NEGLECT during visitation with NCP - Prior history with CPS

On 29 Dec 2006 06:56:17 -0800, "Relayer" wrote:


Beverly wrote:
On Wed, 27 Dec 2006 20:05:45 GMT, "DB"
wrote:

physical harm?

In my case, the CPS evidence showing my ex is a twice diagnosed
pedophile with a history of admittedly molesting 10-12 children never
made it to the light of day in court.

Was he convicted of the offense?

CPS protections at the time ensured that didn't happen. Their
reasoning, as they told me, is that people would not be honest with
them if they feared dealing with the criminal courts.

When my eldest child complained of molestation, he was very young and,
the police felt, would not make a good witness without others
complaining of the same thing. They were unable to access CPS records
to use the pattern already stipulated by my ex for indictment. It's a
long and frustrating story.

The good news is that I helped to change the laws in the state in
which we, then, resided. Now, if the police have reason to believe
there is a CPS record as they did in my family's case, it CAN be used.
Unfortunately, the statute of limitations ran and my son's memory
faded (and I was not going to keep it fresh in his mind) before the
law was changed.

I always hesistate when people question whether or not my ex was
convicted because not having been so does not mean the crime never
happened. Both my son and my ex told me it happened. My son would
not have been able to know, at age 3, what my ex had done before and
the sexual act was quite specific. There is no doubt in my mind that
it occurred. There was no doubt in CPS's mind either as they removed
my son from my care and would not return him until my divorce was
final.

Beverly

I have gotten ALL the reports to date, Michigan law requires them to give me
a report upon written request with the exception that they are allowed to
deny my request if they feel it would put the children in harms way, which I
have been told WHERE to send my request to and when I can get it, telling me
it will be done by this coming week.

CPS has been cooperative so far - my current wife also worked for CPS in our
county and my cousin is also a State Rep so he has helped to some degree
when I needed his assistance.

CPS had told me that if my ex was to be given custody that the children
would be removed from her and placed in my care under a "protection order"
till they could contact the FOC to get it straitened out

Robert


"Beverly" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 26 Dec 2006 12:23:52 -0500, "Robert - Michigan"
wrote:

original poster
This is an issue that goes back to long before the divorce, I will know
more
after CPS gives me a report and I am able to get it to the FOC for
evaluation.

It would be unusual for CPS to simply give you a report. Chances are,
you'll have to subpoena it. Furthermore, the rules of evidence would
normally require that you produce the author of such report at trial
for questioning. At least this was my experience.

I am rather surprised that CPS is investigating at all since she
doesn't have custody of any children. It has been my experience that
CPS can only control the custodial parent and will, if the
non-custodial parent is deemed to be a danger to the children, advise
the custodial parent to keep the children safe at all costs and allude
to not following the family court order for visitation since they
cannot outright tell you not to. Be aware that a court order will
supercede whatever CPS says to do (outside of a subsequent court order
by THEM) and you will have to follow the last court order issued to
not be in contempt. You will have to make a decision as to whether
the children are in enough danger to risk contempt.

Given the ages or your children (my local CPS considers children 12
and older at less risk even in more dire situations), it may be
necessary to have them address the family court. You will have to
decide if the situation is bad enough that you want to put them
through that.

I agree with others that it appears she needs help. It is my opinion
that the court would be most receptive to your complaints if you
concentrate on this, requesting only supervised visitation until her
condition improves. It should never be a goal to deny the
non-custodial parent access... just insist that the access be safe for
the children. You should be willing to bend over backwards to
facilitate this. Remember to put the children's needs of having two
parents ahead of your own need for having it easy to keep them safe.
BOTH can be had. It is up to you to find a middle ground that is
acceptable and to present it to the court.

As I stated in the post CPS is going to be looking into this and visiting
her home. I also have a hearing on January 8th in the morning for
contempt
over medical bills she refuses to pay any portion of.
I have only submitted (about) $293 for reimbursement thru the proper
process
(by sending request to her directly) then 30days later to the courts.
Which
ended up in a contempt hearing being set up.

