Stubborn 4 year old boy.

I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

This has been highlighted after attempting speech therapy, and wasting
an entire 1 hour assesment, because he would not attempt the
activities.

Dom.

Dom wrote:

I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

This has been highlighted after attempting speech therapy, and wasting
an entire 1 hour assesment, because he would not attempt the
activities.

The fix is the same as the fix for a tantrum - which this is except he
has more control. He has got your number. He does find satisfaction
in resisting your direction. So as much as possible - ignore him.

I had one like this except she was a girl - also the second one in the
family. Very competitive child.

You will have to think very carefully about the non-negotiable items
in his life. Not things like eating or using the toilet. Things like
being in a child safety seat in the car, not playing with
knives/matches etc. And be prepared to ignore the non-essentials.
Think about what you are going to do if he refused to do something and
don't ask for anything that you are not going to enforce.

Rosalie,

Trying to enforce our directions normally result in tantrums. We can
handle them and back each other up emotionally. He will usually give
up crying and screaming after an hour or so, and will often fall
asleep from exhaustion. This happened after the visit to the speech
therapist. We told him he could play the Nintendo in the afternoon if
he was good, then when we left he wanted to play the Nintendo, and we
said no, not until he's completed the assesment, which hopefully will
be next Monday. This prompted severe protests, screaming, kicking,
crying etc. He kept this up for an hour, then tried it some more on
the following day, though for not as long. I expect there will be
more over the coming week. When asked if he will cooperate with the
speech therapist next time, the answer is a stubborn "No!" with arms
crossed, and a grumpy look on his face. If this behaviour wasn't so
common it would be quite funny.

Dom.

Dom wrote:
Rosalie,

Trying to enforce our directions normally result in tantrums. We can
handle them and back each other up emotionally. He will usually give
up crying and screaming after an hour or so, and will often fall
asleep from exhaustion. This happened after the visit to the speech
therapist. We told him he could play the Nintendo in the afternoon if
he was good, then when we left he wanted to play the Nintendo, and we
said no, not until he's completed the assesment, which hopefully will
be next Monday. This prompted severe protests, screaming, kicking,
crying etc. He kept this up for an hour, then tried it some more on
the following day, though for not as long. I expect there will be
more over the coming week. When asked if he will cooperate with the
speech therapist next time, the answer is a stubborn "No!" with arms
crossed, and a grumpy look on his face. If this behaviour wasn't so
common it would be quite funny.

With a kid like that, you're just going to have to endure
a lot of tantrums--that's why Rosalie suggested choosing your
battles carefully ;-) Choosing your battles and keeping them to
the absolute minimum won't magically make him more compliant.
It will just make your life a little easier while maintaining
the iron-clad rule that you follow through 100 percent of the
time. You must never, ever tell him he has to do something,
and then fail to follow through--even if he throws a huge fit.
You can't afford to draw a line in the sand if you're not willing
and able to defend it. So, for everything that isn't absolutely
essential, you can say "yes" or "maybe" or "I'll think about it" or
whatever you like, but if it is important you have to spell it out
clearly and then follow through.

In my experience, it also helps to stay one step ahead
of the kid and try not to trigger the stubbornness if you can
help it. Don't let on that things are really important to you.
Don't back him into a corner--make him think things are *his*
choice as often as you can. Try not to get emotionally involved
when he's being stubborn. Do what you have to do, but without
losing your temper or showing him that you're seething with
frustration and embarrassment on the inside. If you can ignore,
do so. Work really, really hard on rewarding the positive. Catch
him being good as often as you can, and praise or otherwise
reward him--even if it's for something tiny. Only praise him
when he's genuinely doing the right thing, but look really hard
for those opportunities and pounce on them when they happen.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Dom wrote:
Rosalie,

Trying to enforce our directions normally result in tantrums. We can
handle them and back each other up emotionally. He will usually give
up crying and screaming after an hour or so, and will often fall
asleep from exhaustion. This happened after the visit to the speech
therapist. We told him he could play the Nintendo in the afternoon if
he was good, then when we left he wanted to play the Nintendo, and we
said no, not until he's completed the assesment, which hopefully will
be next Monday. This prompted severe protests, screaming, kicking,
crying etc. He kept this up for an hour, then tried it some more on
the following day, though for not as long. I expect there will be
more over the coming week. When asked if he will cooperate with the
speech therapist next time, the answer is a stubborn "No!" with arms
crossed, and a grumpy look on his face. If this behaviour wasn't so
common it would be quite funny.

