Reasonable force laws would be made null and void...

It's been postulated, by the worthy opposition, that if laws against
spanking were passed in the U.S. that would make laws protecting the
use of reasonable force no longer applicable for parents with their
children.

I'd like to see those of you who support the use of spanking come to
the aid and support of the poster that made such a claim.

A new "Question" as it were.

I will take the con side, that is I am against the claim that any such
law would have the least effect on current laws protecting the use of
reasonable force.

It remains for the opposition to give examples of reasonable force laws
extant.

It remains for the opposition, the "pro" side, to show examples of what
they believe would be no-spank laws and show how they would impact the
reasonable force laws they gave as examples.

For myself, I would suggest you look to the experiment in states that
no longer allow the use of paddling in public schools.

I can find NO instance where that restriction was used to argue,
legally a criminal charge, that someone touched a student to exercise
reasonable force, such as to stop a fight between students, or held a
student to protect the student, self, or others. Unless paddling was
involved, the no paddling law was not mentioned.

Suits do not count, as they are not entirely statute bound.

We are discussing criminal litigations here. As the opposition
established by the reference to "reasonable force." One can sue for
anything, and win on the whim of a judge or jury, not statute. One
cannot charge for violation of a statute that does not exist.

So, any takers?

Chris C., Non-spanker by circumstances?

And to prime your pump, here's a rather typical statute on the use of
reasonable force. Notice the specific reference to parents and children
and to others in charge of children.

Show us how spanking is used, by itself, as a method of restraint, as
this definition indicates reasonable force be used.

I see, in fact that a non-spanking law would fail to address these
issues, and in fact RR statute would be in support of a no spank law,
easily. I'll comment in [[[ brackets ]]].

Minnesota Statutes 2004, Table of Chapters

Table of contents for Chapter 609

609.06 Authorized use of force.

Subdivision 1. When authorized. Except as otherwise provided in
subdivision 2, reasonable force may be used upon or toward the person
of another without the other's consent when the following circumstances
exist or the actor reasonably believes them to exist:

(1) when used by a public officer or one assisting a public officer
under the public officer's direction:

(a) in effecting a lawful arrest; or

(b) in the execution of legal process; or

(c) in enforcing an order of the court; or

(d) in executing any other duty imposed upon the public officer by law;
or

[[[ So far I see nothing conflicting with not being able to use
spanking. There are simply far too many other alternatives available
for 'spanking' to be a needed alternative. ]]]

(2) when used by a person not a public officer in arresting another in
the cases and in the manner provided by law and delivering the other to
an officer competent to receive the other into custody; or

(3) when used by any person in resisting or aiding another to resist an
offense against the person; or

(4) when used by any person in lawful possession of real or personal
property, or by another assisting the person in lawful possession, in
resisting a trespass upon or other unlawful interference with such
property; or

(5) when used by any person to prevent the escape, or to retake
following the escape, of a person lawfully held on a charge or
conviction of a crime; or

[[[ See any interference with the duties required if one cannot spank?
]]]

(6) when used by a parent, guardian, teacher, or other lawful custodian
of a child or pupil, in the exercise of lawful authority, to restrain
or correct such child or pupil; or

[[[ Well, there it is. Can one correct a child without spanking them?
Will correction or restraint be restricted in any way by there being no
use of spanking allowed? If so, how? 0:- A person may stop, hold,
move, a child by touch, by reasonable force, and accomplish all desired
outcomes without having to use spanking. No? ]]]

(7) when used by a school employee or school bus driver, in the
exercise of lawful authority, to restrain a child or pupil, or to
prevent bodily harm or death to another; or

[[[ So in a court case where someone is being charged with assault
because they "restrain"[ed] or "prevent"[ed] exactly how would the
defendent or prosecution use a no-spank law to argue their case, for
conviction or non-conviction? In other words, how would a no spank law
actually work? ]]]

(8) when used by a common carrier in expelling a passenger who refuses
to obey a lawful requirement for the conduct of passengers and
reasonable care is exercised with regard to the passenger's personal
safety; or

[[[ Let's suppose the other scenario..that someone did not expell
someone by the use of reasonable force...and injuries took place for
which the personnel on the common carrier failed to remove the
passenger. Could they argue the no -spank law restricted them from
using reasonable force? If so who hard would the judge and or jury
laugh/ ]]]

(9) when used to restrain a person who is mentally ill or mentally
defective from self-injury or injury to another or when used by one
with authority to do so to compel compliance with reasonable
requirements for the person's control, conduct, or treatment; or

[[[ One would need to not have, not be limited by, a no spanking law to
be able to control this person or all others mentioned in previous
numbered paragraphs? ]]]

(10) when used by a public or private institution providing custody or
treatment against one lawfully committed to it to compel compliance
with reasonable requirements for the control, conduct, or treatment of
the committed person.

Subd. 2. Deadly force used against peace officers. Deadly force may not
be used against peace officers who have announced their presence and
are performing official duties at a location where a person is
committing a crime or an act that would be a crime if committed by an
adult.

[[[ You've run out of arguments, I'd bet, at this point. Exactly how
would a restraint against spanking law consitute any blocking of the
use of reasonable force as shown above? In what place did it say that
"spanking" was reasonable force? Or anything even coming near
"spanking?" ]]]


HIST: 1963 c 753 art 1 s 609.06; 1986 c 444; 1993 c 326 art 1 s 4; 1996
c 408 art 3 s 12; 2002 c 221 s 46

Copyright 2004 by the Office of Revisor of Statutes, State of
Minnesota.

....access the document at:
http://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/stats/609/06.html

(public documents may be reprinted by the public...they simply may not
be misrepresented by changing the wording....for those of you with
copyright concerns...smile. It's for preservation of the document's
integrety, not to protect against commercial use. I look such things
up before taking risks of violation.)

Kane