NEGLECT during visitation with NCP - Prior history with CPS

On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:23:52 -0500, "Robert - Michigan"
wrote:

original poster
This is an issue that goes back to long before the divorce, I will know more
after CPS gives me a report and I am able to get it to the FOC for
evaluation.

It would be unusual for CPS to simply give you a report. Chances are,
you'll have to subpoena it. Furthermore, the rules of evidence would
normally require that you produce the author of such report at trial
for questioning. At least this was my experience.

I am rather surprised that CPS is investigating at all since she
doesn't have custody of any children. It has been my experience that
CPS can only control the custodial parent and will, if the
non-custodial parent is deemed to be a danger to the children, advise
the custodial parent to keep the children safe at all costs and allude
to not following the family court order for visitation since they
cannot outright tell you not to. Be aware that a court order will
supercede whatever CPS says to do (outside of a subsequent court order
by THEM) and you will have to follow the last court order issued to
not be in contempt. You will have to make a decision as to whether
the children are in enough danger to risk contempt.

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations), it may be
necessary to have them address the family court. You will have to
decide if the situation is bad enough that you want to put them
through that.

I agree with others that it appears she needs help. It is my opinion
that the court would be most receptive to your complaints if you
concentrate on this, requesting only supervised visitation until her
condition improves. It should never be a goal to deny the
non-custodial parent access... just insist that the access be safe for
the children. You should be willing to bend over backwards to
facilitate this. Remember to put the children's needs of having two
parents ahead of your own need for having it easy to keep them safe.
BOTH can be had. It is up to you to find a middle ground that is
acceptable and to present it to the court.

As I stated in the post CPS is going to be looking into this and visiting
her home. I also have a hearing on January 8th in the morning for contempt
over medical bills she refuses to pay any portion of.
I have only submitted (about) $293 for reimbursement thru the proper process
(by sending request to her directly) then 30days later to the courts. Which
ended up in a contempt hearing being set up.

I was more less trying to get in front of the court to address several
issues, the medical was only ONE issue, the main one being the issues during
visitation.

I just hope CPS can get me the report prior to the court date.

Robert



"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Gini" wrote in message
news:a2Zjh.2302$175.2055@trndny05...

"teachrmama" wrote

"Gini" wrote
"DB" wrote

"teachrmama" wrote
I know she is still doing this because she has done it with a couple
of guys I know, though she has no idea that I know them...lol

Now this behavior would cause me to stop all visitation, too.
Especially with a 17 year old daughter! THAT is scary!! As for the
food suggestion--it had nothing to do with whether or not mom
lied--she seems to be a pathetic loser.

All the signs of mental illness are quite obvious, I'm surprised she
also doesn't suffer from substance abuse.

Depression, low self esteem, unable to make rational decisions, no
motivation to keep her environment clean.

Dude, you don't need a family court judge, you need to get her
committed, so that she can get the real help she needs. Sounds like
she's too far gone for any real recovery!
==
I agree. She sounds like she's suffering from severe clinical
depression. Not only does she need
intervention, she shouldn't have those kids without supervision.

That was my point. The children should not be spending time with her
with her current activity set!!
==
Yeah, it looks pretty unanimous around here. I'm glad you brought it up.
Hopefully he can get something done.

My biggest hope is that he will display some compassion, and not just yank
the kids without requesting that the woman be ordered to get some help
before she can see them unsupervised. If nobody applies any pressure to
get her to seek help, she may never do so. She is still their mother,
even if she is behaving in a dangerous and destructive way right now. I
know we say constantlly around here "He is still their father." That goes
for NCP moms, too.







Beverly

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

The point isn't that it is ok for them to be put through this month after
month. The ideas being expressed are how to present things to the court in
such a way that the children will be protected.

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

The point isn't that it is ok for them to be put through this month after
month. The ideas being expressed are how to present things to the court
in such a way that the children will be protected.

Problem is, courts are never proactive, they are reactive and then it's
always too late.
Once anyone is identified to be mentally ill and not seeking treatment,
would you trust them to properly look after innocent children?

