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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
NOT...
but is consistent, along with Doug and cohorts, with promoting activities that will result in more control by government. The ONLY possible way there could be even minimal effective (and it wouldn't be much) of pretaken DNA samples would be to hold them in a vast database, just like the government is now doing with CRIMINALS. One day the lurkers here, and the folks that have been duped by you propogandists (sorry at it as you are) are going to figure out your agenda, Pineapple and come hunting you. Folks, the core of the anti CPS folks here are fascist wannabees in the grand tradition of the fascist dictator ships we've seen arrise in the last century. They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Mine is making it clearer and clearer what stunk the first time I came across this ng. If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. Ask yourself what is it the priciple players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? Kane |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
Kane writes:
but is consistent, along with Doug and cohorts, with promoting activities that will result in more control by government. Hi, Kane! I am sorry you have misinterpreted my posts. I have tried to make a case against federally mandated child welfare practice of today precisely because it is an unwholesome and abusive misuse of government power. Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. These governmental intrusions upon innocent families are being done under the authorization of CAPTA and ASFA, both federal codes that mandate state policy and practice. One day the lurkers here, and the folks that have been duped by you propogandists (sorry at it as you are) are going to figure out your agenda, Pineapple and come hunting you. Kane, you would be well-served to pay attention to your side of the street. Some of your posts include wording and approaches defined as propaganda. Elements of propaganda include: GLITTERING GENERALITIES -- making unattributed, generalized statements about a group of people or given policy or practice without substantiation. Using rare incidents to generalize across an entire population. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION -- To claim or imply that an debating opponent associates with undesirables; to label an individual based upon her association with others; to claim or imply an opponent is guilty of some wrongdoing based upon the wrongdoing of someone else. "ie: Communists, in MaCarthy's 50's. PERSONAL ATTACK -- Attacking the messenger of information on a given issue rather than debating the issue itself; placing personalities above principals. Name calling. Hints that the proponent of an idea is somehow morally deficient or derranged. DEPERSONALIZATION -- Using terminlogy to imply that an individual expousing ideas is less than human or evil rather than debating the idea. FEAR AND INTIMIDATION -- Suggesting that an opponent is a member of some sinister force that is out to get innocent people. Suggesting that narrative arguing a point the propagandist opposes is less than sincere -- that the opponent really has a hidden agenda he is not disclosing. Folks, the core of the anti CPS folks here are fascist wannabees in the grand tradition of the fascist dictator ships we've seen arrise in the last century. And, above, Kane, you immediately provide us an example of propaganda. They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. What are the names of these "well-integrated groups" and who are these unhealthy "factions" with intrusionary goals? What are the goals? How are the groups integrated? The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Where should they look in their research? What are they to look for, Kane? What is the plot they should search out? Mine is making it clearer and clearer what stunk the first time I came across this ng. What have you discovered in your research? What was your methodology for that research? Where did you look? What were your findings? Without specifics, what we have here is a glittering generality with no substance. Any citations? Any source we should look at in our research? If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. What things do not show themselves in discussions in this newsgroup? What things are these? What things do not connect to the discussion and what does remain after these things are removed? Ask yourself what is it the priciple players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? What should we ask ourselves? Who are the principal players in the "Anti-CPS club"? What do they "NEVER" discuss? Please provide us some information. Some beef. You seem to be making charges here. Do you have any substantation for them? Share with us what evil things you have discovered. And, please, for godsakes show us where we can look to find the truth. Otherwise, what you have provided in this post of yours is propaganda. |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
"Doug" wrote in message nk.net... Kane writes: but is consistent, along with Doug and cohorts, with promoting activities that will result in more control by government. Hi, Kane! I am sorry you have misinterpreted my posts. I have tried to make a case against federally mandated child welfare practice of today precisely because it is an unwholesome and abusive misuse of government power. Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. These governmental intrusions upon innocent families are being done under the authorization of CAPTA and ASFA, both federal codes that mandate state policy and practice. Here we are, once again, with Doug insinuating that these removals are done after the findings of the case. Now, just why is it that Doug perpetuates this ........ "misunderstanding of the facts" shall we say? The answer is quite simple really, once one reads the tenor of Doug's posts over the last 3-4 years. Its for the "Sensationalism" factor. Why stick to the boring old truth when a sensational half truth will do? One day the lurkers here, and the folks that have been duped by you propogandists (sorry at it as you are) are going to figure out your agenda, Pineapple and come hunting you. Kane, you would be well-served to pay attention to your side of the street. Some of your posts include wording and approaches defined as propaganda. Elements of propaganda include: GLITTERING GENERALITIES -- making unattributed, generalized statements about a group of people or given policy or practice without substantiation. Using rare incidents to generalize across an entire population. Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like some of your posts Doug. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION -- To claim or imply that an debating opponent associates with undesirables; to label an individual based upon her association with others; to claim or imply an opponent is guilty of some wrongdoing based upon the wrongdoing of someone else. "ie: Communists, in MaCarthy's 50's. Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like most of your posts Doug PERSONAL ATTACK -- Attacking the messenger of information on a given issue rather than debating the issue itself; placing personalities above principals. Name calling. Hints that the proponent of an idea is somehow morally deficient or derranged. Hmmm, I must admit, this is one area that you do seem to try and avoid. Oh well, we can't all be perfect. DEPERSONALIZATION -- Using terminlogy to imply that an individual expousing ideas is less than human or evil rather than debating the idea. Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like some of your posts Doug FEAR AND INTIMIDATION -- Suggesting that an opponent is a member of some sinister force that is out to get innocent people. Suggesting that narrative arguing a point the propagandist opposes is less than sincere -- that the opponent really has a hidden agenda he is not disclosing. Oh quite. Again, something that you are a past master at here Doug. In the past I have called it "fear mongering", and it is a far more common element in the posts of the anti-cps mob than in that of the cps supporters. Even you are significantly guilty of this Doug. But then again you will never admit it. I'm not really sure what point Kane is attempting to get at in this post, but it is quite clear where you are heading. I'd suggest that you ask him directly, and avoid all this useless finger pointing. You waste our time, our bandwidth, and indeed your own intelligence. Ron Folks, the core of the anti CPS folks here are fascist wannabees in the grand tradition of the fascist dictator ships we've seen arrise in the last century. And, above, Kane, you immediately provide us an example of propaganda. They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. What are the names of these "well-integrated groups" and who are these unhealthy "factions" with intrusionary goals? What are the goals? How are the groups integrated? The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Where should they look in their research? What are they to look for, Kane? What is the plot they should search out? Mine is making it clearer and clearer what stunk the first time I came across this ng. What have you discovered in your research? What was your methodology for that research? Where did you look? What were your findings? Without specifics, what we have here is a glittering generality with no substance. Any citations? Any source we should look at in our research? If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. What things do not show themselves in discussions in this newsgroup? What things are these? What things do not connect to the discussion and what does remain after these things are removed? Ask yourself what is it the priciple players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? What should we ask ourselves? Who are the principal players in the "Anti-CPS club"? What do they "NEVER" discuss? Please provide us some information. Some beef. You seem to be making charges here. Do you have any substantation for them? Share with us what evil things you have discovered. And, please, for godsakes show us where we can look to find the truth. Otherwise, what you have provided in this post of yours is propaganda. |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