I was more less trying to get in front of the court to address several
issues, the medical was only ONE issue, the main one being the issues
during
visitation.

I just hope CPS can get me the report prior to the court date.

Robert



"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Gini" wrote in message
news:a2Zjh.2302$175.2055@trndny05...

"teachrmama" wrote

"Gini" wrote
"DB" wrote

"teachrmama" wrote
I know she is still doing this because she has done it with a
couple
of guys I know, though she has no idea that I know them...lol

Now this behavior would cause me to stop all visitation, too.
Especially with a 17 year old daughter! THAT is scary!! As for
the
food suggestion--it had nothing to do with whether or not mom
lied--she seems to be a pathetic loser.

All the signs of mental illness are quite obvious, I'm surprised she
also doesn't suffer from substance abuse.

Depression, low self esteem, unable to make rational decisions, no
motivation to keep her environment clean.

Dude, you don't need a family court judge, you need to get her
committed, so that she can get the real help she needs. Sounds like
she's too far gone for any real recovery!
==
I agree. She sounds like she's suffering from severe clinical
depression. Not only does she need
intervention, she shouldn't have those kids without supervision.

That was my point. The children should not be spending time with her
with her current activity set!!
==
Yeah, it looks pretty unanimous around here. I'm glad you brought it
up.
Hopefully he can get something done.

My biggest hope is that he will display some compassion, and not just
yank
the kids without requesting that the woman be ordered to get some help
before she can see them unsupervised. If nobody applies any pressure
to
get her to seek help, she may never do so. She is still their mother,
even if she is behaving in a dangerous and destructive way right now. I
know we say constantlly around here "He is still their father." That
goes
for NCP moms, too.







Beverly

"John Meyer" wrote in message
...
news.comcast.net wrote:


I would rather NOT send the boys since they do not want to go, but I am
trying to avoid being held in contempt at the same time.



Check the laws in your state; if the child is not of an age to be
responsible to intelligently express his reason, then you are obliged to
send them there absent some danger to their life, limb or health. Kids
can pick their friends, but they can't pick their parents. You can't
just choose to ignore the court order without a valid reason.

Since the FOC seems to ignore the childrens well being in this matter I have
employed the help of CPS.
I believe that CPS will be handing down their OWN order stating she is not
to be allowed to 1. take the children to her home. 2. She is not to be
left alone with the children.

I will be happy at that point as the FOC will have only 2 choices either
halt visitation or set it up for supervised visitation or violate the order
of another court.

I believe from talking to someone at CPS that it is going to be supervised
by someone from CPS from my county (someone my wife knows...as my wife used
to work for CPS)

Knowing my ex once she finds out she is going to be "closely" watched in
this way she will just stop seeing the kids on her own.


Robert

"Robert - Michigan" wrote in

and my cousin is also a State Rep so he has helped to some degree when I
needed his assistance.

Do you think he would mind putting some father's issues into Bills for us?

Heh. My Ex and I share joint physical placement and her house reeks of
cat **** and worse. My 6-year-old son's clothes and hair are often
infused with it when he returns from her place, and he has told me that
he "likes" the smell because it reminds him of "Mommy's house". I often
have to give him a bath when I pick him up to get the smell off of him.

When I went into her apartment to tell her that my mother had died, she
at first didn't want me going in but I told her that it was something
serious and she'd want to sit down, and after looking at my face she
reluctantly let me in. The first thing I saw was nuggets of dog **** on
the floor in the middle of the stained carpet. In the summer I can't
even go in there the smell is so stifling; I really feel awful about
leaving my son there. He recently told me that sometimes there is dog
poop in his room for weeks at a time, but "Mommy doesn't have time to
clean it because she's busy with lots of stuff, like going to her
doctor." Once a week she visits her psychiatrist in Boston, she doesn't
work. He said she sprays the poop with stuff to make it smell less bad.

All of this turns my stomach, and if there were a way for me to report
her to the authorities without fearing that they would do anything other
than give her a week to clean it up (and a reason to come after me for
full Child Support and back into the crooked local wage garnishment
racket in vengeance), or just take our son away from both of us and
throw him in a group home (because you know that's what these idiots
would do instead of putting him in my house, which is safe and clean),
then I'd report her.

