Is there an equation ?

Cathy Kearns wrote:


As much as Ian may be insular in assuming every place is scary
like his neighborhood, I think it is equally insular assuming
from countrywide statistics that everyplace is not scary, because
where I live in the United States in not scary. Or, just because
he can't imagine what your neighborhood is like does not mean
you can imagine what his neighborhood is like, despite global
statistics.



True, but Ian didn't give any details to help explain why he thinks it's
so dangerous out there. If he had said, "I can't let my 8-year-old
walk to school because he'd have to pass 5 crack houses," or "I can't
let my 8-year-old walk to school because he'd have to cross two 4-lane
highways," I don't think anybody would have questioned it. I'm not
surprised that there are people in situations like that; I *am*
surprised that anybody would think that's the only kind of situation out
there.

Clisby

"Jenn" wrote in message
...
In article xtySb.59400$U%5.344974@attbi_s03,
"P. Tierney" wrote:

"Michelle Spina" wrote:

I don't know if it's because I'm in a weird mood, or if it's because I
started reading this thread after it was huge (and therefore not
emotionally invested in any way), but I haven't read Ian's posts in
this way at all. In fact, for the most part, I've been surprised at
how rudely he's been treated.

Is it rude to:
-- accuse those who claim to have had easier parenting
experiences as you as being liars?
-- accuse parents of neglect for not parenting as he does?
-- write in a great deal of detail about how his child is
raised, but refusing to answer or clarify questions
about apparant inconsistencies in his statements?

Add in his negative-only comments about his child and
parenting experience, his refusal to acknowledge that any
parenting experience is different from his, etc., and I'm
not surprised at all that he is, at times, being treated as
he is. Right or wrong, when one write as he does on the
Usenet, especially with the accusations of lying, then
the tea party is pretty much over.



have you considered that this poster might well be mentally disabled?

Something along the lines of depression was brought
up awhile back, along with a few other things, including
fiction writer. I hope it's the latter.


P. Tierney

"Banty" wrote:

To me, what USENET is so good for is to get other perspectives, which is
what
Ian's been getting. But it hasn't been particularly kindly presented to
him,
and I give him kudos for sticking it out anyway.

I don't. He wrote things, very early on, like regarding leaving his
kid along in a room at all, "It is not a centre of attention thing. It is a
safety issue." And, "Why do onlies always have to be stereotyped?"

The former was brought up as an issue for discussion, and he
never entered it. The latter, he appeared to be doing the same to
those with multiple kids, and he never addressed that either.
And there was his assertion that those who claimed experiences
other than his must be lying.

One can't respond to everything, but those are key points
that were brought up repeatedly, and he chose lighter diversions
to tackle. No kudos from me.


P. Tierney

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:42:53 -0000, "Ian" wrote:

I remember a report in the local paper a few months back. A 9 year old went
missing on the way to school. She was safe, just at a friends house, but the
parents were hauled up in front of social services for letting a child that
age walk to school alone.

I wonder why this is true in Scotland.. It doesn't seem that
Scotland is that dangerous in terms of children being abducted
by strangers. I suspect that your social services have gone
way overboard.

Children need to be independent. Different time and place,
but when I grew up, we walked everywhere all over our town.
It was a town of 10,000 and yes there were some incidents of
strangers molesting kids. OTOH, this was not usual and it still
is not the norm here. I don't think that parents and children should
live in fear of things that are relatively rare. Teach your child to
be aware of his or her surroundings and to drop everything and
run if s/he feels that s/he is being followed or is in any danger.
Make sure they know you won't be angry at them for losing books,
papers and backpacks. But, don't make them think that danger
is lurking around every corner either. How in the world do the
kids ever grow up if the world is such a scary place to their
parents?


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Clisby wrote:

I hadn't realized until today that Ian lives in Scotland. Maybe I
shouldn't dismiss, out of hand, the possibility that Scotland is
inherently far more dangerous than the U.S.? I don't have any reason
to think so, but I've never been in Scotland. Any U.K.'ers who aren't
thoroughly sick of this discussion by now - can you tell us?

Clisby

I knew that Ian didn't live in the States, but I assumed (wrongly) that
he was in Germany (something to do with his email routing).

Anyway, maybe he is overprotective in not letting his 8 year old walk to
school, but I don't think that's so unusual these days. Where I live in
Maryland (seems like a safe typical suburbs with sidewalks), a very
large chunk of the elementary school children are driven by their
parents or nanny to school, so much so that many buses arrive at the
school with only 3-6 children on them. I also see parents walking to
school to pick up their children - it's like a mass migration of
neighborhood parents from their homes and then another mass exodus back
to their cul-de-sacs. A child couldn't walk alone even if he/she wanted
to.

Cathy Kearns wrote:
As much as Ian may be insular in assuming every place is scary
like his neighborhood, I think it is equally insular assuming
from countrywide statistics that everyplace is not scary, because
where I live in the United States in not scary. Or, just because
he can't imagine what your neighborhood is like does not mean
you can imagine what his neighborhood is like, despite global
statistics.

Ian claimed that the policy of requiring parents to stay with their children
on school grounds until school started and of not allowing children to walk
alone until the age of 10 was the norm in Scotland as a whole, however. He
did not say it applied only to his neighborhood.

