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#601
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:28:30 -0500, toto wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:18:55 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: Some things I just know, and don't have the remotest idea when I learned them and from whom or what. And, of course, you have no idea whether or not they are really true or even whether or not they can be reasonably deduced in a valid manner. I know that they are true and rational. You mean you don't know anything and have to look up everything? Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
#602
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On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:25:57 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: I do. Regularly. And I read the results, and I comprehend what I read. Unlike you, or you'd be able to post evidence. I'm not going to go to the web and find evidence for everything I say on here or in my life off the newsgroups. That would be ridiculous and silly. Instead, YOU look ridiculous and silly, when we do the research and show yet again that you are full of ****. If you want to find something about anything I say you will just have to go look it up yourself. I never heard of such a thing. Running and looking up everything someone says. When someone has as little credibility as you, and makes statements which I know to be false, I identify them. So you know things without looking them up, but I don't know anything and have to look everything up. Very innnnnnnnnnteressssssssstinnnnnnnnngggggggg. :-) If I am not sure, I'll look it up rather than look like the fool you are. Calling me names and denial, denial, denial will not solve your problems. It's easy to see why Bill Cosby is disgusted because after several generations many blacks have not learned how to pronounce "police" and "President", etc., whereas Hispanics and Asians learn in just a few seconds. Some things I just know, and don't have the remotest idea when I learned them and from whom or what. And as we've shown, most of what you "know" is folk myth or absolute falsehood. I'm not always right, but most of the time I am. You don't have to always be right, just most of the time, and can get along very well. If you are worried about something, then look it up. However, let me warn you. Just because you find something on the web does not mean that it's true. Writing something down doesn't make it true. You must pick reliable sources. lojbab Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
#603
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:28:30 -0500, toto wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:18:55 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: Some things I just know, and don't have the remotest idea when I learned them and from whom or what. And, of course, you have no idea whether or not they are really true or even whether or not they can be reasonably deduced in a valid manner. I know that they are true and rational. You mean you don't know anything and have to look up everything? Like most intelligent people, she values her credibility and supports her claims with references. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
#604
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:53 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:01:16 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: The fact that people in parts of Africa own slaves or commit atrocities is equally irrelevant--the civilizations you admire having created things of "importance" (Greeks, Romans, et al.) did the same things. Nor are these behaviors limited to sub-Saharan Africa in modern times. Well, now, we are talking about today, not thousands of years ago, etc. What other countries have slaves today. I'm sure there may be a few if you look real hard. Today, black people have black slaves in Mauritania, southwest of Algeria. I knew there would be another savage place that had slavery. De factor slavery still exists in the US. This particular acticle from February of this year discusses slavery/human bondage in Florida: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/...rafficking.ap/. Of course, it's not legal, but I'm not sure it's legal in Mauritania, either. That's silly. We're not talking about prostitution to pay off debts, etc. Oh, so it's okay to sell people into slavery if they owe you money? Gotcha. They have the real thing in Mauritania and have had it for thousands of years in Sudan. Lots of children slaves. So what? "High" cultures the world over (and particularly in Europe) had slavery (and children slaves) for thousands of years. One of the reasons that the wealthy in the Greek and Roman culture (who produced most of the art and literature that we admire today) *were* wealthy was because they relied on slave labor to produce surplus goods and earn their money for them. Wow, what a wonderful achievement, eh? So, is Florida a "savage" place, too? I'm sure they have doo doo too. But, that's about all the savages in Africa have produced for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Nonsense. From http://www.worldbank.org/afr/finding...sh/find11.htm: "Africa's rich and varied cultural heritage finds expression in a wide variety of arts and crafts. Cultural property is preserved in paleontological, archaeological, historical, and sacred sites, as well as in museums, residences, and the daily life of the people. African archaeology traces the history of human evolution from its very beginning, recording such significant cultural achievements as the development and use of tools, the independent invention of agriculture, long