Dom.

When he does give in without a big fight, make sure you reward him for
that. As Erika pointed out, when you draw your line in the sand, you
can't let him cross it. But you can also make it worthwhile for him to
not want to cross it, as well.

It's a tough battle, I know.

Jeff

On Mon, 18 Feb 2008 18:33:09 -0800 (PST), Dom
wrote:

Trying to enforce our directions normally result in tantrums. We can
handle them and back each other up emotionally. He will usually give
up crying and screaming after an hour or so, and will often fall
asleep from exhaustion.

This doesn't seem like a very happy situation for either you or him.

This happened after the visit to the speech
therapist. We told him he could play the Nintendo in the afternoon if
he was good,

Good is too nebulous, you have to make your rewards contingent on
something more specific.

then when we left he wanted to play the Nintendo, and we
said no,

And perhaps he was good by his assessment, so you were being unfair.

not until he's completed the assesment, which hopefully will
be next Monday.

That's too long to wait for a reward for a 4 year old boy.

This prompted severe protests, screaming, kicking,
crying etc. He kept this up for an hour, then tried it some more on
the following day, though for not as long. I expect there will be
more over the coming week.

When he tantrums, how do you react? It seems to me that he is getting
plenty of negative attention for his tantrumming, so they ratchet up.

When asked if he will cooperate with the speech therapist next time,
the answer is a stubborn "No!" with arms crossed, and a grumpy look
on his face.

Why ask him a question you already know the answer to.

If this behaviour wasn't so common it would be quite funny.

You need to get out of the negative cycle.

Make a list (a short one) of non-negotiable items. These are ones you
are willing to put up with tantrums for to obtain eventual compliance.
Generally violence falls into this category - throwing things, hitting
or kicking people, etc.

Think about things which are negotiable. For those things, let him
have his way as much as you can.

Every day find things he is doing that are *good* and encourage those
by acknowledging them. *You cleaned up the cars.* *I bet it was fun
playing and cooperating with your brother.* *I like your picture.
You used a lot of blue in it. Is that your favorite color?*

Find about 1/2 hour every day where you play with him and allow him to
be the boss, getting you to do what he wants. Don't try to structure
an activity for him at this time, let him tell you what he wants to
do. If you can take him out without his brother for a while and pay
attention only to him that may help him to feel special.

To help him deal with his anger and frustration, try teaching him
self-calming techniques when he is calm and reminding him to use them
when he is frustrated.

Self-Calming Techniques

We have learned to teach our children to name feelings which is good,
but need to teach them how to cope with feelings.

Your first defense is heading off things before the situation starts
to deteriorate.

Prevention: give choices; say yes when you can (yes – you can have a
cookie after dinner); use skills you’ve learned (e.g., leaving
the house, give warning, transitional object).

We do want to help kids identify and name their feelings. But we
really want to teach our kids how to cope with their feelings. These
are life skills. The emotionally literate child is more likely to be
successful in school, at work and in interpersonal relationships.
Emotional intelligence helps safeguard children from drug and alcohol
addiction, eating disorders, aggressive behavior and depression.

When we pay more attention to certain emotions we see more of it
(e.g., your child falls down and looks to Mom to see if they should
cry).

The Self-Calming Plan

1. Acknowledge and name the feeling (just knowing someone is
empathetic helps)
2. Set limits (its okay to be angry but hitting the cat is not okay)
3. Offer self-calming choices (limit two for young children)


Six Categories

Audio/Verbal
listen to calming music, sing a song, talk to someone sympathetic
ear), listen to water, use your words

Visual
look at/read a book, look outside, go to your happy place, watch an
aquarium

Creative
draw a picture (mad picture), make something (craft or cook), write a
letter (journal), write/draw on paper and throw it away

Self-nurturing
get a hug, get a snack (hungry? – low blood sugar; careful, don't just
offer food as substitute), take a warm bath

