128 students suspended at Ind. school

On 1 Sep 2006 04:41:10 -0700, wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 31 Aug 2006 06:37:35 -0700, wrote:

Like I said, you've never been that poor. It's not about being so
proud you'd let your child flunk rather than ask. This issue isn't as
cut and dried as some of you would like to think it is.

Fine. But in that case it's problem that has no solution. These kids
are doomed. Their parents can't afford school supplies and don't have
the ability to plan ahead to save for them. The entire family is too
proud to ask for help, so the school district or local charities cannot
provide the supplies. So the kid doesn't have supplies and fails, NOT
because he's marked tardy when he goes to his locker, but because he is
not able to complete the assignments without writing implements and
paper.

You sure love to stretch, don't you?

How is this a stretch? You are asserting that there are students who
can't afford pencils and notebooks, and their parents either don't care
enough to notice ask for help, or are too proud to ask for or accept
it. So, it's a reasonable question, what can be done for those
students? It is not possible to complete school in our society without
pencils and paper. So how do we keep these students from failing?

I don't have all the answers. I don't think anyone does. But I don't
think these students are "doomed".

Someone else suggested asking the counselor about it, but in most
schools (esp. in poor districts) the counselors each have to deal with
the needs of hundreds, if not thousands of students. In a grade school
there may be only one counselor for the entire school. So the
counselor isn't any more likely to know the family's situation than the
teacher. (Probably less.)

Naomi

Nan

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just generally
think of bullying as being several people ganging up on one, or one person
being belligerent while the other is cowering. This situation seemed much
more like a pretty even match between two people. And in that situation,
I (obviously don't mind my own business like I should) try to play
peacemaker.

No, it wasn't only one person, there were others as well. That's why I felt
the need to step in.

Jen

"Jen" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just
generally think of bullying as being several people ganging up on one, or
one person being belligerent while the other is cowering. This situation
seemed much more like a pretty even match between two people. And in
that situation, I (obviously don't mind my own business like I should)
try to play peacemaker.

No, it wasn't only one person, there were others as well. That's why I
felt the need to step in.

I also meant to say, she sounded *cornered*, and was constantly defending
herself, and explaining herself.

Jen

On 1 Sep 2006 04:58:31 -0700, wrote:


Nan wrote:
On 31 Aug 2006 08:45:50 -0700, wrote:


Barbara wrote:


Its difficult to comprehend the extent of poverty in even so-called
first-world countries. I recall a friend working on a legal aid case.
The client lived in an SRO (at least he wasn't homeless) with no access
to a kitchen or means to cook. He testified that he ate lunch most
days and Dunkin Donuts or another inexpensive fast food place. The ALJ
kept asking where he ate his other meals. The guy just didn't get it.
There WERE no other meals. That's all he could afford each day -- a
cheap junkie lunch. That guy didn't have kids, but if he had, there
might not have BEEN an extra dime each week.

But if he had kids there would have been food stamps. The kids would
have gotten free breakfasts and lunches at school.

IF he was aware of such programs, wasn't illiterate and therefore able
to read forms that came home with the child, and was able to even
provide the documentation necessary to receive public assistance.

He was obviously able to apply to legal aid.

Yes, I know, I was pointing this out as a general comment that would
apply to others.

You're not understanding that there is an entire class of families
that fall through the cracks. They're the Working Poor. They make
too much money to receive assistance programs, but can't afford much
beyond basic necessities. What would you have them do? Quit their
jobs to receive help?


A guy living in an SRO and eating one meal a day at Dunkin' Donuts is
almost certainly NOT 'the working poor.'

I agree. I put it in this response for lack of a better place. I
apologize if it was confusing.

There happen to have sitting here by the computer the papers sent home
with SHaina at the beginning of the year about applying for free school
lunches and textbooks. THe income cut off for a family of 3 is $2,560
a month. That's over $30,000 a year. In this city, you can rent a 2
bedroom apartment for under $600 a month. (Oh, and no special
documentation is required. You just fill out the form and send it in.)

Again, there are certainly families in difficult straits. They need to
ask for help. If they can't read the forms, they contact the school
and ask for help with the forms. (Oh, and the form has a spanish and
french translation on the bottom telling the reader to call for
assistance if needed.)