distance trade, fine arts as illustrated by early rock paintings, metalworking, and urban settlements. Contemporary architecture, paintings, sculptures, textiles, and other cultural artifacts draw on a rich variety of traditions, many of which are still an integral part of daily life. Many thousands of cultural sites have been identified in Africa, often clustered along coastal areas, river basins, or major transportation axes. Many others may exist unknown to the outside world. Archaeological studies conducted as part of project environmental assessments can provide valuable information concerning the nature and distribution of human activity in the area in ancient times. Such surveys have been conducted, for example, in the Volta Basin, in the area to be flooded by the Kafue Dam in Zambia, as part of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project, and for the Tuli Block Roads Project in Botswana. The UNESCO World Heritage Convention has been ratified by 28 African countries, listed in the handbook. Under the convention, international assistance can be secured by governments to facilitate the protection of sites that have been registered as World Heritage Sites. Currently listed World Cultural Heritage sites in Africa include the royal palaces of Abomey, Benin; the rock churches of Ethiopia; Ashante traditional buildings in Ghana; the ancient towns of Djenne and Timbuktu and the cliff of Mandiagara in Mali; the island of Mozambique, Mozambique; Goree Island in Senegal; the ruins of Kilwa Kisiwani and Songo Mnara, Tanzania; and Great Zimbabwe and Khami Ruins National Monuments in Zimbabwe." -- Be well, Barbara Mom to Sin (Vernon, 2), Misery (Aurora, 4), and the Rising Son (Julian, 6) Aurora (in the bathroom with her dad)--"It looks like an elephant, Daddy." Me (later)--"You should feel flattered." All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
#605
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On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:35:26 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:53 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 05 Jun 2004 15:01:16 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: The fact that people in parts of Africa own slaves or commit atrocities is equally irrelevant--the civilizations you admire having created things of "importance" (Greeks, Romans, et al.) did the same things. Nor are these behaviors limited to sub-Saharan Africa in modern times. Well, now, we are talking about today, not thousands of years ago, etc. What other countries have slaves today. I'm sure there may be a few if you look real hard. Today, black people have black slaves in Mauritania, southwest of Algeria. I knew there would be another savage place that had slavery. De factor slavery still exists in the US. This particular acticle from February of this year discusses slavery/human bondage in Florida: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/...rafficking.ap/. Of course, it's not legal, but I'm not sure it's legal in Mauritania, either. That's silly. We're not talking about prostitution to pay off debts, etc. Oh, so it's okay to sell people into slavery if they owe you money? Gotcha. They have the real thing in Mauritania and have had it for thousands of years in Sudan. Lots of children slaves. So what? "High" cultures the world over (and particularly in Europe) had slavery (and children slaves) for thousands of years. Well, we are talking about now. (today) Who else still has slavery other than the blacks in Sudan and Mauritania? One of the reasons that the wealthy in the Greek and Roman culture (who produced most of the art and literature that we admire today) *were* wealthy was because they relied on slave labor to produce surplus goods and earn their money for them. The Greeks had a great civilization. Much greater than the Romans. They gave us many, many things. Not just some art and some literature. The art and literature was of minor importance compared with their other contributions. Of course, there was philosophy, and: "The Golden Age of Greek science came in the Hellenistic period, with the greatest advances in mathematics. The geometry theories published by Euclid about 300 bc still endure. Archimedes (287-212 bc) calculated the value of pi (the ratio of the circumference of a circle to its diameter) and invented fluid mechanics. Aristarchus, early in the 3rd century bc, argued that the earth revolved around the sun, while Eratosthenes accurately calculated the circumference of the earth. Also in the 3rd century bc, Ctesibius invented machines operated by air and water pressure; Hero later built a rotating sphere powered by steam. These inventions did not lead to practical uses because the technology did not yet exist to produce the pipes, fittings, and screws needed to build powerful machines. Military technology vaulted ahead with the invention of huge catapults and wheeled towers to batter down city walls. Finally, medical scientists made many discoveries, such as the significance of the pulse and the nervous system." There was architecture. "The importance of Greek art and architecture for the history of Western civilization can hardly be overstated, for the Greeks established many of the most enduring themes, attitudes, and forms of Western culture. Wow, what a wonderful achievement, eh? So, is Florida a "savage" place, too? I'm sure they have doo doo too. But, that's about all the savages in Africa have produced for thousands and thousands and thousands and thousands of years. Nonsense. From http://www.worldbank.org/afr/finding...sh/find11.htm: "Africa's rich and varied cultural heritage finds expression in a wide variety of arts