"Doug" wrote in message news:6jHab.8775
... Kane writes: but is consistent, along with Doug and cohorts, with promoting activities that will result in more control by government. Hi, Kane! Hi Doug! I am sorry you have misinterpreted my posts. I haven't misunderstood a thing. Nor have I mininterpreted our posts. Your misdirection is my focus. You just composed yet another one. I have tried to make a case I love that you had such an obvious freudian slip. "Tried" is how things never come to fruition...trying to do something is precisely how not to get it done. "Try" to put your hand on a chair. The instant you do you negate that you are "trying." No, you placed your hand on the chair. Trying would mean you never do. against federally mandated child welfare practice of today precisely because it is an unwholesome and abusive misuse of government power. We've never disagreed on this of yours. I simply think you are lying based on your other posts to this ng, or you are unbelievable ignorant and stupid, something I don't believe at all. Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. That is correct and every instance should be prosecuted as fully as is legally possible. I have NOT ever seen you speak out against that that resort to other than legal means. However, "unilateral" decisions of that kind are extremely rare except if on the first visit of an investigator conditions that would endanger the child NOW. In nearly all cases they must have evidence and they must be prepared to have it reviewed by a judge and signed off by same. Your morals are the question here, Doug, and always have been for me. And I'm quite aware that you do consider yourself on a moral crusade and you believe that you are a moral person. We just disagree. These governmental intrusions upon innocent families are being done under the authorization of CAPTA and ASFA, both federal codes that mandate state policy and practice. That is correct. In otherwords, according to law. The arguments put forth here, that you either support directly or indirectly by failure to correct YOUR own little lackeys needs to be pointed out to you. There are constant claims that even the closest adherence to these laws constitues violation of rights. One day the lurkers here, and the folks that have been duped by you propogandists (sorry at it as you are) are going to figure out your agenda, Pineapple and come hunting you. Kane, you would be well-served to pay attention to your side of the street. oooOOOOOOOOOOOooooo....I'm shakin' in my boots. I pay close attention to the "street". I have a different style than you. I point fingers without playing coy games. Some of your posts include wording and approaches defined as propaganda. That's right: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=propaganda Is about as good a meaning as any, four of them, none making a judgement of truth or lie, just a promotion of a doctrine or belief system. You'll get my drift eventually. Elements of propaganda include: Oh they do? Please provide me with a valid and accessible referrence to coroborate YOUR definitions below. From what source did you draw these definitions of "propoganda"? You would be more accurate to say, "propaganda may include some of the following but it can be the absolute truth as well." GLITTERING GENERALITIES -- making unattributed, generalized statements about a group of people or given policy or practice without substantiation. Using rare incidents to generalize across an entire population. Yes, that is precisely what takes place on your side of the street in this NG, rather continuously. Some of the perps have been driven away, and I suspect the remainder are paid for their constant stream of exactly the above. Especially that last line. And you not only do not call anyone but me on what you think is not true but glaringly fail to confront them. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION -- To claim or imply that an debating opponent associates with undesirables; You do. I cite your recent defense of a layabout that has no business displacing a child and her mother for his convenience. to label an individual based upon her association with others; I lable, right here and right now, the woman that traded her daughter for a little punk as associating with undesireables. What you gonna do about it? to claim or imply an opponent is guilty of some wrongdoing based upon the wrongdoing of someone else. Never have done any such thing. Each instance I make the claim someone has done something wrong that's what I cite. I do point out you hang together, which is what I intend to expand on. And I don't consider any of you innocent, but rather all wrongdoers by virtue of deliberately leading people astray that do NOT need to go down that path when they are struggling to get their children back. "ie: Communists, in MaCarthy's 50's. You, as most people, have made a reference, if you would look to the research would find is not true. It was the HUAC that went after communists wholesale. Not Senator McCarthy...House, Senate. Get the picture? Youd be more accurately served if you simple said HUAC's 50's, as that was the witch hunt. McCarthy was rude at times, but he came under far more attack than he levied against others. PERSONAL ATTACK -- Attacking the messenger of information on a given issue rather than debating the issue itself; placing personalities above principals. Are you seriously suggesting I do NOT discuss the issues even as I label the ****heads that try to foist their crap on others? Please. Name calling. Yes, it has an uncanny ability to draw out the vile types like yourself and expose you. And you just keep on biting. Hints that the proponent of an idea is somehow morally deficient or derranged. "Hints"? Yah gottah be kidding. But then I could be completely wrong. The motivations might be economic and or cause driven, and my question and speculation is about those things, though the economic is a trailing secondary. Now what might the cause be....hhhhmmmmm? I'm not wrong though. The evidence is far too clear. Just review in your mind the statements and language of various people that have come and gone in this ng that you have supported or not corrected when you knew better. DEPERSONALIZATION -- Using terminlogy to imply that an individual expousing ideas is less than human or evil rather than debating the idea. You and I, and all other posters here, are really nothing more than electronic squiggles on a monitor. We are not persons. I don't IMPLY, I state it emphatically. It isn't a matter of espousing "ideas." It's lying and misleading. Putting those at risk that come here for help. But more to the point, the willingness to lie and more especially to continually risk other peoples children and families is about as good a reason to name call and depersonalize someone as I've ever seen. You do that, as do your cohorts. It's as much what you let them get away with without calling them on it as anything else. FEAR AND INTIMIDATION -- Suggesting that an opponent is a member of some sinister force that is out to get innocent people. Who am I trying to intimidate and cause to fear you? And just like they say about paranoia, it isn't, if they are out to get you. The unceasing yammering about CPS accompanied by off the wall screwball media articles that so often don't really say anything clearly enough to actually indict CPS and so often have nothing to do with them. The name of this ng isn't alt.support.the-state, or alt.support.the-cops, yet there is a regular string of references to many kinds of state agencies that are completely unconnected to any functions of CPS. Suggesting that narrative arguing a point the propagandist opposes is less than sincere -- that the opponent really has a hidden agenda he is not disclosing. I'm not suggesting it. I'm telling people to look and think for themselves not just swallow the propaganda efforts aimed at them in this ng. I found one. It is a great deal more dangerous than I first thought. This has become very serious business. I believe there are some folks that come here that are taken in by this agenda and a cause that is unspoken here, but represented nontheless, and may make foolish and dangerous decisions by believing it. I think there are a few that believe it though they probably won't act on it in any significant way, just debaters. It's the former I'm really concerned about. I believe the Christines, for instance, were taken in by just such nonsense and suffered the consequences of acting on nonsense just such as is posted here. Folks, the core of the anti CPS folks here are fascist wannabees in the grand tradition of the fascist dictator ships we've seen arrise in the last century. And, above, Kane, you immediately provide us an example of propaganda. