Homework for a 5 year old - how much involvement needed.

bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

bizby40 wrote:

1) Use multiple approaches in class, where you have
to address all children with different abilities
and styles at once.


And they seem to be doing that. In fact, this very thing
seems to be what some parents are complaining about.


Uhmm...no, this is what is rarely done. School systems usually pick ONE
curriculum for a subject in a grade and all the teachers use it. With
all the state testing, things have gotten even tighter because at least
some portion of the time is now teaching the children how to take these
tests.

Jeanne

"Rosalie B." wrote in message
...
With dd#1, I used to go to the library with a list of books that
children typically liked on various subjects and look for them there.
It was a VERY small library - little more than 2 rooms. And if the
library didn't have any of the books, I put in an interlibrary loan
request. By the next week, the books were there, and we took them out
and I gave them another list of requests.

DD#2 was a little more like her dad and it wasn't until hs when she
did much reading. She happened to be in a non-academic English class
(due to scheduling) and the teacher wanted to get them into the habit
of reading so she required only that they read some number of chapter
books and do some type of report - could be a poster or a written
report or an oral report they could pick from several options. And so
I went to the library and picked out books that I thought wouldn't
bore her (I got her some of the Mrs. Polifox books which were about a
woman about the age of her grandmother who traveled like her
grandmother, but unlike her grandmother worked for the CIA). She
still doesn't read much, but she can.

Lol -- I'm in the position of trying to find books for my kids too.
They do go to the school library on their own, but that's only
one or two books a week. DD is easier because she's in the
regular juvenile section, and I know pretty much what she likes.
She's finishing up the Goosebumps books, I got her a new
Lemony Snicket book (she's up to The Grim Grotto -- have The
Penultimate Peril on hold), and a book about a guy who grants
wishes at a carnival. DS is harder. He loves the Boxcar
Children books, so we always have a couple of those on hand,
but those are for reading to him, he can't read them himself. So
I wander around the easy reader section trying to find things
that he can read, but aren't too babyish. I got him some Cam
Jansen and Nate the Great and a couple of others. But he
really likes science and history books, and again, he can't
read those on his own.

Bizby

"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...
It seems unlikely that the child picked 608 completely at random.
It's most likely that she took 308 and added something easy
(300) and then wrote the problem in reverse order. So the
teacher was probably looking for something like, "I took
308 and added 300 to it to get 608, and then turned it
around." Or if she'd picked 762 as her starting number, she
could write, "I picked a number that I knew was bigger than
308 and then subtracted from it." It seems to me that your
DD's "explanation" didn't really explain her thought processes
at all.

She may not be quite aware that that's what she did.

Aha! Now you're getting it. These "How" and "why"
questions are designed to make the child think about
how they solved something. And perhaps as they clue
in more to the strategies they are using, they will be
able to better apply those strategies in new situations.
Or perhaps when someone else in their class describes
the strategy *they* used, your child will realize that
the way they did it was better, and apply it next
time.

Do kids, after writing poetry, need to write how they came up with the
rhymes?
Would you think that a useful addition to the task?

How about if they count up the syllables in each poem, calculate the
mean
and
standard deviation, and strive to decrease the standard deviation.
They
can
calculate several after having written several limericks, for the
different
lenghts of lines required.

That way they can get self-feedback on a measure of the quality of
their
poetry.

Would you support something like that?

You know, if they had them do something like that, I'd
consider it a math assignment, and since they need to learn
math as well as English, that would be fine by me.

Bizby



Would it also be OK with you if they got a lower grade on ENGLISH if the
math was incorrect?

No. And I have consistently said I don't think it's right for them
to be graded down for spelling or such on a math assignment.

Bizby

toypup wrote:
"Banty" wrote in message
...

One thing it took me awhile to learn was to regard the outline as
something that
"they" needed. A teacher-pleaser that I would draw up to turn in ahead of
time
as required, only for the sake of that. Then I could go right on ahead
and
write the actual paper however I wanted. I never got dinged for that (I'm
talking high school), sometimes the teacher or instructor would be
impressed
somehow.


I think turning the paper in as you work on it helps decrease the risk of
plagiarism. The teacher can see your work as you do it. FWIW, I rarely
used outlines, except when needed. Many times, I'd write the paper and then
outline the paper so I'd have an outline to turn in.

My take is that the vast majority of teachers
who ask for notes/outlines/drafts/etc. to be handed
in are simply forcing management of the timeline.
Waaaaaaaaay too many kids (even at the college level)
will leave a big paper until the bitter end if there
aren't earlier deadlines, and then they do a lousy
job of it and don't get much out of the assignment.
An outline is a convenient way of conveying to the
teacher that an appropriate amount of information
has been gathered and one has developed an appropriate
argument and supporting information. If it weren't
for that, I think there'd be little requirement
for outlines aside from some assignments when
outlines were being taught.