and crafts. Cultural property is preserved in paleontological, archaeological, historical, and sacred sites, as well as in museums, residences, and the daily life of the people. African archaeology traces the history of human evolution from its very beginning, recording such significant cultural achievements as the development and use of tools, the independent invention of agriculture, Invented agriculture? Heheheheheheheheheh. Really????????? Did they put a fish in the hole with corn seeds to make it grow better like the American aborigines? long distance trade, How long a distance? About as far as you could hear their drums? fine arts as illustrated by early rock paintings, Were these those paintings inside of caves? metalworking, and urban settlements. I don't think they even knew what metal was. Contemporary architecture, Was that the mud and straw huts? paintings, sculptures, textiles, and other cultural artifacts draw on a rich variety of traditions, many of which are still an integral part of daily life. Let's not bull **** with a lot of meaningless rhetoric. Be specific. Many thousands of cultural sites have been identified in Africa, often clustered along coastal areas, river basins, or major transportation axes. Any place that they had a tribal village was a cultural site. Many others may exist unknown to the outside world. Archaeological studies conducted as part of project environmental assessments can provide valuable information concerning the nature and distribution of human activity in the area in ancient times. Tell me what marvels were discovered in these digs. Such surveys have been conducted, for example, in the Volta Basin, in the area to be flooded by the Kafue Dam in Zambia, as part of the Lesotho Highlands Water Project, and for the Tuli Block Roads Project in Botswana. What in the world does a study have to do with what these savages did other than run around naked raping and pillaging and hunting wildebeest? The UNESCO World Heritage Convention has been ratified by 28 African countries, listed in the handbook. Under the convention, international assistance can be secured by governments to facilitate the protection of sites that have been registered as World Heritage Sites. Currently listed World Cultural Heritage sites in Africa include the royal palaces of Abomey, Benin; the rock churches of Ethiopia; Ashante traditional buildings in Ghana; the ancient towns of Djenne and Timbuktu and the cliff of Mandiagara in Mali; the island of Mozambique, Mozambique; Goree Island in Senegal; the ruins of Kilwa Kisiwani and Songo Mnara, Tanzania; and Great Zimbabwe and Khami Ruins National Monuments in Zimbabwe." I'm afraid that there, evidently, was not anything in these sites of any interest to anyone. If there had been then people would know about them. What issues of National Geographic were all of these sites in? I know about the ugly fat wooden carvings of figures with big butts, etc. Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
#606
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 10:30:36 -0400, Bob LeChevalier
wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:28:30 -0500, toto wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:18:55 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: Some things I just know, and don't have the remotest idea when I learned them and from whom or what. And, of course, you have no idea whether or not they are really true or even whether or not they can be reasonably deduced in a valid manner. I know that they are true and rational. You mean you don't know anything and have to look up everything? Like most intelligent people, she values her credibility and supports her claims with references. That's horrible. She has to show where someone else wrote it down for people to believe her? How pitiful. Poor little girl/woman. lojbab Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
#607
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 22:25:57 -0400, Bob LeChevalier wrote: When someone has as little credibility as you, and makes statements which I know to be false, I identify them. So you know things without looking them up, but I don't know anything and have to look everything up. Very innnnnnnnnnteressssssssstinnnnnnnnngggggggg. :-) I know things and I look them up anyway. I *learn* by doing so. If I am not sure, I'll look it up rather than look like the fool you are. Calling me names and denial, denial, denial will not solve your problems. Idiots like you ARE a problem. Not a particularly important one, since you ARE idiots. But one best addressed on Usenet in the way I do. It's easy to see why Bill Cosby is disgusted because after several generations many blacks have not learned how to pronounce "police" and "President", etc., I await your evidence that Bill Cosby has any problem with how blacks pronounce words. whereas Hispanics and Asians learn in just a few seconds. I await your evidence of this. And as we've shown, most of what you "know" is folk myth or absolute falsehood. I'm not always right, but most of the time I am. Your track record in this discussion has been abysmal. You haven't gotten anything right yet, so far as I know. You don't have to always be right, just most of the time, and can get along very well. Studied mediocrity is probably the best you can aspire to, but you have a lot of study needed to achieve it. If you are worried about something, then look it up. However, let me warn you. Just because you find something on the web does not mean that it's true. Correct. That is why I also evaluate the sources, and check them. Writing something down doesn't make it true. You must pick reliable sources. When I use an unreliable source, I expect to be called on it. lojbab -- lojbab Bob LeChevalier, Founder, The Logical Language Group (Opinions are my own; I do not speak for the organization.) Artificial language Loglan/Lojban: http://www.lojban.org |