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascism I believe that in time it will become obvious what is going on, here and on the national level..and it will likely be too late to stop it peacefully. I think the definition above at the URL listed makes it clear what I mean by the term. I think you fit under the definition where it says: "fascism n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)" They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. What are the names of these "well-integrated groups" and who are these unhealthy "factions" with intrusionary goals? What are the goals? How are the groups integrated? In time, Doug, in good time. But they have been mentioned in this ng. The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Where should they look in their research? What are they to look for, Kane? Look too all organizations that involve themselves with family issues at government level. Some of them are just nonsense and blather. But some are "suits" and intervene and advocate at the federal level. It's the polite and reasonable sounding ones that are most often the cons. I think people can use the search tools available and find things for themselves. It's a little early for a head on confrontation, Doug. YOU may think I just curse and rant and have no skill, but I spent a lot of years in the military learning how to reach objectives effectively. It took me five hard years to get my first CPS supervisor fired...see what I mean about never giving up? Not once in the entire five years did I have an interaction with CPS in any form that I did not continue to research the issues involved, and the people involved, and develop the plan I had set out at the beginning. There were those even in CPS that came to me and thanked me profusely. I thanked them because they took far more risks than I. What is the plot they should search out? More control from the top down. And I do not believe you are telling the truth when you say you wish to stop the aquisition of more control from the federal level. I believe that you want the feds to determine what is and isn't acceptable parenting, in a narrow and very frightening definition. It remains to be seen if I am correct. You have aligned with, right in these ngs, groups that most assuredly act to intruding the lives of Americans to forward the agenda of their special interest group at the expense of other citizens. An aquaintance of mine many years ago, a writer and journalist into exposing similar such things was found dead at his typewriter (that long ago) with a bullet hole in the back of his head. No jealous husbands involved, no debts, in fact an all around sweetheart of a guy. He just went too far too fast. Me, I takes my time. I always have layers of various kinds of protections in place, some that are very unpleasant indeed, and I never give up. Mine is making it clearer and clearer what stunk the first time I came across this ng. What have you discovered in your research? Rather a lot more than I had expected. Quite shocking even to me. What are you looking for, Doug, when you ask? What was your methodology for that research? Search, read, question, compare. That is usually how it's done for my purpose. I'm not writing a study for peer review. I'm interested in public review. Where did you look? Here and there, archives, articles, books, new releases, government sources, library of congress. I don't think I'd leave anything out. What were your findings? That I better start alerting other people to look. I don't care to be the Lone Ranger and wind up like my friend at the typewriter. Others knowing is protection for me. There are already a few thousand that HAVE been directed to the information by others. It's not a secret any longer and the lies and coverups are being stripped away. Without specifics, what we have here is a glittering generality with no substance. Why yes, that is how it appears. That's why I invite folks to dig deeper on their own. Why haven't YOU suggested that, Doug. I mean after all it would prove me wrong, now wouldn't it? Any citations? Any source we should look at in our research? I've put them here before. People that see actual citations very often don't in any appreciable numbers, actual go and look. Or if they do they already suffer from disbelief of the claims of the poster. I'm not going to describe it for them. They'll assume I am just mounting a propaganda campaign. This is too important to do that. They have to come to it themselves. It's like accepting a religious faith. No one really does if they are drug kicking and screaming. If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. What things do not show themselves in discussions in this newsgroup? My my you are full of questions, Doug. I wonder why. Probably the one that stands out for me, concerning you and why I do not trust you, is that you consistently fail to call to question those that adovate violence and behaviors that would in fact lose their children and get them in a great deal of trouble. That is the tactic of the Blood Dancer. Claim evil then cause actions that fit your description of evil to take place. Additionally you do NOT call your buddies on their outrageous nonsense like posting claims of CPS malfeasance when a reading of the posted clipping shows that CPS wasn't actually involved at all, or could have done nothing, outside of having powers and abilities NO organization can have for lack of available resources. One would have to have half the nation working in child welfare to meet the criteria for stopping the other half from abuses of children. And there is a constant stream of motives attributed to CPS workers or foster parents that in fact do not exist except in the rarist of instances. You are not evenhanded, Doug. What things are these? What things do not connect to the discussion and what does remain after these things are removed? As above, Doug. Ask yourself what is it the priciple players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? What should we ask ourselves? For the truth. You foment and encourage lies and halftruths by not challenging your buddies when the lie. Who are the principal players in the "Anti-CPS club"? R R R R , yah gotta be kidding. I don't think even the slow witted Dennis could miss knowing who the anti-cps folks are. What do they "NEVER" discuss? Now there is the question I've been waiting for. What DO you never discuss, Doug, just as they never do? Got any ideas? It seems just about everything is open to discussion except one subject. I think I'll just leave you the puzzle to worry for awhile. I enjoy your sweat immensely. Please provide us some information. I have. And times I have you haven't responded to the issue I brought up. You turned tail on those. It's what you wouldn't discuss. Why should I ask yet again? Some beef. I already cooked it well done, pulled it off the spit, and slapped it on your platter. You ran. You seem to be making charges here. Seem to be? Seem to be? R R R R R Do you have any substantation for them? Yes. But I insist people do their own searching. This medium highlights a characteristic of humans that has always amused me. When someone gives them advice or information they fall immediately into a defensive dismissing mode. If they find it themselves, they will take better ownship more immediately. I never force things down people's throat...I think you do, very cleverly. Share with us what evil things you have discovered. Have. You ignored them...well, you avoided them and turned tail and ran. And, please, for godsakes Lowcase? Hmmmmm...... show us where we can look to find the truth. It's a wide wide world, now isn't it? But you can start in USENET, expand to the WWW, access some of the great resources available. But take it all with a grain of salt. Otherwise, what you have provided in this post of yours is propaganda. Absofukinlootly... And propaganda can be presented through absolute truth in every word. I do have an agenda and am not the least shy about stating it. It's to stop you and those like you from escalating the war on parents to the federal level while pretending it's to help parents. Kane |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
Kane writes:
I love that you had such an obvious freudian slip. "Tried" is how things never come to fruition...trying to do something is precisely how not to get it done. Hi, Kane! No Freudian slip, although that term along with this theorist's concept that half a world envied the other half due to the lack of an appendage, is pretty much disputed today. Freud was a slip. g Anyway, I meant exactly what I said. I used the word "tried" intentionally, since it appears from your post that you misunderstood the thrust of my posts. Since you misunderstood, my attempt to communicate failed. I tried. "Try" to put your hand on a chair. The instant you do you negate that you are "trying." No, you placed your hand on the chair. Trying would mean you never do. Apparently, in this case, I did not. We've never disagreed on this of yours. Good. I simply think you are lying based on your other posts to this ng, or you are unbelievable ignorant and stupid, something I don't believe at all. What you may think of the messenger is irrelevant. Although, I must confess that it gives me considerable joy. It is the issues we discuss here that are important to me. If you cannot address those issues or challenge my contentions, then you are certainly welcome to use your bandwith in this forum as you wish. I just think you damage your cause by personal attacks. Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. That is correct and every instance should be prosecuted as fully as is legally possible. I have NOT ever seen you speak out against that that resort to other than legal means. I am afraid I do not understand what you are saying above, sir. Do you mind clarifying? However, "unilateral" decisions of that kind are extremely rare except if on the first visit of an investigator conditions that would endanger the child NOW. In nearly all cases they must have evidence and they must be prepared to have it reviewed by a judge and signed off by same. Unfortunately, the USDHHS estimates that only 17.5% of the 517,449 child victims had court action as part of their child protective cases. http://tinyurl.com/9uhv Your morals are the question here, Doug, and always have been for me. No, my morals are not in question here, Kane. You may, as you say, have been consumed with them for some time. You believe, apparently, that you can make moral judgments based upon what contributors on this newsgroup have to write about child welfare issues. You have also made a DSM-IV diagnosis on the basis of what a poster has written. I hope you understand that your moral judgments have value only to you. And I'm quite aware that you do consider yourself on a moral crusade and you believe that you are a moral person. We just disagree. You are, yet again, quite wrong in your assessment of what I consider myself to be. I am not on a moral crusade at all in this newsgroup. And all that you know of me is based upon my writing in this newsgroup. These governmental intrusions upon innocent families are being done under the authorization of CAPTA and ASFA, both federal codes that mandate state policy and practice. That is correct. In otherwords, according to law. The arguments put forth here, that you either support directly or indirectly by failure to