Best wishes,
Ericka

"Jeanne" wrote in message
...
bizby40 wrote:
"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...

bizby40 wrote:

1) Use multiple approaches in class, where you have
to address all children with different abilities
and styles at once.


And they seem to be doing that. In fact, this very thing
seems to be what some parents are complaining about.


Uhmm...no, this is what is rarely done. School systems usually pick ONE
curriculum for a subject in a grade and all the teachers use it. With all
the state testing, things have gotten even tighter because at least some
portion of the time is now teaching the children how to take these tests.

What I remember from grade school is a sheet of problems, and
a number line taped to my desk. My kids also used the number
line. But they also used those Unifix(?) cubes or plastic disks,
they played dice games, they played the card game 24. They
approached the basic task of adding and subtracting from many
different angles.

Bizby

dragonlady wrote:

In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

I've seen very few ideas. Mostly I've just seen how the schools and the
teachers are awful. And I haven't really advocated any ideas of my
own except the radical idea that perhaps educators know what they
are doing and might be supported instead assumed to be stupid,
intractible, uncaring or stubborn.

Most teachers are pretty good. A handful are stupid, intractible,
uncaring and stubborn.

I would say there have been two suggestions he

1 - stop giving so damned much homework. Maybe even eliminate it all
together in early elementary grades. Instead, work with the parents to
find appropriate ways to suppliment each child's education in ways that
play to their strengths, and give them an opportunity to work on their
weaknesses.

2 - stop grading kids in unrelated areas: the only place this has come
up is in math, but stop dinging kids who are good at math for what they
do with their verbal explanations.

Frankly, NOT all educators know what they are doing and are deserving of
our support.

Unfortunately, teachers around here are paid not enough to live on -- my
son has lost *3* very good math and science teachers who decided to move
away so they could actually earn a living at their chosen field.

Basically around here, everyone who could work at the local Naval Air
Station did because the pay was so much better. This left the
math/science teachers like my dh who would have lost his pension had
he done that, people who couldn't pass the security check because they
were foreign born or some other such reason, people like myself who
wanted to teach and had another income in the family to take up the
slack, people who had too much time invested in the system to want to
change, and people who were too incompetent to get a job on the base.
We even lost a few English teachers this way.



grandma Rosalie

In article , bizby40 says...


"dragonlady" wrote in message
...
In article ,
"bizby40" wrote:

"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...


"Banty" wrote in message
...
In article , bizby40 says...
It seems unlikely that the child picked 608 completely at random.
It's most likely that she took 308 and added something easy
(300) and then wrote the problem in reverse order. So the
teacher was probably looking for something like, "I took
308 and added 300 to it to get 608, and then turned it
around." Or if she'd picked 762 as her starting number, she
could write, "I picked a number that I knew was bigger than
308 and then subtracted from it." It seems to me that your
DD's "explanation" didn't really explain her thought processes
at all.

She may not be quite aware that that's what she did.

Aha! Now you're getting it. These "How" and "why"
questions are designed to make the child think about
how they solved something. And perhaps as they clue
in more to the strategies they are using, they will be
able to better apply those strategies in new situations.
Or perhaps when someone else in their class describes
the strategy *they* used, your child will realize that
the way they did it was better, and apply it next
time.

Do kids, after writing poetry, need to write how they came up with the
rhymes?
Would you think that a useful addition to the task?

How about if they count up the syllables in each poem, calculate the
mean
and
standard deviation, and strive to decrease the standard deviation.
They
can
calculate several after having written several limericks, for the
different
lenghts of lines required.

That way they can get self-feedback on a measure of the quality of
their
poetry.

Would you support something like that?

You know, if they had them do something like that, I'd
consider it a math assignment, and since they need to learn
math as well as English, that would be fine by me.

Bizby



Would it also be OK with you if they got a lower grade on ENGLISH if the
math was incorrect?

No. And I have consistently said I don't think it's right for them
to be graded down for spelling or such on a math assignment.

But you still would consider introducing quantitative parts to language to be
"math", but written explanations of arithmetic to be integral to the arithmetic.

That my son had his written arithmetic explanations graded was insult on injury.
He really did not need to have the verbal stuff heaped on his learning
arithmetic and math concepts to begin with.

Banty

"bizby40" wrote:


"Rosalie B." wrote in message
.. .
With dd#1, I used to go to the library with a list of books that
children typically liked on various subjects and look for them there.
It was a VERY small library - little more than 2 rooms. And if the
library didn't have any of the books, I put in an interlibrary loan
request. By the next week, the books were there, and we took them out
and I gave them another list of requests.