Physical
(these ideas can be better than a time-out) run, shake (hands or all
over, like a wet puppy), relax muscles (melt like a snowman), breathe
(pretend to be a balloon and then blow bubbles), hug yourself, hug a
critter, playdough, float like a feather, massage

Humor
watch a funny video (funniest animals), make silly faces, read a funny
book, find humor in a situation

**Use different calming techniques for anger, versus anxiety, versus
sadness.

**For frustration with toys, ask what you can do different next time.

**With younger kids, experiment with what works. For older kids, don’t
forget to communicate – ask them what works.

Pick out a couple of self-calming techniques to suggest ahead of time
(for, or with your child depending on age). Observe your child. They
may have come up with something on their own. Consider the types of
stress. You may want to offer different self-calming choices for anger
or frustration than you would for being anxious.

What could we do different next time? Talk about it when both of you
are calm.

Kids go through three stages as they learn self-calming skills:

1. They learn the activity itself. If a child can’t do the activity
easily when calm, asking him/her what to do when upset will increase
anger or frustration rather than decrease it.

2. They notice that doing an activity changes how they feel.

3. They realize that they can use a specific activity to intentionally
change how they feel.

Teaching Breathing

Ballooning

When you balloon, you breathe in (deeply) and as you breath in you
start with your arms at your sides and raise them up parallel to
your shoulders and up over your head. Then you blow it all out,
make it exaggerated like a balloon spewing out all the air. The
kids really like it and it really lowers tension.

Draining

When you drain, you put both hands out in front of you, you twist (and
twist, and twist and twist) your hands around like you were turning
off water and you screw your face all up, then you blow the air out
through your lips (I know... there will be a little spit!) but the
kids really like that one and you can feel the stress and tension
leaving your own body! (automatic stress relief!)

Then when he is upset, you can say *balloon* or *drain* to remind him
to breathe

Some books to read with him:

When Sophie Gets Angry, Really, Really Angry by Molly Bang
That Makes Me Mad! by Steven Kroll
I Was So Mad by Norma Simon
It's Hard to Be Five : Learning How to Work My Control Panel by Jamie
Lee Curtis
How to Take the Grrrr Out of Anger by Elizabeth Verdick
A Volcano in My Tummy : Helping Children to Handle Anger by Eliane
Whitehouse
Don't Pop Your Cork on Mondays!: The Children's Anti-Stress Book by
Adolph Mose
I Can't Wait by Elizabeth Crary
I Want It by Elizabeth Crary

For yourself, you may want to read:
The Explosive Child: A New Approach for Understanding and Parenting
Easily Frustrated, Chronically Inflexible Children

Good Luck!


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Thanks Dorothy! These are some great suggestions. I think the
calming techniques are what's been missing in my parenting toolbox. I
remember now from my childhood, the only calming technique that were
effective on myself as a child were cold showers. This is a bit
drastic, and I don't think we're there yet, but the breathing games
sound like fun. I just wont let on that they are a behaviour
management tool, and start off as a game.

I understand your point about the length of time for a punishment, and
we do use this technique as a starting point. However, the boys very
rarely are allowed to play computer games during the week, and the
severity of the punishment was in response to his escalating bad
behaviour. Normally we try to ignore escalation, and know not to
reward it.

I guess I glossed over the details of the session with the speech
therapist. We were very clear and direct with what we meant by
'good'. We were concerned that he lacked the confidence to attempt
the activities and that they were overwhelming, so we compromised with
him and reduced the activities making them seem more manageable. (I
know that he can do the activities, he is doing pre-school level
activities, and he has only just started kindergarten. He can count
extremely well, and can write his own name.) But by this stage he had
made up his mind, and was determined not to be properly assessed. His
mother and I were eventually able to get him to talk a little, so the
session was not a complete waste, however he did not want to interact
with the therapist.

Dominic.

Dom wrote:

Rosalie,

Trying to enforce our directions normally result in tantrums. We can
handle them and back each other up emotionally. He will usually give
up crying and screaming after an hour or so, and will often fall
asleep from exhaustion.

That isn't what I meant by 'enforce'. I meant that if he refused to
sit in the car seat, you strap him in without paying any attention to
the crying etc.