As it stands I called DCYF once anonymously to ask what I should do and
was told, cryptically, that the law said I had to tell them but that
"Many people would rather handle things on their own, because once you
get DCYF involved you can't get them out of the situation and there are
a lot of things that can happen."

So yeah, I too would like to see some sort of solution to this problem.
I can't help but feel that if only our genders were reversed, the
solution would be very very easy.

- Ron ^*^


news.comcast.net wrote:
I wanted to know if anyone here has had a similar situation with an EX.

The situation is this, I am a father of 3 children ages 17,15 and 12. I am
an OTR driver (meaning I work away from home for a period of 3 to 10 days at
a time).

When my ex-wife and I were together she would NOT keep the house even in the
same zip code as clean. She would NOT feed the children a proper meal or
make sure they had appropriate clothes on when they went to school. After
calling CPS on her many times and having the children removed for 9 months
(and later returned) I finally had enough packed up the children and myself
and moved out.

I am now divorced, and remarried and have FULL custody of my children and
the FOC is telling me that I HAVE to send the children to their mothers for
her visitation (1st and 3rd Sunday of every month).

The children do NOT want to go and when they do go she takes them to her
home that is full of bugs, half eaten food all over the place.

Last Sunday my wife met my ex-wife around 8:15 in the morning, and my
ex-wife took the children back to her home for visitation. I was not fully
aware of the exact living conditions of the home at that time since I had
not seen the home in almost 2 yrs I only knew of her past history with
regards to that.

The original agreement was to meet the ex at the same location half way in
between our houses around 5:30pm.

I received a phone call from the ex around 4pm saying she was unable to meet
us at the same location that we agreed upon. The reason was that she had no
heat, that her furnace would not come on. She asked me to come over and fix
it for her (which I agreed I would take a look at it - I had worked on the
field for many yrs prior) I arrived at her home around 6:30pm and was able
to get her furnace working for her.

When I approached the home all I could smell was cat urine. When I entered
the home I took notice that her home had half eaten food that looked as
though it been there a while all over the place. The counters were full of
all sorts of things that I could not readily identify as anything other than
garbage.

After getting her furnace working the children, my wife and I left the home
and headed to the car to go home. I asked the children as we left if they
were hungry they told me they were starved. We got in the car and proceeded
to head to a restaurant that I had patronized before but was not sure of its
exact location so I called my ex to ask where it was at, she replied why do
you need to go there, "the kids just ate" as she said that I found the
restaurant and proceeded to go to it. I then told her I found it and I had
to go now.

I turned to the children as I hung up and asked them, "so what time did you
eat" they told me 2pm (note this is now around 8pm) and I asked what did you
eat? They told me macaroni cheese and "a" hot dog each.

The oldest boy told me the ex planed on fixing ONE small box of macaroni and
cheese for 2 boys (15 and 12), her and her mother. Until my oldest boy
spoke up and complained that would not be enough. So the ex grabbed another
box of macaroni and cheese.

During the time at the restaurant the boys also told me the ex was text
messaging people WHILE driving in traffic!!

I have now filed another complaint with CPS and FOC but not sure if or what
they will do.

I would rather NOT send the boys since they do not want to go, but I am
trying to avoid being held in contempt at the same time.

I live in Michigan, divorce (and FOC is out of Shiawassee county) ex lives
in St Clair county, and I now live in Genesee county.

Frustrated Father of 3

Robert

news.comcast.net wrote:

I am not trying to be mean or spiteful, However I am not all to pleased with
the FOC in my area, as they have ORDERED me to send the children to their
mothers home for visitation. (including the 17 year old - said I can be
held in contempt if she does not go.. I simply am choosing not to push that
issue, after talking to the police found out if she is "forced" to go it
becomes a crime of kidnapping!!

I had the police tell me to make sure she has a cell phone on her person (17
yr old daughter) that if she is forced in anyway to go to have her call the
police and report it as kidnapping that the visitation order is NOT a
defense to kidnapping..I had to laugh about that one, how a court order can
cause someone to break the law!