I agree that the need to ask for help is there.... I'm just pointing
out that there are circumstances unique to some families that may
prevent that.

For an example: We have a neighbor family with 6 children that
recently got their utilities turned off. I noticed the utilities
still hadn't been turned on after a week. I don't speak Spanish and
they don't speak English, so the language barrier meant I couldn't ask
if they knew of assistance programs. I ended up having another
neighbor translate, and asked certain agencies to mail forms in
spanish to me so I could give them the forms.

Turns out they didn't know they could get Energy Assitance to pay
their bill. Or that they probably qualified for food stamps and
medicaid or at least free dental at the clinic for the kids and WIC
for the babies.

My point (yes there is one G) is that while my comment doesn't apply
to school supplies directly, that there are situations in which some
families aren't aware of assistance. And I think to say, 'well, the
help is out there' is an assumption that judges people and I don't
think it's good to make that assumption.

Nan

"nimue" wrote in message
...

She was
being bullied by a few people and I felt she needed some support.

I did and I appreciate it. It restored my faith in humanity. I don't
think
I've ever received that kind of support in all my years on usenet.

That is so sad. The very first time I tried usenet I was bullied, and there
were only a few short comments in my defence, and the others just kept
going. I was constantly re explaining myself, and defending myself. I got
so upset, I cried for days and didn't get much sleep or anything. I never
went back to that group, and I was very wary of other groups. But I found
that not all of them were that bad. and a lot of people didn't agree with
bullying, but just stay out of it. I'm glad I helped you.

Jen

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 12:58:11 GMT, "Jen"
wrote:


"Jen" wrote in message
...

"bizby40" wrote in message
...

"Jen" wrote in message
...
I'm sorry, but I've always been a believer that the people who stand by
and watch are just as bad as the bullies themselves.

lol -- I've been called a netnanny and a netcop before for the same
reason. I too can't stand to see someone being bullied. I just
generally think of bullying as being several people ganging up on one, or
one person being belligerent while the other is cowering. This situation
seemed much more like a pretty even match between two people. And in
that situation, I (obviously don't mind my own business like I should)
try to play peacemaker.

No, it wasn't only one person, there were others as well. That's why I
felt the need to step in.

I also meant to say, she sounded *cornered*, and was constantly defending
herself, and explaining herself.

Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally. I have no trouble defending someone I perceive as
being treated unfairly.
I like a good debate as well as anyone, but it doesn't need to spiral
down into what this discussion turned into.

Hey Barbara, if you haven't killfiled me, I apologize for my words
yesterday.

Nan

Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

I happen to believe that ALL human beings have certain capabilities,
and while some will fail despite their best efforts, many people simply
choose to not put out their best efforts. Because, of course, there are
many deeply poor people who DO succeed. Who care enough for their
children that they do what is necessary to help their children succeed.

(BTW, having checked, a family of 3 in Indiana is eligible for food
stamps if they make under about 21,000/year. The family can get up to
$300 a month in stamps. That, with those free school breakfasts and
lunches available at that income level, should provide ample food for
the family, without having to miss a meal to buy a packet of pens.)
(Oh, and you can actually rent a nice 2 br apt. in this town for around
$450-$500, a one bedroom for under $400.)

Naomi


Nan

My point (yes there is one G) is that while my comment doesn't apply
to school supplies directly, that there are situations in which some
families aren't aware of assistance. And I think to say, 'well, the
help is out there' is an assumption that judges people and I don't
think it's good to make that assumption.

Well see you are doing your part by telling them where to get help.

Tori

"Nan" wrote in message
...
Yep. Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids seems to be that new or
sporadic posters seem to get targeted, whether intentionally or
unintentionally.

Sometimes the dynamic of misc.kids is that regulars get into long and
sometimes intense arguments. This group has evolved into more of a
debating society than a social or support group. At one point there
used to be many more ctts and cttd posts -- even the occasional birth
story. While we still field "advice" questions such as "Help! My 2
year old isn't sleeping!" an increasingly large part of this group has
become debates on philosophical or political questions. The
unfortunate part is that we don't have a moderator -- and I mean
moderator in the real life sense of "someone to keep the conversation
on track" rather than the Usenet "someone to censor objectionable
posts" sense -- so often these debates go off track and get into name
calling and hurt feelings.