#608
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Holger Dansk wrote:
On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:35:26 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:53 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: Well, now, we are talking about today, not thousands of years ago, etc. What other countries have slaves today. I'm sure there may be a few if you look real hard. Today, black people have black slaves in Mauritania, southwest of Algeria. I knew there would be another savage place that had slavery. De factor slavery still exists in the US. This particular acticle from February of this year discusses slavery/human bondage in Florida: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/...rafficking.ap/. Of course, it's not legal, but I'm not sure it's legal in Mauritania, either. That's silly. We're not talking about prostitution to pay off debts, etc. Oh, so it's okay to sell people into slavery if they owe you money? Gotcha. They have the real thing in Mauritania and have had it for thousands of years in Sudan. Lots of children slaves. So what? "High" cultures the world over (and particularly in Europe) had slavery (and children slaves) for thousands of years. Well, we are talking about now. (today) And that matters why, exactly? Who else still has slavery other than the blacks in Sudan and Mauritania? People all over the world, hon. Legally or illegally, slavery exists on every part of the globe. Deal with it. One of the reasons that the wealthy in the Greek and Roman culture (who produced most of the art and literature that we admire today) *were* wealthy was because they relied on slave labor to produce surplus goods and earn their money for them. The Greeks had a great civilization. Much greater than the Romans. So, you view Republican democracy--which the Romans invented and upon which all modern systems of democracy are based--as not a particularly great accomplishment? There was architecture. "The importance of Greek art and architecture for the history of Western civilization can hardly be overstated, for the Greeks established many of the most enduring themes, attitudes, and forms of Western culture. Pish-tosh. How many modern buildings do you see that look like Greek temples? How many do you see that use domes? Now, who figured out the dome? (Hint: not the Greeks.) Nonsense. From http://www.worldbank.org/afr/finding...sh/find11.htm: "Africa's rich and varied cultural heritage finds expression in a wide variety of arts and crafts. Cultural property is preserved in paleontological, archaeological, historical, and sacred sites, as well as in museums, residences, and the daily life of the people. African archaeology traces the history of human evolution from its very beginning, recording such significant cultural achievements as the development and use of tools, the independent invention of agriculture, Invented agriculture? Heheheheheheheheheh. Really????????? Did they put a fish in the hole with corn seeds to make it grow better like the American aborigines? Of course not, since they didn't *have* corn in Africa (or, indeed, anywhere else in the so-called Old World). You've just demonstrated, yet again, your ignorance. The rest of your rant is similar nonsense, since it is not based on any fact whatsoever but on your pitiful rantings and ravings. When you're willing to support your claim that Africans never invented or did anything of value with actual evidence of the facts, then maybe we'll sit up and take notice. Until then, all *you've* managed to produce is, in your own words, doo doo. -- Be well, Barbara All opinions expressed in this post are well-reasoned and insightful. Needless to say, they are not those of my Internet Service Provider, its other subscribers or lackeys. Anyone who says otherwise is itchin' for a fight. -- with apologies to Michael Feldman |
#609
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On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 13:05:21 -0700, "Circe" wrote:
Holger Dansk wrote: On Mon, 7 Jun 2004 09:35:26 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: On Sat, 5 Jun 2004 11:22:53 -0700, "Circe" wrote: Holger Dansk wrote: Well, now, we are talking about today, not thousands of years ago, etc. What other countries have slaves today. I'm sure there may be a few if you look real hard. Today, black people have black slaves in Mauritania, southwest of Algeria. I knew there would be another savage place that had slavery. De factor slavery still exists in the US. This particular acticle from February of this year discusses slavery/human bondage in Florida: http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/02/...rafficking.ap/. Of course, it's not legal, but I'm not sure it's legal in Mauritania, either. That's silly. We're not talking about prostitution to pay off debts, etc. Oh, so it's okay to sell people into slavery if they owe you money? Gotcha. They have the real thing in Mauritania and have had it for thousands of years in Sudan. Lots of children slaves. So what? "High" cultures the world over (and particularly in Europe) had slavery (and children slaves) for thousands of years. Well, we are talking about now. (today) And that matters why, exactly? Well, some cultures have learned that slavery is not a good thing. Who else still has slavery other than the blacks in Sudan and Mauritania? People all over the world, hon. Legally or illegally, slavery exists on every part of the globe. Deal with it. So, you