I agree with you that countrywide statistics do not translate to individual
neighborhoods, but Ian has not claimed that his *neighborhood* is the
problem. He has claimed that the Scottish government *requires* parents to
maintain constant supervision of kids under the age of 10.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [6], Aurora [4], and Vernon's [22 mos.] mom)

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
Financing for "5" years -- car dealership sign

Mommy: I call you "baby" because I love you.
Julian (age 4): Oh! All right, Mommy baby.

All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful.
Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its
other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a
fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman

On Wed, 28 Jan 2004 13:27:56 -0500, "Sophie"
wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!

My *dad* did that with baked beans once. My mom went on a cooking strike.
He didn't know to heat up baked beans you had to take them out of the can
(seriously). Baked beans on the ceiling. He just painted over them so we
had a lumpy ceiling - lol.

My brother did it with caramel sauce once. He was making it by
boiling the tin of condensed milk for 3 hours and let the pan boil
dry. The tin exploded!

I think he was about 18

Megan
--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7 May 2003, 17 hours: sunrise to sunset (homebirth)

To e-mail use: megan at farr-montgomery dot com

Banty wrote in message ...
In article , Nan says...

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 06:18:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


"Nan" wrote in message
. ..
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:46:18 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:

He's now living in another state. My mom can't understand why he'd want
to
do that. He called her one night after burning some food on the stove.
She
was upset that he had a girlfriend that made him cook (he likes to cook),
he
was up that late (11pm, he's a night owl), he could be home and have her
do
the cooking for him, why is he living so far away? Why is he living away
from home, cooking for himself, when he could be home with her and she
could
be cooking for him? She doesn't get it.

It must be that "after all I've done for you" kind of mindset that
people who over-parent tend to have.

You've described her perfectly.

And I don't even know her :-D
But I've met so many women like that, they drive me buggy.

Nan



Mostly older women? My mom is a *little* like that, but I have seen it mostly
in older women. They're self-defined mainly by motherhood and what they can do
for dependants. It makes dependancy a precious thing to them. Of course
personality aspects come into it also.


I'd say personality is a big factor. My mom, 70 yrs old, very much has
defined her entire adult life by Motherhood (she became a mom at 21).
After 20 years at home, she eventually had an outside job to earn some
extra cash, which was basically to be able to give us more things. She
really devoted 100% of her life to her family. She's a prime candidate
for this sort of person.

However, amazingly, she's not the sort to say "after all I've done for
you" or to thrive on dependancy. Quite the opposite - she encourages
independence. Tho she does like to feel *wanted,* she appears to be ok
at not being "needed." I actually DID worry about that at one time,
as we'd all reached adulthood and she was making the transition.
Maybe it's because she has grandkids to dote on?

Point simply, yeah, I think personality has a lot to do with it.
Though that probably also has a lot to do with whether or not someone
is likely to over-parent.

In article keBSb.6517$fD.3649@fed1read02, "Circe"
wrote:

Cathy Kearns wrote:
As much as Ian may be insular in assuming every place is scary
like his neighborhood, I think it is equally insular assuming
from countrywide statistics that everyplace is not scary, because
where I live in the United States in not scary. Or, just because
he can't imagine what your neighborhood is like does not mean
you can imagine what his neighborhood is like, despite global
statistics.

Ian claimed that the policy of requiring parents to stay with their children
on school grounds until school started and of not allowing children to walk
alone until the age of 10 was the norm in Scotland as a whole, however. He
did not say it applied only to his neighborhood.

I agree with you that countrywide statistics do not translate to individual
neighborhoods, but Ian has not claimed that his *neighborhood* is the
problem. He has claimed that the Scottish government *requires* parents to
maintain constant supervision of kids under the age of 10.

When my kids attended a K-8 school, we WERE asked to not leave our kids
alone at school more than about 20 mintues before school started.
Apparently, they'd had some problems with large groups of unsupervised
kids (don't know what the problems were) who were getting to school as
much as an hour before school started, and did not have the staff to
supervise outside for that long. (I don't know why all the kids were
there that early, but at least some of them were being dropped off that
early so their parents could leave for work.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 12:23:06 -0500, Nan wrote:
but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual!
If Scotland requires parents to be so protective as to have Social
services involved for letting a 9 year old walk to school, I'm curious
to see if it's over-involvement by the govt, or if it truly is so
dangerous.

Or Ian is making it up.

I can see Social Services taking unaccompanied walking to school as a
factor in a wider pattern of neglect, though even then it would be if
it meant the kids were hanging around before/after school, or if their
route to school was inherently unsafe, rather than parents waving them
off at 8.50 and greeting them at 3.40 (or whatever).

I can't see it happening for nothing more than letting a kid walk to
school on their own at age 8.

Most of my recent research has been around children who are in care,
so its not something I well read up on. I do know that there is a
campaign to increase the number of kids walking to school in the
interests of child health and that this includes improving safety for
children walking to school on their own. (A colleague is doing some
research on Childhood Obesity at teh moment).

Annecdotally, when we were up in Scotland at New Year, I noticed that
my nephews' school, along with others in the area, have established
well signposted safe routes to school, with painted trails on the
footpaths diverting kids to the safer routes and towards the attended
crossing points.

And finally - given that older kids can cross the streets themselves
(I was taught this from about age 10) why on earth do we both having
crossing wardens here!

Megan


--
Seoras David Montgomery, 7 May 2003, 17 hours: sunrise to sunset (homebirth)

To e-mail use: megan at farr-montgomery dot com