This happened after the visit to the speech
therapist. We told him he could play the Nintendo in the afternoon if
he was good, then when we left he wanted to play the Nintendo, and we

I agree with Dorothy - you weren't specific enough about 'good', and
the reward wasn't immediate enough.

said no, not until he's completed the assesment, which hopefully will
be next Monday. This prompted severe protests, screaming, kicking,
crying etc. He kept this up for an hour, then tried it some more on
the following day, though for not as long. I expect there will be

The following day?? What happened the following day? Did he ask
again to play with the nintendo or what?

more over the coming week. When asked if he will cooperate with the
speech therapist next time, the answer is a stubborn "No!" with arms
crossed, and a grumpy look on his face. If this behaviour wasn't so

What happens if you ask him a question that he wants to answer yes?
Some kids just can't say anything but no.

common it would be quite funny.

Have you asked your parents if they had to deal with similar behavior
from either of you or any of your siblings, and if so, how did they
handle it?

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
I have a 6yo and 4yo, both boys. The younger is extremely stubborn,
and his mother and I are finding it near impossible to get him to do
anything he doesn't want to do. We have tried rewards/bribery,
punishments like removing favourite toys, exclusion, encouragement,
and nothing seems to work. He seems to find satisfaction in resisting
our directions regardless of the consequences or benefits.

Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have never seen a
child as stubborn. How can we make him more compliant, but not break
his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it seems you have
ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive spanking of a child for
severe misbehavior will have bad long-term consequences. Some research
supporting this belief is at http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/ .

http://faculty.biola.edu/paulp/mappvalsum.pdf
Comparing Child Outcomes of Physical Punishment and Alternative
Disciplinary
Tactics: A Meta-Analysis
Robert E. Larzelere and Brett R. Kuhn
March 31, 2007
Executive Summary
Drs. Robert Larzelere (Oklahoma State Univ.) and Brett Kuhn (Univ. of
Nebraska
Medical Center) published the first scientific review of studies of
physical discipline
that compared the child outcomes of its use directly with outcomes of
alternative
disciplinary tactics used by parents.Reviewing fifty years of research
on child
discipline, they identified 26 relevant studies on child outcomes of
physical
punishment. Their conclusion: Child outcomes of physical discipline
depend on how
it is applied. The outcomes of physical discipline compared
unfavorably with
alternative disciplinary tactics only when it was the primary
disciplinary method or
was too severe (such as beating up a child or striking the face or
head). The
outcomes of "customary" physical discipline were neither better nor
worse than for
any alternative tactic, except for one study favoring physical
discipline for reducing
drug abuse. They also identified an optimal type of physical
discipline, called
conditional spanking, which led to better child outcomes than 10 of 13
alternative
disciplinary tactics and produced outcomes equivalent to those of the
remaining
three tactics. Conditional spanking is nonabusive, used when a child
responds
defiantly to milder disciplinary tactics such as time out (based on
research on 2- to
6-year-olds). "Nonabusive" is defined as about 2 open-hand swats to
the buttocks
when a parent is not angrily out of control. Conditional spanking
teaches a child to
cooperate with the milder disciplinary tactic, thereby making spanking
less necessary
in the future.

Beliavsky wrote in

oups.com:

On Feb 18, 7:43 pm, Dom wrote:
Any ideas? We have had professionals tell us they have
never seen a child as stubborn. How can we make him more
compliant, but not break his spirit?

You have not mentioned spanking as a punishment, so it
seems you have ruled that out. I don't think non-abusive
spanking of a child for severe misbehavior will have bad
long-term consequences.

i don't think you think much at all. you form an opinion &
then look for *anything* that supports your opinion, even if
you have to deliberately misread it to validate your thoughts.
the OPs child is not severely misbehaving, he's *stubborn*.
there's a huge difference. since they are having him eveluated
by a speech therapist, there are, most likely, communication
difficulties that the child is having. you may have no idea
just how frustrating that can be to a child, and it's a
frequent cause of acting out behavior.
to the OP, have you also thought to have your son tested for
hearing &/or auditory processing issues? he may not be hearing
what you are actually saying to him & that can be causing
problems when he thinks he's following what you asked, but
isn't because he totally misheard.
lee
--
Last night while sitting in my chair
I pinged a host that wasn't there
It wasn't there again today
The host resolved to NSA.