If I were Robert, I'd be dammed if any court order was going to direct me to
leave my kids with an idiot that's known to frequent strange men and lives
in a state of poor health. Why subject the kids to possible illness from the
filth or physical harm?

If he needs to present anything in court which I highly doubt anyone is
going to bother prosecuting, why not make of video of her living conditions
and claim that children should never be subjected to this filth for a
minute? In the best interest of the children, it would be highly
irresponsible for the father to send his kids over there, knowing the
illness of the mother and her living conditions.

On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:05:45 GMT, "DB"
wrote:


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

The point isn't that it is ok for them to be put through this month after
month. The ideas being expressed are how to present things to the court
in such a way that the children will be protected.

Problem is, courts are never proactive, they are reactive and then it's
always too late.
Once anyone is identified to be mentally ill and not seeking treatment,
would you trust them to properly look after innocent children?

If I were Robert, I'd be dammed if any court order was going to direct me to
leave my kids with an idiot that's known to frequent strange men and lives
in a state of poor health. Why subject the kids to possible illness from the
filth or physical harm?

In my case, the CPS evidence showing my ex is a twice diagnosed
pedophile with a history of admittedly molesting 10-12 children never
made it to the light of day in court. It is not as easy as one
thinks. One must first subpoena the records which must be redacted
and, then, subpoena the author of the records. I also might add that
there is a high turnover rate at CPS. Add the two together and you
can't get the evidence in.

At any rate, to make a long story short, the order was written in such
a way that custody would change should I not allow visitation... not
that I would be held in contempt... THAT CUSTODY WOULD CHANGE.
Needless to say, LIVING with a pedophile has to be worse than visiting
him so I had to choose the least of two evils.

Bear in mind that I had no problem letting him have as much contact
that he wanted with the children because, despite his mental illness,
he IS their father. All I required is that the contact be safe.
However, HE wanted the children with no restrictions and, because I
could not produce the evidence in the manner in which the court
desired, he got what he wanted.

So was I (parentally) wrong to send my kids on a plane to visit a
pedophile? Absolutely. Did I have a choice? Not given what the
consequences would entail. "Least harm" became what I had to settle
for. Fortunately for my children, my ex never requested the extended
visitations the court order entitled him to.

So why subject the kids? Every situation is unique and sometimes one
has to choose the lesser of two evils.

Granted, I believe this woman's home may pose a health risk given the
description, but "doesn't feed them enough" is not going to cut it in
court... especially when they are all old enough to speak up. I am
even concerned that the condition of her home may not be enough as the
kids are old enough to help her clean (although it shouldn't be their
responsibility). Her sexual endeavors may be moot if they only occur
when the children are not with her, but I certainly understand how it
would be concerning and a safety issue given the kooks out there today
and would hope a court would see this as well.

The mode of least restriction but safety for the kids is going to have
to be this guy's mantra. The court will not accept it any other way.
He needs to have ideas in mind on how this can be resolved while
maintaining a good relationship between mom and kids. He must make
the court KNOW that his only concern is the children's well-being. If
there is even a HINT of anything else, they all lose.

If he needs to present anything in court which I highly doubt anyone is
going to bother prosecuting, why not make of video of her living conditions
and claim that children should never be subjected to this filth for a
minute? In the best interest of the children, it would be highly
irresponsible for the father to send his kids over there, knowing the
illness of the mother and her living conditions.









Beverly

news.comcast.net wrote:


I would rather NOT send the boys since they do not want to go, but I am
trying to avoid being held in contempt at the same time.



Check the laws in your state; if the child is not of an age to be
responsible to intelligently express his reason, then you are obliged to
send them there absent some danger to their life, limb or health. Kids
can pick their friends, but they can't pick their parents. You can't
just choose to ignore the court order without a valid reason.

One other thing, this might help you out:

http://www.divorcesupport.com/divorc...-the-1121.html


Basically, you have to obey that order for as long as the child is a
minor. If you believe there is abuse or neglect, file a modification.