In Michigan a person of 17 years of age can legally move out on their own
and can not be forced to either live under the parents roof or under their
control. Any person that holds a person 17 yrs of age or older against
their will either by physical force or threat can be found guilty of
kidnapping.

In the past year my youngest has actually come home sick to his stomach on
more than one occasion from not eating much of anything all weekend when she
had them over night. The only thing I have on my side right now is the
court order is from 1pm to 5pm on the 1st and 3rd Sunday of the month, and
I am going to have to tell the ex that she is ONLY going to get them during
this time in order to keep my kids from suffering malnutrition.

I did call CPS today and they plan on taking a look at her living conditions
and make a report to the FOC (and myself)

As far as contact, my ex went from July 15th to December 17th with NO
contact..

We have a court date in 2 weeks for contempt of court for NON SUPPORT (ie..
medical bills she was supposed to pay and told me basically "F U" )

She told me that she is going to "Tell the judge she doesn't have to pay it"
..lol I am sure the judge will love being told what she is going to do or
not do.

As far as calling if things get overwhelming the last 2 times they tried to
stay over night we had to go pick the children up because she was unable to
deal with the boys. (this was 2 hours after they arrived at her home) This
was in April or May of 2006.

I do teach my children to have compassion for the less fortunate, however I
am also trying to teach them the difference from the "less fortunate" and
those with larger issues. That sometimes helping people with other issues
can turn into a "dysfunctional" relationship and that is NOT healthy.

You really hit a chord with me here. I come from a family where both my
grandfather and my father ended up with women who had "larger issues".
My Mom had something very like schizophrenia (saw things that weren't
there, paranoid about the Mafia and "demons") and my Gram is, well, a
loon. No-one blames my grandfather for leaving Gram, while my father
was very strong and stayed with my mom until she died recently (she was
able to control her illness with medication most of the time, which did
alleviate most of her problems, but still I know it couldn't have been
easy for him -- I think both he and his love for her are very strong).

I, too, chose someone with a lot of issues, someone who in the end I
wasn't strong enough to stay with. And like you said it is an unhealthy
relationship (I liken it to staying with an alcoholic... You have to be
strong to do it, but there does come a point where you need to get away
for your own sanity, and it's healthiest if you keep such people at a
certain distance that prohibits marrying them). I'm going to try to
tell my son about this, but already he's trying to "cover" for his mom
on things... It's disturbing to watch because I understand completely
*why*.


I have done a lot for my ex-wife (more than I should do) ie.. paid on her
heat bill in the recent past to keep it from getting shut off, worked on her
car, house, ect.. But all I get back is grief.

The kind of person who, when you open your house to them for "a month or
two" because they haven't a place to live, and then overlook the fact
that they don't chip in for expenses like they said they would, and 8
months later (after being treated like you're harassing them every time
you mention their getting their own place) you finally give them a
deadline to get out and stick to it, they steal a bunch of your stuff
before they go as "payback". Yeah, I know the type.


I wanted to blow a cork (Like my wife was at that moment, but I simply told
her that she can live without a cell phone and I can not do anything about
it and hung up - trying to hold my tone down)

I was always the calm person in my relationship with her. I was always
worried about how the situation would affect the children with the yelling.
My first instinct was the protection of the children.
My family (my mother and dad) always told me I was "over protective" of my
children I never seen it that way, did not think that was even possible

The funny thing is, my ex had everyone convinced that SHE was the
responsible one. It wasn't until some time after we'd parted ways that
people who knew us started to see the truth. She sold herself well.

- Ron ^*^

Gini wrote:
"DB" wrote

"teachrmama" wrote

I know she is still doing this because she has done it with a couple of
guys I know, though she has no idea that I know them...lol

Now this behavior would cause me to stop all visitation, too. Especially
with a 17 year old daughter! THAT is scary!! As for the food
suggestion--it had nothing to do with whether or not mom lied--she seems
to be a pathetic loser.

All the signs of mental illness are quite obvious, I'm surprised she also
doesn't suffer from substance abuse.