correct YOUR own little lackeys needs to be pointed out to you. There are constant claims that even the closest adherence to these laws constitues violation of rights. Many CPS interventions do, indeed, constitute a violation of the children's or their families rights. This has been decided by assorted federal and state appeals courts and the text of some of these decisions have been posted to this very newsgroup. Historically, many actions have been taken by the state under color of existing law and later ruled unConstitutional by the US Supreme Court. Such is the nature of Constitutional law. One day the lurkers here, and the folks that have been duped by you propogandists (sorry at it as you are) are going to figure out your agenda, Pineapple and come hunting you. Kane, you would be well-served to pay attention to your side of the street. oooOOOOOOOOOOOooooo....I'm shakin' in my boots. My intention was not to scare you, but to point out what you later agree to doing -- propagandizing. I pay close attention to the "street". I have a different style than you. I point fingers without playing coy games. Thieves live in terror of being robbed. Game players suspect that the world around them is playing games. Some of your posts include wording and approaches defined as propaganda. That's right: http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=propaganda Is about as good a meaning as any, four of them, none making a judgement of truth or lie, just a promotion of a doctrine or belief system. You'll get my drift eventually. Elements of propaganda include: Oh they do? Please provide me with a valid and accessible referrence to coroborate YOUR definitions below. From what source did you draw these definitions of "propoganda"? Henslin, James M. (1995). Sociology: A down to earth approach. Boston: Allyn and Bacon. A more extensive list can be retrieved from most political science textbooks. Glittering Generalities and Guilt by Association are always mentioned as elements. There are more. You would be more accurate to say, "propaganda may include some of the following but it can be the absolute truth as well." No, I wouldn't have. I am comfortable with the terminlogy I did use. GLITTERING GENERALITIES -- making unattributed, generalized statements about a group of people or given policy or practice without substantiation. Using rare incidents to generalize across an entire population. Yes, that is precisely what takes place on your side of the street in this NG, rather continuously. Some of the perps have been driven away, and I suspect the remainder are paid for their constant stream of exactly the above. One of the problems CPS agencies do not have is substantiating someone as a "perp" of child abuse based on commentary in an internet news group. There exists to my knowledge absolutely no evidence to suggest that any member of this forum is being paid for their contributions, let alone your "perps." Unless you have some sort of documentation or evidence that leads you to that conclusion, your charges are simply. . . well, propaganda. Especially that last line. And you not only do not call anyone but me on what you think is not true but glaringly fail to confront them. Do you think I am picking on you, Kane? Actually, I have challenged many posters on the positions they have taken on child welfare issues. Many. They make their points. I make mine. It may be that you perceive you are being isolated because I don't challenge the same people you do. I think that is what you are saying. Am I wrong? GUILT BY ASSOCIATION -- To claim or imply that an debating opponent associates with undesirables; You do. I cite your recent defense of a layabout that has no business displacing a child and her mother for his convenience. I decidedly did not claim or imply that anyone -- including the gentleman I think you reference -- was guilty of anything based upon their associations. Your citation has no merit. to label an individual based upon her association with others; I lable, right here and right now, the woman that traded her daughter for a little punk as associating with undesireables. What you gonna do about it? LOL!! What am I going to do about it? Nothing, of course. This isn't a playground. I have no interest in doing anything about it. to claim or imply an opponent is guilty of some wrongdoing based upon the wrongdoing of someone else. Never have done any such thing. Each instance I make the claim someone has done something wrong that's what I cite. I do point out you hang together, which is what I intend to expand on. Oh, I suspect people who share like positions on some child welfare issues appear to some members as sticking together. An example, I suppose, would be you and Ron. I think it is a natural tendency for people to group participants according to the thrust of their comments. Ron, for instance, is fond of labeling two factions: pro-cps mob and anti-cps mob. It is more complicated than that, of course. In reality, each of us have our own, individual views. And I don't consider any of you innocent, but rather all wrongdoers by virtue of deliberately leading people astray that do NOT need to go down that path when they are struggling to get their children back. I have no evidence or reason to believe that any member of this forum intentionally leads parents astray. I think the claim is absurd -- mostly because any attempt to judge motives of another human being is as fruitless as it is unethical. I know that I have never, to my knowledge, led anyone astray. I certainly had no intention of doing so. "ie: Communists, in MaCarthy's 50's. You, as most people, have made a reference, if you would look to the research would find is not true. It was the HUAC that went after communists wholesale. Not Senator McCarthy...House, Senate. Get the picture? It was, indeed, Senator McCarthy, in his capacity as a member of that infamous committee. It was also the committee itself, of course. I never said differently. Youd be more accurately served if you simple said HUAC's 50's, as that was the witch hunt. McCarthy was rude at times, but he came under far more attack than he levied against others. I was more accurately served by the description I did share in this newsgroup. I disagree with yours. McCarthy levied far more attacks against citizens than were ever levied against him. Those launched against the citizens were generally false. Further, McCarthy had the power to destroy human beings. And he used it. PERSONAL ATTACK -- Attacking the messenger of information on a given issue rather than debating the issue itself; placing personalities above principals. Are you seriously suggesting I do NOT discuss the issues even as I label the ****heads that try to foist their crap on others? Please. As a general rule, you avoid difficult issues by calling the messenger names, yes. I notice the language gets especially harsh when you are challenged on misinformation you have posted. But that could be simply my perception. The language you used in attacking Fern recently went far beyond normal human boundaries. It was abuse. Name calling. Yes, it has an uncanny ability to draw out the vile types like yourself and expose you. And you just keep on biting. The name-calling has "exposed" anything. It does say a lot about you. Hints that the proponent of an idea is somehow morally deficient or derranged. "Hints"? Yah gottah be kidding. Well, yes, you do a bit more than hint. Point taken. But then I could be completely wrong. The motivations might be economic and or cause driven, and my question and speculation is about those things, though the economic is a trailing secondary. Now what might the cause be....hhhhmmmmm? I have no idea. It's your speculation, not mine. I'm not wrong though. The evidence is far too clear. Just review in your mind the statements and language of various people that have come and gone in this ng that you have supported or not corrected when you knew better. I haven't a clue about what you are talking about. If there is "evidence" you will have to spell it out so people can understand what you mean. You have chosen not to be specific, which is certainly your choice. But please don't expect me to sort out some meaning from what people don't say. I could care less. I am having a hard enough time encoding the meaning of what people in this newsgroup are saying. g I can say that I see nothing mysterious or inherently evil in the language used by any member of this newsgroup. I see no conspiracies of commission or omission. DEPERSONALIZATION -- Using terminlogy to imply that an individual expousing ideas is less than human or evil rather than debating the idea. You and I, and all other posters here, are really nothing more than electronic squiggles on a monitor. We are not persons. I am a person. So are you. I don't IMPLY, I state it emphatically. It isn't a matter of espousing "ideas." It's lying and misleading. Putting those at risk that come here for help. That a member of this newsgroup takes a position you disagree with does not make him or her a liar. You have made many statements that are false. In those cases, I challenge them, citing authorities. You have made statements that I think are misleading. In such cases, I share my opposing viewpoint. Regardless, I do not bother trying to determine your motives or whether or not you are intentionally sharing information you know to be false. I assume you believe it to be true or you wouldn't post it. But more to the point, the willingness to lie and more especially to continually risk other peoples children and families is about as good a reason to name call and depersonalize someone as I've ever seen. You do that, as do your cohorts. No, I do not do that. It's as much what you let them get away with without calling them on it as anything else. You may find more peace of mind concentrating on what you have contributed to this newsgroup and the substance of my replies to you, rather than worrying about how I respond to other members. FEAR AND INTIMIDATION -- Suggesting that an opponent is a member of some sinister force that is out to get innocent people. Who am I trying to intimidate and cause to fear you? I was listing elements to propaganda