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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris"
wrote: Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Ray Drouillard wrote: Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000 [...] The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly prohibit all forms of violence against children, however light, within the family, in schools and in other institutions where children might be placed." [...] Paul: For more context, http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and the report by the Canadian delegation http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of action against the corporal punishment of children in the home other than outrageously objectionable. You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture, your children at your whim? Fancy that. It seems to me a prime example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly address, On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? and then bolster social engineering programs with "studies" that do not show what they purport to show. "Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain. Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the woodshed. Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to each other about what you are doing. In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of adults. Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was escalated to injury. The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense. Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child. It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly right to oppose this Convention. What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They spank. Mike Morris ) Have a good one, Mike. Kane |
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U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
"Kane" wrote in message om... On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris" wrote: Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Ray Drouillard wrote: Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000 [...] The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly prohibit all forms of violence against children, however light, within the family, in schools and in other institutions where children might be placed." [...] Paul: For more context, http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and the report by the Canadian delegation http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of action against the corporal punishment of children in the home other than outrageously objectionable. You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture, your children at your whim? Fancy that. It seems to me a prime example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly address, On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? and then bolster social engineering programs with "studies" that do not show what they purport to show. "Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain. Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the woodshed. Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to each other about what you are doing. In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of adults. Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was escalated to injury. The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense. Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child. It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly right to oppose this Convention. What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They spank. Mike Morris ) Have a good one, Mike. Kane I have seen the social engineer types massage their data. Statistics are easy to wield in a deceptive manner, and most people don't have the skill to figure out how they are being deceived. Kids who are raised without proper discipline end up being rotten adults. One must only look around to see examples. Of course, the real answer can be found in the "user's manual" that our maker gave to us: Pro 13:24 One who spares the rod hates his son, But one who loves him is careful to discipline him. Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child: The rod of discipline drives it far from him. Pro 23:13 Don't withhold correction from a child. If you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Pro 23:14 Punish him with the rod, And save his soul from Sheol. Pro 29:15 The rod of correction gives wisdom, But a child left to himself causes shame to his mother. Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. Ray |
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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Ray Drouillard wrote: Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000 [...] The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly prohibit all forms of violence against children, however light, within the family, in schools and in other institutions where children might be placed." [...] Paul: For more context, http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and the report by the Canadian delegation http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm I said: I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of action against the corporal punishment of children in the home other than outrageously objectionable. Kane: You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture, your children at your whim? No one I believe said *anything* about bullying, humiliating, injuring, torturing or indeed *anything* about *at my whim*. We were talking spanking, which has zero to do with any of the above. Kane: Fancy that. Yeah, fancy it. I said: It seems to me a prime example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly address, Kane: On the contrary. On the contrary, on the contrary. This is absolutely unaddressable by science. You cannot possibly control hundreds or thousands of possibly important variables. If no control then no science. If you want to provide a cite to a study, I would be happy to critique it directly. Kane: Science does address this issue. No, it does not address this issue at all. What addresses this issue is ideology. And, well, my ideology is a better (as in objectively better) than yours. Kane: Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, This is the fallacy that measurement of something equals science. Kane: and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? Simple, to punish my children for disobeying a rule. Precisely so that they learn obedience to important commands, precisely for their own safety when they are of an age too young to reason about it. It also is muchly to be preferred to the "time-out" in that forgiveness and forgetting are immediate. Lesson learned. Case closed. We don't do that again. The time out strateches the whole thing into a drama, with no clear end and no clear lesson taught. And that is the problem. You can always tell a child which has not been disciplined. He's precisely the sort of child the "childproofing" one's house, and the schools and the daycares notion got started for---the