"Beverly" wrote in message
...
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:05:45 GMT, "DB"
wrote:


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

The point isn't that it is ok for them to be put through this month
after
month. The ideas being expressed are how to present things to the
court
in such a way that the children will be protected.

Problem is, courts are never proactive, they are reactive and then it's
always too late.
Once anyone is identified to be mentally ill and not seeking treatment,
would you trust them to properly look after innocent children?

If I were Robert, I'd be dammed if any court order was going to direct me
to
leave my kids with an idiot that's known to frequent strange men and
lives
in a state of poor health. Why subject the kids to possible illness from
the
filth or physical harm?

In my case, the CPS evidence showing my ex is a twice diagnosed
pedophile with a history of admittedly molesting 10-12 children never
made it to the light of day in court. It is not as easy as one
thinks. One must first subpoena the records which must be redacted
and, then, subpoena the author of the records. I also might add that
there is a high turnover rate at CPS. Add the two together and you
can't get the evidence in.

At any rate, to make a long story short, the order was written in such
a way that custody would change should I not allow visitation... not
that I would be held in contempt... THAT CUSTODY WOULD CHANGE.
Needless to say, LIVING with a pedophile has to be worse than visiting
him so I had to choose the least of two evils.

Untrue. You had a THIRD option of going back to court and requesting such
order be changed.


Bear in mind that I had no problem letting him have as much contact
that he wanted with the children because, despite his mental illness,
he IS their father. All I required is that the contact be safe.
However, HE wanted the children with no restrictions and, because I
could not produce the evidence in the manner in which the court
desired, he got what he wanted.

So was I (parentally) wrong to send my kids on a plane to visit a
pedophile? Absolutely. Did I have a choice? Not given what the
consequences would entail. "Least harm" became what I had to settle
for. Fortunately for my children, my ex never requested the extended
visitations the court order entitled him to.

So why subject the kids? Every situation is unique and sometimes one
has to choose the lesser of two evils.

Granted, I believe this woman's home may pose a health risk given the
description, but "doesn't feed them enough" is not going to cut it in
court... especially when they are all old enough to speak up. I am
even concerned that the condition of her home may not be enough as the
kids are old enough to help her clean (although it shouldn't be their
responsibility). Her sexual endeavors may be moot if they only occur
when the children are not with her, but I certainly understand how it
would be concerning and a safety issue given the kooks out there today
and would hope a court would see this as well.

The mode of least restriction but safety for the kids is going to have
to be this guy's mantra. The court will not accept it any other way.
He needs to have ideas in mind on how this can be resolved while
maintaining a good relationship between mom and kids. He must make
the court KNOW that his only concern is the children's well-being. If
there is even a HINT of anything else, they all lose.

If he needs to present anything in court which I highly doubt anyone is
going to bother prosecuting, why not make of video of her living
conditions
and claim that children should never be subjected to this filth for a
minute? In the best interest of the children, it would be highly
irresponsible for the father to send his kids over there, knowing the
illness of the mother and her living conditions.









Beverly

On Thu, 28 Dec 2006 22:02:46 -0800, "Chris" wrote:


"Beverly" wrote in message
.. .
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:05:45 GMT, "DB"
wrote:


"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"DB" wrote in message
et...

"Beverly" wrote in

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations),

A bullet from a mentally ill killer knows no age barrier!

Are all these woman charged will murdering their children not claiming
mental illness as their defense?

The point isn't that it is ok for them to be put through this month
after
month. The ideas being expressed are how to present things to the
court
in such a way that the children will be protected.

Problem is, courts are never proactive, they are reactive and then it's
always too late.
Once anyone is identified to be mentally ill and not seeking treatment,
would you trust them to properly look after innocent children?

If I were Robert, I'd be dammed if any court order was going to direct me
to
leave my kids with an idiot that's known to frequent strange men and
lives
in a state of poor health. Why subject the kids to possible illness from
the
filth or physical harm?