in general. Personally, I don't think you are intimidating anyone. And, while I appreciate your concern, nothing you have written has caused anyone to fear me. Nothing you have written has caused me to fear anyone else. We just disagree on many child welfare issues, Kane. No biggie. And just like they say about paranoia, it isn't, if they are out to get you. Paranoid? That seems to be an tortured bit of syntax given the context of your message. I have had some clients who claim they are out to get me, but no one in this newsgroup has any such design. Since the gist of your premise is incorrect, neither paranoia or the absence of it applies in this case. I have no reason to fear anyone in this newsgroup and they have no reason to fear me. It's just words, Kane. We debate child welfare issues in this forum. Just words. Nothing to worry about, Kane. Every little piece of the sky will still be there in the morning. The unceasing yammering about CPS accompanied by off the wall screwball media articles that so often don't really say anything clearly enough to actually indict CPS and so often have nothing to do with them. Well, yes, we do yammer quite a bit about CPS in alt.support.childprotectiveservices. I find the posting of news articles very informative. You have posted your share of newsstories. The name of this ng isn't alt.support.the-state, or alt.support.the-cops, yet there is a regular string of references to many kinds of state agencies that are completely unconnected to any functions of CPS. Yes, I see some news articles posted that have nothing to do with child welfare. Most do. Suggesting that narrative arguing a point the propagandist opposes is less than sincere -- that the opponent really has a hidden agenda he is not disclosing. I'm not suggesting it. I'm telling people to look and think for themselves not just swallow the propaganda efforts aimed at them in this ng. I found one. It is a great deal more dangerous than I first thought. This has become very serious business. Oh--eee--owww. Sounds very sinister. I wish you the best of luck in conducting the serious business of looking into this conspiracy. Meanwhile, I hope that you don't mind my disinterest. Without specifics, I have no idea what you are talking about. When you mention your concern about members of this newsgroup swallowing propaganda, are you talking about yours? I believe there are some folks that come here that are taken in by this agenda and a cause that is unspoken here, but represented nontheless, and may make foolish and dangerous decisions by believing it. How does one become taken in by a cause that is unspoken? I think there are a few that believe it though they probably won't act on it in any significant way, just debaters. It's the former I'm really concerned about. I share your concern about parents unquestioningly accepting the advice of members in this newsgroup. Different situations demand different responses and, too often, cookie-cutter advice is shared. I fear for parents in a given situation that accept your advice, for example, without researching the question and thinking for themselves. But I understand that I cannot change what other members are going to think or do. I have a hard enough time making decisions on what I am going to do next. I believe the Christines, for instance, were taken in by just such nonsense and suffered the consequences of acting on nonsense just such as is posted here. Folks, the core of the anti CPS folks here are fascist wannabees in the grand tradition of the fascist dictator ships we've seen arrise in the last century. So, voicing opposition to CPS practice makes one a fascist? And, above, Kane, you immediately provide us an example of propaganda. http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=fascism I believe that in time it will become obvious what is going on, here and on the national level..and it will likely be too late to stop it peacefully. Wow. Oh, well. It would have been nice to know in time to stop "it." But I am confident you know what you are doing. Keep it on the hush-hush. How many pieces of the sky have fallen so far? I think the definition above at the URL listed makes it clear what I mean by the term. I think you fit under the definition where it says: "fascism n : a political theory advocating an authoritarian hierarchical government (as opposed to democracy or liberalism)" I disagree. I am not a fascist. I just disagree with you a lot. In the context of child welfare, I think the CPS bureaucracy and the policy that drives it is too authoritarian. They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. What are the names of these "well-integrated groups" and who are these unhealthy "factions" with intrusionary goals? What are the goals? How are the groups integrated? In time, Doug, in good time. But they have been mentioned in this ng. Okay, Kane. I am sure you will let us know when the time is right. The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Everyone on this newsgroup can think, Kane. It is one of the things that make members of this forum delightfully human. Where should they look in their research? What are they to look for, Kane? Look too all organizations that involve themselves with family issues at government level. Some of them are just nonsense and blather. But some are "suits" and intervene and advocate at the federal level. Excellent. I admire people and their organizations that choose to lobby members of the legislative branch. Since current child welfare practice is driven by federal law, this is where reform of child protective services could start. CAPTA and ASFA should be repealed, for instance. It's the polite and reasonable sounding ones that are most often the cons. Oh. I think people can use the search tools available and find things for themselves. It's a little early for a head on confrontation, Doug. Oh, okay. YOU may think I just curse and rant and have no skill, but I spent a lot of years in the military learning how to reach objectives effectively. I am certain you will do a fine job, Kane. It took me five hard years to get my first CPS supervisor fired...see what I mean about never giving up? Not once in the entire five years did I have an interaction with CPS in any form that I did not continue to research the issues involved, and the people involved, and develop the plan I had set out at the beginning. Excellent. Congradulations. There were those even in CPS that came to me and thanked me profusely. I thanked them because they took far more risks than I. What is the plot they should search out? More control from the top down. And I do not believe you are telling the truth when you say you wish to stop the aquisition of more control from the federal level. I believe that you want the feds to determine what is and isn't acceptable parenting, in a narrow and very frightening definition. To the contrary, I want the state to stop its current path of sending bureaucrats out to determine what is and isn't acceptable parenting. ASFA does a lot of that and it should be repealed. I have no desire to increase the power of the feds. I want to reduce their power, along with that of the states. It remains to be seen if I am correct. Some of us may have learned by now you were correct if you had told us what it is you are talking about. But you have your reasons not to do so, I am sure. You have aligned with, right in these ngs, groups that most assuredly act to intruding the lives of Americans to forward the agenda of their special interest group at the expense of other citizens. I have not aligned with any group dedicated to intruding further on the lives of Americans. An aquaintance of mine many years ago, a writer and journalist into exposing similar such things was found dead at his typewriter (that long ago) with a bullet hole in the back of his head. No jealous husbands involved, no debts, in fact an all around sweetheart of a guy. Oh. He just went too far too fast. Oh. Me, I takes my time. I always have layers of various kinds of protections in place, some that are very unpleasant indeed, and I never give up. I have no idea of what you are talking about, but no matter. I do offer you congrats for persisting. I admire people who never give up. Mine is making it clearer and clearer what stunk the first time I came across this ng. What have you discovered in your research? Rather a lot more than I had expected. Quite shocking even to me. What are you looking for, Doug, when you ask? Well, you mentioned you were discovering something. I was curious what it was, so I asked. It was a passing thing. I will get over it. g What was your methodology for that research? Search, read, question, compare. Excellent. That is usually how it's done for my purpose. I'm not writing a study for peer review. I'm interested in public review. Excellent. I understand the distinction. Where did you look? Here and there, archives, articles, books, new releases, government sources, library of congress. I don't think I'd leave anything out. What were your findings? That I better start alerting other people to look. I don't care to be the Lone Ranger and wind up like my friend at the typewriter. Others knowing is protection for me. There are already a few thousand that HAVE been directed to the information by others. It's not a secret any longer and the lies and coverups are being stripped away. You seem intent on keeping "it" a secret from us. At least for the time-being. I am sure you will let us know when you think the time is right. Without specifics, what we have here is a glittering generality with no substance. Why yes, that is how it appears. That's why I invite folks to dig deeper on their own. Good advice. I try to suggest the same thing. Why haven't YOU suggested that, Doug. I mean after all it would prove me wrong, now wouldn't it? ....Because I haven't a clue to what the hell you are talking about. Any citations? Any source we should look at in our research? I've put them here before. People that see actual citations very often don't in any appreciable numbers, actual go and look. Or if they do they already suffer from disbelief of the claims of the poster. I'm not going to describe it for them. They'll