idea that the children cannot be expected to behave themselves and opbey simple safety rules, and instead the world needs to be made safe for them. I said: and then bolster social engineering programs with "studies" that do not show what they purport to show. Kane: "Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain. I spank my children, or did at a young age, in order to demand obedience at that age. For their safety and in order to give them good ethical habits of respect for other people and for other people's property. Kane: Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the woodshed. My children do have the freedom to disagree with and oppose me as soon as they reach an age of reason. Kane: Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to each other about what you are doing. The issue is whether you actually do teach the children so that the child, for instance, fastens his seat belt as a matter of habit, and stops upon command when he is about to run out into the street, or reaches by habit for his parent's hand in a supermarket parking lot. These things are not reasoned out with a young child, is the problem, and that is a problem that was well understood and addressed by the ancients. Hence, you begin in authority and discipline, you inculcate good habits, and the child grows into free choice with a default mode of good habits to sustain him and keep him safe while he grows. I said: In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of adults. Kane: Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report they have been spanked. No, I think I am completely right. The number used to be about 100%. The leftish social activists have tried to equate spanking with abuse, and have consequently tried to shame it underground. As a result, many parents don't spank except as a last resort, by which time they are angrier and spank less consistently and in a less controlled way. Kane: Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was escalated to injury. Sorry, but your statistic neither shows this (since the survey surveys adults) and there is no evidence that abuse comes from spanking. Kane: The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense. Nope. It comes from kids not being disciplined and, consequently, disrespecting the property and person of other people. My wife, a veterinarian, has story upon story to tell of children coming into the exam room with parents and Fido, and children making noise and climbing all over mega-expensive equipment while parent is trying to tell vet what is wrong with Fido. And, interrupting every moment or two to tell kids to stop doing whatever it is they are doing, and the kids just ignoring the command. This comes from no discipline. No expectation that good behaviour *will* happen or else. Kane: Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child. I seriously doubt it, and doubt you can give *any* study to show it. I said: It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly right to oppose this Convention. Kane: What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to liberals? Sorry, I do not use "liberal" to mean "social progressives". I am liberal. Kane: I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other conservatives that agree with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They spank. A majority spank at some point or the other. The issue is whether it is wrong and shameful to do so, so that spanking ends up being associated with last-ditch frustration and anger. Or whether it is a line of first resort, in which case it is controlled and immediate and, well, attention-getting. Kane: Have a good one, Mike. You, too, Kane. Mike Morris ) |
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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 12:52:54 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote: "Kane" wrote in message . com... On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris" wrote: Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Ray Drouillard wrote: Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000 [...] The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly prohibit all forms of violence against children, however light, within the family, in schools and in other institutions where children might be placed." [...] Paul: For more context, http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and the report by the Canadian delegation http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of action against the corporal punishment of children in the home other than outrageously objectionable. You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture, your children at your whim? Fancy that. It seems to me a prime example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly address, On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? and then bolster social engineering programs with "studies" that do not show what they purport to show. "Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain. Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the woodshed. Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to each other about what you are doing. In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of adults. Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was escalated to injury. The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense. Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child. It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly right to oppose this Convention. What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They spank. Mike Morris ) Have a good one, Mike. Kane I have seen the social engineer types massage their data. Statistics are easy to wield in a deceptive manner, and most people don't have the skill to figure out how they are being deceived. I do not need social engineer's to be able to tell what hurts and distracts a child from learning. Though I do tend to understand as well the results of brain scan technology. Last I heard they were neurological researchers, not social researchers. Kids who are raised without proper discipline end up being rotten adults. One must only look around to see examples. I do. I see them all the time. Spanked. Humiliated. Treated like possessions. They turn out very badly. On the other hand the hundreds of children I've known whose parents either never spanked, or reformed and became loving parents, grow up responsible citizens, and unavailable for demigogs to exploit. This last item, the desire to weild power over others, is what ****es you people off when we escape you and help our children escape. Of course, the real answer "real answer?" As in I have all the scientific knowledge to support my claims, or is it, "I have the right to express my opinion?" can be found in the "user's manual" that our maker gave to us: My mother and father didn't give me a users manual. Though many of my caregivers gave me examples that fly in the face of the Christian crap you are about to shovel. Pro 13:24 One who spares the rod hates his son, But one who loves him is careful to discipline him. Unfortunately