In my case, the CPS evidence showing my ex is a twice diagnosed
pedophile with a history of admittedly molesting 10-12 children never
made it to the light of day in court. It is not as easy as one
thinks. One must first subpoena the records which must be redacted
and, then, subpoena the author of the records. I also might add that
there is a high turnover rate at CPS. Add the two together and you
can't get the evidence in.

At any rate, to make a long story short, the order was written in such
a way that custody would change should I not allow visitation... not
that I would be held in contempt... THAT CUSTODY WOULD CHANGE.
Needless to say, LIVING with a pedophile has to be worse than visiting
him so I had to choose the least of two evils.

Untrue. You had a THIRD option of going back to court and requesting such
order be changed.

Thought I mentioned I was making a long story short. For your
benefit, I'll go into more detail.

Once the judge made the order, methods of changing the order were
exhausted or expired. A motion for reconsideration (I think it was
called that) was heard by another judge since the judge making the
order left the bench shortly after our case. The new judge claimed he
was unable to rule since he had not heard evidence presented in the
first case. So I purchased a transcript and filed a motion to alter,
amend, or vacate since the time limit (30 days?) had expired for a
reconsideration to be done. All that could be done in this scenario
was to make certain the court orders matched the verbal orders as a
judge was not going to rehash any evidence. So an appeal was sought
(the judge who originally made the order was dying of brain cancer and
making a lot of loopy decisions toward the end) but no lawyer
contacted over the months until an appeal was no longer an option
would dare bring up the judge's mental health out of respect for the
first female judge in the state.

A modification was sought after waiting the prerequisite amount of
time; however, evidence considered in the prior trial or occurring
before it was not allowed. I am not aware of any molestations after
the trial. But you know what? So long as he hasn't tried anything
with our sons since the trial, I am not opposed to their spending time
together. His CPS record is limited to molesting young children and
ours are now 16 and 17. They have been trained to resist molestation
and to tell in a general manner (not in relation to their father, but
in relation to anyone) and have not reported anything during their
limited visitations (the ex's choice, not mine).

At any rate, I exhausted option 3 in what seems like a surreal way
(i.e. judge retired within days of my having filed the first motion
and died, believe it or not, on the last day for which an appeal could
have been sought).



Bear in mind that I had no problem letting him have as much contact
that he wanted with the children because, despite his mental illness,
he IS their father. All I required is that the contact be safe.
However, HE wanted the children with no restrictions and, because I
could not produce the evidence in the manner in which the court
desired, he got what he wanted.

So was I (parentally) wrong to send my kids on a plane to visit a
pedophile? Absolutely. Did I have a choice? Not given what the
consequences would entail. "Least harm" became what I had to settle
for. Fortunately for my children, my ex never requested the extended
visitations the court order entitled him to.

So why subject the kids? Every situation is unique and sometimes one
has to choose the lesser of two evils.

Granted, I believe this woman's home may pose a health risk given the
description, but "doesn't feed them enough" is not going to cut it in
court... especially when they are all old enough to speak up. I am
even concerned that the condition of her home may not be enough as the
kids are old enough to help her clean (although it shouldn't be their
responsibility). Her sexual endeavors may be moot if they only occur
when the children are not with her, but I certainly understand how it
would be concerning and a safety issue given the kooks out there today
and would hope a court would see this as well.

The mode of least restriction but safety for the kids is going to have
to be this guy's mantra. The court will not accept it any other way.
He needs to have ideas in mind on how this can be resolved while
maintaining a good relationship between mom and kids. He must make
the court KNOW that his only concern is the children's well-being. If
there is even a HINT of anything else, they all lose.

If he needs to present anything in court which I highly doubt anyone is
going to bother prosecuting, why not make of video of her living
conditions
and claim that children should never be subjected to this filth for a
minute? In the best interest of the children, it would be highly
irresponsible for the father to send his kids over there, knowing the
illness of the mother and her living conditions.









Beverly


Beverly

Beverly wrote:
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:05:45 GMT, "DB"
wrote:

physical harm?

In my case, the CPS evidence showing my ex is a twice diagnosed
pedophile with a history of admittedly molesting 10-12 children never
made it to the light of day in court.

Was he convicted of the offense?