Depression, low self esteem, unable to make rational decisions, no
motivation to keep her environment clean.

Dude, you don't need a family court judge, you need to get her committed,
so that she can get the real help she needs. Sounds like she's too far
gone for any real recovery!

==
I agree. She sounds like she's suffering from severe clinical depression.
Not only does she need
intervention, she shouldn't have those kids without supervision.

My ex has chronic severe depression, I was told by three lawyers that
the court wouldn't look at that in a custody battle because it was a
"pre-existing condition" and as long as she was getting treatment it was OK.

- Ron ^*^

Werebat wrote:
Heh. My Ex and I share joint physical placement and her house reeks of
cat **** and worse. My 6-year-old son's clothes and hair are often
infused with it when he returns from her place, and he has told me that
he "likes" the smell because it reminds him of "Mommy's house". I often
have to give him a bath when I pick him up to get the smell off of him.

When I went into her apartment to tell her that my mother had died, she
at first didn't want me going in but I told her that it was something
serious and she'd want to sit down, and after looking at my face she
reluctantly let me in. The first thing I saw was nuggets of dog **** on
the floor in the middle of the stained carpet. In the summer I can't
even go in there the smell is so stifling; I really feel awful about
leaving my son there. He recently told me that sometimes there is dog
poop in his room for weeks at a time, but "Mommy doesn't have time to
clean it because she's busy with lots of stuff, like going to her
doctor." Once a week she visits her psychiatrist in Boston, she doesn't
work. He said she sprays the poop with stuff to make it smell less bad.

All of this turns my stomach, and if there were a way for me to report
her to the authorities without fearing that they would do anything other
than give her a week to clean it up (and a reason to come after me for
full Child Support and back into the crooked local wage garnishment
racket in vengeance), or just take our son away from both of us and
throw him in a group home (because you know that's what these idiots
would do instead of putting him in my house, which is safe and clean),
then I'd report her.

As it stands I called DCYF once anonymously to ask what I should do and
was told, cryptically, that the law said I had to tell them but that
"Many people would rather handle things on their own, because once you
get DCYF involved you can't get them out of the situation and there are
a lot of things that can happen."

So yeah, I too would like to see some sort of solution to this problem.
I can't help but feel that if only our genders were reversed, the
solution would be very very easy.

- Ron ^*^



Different states have very different rules, I am in Ohio so I dont know
what your specifics. Group homes are almost never used if a normal
foster home is available, they are generally licenced as treatment
homes for more severe problems and so demand more money per month than
a normal home. That means even the most grab-happy of case workers try
to find a foster placement rather than a group home placement.

Second, a judge would insist on some evidence against you in order to
suspend your custody rights, assuming he is anything like the judges I
work with. CPS can do a emergency removal but at least in Ohio are
required to go in front of a judge within 24 hours of that removal, and
about 50% of the time they are sent straight home at that hearing. Of
the times they are not about 50% of the remainer has them ordered to
grandma, aunt etc while an investigation is completed, the remaining
quarter are usally the situations where most thinking adults would
agree the child wasnt safe. Not that they dont screw up royally
sometimes but even then it tends to be in sending children home into an
unsafe environment, not pulling a child out of a borderline situation.
Almost all states have laws that give preference to family acting as
kinship care placemnts rather than county foster homes,

On the rare occasion that a father is in the picture the visitation
remains unchanged, but the child is picked up from my home rather than
the mother's. I have never had a placement with true joint custody so
I dont know how that would effect the situation.

I would suggest talking to CPS, for a dirty house a week would likley
be given with periodic checks after that point.

Ghostwriter

CPS had told me that if my ex was to be given custody that the children
would be removed from her and placed in my care under a "protection order"
till they could contact the FOC to get it straitened out

Be carefull of protective orders. CPS put my daugter under a protective
order due to her mothers activities. Now they want to put our daughter
back in her care. She is dual diagnosed (bipolar and alcoholic) and had
only been out of treatment for a short period of time. I have been the
one taking care of her since she was born, she is 3 now.

I know that protective orders can be usefull but make sure you stay in
very close contact with CPS.