I'm not complaining mind you -- I found the birth stories boring even
why my kids were infants! So I think this group is more interesting
to me than alt.mothers would be. That's the nature of Usenet -- if
you don't like one group, you find another you like better. Note that
I'm not trying to tell you or nimue or anyone else to leave. That's
the other nature of Usenet -- you can post what you want. If enough
people started posting the birth stories and cttx posts, the nature of
this newsgroup would swing back again.

Nimue may be new to this group, but she's not a net newbie. I read
some of her stuff on the cf newsgroup, and she doesn't seem to shy
away from debate. I think she can hold her own. I didn't read much,
but I liked what I read, and really respected the fact that she
sometimes took on the more radical child-free elements. I would be
happy to have her stick around if she chooses to do so, because we
have a lot of education-related threads, and it's nice having
teachers' perspectives.

Bizby

wrote:
Nan wrote:
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 01:29:19 GMT, "toypup"
wrote:


You don't need all the answers. If you don't have the answers, then the
solutions that are presented are the only ones that we know of that can be
practically applied. You can't argue that we can't use those solutions
without presenting something of your own, because what can we do? We are
not saying absolutely everyone can buy the supplies, just that most poor
people, even on the bottom rungs, can come up with the basics; and those who
can't can get some help from school or other resource.

Nobody is asking you to use solutions. Only that you understand your
"solutions" won't fit everyone. You can't imagine any other concept
than what you know. The world is much bigger than your tiny corner in
which your perceptions fit only you and those you know.

Then you are agreeing that there are no solutions? That the poorest of
the poor (and the illiterate 'working poor' who can't read forms)
will always fail?

Even a short reading of this thread will tell you that I can't speak
for Nan. ;- But, no, I don't think that's right. I don't think that
the only two possibilities are *I know how to fix that* and *oh woe is
me, there's no solution* I think that sometimes we have to recognize a
problem, recognize that whatever we're doing now isn't solving it, and
experiment, brainstorm, study, etc to find another way. The fact that
*I* can't solve it doesn't mean that we give up, or that we're already
doing the best we can. Of course, it also doesn't mean that we stop
doing the best that we can -- which may be status quo -- while we work
to make improvements.

In terms of school, I think that teachers have, for many years, filled
in many of the gaps we're discussing, esp for the youngest kids. I
don't find that an optimal solution simply because I don't think its
fair for teachers to have to reach into their own pockets for these
things. But yes, in the end, you're not going to find a lot of first
graders without pencils or notebooks.

I happen to believe that ALL human beings have certain capabilities,
and while some will fail despite their best efforts, many people simply
choose to not put out their best efforts. Because, of course, there are
many deeply poor people who DO succeed. Who care enough for their
children that they do what is necessary to help their children succeed.

But there are even more people who have butted their heads against the
wall for so long that they give up. People who are disabled (as was
the man I discussed earlier). Illiterate. Unable to speak or
understand English. Who lack life skills. (I once represented a child
whose mother had never been able to get her and her sister to school on
the same day because they attended different schools. It never
occurred to her to take BOTH kids out, walk to the first school, and
continue on to the second.) And yes, there are people who are lazy,
drug addicts, or plain old don't care about their kids. I'm not
willing to abandon the KIDS because of the parents.

(BTW, having checked, a family of 3 in Indiana is eligible for food
stamps if they make under about 21,000/year. The family can get up to
$300 a month in stamps. That, with those free school breakfasts and
lunches available at that income level, should provide ample food for
the family, without having to miss a meal to buy a packet of pens.)
(Oh, and you can actually rent a nice 2 br apt. in this town for around
$450-$500, a one bedroom for under $400.)

Its been a while since I've worked legal aid. But back in the day, you
couldn't get benefits if you didn't have an address. And you couldn't
get an apartment without first/last/security deposit. Of course, if
you had *that* kind of money, you were going to go over the asset
limits and be denied benefits. The government was never exactly
throwing money at people; benefits were not all that easy to get.

I really *do* wish that the answers were as easy as you'd like them to
be, but all I have to do is look out at some of the communities in the
cities where I've lived (NY, Boston, Philly) to know that they're not.

Barbara