for you I was well trained as a Christian, and consider myself in recovery for the last 45 years or so. You are citing the OT. Are you unaware of the Good News in the NT? Pro 22:15 Folly is bound up in the heart of a child: The rod of discipline drives it far from him. The son of the ruler who spoke such cruelty was run out of his country for his cruelty to his subjects. Solomon was no favorite of his people either. He'd have had his guards slice the child in two had the real mother not given up her child for it's life. I'm sure you, OT lover, think that was just grand. Pro 23:13 Don't withhold correction from a child. If you punish him with the rod, he will not die. Sometimes. Pro 23:14 Punish him with the rod, And save his soul from Sheol. So he can grow up to become yet another beast with a poorly developed conscience. Pro 29:15 The rod of correction gives wisdom, But a child left to himself causes shame to his mother. "Shebet." Look it up. Pro 22:6 Train up a child in the way he should go, And when he is old he will not depart from it. I'd rather NOT have a world run by people that were shamed, humiliated, raised up in pain, to rule the world. But as it is I am stuck with quite a few of them right now. I'm looking forward to you savages being displaced eventually with kind and loving people who produce responsible leaders and decision makers. Since about 90% of the people in this country claim they were spanked as children it seems your thinking is somewhat screwed up. As was Solomon's. He was a tyrant and a fool who treated his successor, as a child, so badly he could not rule because of his cruelty. Spanking and other forms of 'discipline" which a not true teaching at all produce such. Dangerous, angry, conscience disabled humans with a strong desire for vengence but fear of their parent. So they visit their vengence, as you appear to want to do, on those smaller and weaker than themselves. Those who are not cowards, even if they were spanked, rise up against the nonsense you preach, and overcome their hate and find how to love. Sorry about you. Ray ...of sunshine, I presume? Kane |
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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 12:36:03 -0500, (Bruce D. Ray)
wrote: In article , (Kane) wrote: {big snip} On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? As a research scientist whose projects have recently been expanded to include functional MRI studies in humans, Being new to the field you'll want to do some catching up. http://anon.user.anonymizer.com/http...es%22+learning I find this remark about brain scan studies and distractions quite interesting. I hope so. Please provide your citations on this. In particular, please include in these citations of human subject data. You can do your own provision of citations when you have done your homework. See the URL above. Again and again in studies on learning, using brain scan imagery, anything that distracts creates more learning difficulty. And that was known long before imaging technology uncovered it. But social scientists weren't believed by some, apparently. So professor, unless you are one of those strange thinking error impaired folks that believes that pain and humiliation wonderfully concentrates one's focus I think you'd have to admit that spanking is a distraction from learning, not an aid to it. All pain and humiliation does is wonderfully concentrate one's attention on the pain and humiliation, and the lessons in that can be very bad for the child and the rest of us when he or she becomes an adult. Pain can stop a behavior, something we want the child not to learn, but it is a poor teacher of what behavior is wanted, and the side effects aren't worth it. Kane |
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| U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 15:24:00 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote: "MaG Douglas" wrote in message ... Come on Ray... Let's remember to trim out the crossposted fat! MaG Sorry. I didn't notice that it was cross-posted. looking at previous posts It looks like citizen Kane is engaging in troll-like behavior. `Fraid not. Crossposting is an exceptable action if the ngs are relevant to the post. Which were not? Each has something to do with the content our of thread. Methinks it's you that have trouble with being called on your tripe and are so uncomfortable you don't wish it known any further than you can help. I'm not inhibited by your problem. And you don't know what a troll is. All you need do it hit that pointer on my name and you'll see I have posted for years on this same subject. That is not what trolls do. Your understanding of the meaning of "troll" is on a par with your understanding of children's needs and teaching them properly. The former mistake costs neither you or I, but the latter is going to come back and bite you in the butt if you don't start looking for ways to bury your head further up your behind. Can you say, "Teenager," Ray? Ray And you have my name wrong. It's not "cane" or "cain" it's Kane. It's pronounced nothing like the former. Basically, Ray, you are a coward. You are afraid to defend your brutal practice of spanking in a larger arena so try to confine it to this small one where you know there will be plenty of supporters. Cowardice over your ignorance, and cowardice in child rearing practices. Spankers are doomed, Ray. If we don't stop it in this generation we will in the next. If you don't volunteer to learn better eventually the cure that even I don't want will come into play. The law will stop you. So tell us, Ray, why do little children defy their parents? Kane |
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U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On Thu, 9 Oct 2003 17:53:15 -0400, "Ray Drouillard"
wrote: It looks like one of those crusaders who google for certain key words and start stirring up the mud. No, actually I've been a serial lurker to this ng for some time now. And I do think it unwise of you to equate your comments and opinions about spanking with "mud," don't you. I wonder if Kane has a standard rant that is saved to his or her hard drive. No, it's spontaneous, though I do have some sources and citations with quotes archived. It's a pain to have to wade through the piles of dross of the spanking enthusiasts to once again rub their noses in their nonsense. I wonder what made YOU think of that particular tactic though? I never have. Hmmmmm....? I note that after the first exchange, when you can no longer answer with your denial of the pain and humiliation of the child you move right to trying to kill the messenger. Coward. Everybody loves..... Ray mond. Me too. I'd love you even more if you'd stop defending the pounding of children and pretending it is a loving spanking. I hope you reform. May I point you to: http://parentinginjesusfootsteps.org "Treat children as you would have them treat you when they're grown." For they very well might. The New Testament freed you. Why not accept it? Kane "MaG Douglas" wrote in message ... Trip Trap, Trip Trap went the middle