don't know of any other countries and/or cultures. One of the reasons that the wealthy in the Greek and Roman culture (who produced most of the art and literature that we admire today) *were* wealthy was because they relied on slave labor to produce surplus goods and earn their money for them. The Greeks had a great civilization. Much greater than the Romans. So, you view Republican democracy--which the Romans invented and upon which all modern systems of democracy are based--as not a particularly great accomplishment? Thomas Jefferson and James Madison studied Aristotle. Aristotle was Greek. The Romans did not invent anything much. They were pretty good engineers. The aqueducts were nice. "Aristotle, who was a student of Greek philosopher Plato, praised reason and moderation as practical guides to life. Known to medieval intellectuals as simply “the Philosopher,” Aristotle is possibly the greatest thinker in Western history and the single greatest influence on Western intellectual development." Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Jefferson also studied John Locke, an English philosopher who studied Aristotle. "James Madison, often called the father of the U.S. Constitution, defined a republic in terms similar to those of Aristotle's polity. In his view, republics were systems of government that permitted direct or indirect control by the people over those who govern. He did, however, warn against the effects of “majority factions” and emphasized the rights of minorities. The Madisonian concept of republicanism parallels Aristotle's vision of polity in many important dimensions, and both are essentially different from Plato's. Madison and Aristotle were concerned with the means by which just and stable rule by the many could be secured. To this end Aristotle relied on a predominant middle class, Madison on an “extended” republic, in which varied interests would check and control one another. Madison also emphasized election of representatives by the people. These representatives, he believed, would be less likely to sacrifice the “public good” than the majority of the people. “Pure democracies,” in which the people ruled directly, Madison wrote, “have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention.”" Microsoft® Encarta® Encyclopedia 2002. © 1993-2001 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. There was architecture. "The importance of Greek art and architecture for the history of Western civilization can hardly be overstated, for the Greeks established many of the most enduring themes, attitudes, and forms of Western culture. Pish-tosh. How many modern buildings do you see that look like Greek temples? How many do you see that use domes? Now, who figured out the dome? (Hint: not the Greeks.) Nonsense. From http://www.worldbank.org/afr/finding...sh/find11.htm: "Africa's rich and varied cultural heritage finds expression in a wide variety of arts and crafts. Cultural property is preserved in paleontological, archaeological, historical, and sacred sites, as well as in museums, residences, and the daily life of the people. African archaeology traces the history of human evolution from its very beginning, recording such significant cultural achievements as the development and use of tools, the independent invention of agriculture, Invented agriculture? Heheheheheheheheheh. Really????????? Did they put a fish in the hole with corn seeds to make it grow better like the American aborigines? Of course not, since they didn't *have* corn in Africa (or, indeed, anywhere else in the so-called Old World). You've just demonstrated, yet again, your ignorance. They had corn in America. "Corn is generally regarded as the greatest agricultural contribution of American Indians to the world's diet. It was the major food source for many native groups throughout North and South America. Corn is descended from teosinte, a wild grass that some eight thousand to fifteen thousand years ago began to be modified by human selection. It was probably domesticated in northern Mexico and introduced into the American Southwest by about 4000 b.c. It was a relative latecomer in the Midwest, appearing sometime around 200 b.c." http://college.hmco.com/history/read...odandcuisi.htm The rest of your rant is similar nonsense, since it is not based on any fact whatsoever but on your pitiful rantings and ravings. When you're willing to support your claim that Africans never invented or did anything of value with actual evidence of the facts, then maybe we'll sit up and take notice. If they produced something, please tell us what it was. We are listening. Holger http://www.mindspring.com/~holger1/holger1.htm |
#610
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On Mon, 07 Jun 2004 05:39:18 GMT, Holger Dansk
wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 17:28:30 -0500, toto wrote: On Sun, 06 Jun 2004 20:18:55 GMT, Holger Dansk wrote: Some things I just know, and don't have the remotest idea when I learned them and from whom or what. And, of course, you have no idea whether or not they are really true or even whether or not they can be reasonably deduced in a valid manner. I know that they are true and rational. You mean you don't know anything and have to look up everything? No, I mean that I know where my ideas come from and how to tell whether or not they are logically valid *and* I know what experiences led me to my conclusions. If you don't, then you are flying blind or you accept what authorities (most likely your parents and teachers) told you on faith. -- Dorothy There is no sound, no cry in all the world that can be heard unless someone listens .. The Outer Limits |
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