assume I am just mounting a propaganda campaign. It is possible that some readers consider your secretive pronouncement of doom is propaganda. This is too important to do that. They have to come to it themselves. It's like accepting a religious faith. No one really does if they are drug kicking and screaming. Oh. If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. What things do not show themselves in discussions in this newsgroup? My my you are full of questions, Doug. I wonder why. You seem to have some questions of your own. Probably the one that stands out for me, concerning you and why I do not trust you, is that you consistently fail to call to question those that adovate violence and behaviors that would in fact lose their children and get them in a great deal of trouble. That is the tactic of the Blood Dancer. Claim evil then cause actions that fit your description of evil to take place. It does sound like a tactic of a blood dancer. But it is not a tactic I use. Additionally you do NOT call your buddies on their outrageous nonsense like posting claims of CPS malfeasance when a reading of the posted clipping shows that CPS wasn't actually involved at all, or could have done nothing, outside of having powers and abilities NO organization can have for lack of available resources. One would have to have half the nation working in child welfare to meet the criteria for stopping the other half from abuses of children. And there is a constant stream of motives attributed to CPS workers or foster parents that in fact do not exist except in the rarist of instances. You are not evenhanded, Doug. Perhaps not. Do you feel that you are? What things are these? What things do not connect to the discussion and what does remain after these things are removed? As above, Doug. Cool. Well, please forgive me if I don't bother myself looking for things that were not said on this newsgroup. Ask yourself what is it the priciple players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? What should we ask ourselves? For the truth. You foment and encourage lies and halftruths by not challenging your buddies when the lie. Who are the principal players in the "Anti-CPS club"? R R R R , yah gotta be kidding. I don't think even the slow witted Dennis could miss knowing who the anti-cps folks are. What do they "NEVER" discuss? Now there is the question I've been waiting for. What DO you never discuss, Doug, just as they never do? Got any ideas? It seems just about everything is open to discussion except one subject. I have absolutely no idea whatsoever. I think I'll just leave you the puzzle to worry for awhile. I enjoy your sweat immensely. I am not worried in the slightest. Since I have no idea what you are talking about, I need not bother myself trying nibble at doughnut holes. I really couldn't care less. Please provide us some information. I have. And times I have you haven't responded to the issue I brought up. You turned tail on those. It's what you wouldn't discuss. Why should I ask yet again? There remains on this current message list many of my posts that you have not responded to. Is this silence part of the secret? Some beef. I already cooked it well done, pulled it off the spit, and slapped it on your platter. You ran. I am right here. But then I am getting a little too old to run, especially when I have nothing to run from. You seem to be making charges here. Seem to be? Seem to be? R R R R R Do you have any substantation for them? Yes. But I insist people do their own searching. This medium highlights a characteristic of humans that has always amused me. When someone gives them advice or information they fall immediately into a defensive dismissing mode. If they find it themselves, they will take better ownship more immediately. I never force things down people's throat...I think you do, very cleverly. Share with us what evil things you have discovered. Have. You ignored them...well, you avoided them and turned tail and ran. Nope. And, please, for godsakes Lowcase? Hmmmmm...... Yep. show us where we can look to find the truth. It's a wide wide world, now isn't it? But you can start in USENET, expand to the WWW, access some of the great resources available. But take it all with a grain of salt. Well, looks a little too ambitious for me. Otherwise, what you have provided in this post of yours is propaganda. Absofukinlootly... And propaganda can be presented through absolute truth in every word. I do have an agenda and am not the least shy about stating it. It's to stop you and those like you from escalating the war on parents to the federal level while pretending it's to help parents. I am working for reform on the federal level because I feel the feds are funding the states to wage war on children and their families. |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove
children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. That is correct and every instance should be prosecuted as fully as is legally possible. I have NOT ever seen you speak out against that that resort to other than legal means. PROSECUTED? BY WHO? Aren't you being coy when you pretend you are so naive as to think that CPS would be PROSECUTED? You know very well that the state agency has sovereign immunity, and the caseworkers and supervisors have a high level of immunity. It's hard to break that down to sue. (Unless you can get the state's PERMISSION to be sued!) Do you think ANY prosecutor would go after CPS workers who removed without substantiation? They did for THREE WEEKS in our case. No court order. Acted like they had legal standing when they had none. Even tried to allege violation of a no contact order that DID NOT EXIST! Major twits, wielding major power. They had egg on their faces and scurried to "save face" by spinning criticisms into a case using a big lie. Prosecuting bad caseworkers is a bit like the idea of prosecuting false accusers. Political and loyalty reasons stand in the way, and it just doesn't happen. |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
I wrote:
Unilaterial decisions by CPS to forcibly remove children who they themselves have unsubstantiated as being at risk of or actually maltreated is an abuse of government power. These governmental intrusions upon innocent families are being done under the authorization of CAPTA and ASFA, both federal codes that mandate state policy and practice. To which, Ron replies: Here we are, once again, with Doug insinuating that these removals are done after the findings of the case. Hi, Ron! You may want to read my statement above again. What sources do you have that document these removals are done even BEFORE any findings are in on the case? Now, just why is it that Doug perpetuates this ........ "misunderstanding of the facts" shall we say? The answer is quite simple really, once one reads the tenor of Doug's posts over the last 3-4 years. Its for the "Sensationalism" factor. Why stick to the boring old truth when a sensational half truth will do? I have shared the facts. If you have a different understanding of them, please post your comments along with citations of your authorities. I would like to see you join the discussion, Ron. GUILT BY ASSOCIATION -- To claim or imply that an debating opponent associates with undesirables; to label an individual based upon her association with others; to claim or imply an opponent is guilty of some wrongdoing based upon the wrongdoing of someone else. "ie: Communists, in MaCarthy's 50's. Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like most of your posts Doug Please feel free to cut and paste an example, Ron. My supposition is that you won't find any such examples in my posts. BTW, have to found the posts where I stated I was a USDHHS statistician yet, like you promised? How is the search coming? I recall you saying that it would be a simple one since you claimed I had made the statement many times. PERSONAL ATTACK -- Attacking the messenger of information on a given issue rather than debating the issue itself; placing personalities above principals. Name calling. Hints that the proponent of an idea is somehow morally deficient or derranged. Hmmm, I must admit, this is one area that you do seem to try and avoid. Oh well, we can't all be perfect. DEPERSONALIZATION -- Using terminlogy to imply that an individual expousing ideas is less than human or evil rather than debating the idea. Hmmm, sounds suspiciously like some of your posts Doug Have any examples? If I really have done so in any of my posts, I would appreciate you posting an example so I have the opportunity to apologize for the mistake. FEAR AND INTIMIDATION -- Suggesting that an opponent is a member of some sinister force that is out to get innocent people. Suggesting that narrative arguing a point the propagandist opposes is less than sincere -- that the opponent really has a hidden agenda he is not disclosing. Oh quite. Again, something that you are a past master at here Doug. In the past I have called it "fear mongering", and it is a far more common element in the posts of the anti-cps mob than in that of the cps supporters. Even you are significantly guilty of this Doug. But then again you will never admit it. No. If you can find an example of me using such a tactic, please point it out. I will be happy to correct for my error in such an instance. Please provide some documentation of your charges. Otherwise, they are unfounded attacks. By the way, just what is the "anti-cps mob"? I'm not really sure what point Kane is attempting to get at in this post, but it is quite clear where you are heading. I'd suggest that you ask him directly, and avoid all this useless finger pointing. You waste our time, our bandwidth, and indeed your own intelligence. Kane stated he is not willing to tell us what he is attempting to get at in his post. He said he is waiting for another, more opportune time when I did ask. I am sure that Kane will clue us in about his conspiracy when he thinks the time is right. I think it is important for Kane that we know for the time-being that the sky is falling. He will fill us in on the missing pieces later. |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
"Doug" wrote in message k.net...