goat's hooves on the bridge. "Who's that crossing my bridge?" asked the _ _ _ _ _. Ho hum... another bit of crossposted tripe. MaG "Kane" wrote in message om... On Thu, 09 Oct 2003 09:54:34 -0500, "Michael S. Morris" wrote: Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Ray Drouillard wrote: Committee on the Rights of the Child issues decision in Geneva http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35000 [...] The U.N. body says Canada should "explicitly prohibit all forms of violence against children, however light, within the family, in schools and in other institutions where children might be placed." [...] Paul: For more context, http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0338e.htm and the report by the Canadian delegation http://www.unog.ch/news2/documents/newsen/crc0329erev1.htm I'm not sure that any context could make this kind of action against the corporal punishment of children in the home other than outrageously objectionable. You are outraged that you cannot bully, humiliate, injure, torture, your children at your whim? Fancy that. It seems to me a prime example of legislation by people who appoint themselves as scientific experts on stuff that science cannot possibly address, On the contrary. Science does address this issue. Brain scan studies show that distractions inhibit and distract from learning tasks, and if you aren't spanking to teach what ARE you doing it for? and then bolster social engineering programs with "studies" that do not show what they purport to show. "Social engineering" is what YOU do when you proport to teach children using physical and psychological pain. Your opponents at least aren't taking you literally out behind the woodshed. Whose the more honorable party, those that want parents to learn how to teach their children without the deliberate use of pain and humiliation or those, such as you, that want to continue to lie to each other about what you are doing. In my opinion, the decline of the widespread acceptance of spanking in the US is directly correlated with the widespread bad behaviour of children in the US, not to mention a whole lot nastier set of adults. Actually you are completely wrong. In the US, for instance, some of those "unscientific" studies show that 90% or more of citizens report they have been spanked. Children are being spanked at at least the same, or possibly greater rates than in the past and more abuse is an outgrowth of spanking that didn't work (as it mostly doesn't) so was escalated to injury. The nastiness you are experiencing in people comes precisely from being humiliated and tortured by parents who believe your nonsense. Non spanked children are consistently better behaved and far less likely to be involved in criminal activity. And I don't mean that a child who is spanked then when not spanked for a few weeks shows signs of improvement. I mean a consistently gently parented child. It looks to me like US conservatives were exactly right to oppose this Convention. What makes you think the idea of not spanking children is exclusive to liberals? I'm a conservative and I consider those that spank either stupid, ignorant, or vicious, not to mention socially maladjusted because of the spankings they got as a child. I know plenty of other conservatives that agee with me, and rather a lot of liberals who do NOT extend their politics to their child rearing practices. They spank. Mike Morris ) Have a good one, Mike. Kane |
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U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
On 9 Oct 2003, Kane wrote: "Ray Drouillard" wrote: It looks like one of those crusaders who google for certain key words and start stirring up the mud. No, actually I've been a serial lurker to this ng for some time now. I wonder if Kane has a standard rant that is saved to his or her hard drive. I wonder what made YOU think of that particular tactic though? I never have. If you *really* were a "serial lurker" in meh-sc, you'd know why he thought that. Makes me think you're lying about your ng habits. but,but... Jon |
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U.N. rules Canada should ban spanking
Thursday, the 9th of October, 2003 Kane: Basically, Ray, you are a coward. You are afraid to defend your brutal practice of spanking in a larger arena so try to confine it to this small one where you know there will be plenty of supporters. Ray: I don't need to defend it. The practice needs no defence -- though Michael S Morris did a very good job while simultaneously tearing your arguments into tiny little pieces. I was quite impressed, actually. Ray, I don't think I began to tear any arguments up yet---I feel in fact that all I really did was stake out a position. I am especially embarassed when, driving around this evening, I got to thinking about some of the things Kane has said, and I realized how much utter hokum and nonsense they are. He did say---did he not?---that science has somehow shown that pain can't teach children anything. Now, the "science" of brain scans or no, I would suggest that nearly every one of us has had some experience of doing something really stupid---like putting your hand on a hot burner or touching a "hot" wire or slamming a car door on your hand---and being rewarded for it with an immediate, and possibly longlasting, painful feedback which feedback has taught us never to do that again. My most recent case was rolling a riding lawn a couple summers ago, throwing myself off it to get clear, and snapping my left humerus in two as a result. I now have a much healthier respect for the design envelope of a riding mower. If Kane's claim *really* is that pain blocks learning, then he has just ruled out all of our common sense and common experience. He is probably also at odds with any and every evolutionary biological explanation for pain that I've ever run across. Also, think about it for a moment: Whence brain scans "proving" that pain blocks learning? I mean, I've read Milgram's summary of his psychological experiments in _Obedience to Authority_. Those experiments *simulated* pain in a "victim" in order to observe a subject's reaction to it. And that kind of experimental procedure has long since been declared unethical. So, I'd say it's pretty obvious that no one in recent history has run experiments subjecting people to pain in order to test whether or not people (and certainly not kids) can learn under the influence of pain. So, any "brain scan" claims there could be would have to be just wild extrapolation, making all kinds of assumptions about what causes what and what activity here or there in the brain might mean in terms of learning or not learning something. Again, all one has to do is talk to an older teacher who remembers the days in public school when he had a wooden paddle and the authority to use it if students misbehaved. Guess what? Those were days when he shooting at Columbine, not to mention metal detectors at the entrances to schools, and armed policemen to patrol the halls, were unthinkable. Mike Morris ) |
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