DD#2 was a little more like her dad and it wasn't until hs when she
did much reading. She happened to be in a non-academic English class
(due to scheduling) and the teacher wanted to get them into the habit
of reading so she required only that they read some number of chapter
books and do some type of report - could be a poster or a written
report or an oral report they could pick from several options. And so
I went to the library and picked out books that I thought wouldn't
bore her (I got her some of the Mrs. Polifox books which were about a
woman about the age of her grandmother who traveled like her
grandmother, but unlike her grandmother worked for the CIA). She
still doesn't read much, but she can.

Lol -- I'm in the position of trying to find books for my kids too.
They do go to the school library on their own, but that's only
one or two books a week. DD is easier because she's in the
regular juvenile section, and I know pretty much what she likes.
She's finishing up the Goosebumps books, I got her a new
Lemony Snicket book (she's up to The Grim Grotto -- have The
Penultimate Peril on hold), and a book about a guy who grants
wishes at a carnival. DS is harder. He loves the Boxcar
Children books, so we always have a couple of those on hand,
but those are for reading to him, he can't read them himself. So
I wander around the easy reader section trying to find things
that he can read, but aren't too babyish. I got him some Cam
Jansen and Nate the Great and a couple of others. But he
really likes science and history books, and again, he can't
read those on his own.

The book I used to get the list was by Nancy Larrick (A Parent's Guide
to Reading) who happened to be in college with my mom (they both went
to Goucher). It's probably outdated now but you might see if you
could get a copy of it. She died at the beginning of this year at age
93

Larrick's lifelong passion for quality children's literature was evident while she was an associate editor of children's books at Random House from 1952 to 1959. She was dismayed by the poor quality of standard reading textbooks like the Dick and Jane series—she preferred instead Dr. Seuss's works and Else Holmelund Minarik's Little Bear. In 1956 she founded the International Reading Association, and in 1958, she influenced parents' reading selections with her book A Parent's Guide to Reading (Doubleday). Larrick wrote or edited almost 30 books for children


grandma Rosalie

On Thu, 17 Nov 2005 08:19:56 -0500, Ericka Kammerer
wrote:
Waaaaaaaaay too many kids (even at the college level)
will leave a big paper until the bitter end if there
aren't earlier deadlines, and then they do a lousy
job of it and don't get much out of the assignment.
An outline is a convenient way of conveying to the
teacher that an appropriate amount of information
has been gathered and one has developed an appropriate
argument and supporting information. If it weren't
for that, I think there'd be little requirement
for outlines aside from some assignments when
outlines were being taught.

I have to say, my papers were always the best when they were last
minute. All my last-minute projects were best. If I worked on
something a bit at a time everyday or so, it was not as good. This was
even in college. And I know many people who are the same way.
Marie

"toypup" wrote in message
. net...

"Ericka Kammerer" wrote in message
...
Donna Metler wrote:
"toypup" wrote in message
om...

Please, you just said what Ericka said and do you really think they
want
a
child to explain it like this? What do you think an elementary school
child's answer should be?


I suspect it would be something like

*******
and
*****
put together is the same as ************

Simply because that's the way it's taught-as sets of items before
symbolic
notation. At least the curriculum my former school used, which did do
the
"math journal" thing explicitly stated in the teacher's manual that
students
should "Draw or write their answer", and I know this is also the case
on
at
least some of the state tests which have math written sections as well.

But honestly, is that not utterly ridiculous
for a child who is working far beyond that? A third
grader who's had basic addition under his belt for
some time wouldn't even *think* to answer that way.

Save that for an adult who knows the answer and would never think to
answer
like that. waves hand

A third grader's math journal would be more like "Explain why 3/4 is bigger
than 2/3". Math journal assignments follow the math assignment, and third
grade math books aren't going to be spending much time on one digit
addition. (And mind you, I say this as a former third grade teacher).

Similarly, I don't know many teachers, or texts, which will say "show all
work" for something which would be mental math for many students. 13 divided
by 4 wouldn't have much work to show. 1395/4 might, and 13952/42 probably
would.

My usual rule of thumb with problems which would usually be multistep was
"do one my way, and then you can do the rest any way which gets you the
right answer", but also make my students aware that I can only grade and
give partial credit for what I see, so if they didn't record intermediate
steps, I had no way of knowing that they were on the right track until the
final step (this mostly came into play in middle school pre-algebra and
algebra).

And, as I said before, for every single student who really could, say, do
long division completely mentally and get to the right answer, there were at
least a half dozen who proved they couldn't when it came to test day.