Kane writes: This thread began with a scumbag claiming that CPS forces families apart. My response was to offer information on why that happens. Your immediate attempt to claim that I said it happens all the time, in all instances, leaves me pondering why you do not bring a similar attention to all the many instances that your little followers do exactly that...post a statement that implies, far more than mine, that ALL CPS WORKERS ARE CROOKS, OR ALL FOSTER PARENTS ARE IN IT FOR THE MONEY. Hi, Kane! What you did say was, "And to investigate (and thanks for the excuse to describe this yet again...I think three times this month) they must get either the nonoffending parents agreement move out the alleged perp and not communicate with him or her." And I replied it was incorrect to assume that to investigate the caseworker MUST get one of the parents agreement to move out the alleged offender. Nor did I assume that. I pointed out to the poster why those things happen, not that they must happen every time. I pointed out that when it happens that is the reason for it. And when it happens it's because there is something in the nature of the charge, or the initial findings in the investigation that call for protection of the accuser, or victim, or the part of the investigation that follows. Nothing that nowhere in what you quouted or anything else I said is there a time line claimed. Nor is there a claim that it must be so in every investigation. That, instead, it would depend on the initial findings of the investigation, the severity of the allegations and a host of other variables. MOST child sexual abuse investigations do not involve the ultimatim you insist the caseworker MUST offer. My response to The Whore was to clarify why it happened when it did, not at claim that it happens in all or most instances. This little foreys of yours into hair splitting and reframing the opponents statements are amusing. And obvious. Remember, you were talking about conditions required to investigate. No I'm not. I'm talking about SOME conditions for SOME investigations. I didn't say the poster, Dip****, claimed all, nor should you reframe mystatement to make it appear I did. (Please read your quoted paragraph again.) Can you clarify why you would use the distinction "non-offending parent" in describing the time frame BEFORE an investigation is conducted? It would be more accurate to say, "non-accused caregiver," but for that not invested as you are in hairsplitting the claim down to something you think you can deal with, it's close enough for the public to understand. The first object of the investigation is to determine if sexual abuse occurred and whether there are any offenders. Chronologically or priority? The first objective of investigations I've seen tend toward doing what needs to be done to ensure the safety of the alledged victim, before any serious exchanges take place as part of the investigation. Don't you every get tired of being a weasel? Propaganda. Have you stopped beating your wife? I never have and never will. Can you say the same for your implication that I said something I didn't? I made the weasel statement as an example of your paragraph above, a perfect example of "have you stopped beating your wife?" Oh, okay. So the weasel statement was just an example. Thank you for pointing that out. You are welcome. How about answering the question instead of offering a pointless diversion? "Can you say the same for your implication that I said something I didn't?" However, this move comes AFTER the worker has subjectively determined during the assessment or investigation that something is wrong or the child may be, sometime in the future, at some kind of risk, maybe. I find nothing to disagree with, but you are pursuing this now as though I did. I simply pointed out that CPS investigates, and that they may well remove one parent who is named as the perp by someone, often the child themself. The value of "often" in this case is roughly about half the time, a bit more CPS does not have the authority to remove one parent who is named by someone as the offender during the investigation. You are mistaken. They have as much authority as any police investigator does. If a police officer thinks someone poses a risk to others, or to the investigation they have the authority to take control of the situation. With a CPS investigator you and others assume they don't have that authority and go into challenge and even attack mode. The results are easily seen. While the investigator may not be trained to detain someone they have at their disposal, with the full support of the court under the law, LEO's to do the hands on work. If you don't think so, try getting in the face of a CPS investigator and see what happens. Lacking a police escort they'll simply leave and go get one and the next encounter will not be as polite. There won't even be a question until the misinformed person is in cuffs. And that is a perfect way to precipitate removal of children if you wish to advise people to refuse to cooperate. Do you so advise? As we both state later in our respective posts, the practice is cases where the allegations against the parent are credible and serious, the other parent is asked to take the child to a location where they can be interviewed (in some jurisdictions, an appointment may be made with a CARES unit; in others the parent and child may follow the worker to a facility practicing interview methods I described in my post). Nothing I have said in this thread precludes this from happening. Very little I've said is what you claim I've said. I answered the Fool Towelboy, when he ranted about families (and he doesn't qualify) being separated at the insistence of CPS. We were not debating when and how, only that it happens. I explain ONE of the circumstances. It does not follow that I am claiming there are not other circumstance. Why are you pretended I am, or building this into one of your long rambling soap box preachings? And answer my question please. Not just another diversion. Why are you preaching? It is NOT done automatically in lieu of the investigation or as a protective measure during the 14 hour investigation. Didn't use the work automatically, and didn't say it would happen in every case their is an allegation. I gave NO freqency to the reply to Greegor the Whore. Just that it happens. Good. Thanks for clarifying. That should suffice then to answer your questions. Will you end or will you continue in your disengenuous and immoral defense of The Whore? Let's see, shall we. CPS has no power to order the parents to do anything. Did I say CPS did? If so I stand corrected but I am unable to find that myself. Yes, you did. But it is now clarified. No it isn't. I am still unable to find where I claimed that "CPS has the power to order the parents to do anything." In other words, Weaselboy, I claimed it had certain powers to do certain things. And in the course of an investigation if an investigator sees cause to have someone removed they are going to be removed lawfully. Just a policeman lawfully removes or detains or otherwise controls the situation and the people in it for safety and to further the investigation. While the investigator is not, unless they are a sworn police officer, authorized to affect the means they are authorized to call on those that are, LEOs. In lieu of that, they offer the parties involved options to cooperate in the best interests of all. If they refuse, it's LEO time. Why do you think CPS investigators so often have the police meet them at the site of the investigation? Coffee and donuts? On the other hand, CPS is not the only player, as you well know. The just CAN order the parent and can take action if the parent does not. The investigator goes to the judge within a set number of hours after initial contact for that assignment of their enforcement role...by the judge. And the document produced is the same one presented to the feds for IV-E funding. You betcha one exists. As I mentioned in my prior post, courts were involved with only an estimated 17.5% of 517,449 child victims in 2001. http://tinyurl.com/9uhv Most CPS investigations do not involve the courts and it is rare that a worker will go to a judge for an order at this stage of the investigation. If she does, she will need to have gathered enough evidence so far in the investigation to establish probable cause. Bull****ting again, Doug. This number varies considerably. But it is not true. Virtually all such cases, after the initial visit, are going to court. It is required by law in all states I've every dealt with and certainly by ASFA. You can cut a fine hair on this one and say, no it isn't, but then you have to deal with the fact that the state will be penalized under ASFA if they do not in fact take every case where there is a removal of a child to a judge in a set number of hours. That's called the penalty portion of a law. Nor are the parents under any obligation to sign the agreement. That depends entirely upon the evidence uncovered. But you are correct that is not obligatory. They can refuse and take the consequences. Yes. And an investigation has to take place to gather evidence. If the safety plan suggests they have done something they haven't done, they should not sign it. Dan has also suggested, if I understand him, that the parent should not sign anything without first consulting their attorney. This is rather far outside the topic of the claim I made. It isn't anything I have an argument with. In fact I have made the same suggestion myself. Though I've also made the suggestion that some attorney's are worth spit in such matters. They may well urge the client to agree to things they should not, and have been known to do so as reported in this ng. I believe, if I understand him correctly, that Dan advises not signing in just such circumstance, and signing and performing the plan if it does no define the signer as being guilty of some shortcomings. I have suggested before to families in similar circumstances that they do what business people do with such things. Simply get up with the document in hand, walk out of the meeting with the words, "I will have to review this CONTRACT and I will get back to you in three working days with my decision." Unless you are under arrest or being detained by the police (and even then you may well get away with it) that puts you back in control without appearing in any way uncooperative. In fact you can insist that you are cooperating MORE fully by your care and consideration of the CONTRACT. You can run it at your leisure by an attorney, or use it to line your birdcage, but it important to think about your children who have been taken, if they have, and proceed with that in mind. It't common in other circumstances like these to treat the contracts with care, making and initialing needed changes (representing your interests), and with a service plan or safety plan (call it what you will in your area) include what the other party will do, and do not sign it until they do in your presence and that of a witness you have produced. My first encounter with CPS was very much like that. They caved. No service agreement contract was completed and the child was not removed from the parent. I'm not a lawyer and I don't give legal advice but I do point out what is sensible and well within any legal constraints or expectations. When asked to sign a contract one can refuse and take the consequences, or they can agree with stipulations as I've pointed out, time and editing priveleges, and refuse to sign a one sided contract...as it isn't unless both sides are represented. An agreement can be one sided, but a contract cannot and should