stop alone, because
you can see the bus stop from your front door and you are only about 10 to
20 yards away from the bus stop if you stand on your front step - because
the bus will stop in front of your house, or in front of your neighbor's
house, depending, but rarely will the bus stop further than one house
away.

In a friend's neighborhood, the bus stops only on two or three corners in
a much larger area, but still most kids walk without their parents to the
stop. My friend's kid (age 7) walks with the boy next door (age 9). There
is a neighborhood mom who is at the stop from 15 minutes before scheduled
pickup until the bus leaves, too. The neighborhood moms take turns doing
that.

I find it interesting that you point out friends and neighbors. How do
your kids get to school?

I worked on a committee that's purpose was to get more kids to bike or
walk to school. The way our district is set up, no child lives more than
1 mile from this school, many live in neighborhoods where there are no
major streets to cross, or the only one has a crossing guard to help them
across. We sent out surveys on why kids don't walk or bike to school.
Despite there being NO recorded stranger kidnapping in this city, ever,
quite a few respondents said they don't allow their children to walk
because they are afraid of stranger abductions. More than a few said
their children don't walk or ride because they don't have time to walk
or ride with them. A frustrating majority said they don't allow it
because there are too many cars dropping off kids. (And yet, they
don't understand if all of them didn't drive there would be way less
cars...)

Or they may well understand it, but don't feel that there is sufficient
support to make a significant change -- and who on earth wants to be the
only one to let their kids walk when there are still too many other
people driving for it to be safe?

There is an elementary school near me, and I frequently have to drive
past it as school is starting or letting out. I am STUNNED at the
number of parents who do stupid things -- dangerous U-turns, jay
walking, etc on this very busy street. There are crossing guards, and
the police have been around ticketing people who do stupid and illegal
things, so the situation has improved -- but I'm not sure I'd want MY
kid walking to school if they had to come near some of those idiots!

(This is the school in which a crossing guard was recently hit by a
boat.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

x-no-archive:yes

dragonlady wrote:
a bunch of stuff snipped and I'm sure I've snipped some attribution
lines that I should have left

"Nan" wrote in message
news
Ime, 8 year olds just aren't that much work physically. I know it's
always a ymmv thing, but my ds just wasn't a lot of work.
By the time he was 8, he was getting himself up for school and getting
his own breakfast, dressed, and down to the bus stop. All without
waking me up, as he wanted me to be able to sleep, the darling that he
was :-)

I am sorry, but I think this quite irresponsible of you in this day and age.
An 8 yr old walking themselves to the bus stop? Are you crazy? We walk DS to
school as it is only 5 minutes, but there is no way in hell I would let him
go anywhere alone. He does go and play outside with his friends, but he
always has to stay with someone else. If no one else is out he has to come
in.

I was 10 before I was even allowed out of the house WITH friends. My mother
still feels I shouldn't be letting him play out with friends unsupervised.

Depending upon where you live, this may (or may not . . .) be a bit over
protective.

I let my kids get themselves to the bus stop by first grade: even in
kindergarten, occassionally. Certainly by the age of 8 (3rd grade) I
would have easily let them go to the bus stop by themselves. I usually
got up with the kids, but when I was sick I'd be perfectly comfortable
letting them get themselves off to school without my involvment.

No letting a 10 year old out of the house without an adult, unless you
are in a terribly dangerous neighborhood, sounds WAY over the top. Kids
need some degree of independence.


I am in agreement with this, although I know that you will say it is
different now than when I had children. I myself walked to school (a
matter of 3 or 4 blocks) and Sunday school (probably half a mile) by
myself, and I had an area of about 4 city blocks in which I was
allowed to ride my bike and go play at the house of friends.

My dd#1 was walking by herself to kindergarten at age 5 even though
she had a major street with no light to cross. I knew she was
sensible and could be trusted not to cross if there was traffic. She
was walking alone, so she wouldn't be distracted by companions (which
I think is a danger). This was in 1966, and in a quite rural area in
California.

When her sister reached kindergarten age, they walked together - as a
matter of fact, I kept dd#1 in parochial school (now living in FL)
because it had a kindergarten that dd#2 could go to. DD#2 walked home
alone (it was half a day). In that case, there were no major streets
to cross. DD#2 was allowed free range to play with children on the
street when she was 3 or 4 before she went to kindergarten

When we moved to Philadelphia, they continued to walk to school - much
more populated area (Folcroft), but no major streets to cross as we
backed up to TInicum marsh.

It wasn't until we moved to Baltimore that the kids ever rode the bus
and they went to the bus stop by themselves down to the corner. They
were 3rd and 1st grade by that time.

When we moved to RI, they got the bus right in front of our house by
themselves. VERY rural area - could only see one house from my house,
but the older girls could ride their bikes down to the next house in
the other direction, or even up the road to a farm to ride horses
(with appropriate helmets).

When we got back to southern MD, the kids always went to the bus stop
by themselves, although it was on the highway about 1/8th of a mile
down the road and I could not see it. They were by this time in 7th
grade, 5th grade and kindergarten.

Eventually, because of traffic concerns (drivers who didn't stop for
the flashing lights, or who had automobile accidents in the bus stop
vicinity), they moved the bus stop up to in front of our house which
was across from a parochial high school. A lot of the bus stops in
our area have little shelters for the kids to wait in.

At that point, the kids would ride the bus after school to a
neighboring farm to care for their horses and I would pick them up
after I got off work. Or sometimes they took a boat over, or in some
cases they were old enough to drive themselves by that time.

My oldest grandchildren (now age 21 and 23) also walked to school by
themselves from their school in Beltsville which is just outside the
Washington beltway. But they weren't actually in Beltsville but in a
suburb which was mostly in Montgomery Co. (Can't remember the name of
it now)

Most of my other grandchildren have had to be driven to school because
they were in private schools with no bus transportation. Some of them
range the neighborhood after school, on weekends and holidays and play
at nearby friends homes and their friends come over to their house.
This was from about age 5. One set lives near Charleston SC
(Summerville) and, one lives in a suburb south of Miami (Pembroke
Pines I think).


grandma Rosalie