not. So the object is to turn the onesided pile of crap into a nice two sided bouquet of flowers. Innocent Parents often mistakenly sign this plan under actual or perceived threats. You are correct. The innocent mistakenly sign this plan. They should simply go to the wall and fight CPS from the getgo, having their children in foster care for up to a year, maybe year and a half, and very possibly lose them in the end. No, they should calmly and with courtesy decline to sign a safety plan that suggests they have done something wrong if they haven't done anything wrong (innocent). Or, they should politely ask the caseworker to wait while they review the document with their attorney and receive her recommendation whether to sign it or not. And they should feel perfectly free to signal their cooperation to any judge waiting down the line somewhere in the process by editing and adding a line where the worker or supervisor (latter is prefered) has to sign it BEFORE the parent does, with witnesses who come with the parent. Balking on the part of CPS at this point while retaining the child(ren) puts them in an untenable position in court. THEY didn't cooperate with perfectly reasonable requests of the parents. That's why the witnesses are important. Many a time CPS caves unless they have a solid case with ample evidence. So the advice I suggest in no way will help the guilty get their child back. Those instances should run the course to insure there WILL be compliance, but they can still and should, insist on both parties signing and outcomes spelled out clearly in the contract: "when steps one, two, three are completed the child will be returned within 48 hours" or words to that effect. I rather like Dan's solution much better than yours, or what it appears to me yours is. I believe, and I urge him to correct me if I am mistaken, he advises they sign the PLAN but not if it includes any wording that could be construed as accepting they are guilty or have a condition they do not. I like Dan's solution in this situation as well. For instance, a service plan that includes an area that says they must submit to drug testing, sans any claim of drug use would be one that would not be signed unedited. A plan that said the parent agreed to take parenting classes would be signed on the grounds it is sensible to accept that no parent knows everything. ...Only if the parent's attorney has read the safety plan and advises the parent to sign it. One must be very careful not to stipulate to anything that may be determined to put the child at risk or suggest guilt, thereby negating their case at the adjucication hearing. This is the only opportunity the parent has to challenge CPS allegations and CPS has the burden of proof. That is exactly why the document should be returned with editing initialed by the parent but no signiture of the parent on it until CPS puts pen to paper. It's The Whore solution made sane and reasonable. But then his is not to get the child back but to sue later. That's an entirely different ballgame. Me, I want the child back. Don't call me when it's time to sue. I'm not well versed in that aspect. In fact, the INNOCENT.....R R R R, OR CLAIMED TO BE INNOCENT....Greegor the Whore, could have had that child back in the home pdq had he agreed to take a psych eval. Agreeing to take a psych eval does not in any way label a person as crasy before the exam. In fact agreeing can be argues as a very sane and confident act to do.....if the person is nuts now is the time to find out, if they are not, again, now is the time to find out. Agreeing to take a psychological evaluation from one of the therapists in CPS's stable is a crucial error. Bull**** again. You simply walk into the evaluation session with a copy of the evaluation of YOUR psychologist in hand and ask the current shrink, smiling of course, their opinion of this evaluation. Damn, don't you people know ANYTHING tactically? What actually works is so damn simple when you don't spend your time ranting hysterically to "kill CPS" when you are in no position to do so. The parent should obtain an independent psychological evaluation from a therapist of their choosing. They can STILL show the court their willingness to take the CPS pscyh eval. That is a very powerful statement. Of course if they ARE nuts this will bite them in the butt, but I have not a qualm about that. I prefer they face the truth. 1 Don't you? That evaluation report will be provided to the client (the parent). Evaluators in CPS stable make a good deal of their income (if not all) from CPS and they provide the parent's evaluation report to their client (CPS). If a stable therapist doesn't have a history of saying what CPS wants to hear they are taken out of the stable. You are as usual either lying or badly misinformed. A few months back I spent a profitable afternoon, three billable hours, consulting with a worker that was finding a counselor evaluating (obviously to route a family back to MORE therapy) with bias...in fact three involved therapists. The resolution? With my facilitation of the worker examining the circumstances and what SHE knew the family needed: reuniting without further services divided up between the three shrinks, just a few wind-up sessions for the family together, that little bull**** number by the shrinks ended. I heard the howl from 50 miles away, but this is not an unusual action by a worker. I had to remind her that she was the case manager, not the shrinks. And they hadn't a decent argument to support their evaluation. Signing the safety plan stipulates to wrongdoing in the home and obligates them to follow through with the terms and conditions of the plan. Now, children CAN be removed solely on the basis of failure to follow the "plan." It does not do the former, it does the latter, and the outcome is likely given the failure. On the other hand families often get a great many chances to get their acts together. And all that is usually accomplished is that some become great actors. All that cons do is become great actors. That does not equate with letting them out of jail before their sentence is up. Your use of the word "usually" is a mistake on your part. On the contrary. What usually happens is that some parts of the service plan stick and rehabilitation takes place, and children return to parents that are more understanding of children's needs and meet them at least a few degrees better, if not a great deal better. A sample safety plan usually includes some of the following: the parent will attend an anger management class; (1) have a drug eval and followup evaluations (2); attend a parenting class(3); clean up the drug paraphenalia in the household (4); get a real job not picking up bottles in the ball park for pocket change (well It's not quite THAT specific....r r r )(5); take up a separate residence until the results of a CARES evaluation is completed(6). (1) The parent should not sign a safety plan with such a condition unless she has an anger control problem. Or upon the advice of her attorney. Who needs anger management classes? Anyone that acts out their anger on their child, or others. How many people that have such problems have you met that will admit to them? I'd say a runin with CPS in such situations is a much needed eye opener for some of those folks. I recall LoyalFan pointing out that he had had a very difficult problem with anger, and Dan gave him a little class in anger management...that better control of his behavior and more carefully direction of his energies would more likely produced the desired results. Seems to have worked, and that is usually the major content of anger management classes. Too many people assume wrongly that it's about holding your anger in or becoming somekind of wimp. Any decent anger management class celebrates the emotion, shows how it is related to more primary emotions and what to do with the energy to gain reasonable desired outcomes. (2) The parent should sign a safety plan with such a condition only when (a) subsequent "follow ups" are detailed in timeline (b) They have a drug abuse or dependence problem (c) There is probable cause to believe they have a chemical dependency problem (d) upon the expressed advice of her attorney. You just nicely set someone up to have a judge nail them hard. There is NO problem with submitting to a drug evaluation plan of any kind if the person is not a user and of course then is clean. In fact I've advised people to insist on one being added to their agreement, just to addle the workers and give the judge something to think about. **** testing is a perfect way to prove there are no drugs involved. (3) The parent should sign a safety plan with such a condition only if wording is included that specifies that the parent is not alleged to have any problems with parenting, that no deficiencies in parenting are claimed by CPS, and that the she did not, at any time, place her child at risk. .... Or upon the advice of her attorney. (CPS will not allow such wording, BTW). Now you are pulling a Greegor the Whore. You are making it impossible for CPS to return the children. If there was no such need then it would follow that CPS is going to balk. The correct response for effect is: "I love parenting. I can't get enough books and videos and classes on it, can you recommend more than the one you offer?" Personally I think every parent should, just to cover their asses, take half a dozen parenting related courses. Be able to quote some of the CPS favorites, Ginnot et al. I've recommended to parents they google up the latest and add them to their shelves, or at least check them out of the library and ask for a chit from the librarian to prove it. One of the claims CPS so often makes is that a particular child has a condition the parent isn't providing proper help for. Well, if the child has a condition they are right if the parent insists on remaining ignorant. Read up on the condition, the latest, especially the ones being recommended by CPS to workers and therapists. Goldstein is a good bet these days. Impresses the hell out of workers that haven't had time to read him themselves. And a lot of kids will benefit by parents knowing and understanding the various kinds of challenges kids have developmentally and what some tools are for helping them. (3) The parent should consult with his/her attorney before signing a safety plan with this condition. This looks like a substantiated case. Outside the range of the typical "cookie cutter" safety plan, at least. This is not simply a condition to a safety plan but, indeed, an allegation and a charge of a criminal offense. Of course. You have shown yourself to be irony impared and satire deficient. I recommend some good books on both subjects. Want a bibliography? r r r r (4) The parent should sign a safety plan with this condition only if they are unemployed, able to work, and are, indeed, picking up bottles and reselling them. Or upon the advice of their attorney. Oh, maybe you aren't irony impaired. Do I detect a smidgeon? (5) The parent should consider signing a safety plan with this condition only upon the advice of their attorney and only if the time of the seperation is specified (how long will the CARES exam take and how long before results come back?). I am assuming, of course, that the parent is innocent of child abuse or child neglect, which we were talking about. I have no approach to suggest to those who are guilty of the allegations. I wouldn't know how to defend against true charges of child abuse and have no willingness to do so. I would and I do, because humans are fallible. Parents are not perfect, and I'm not interested in having the law changed to let them off the hook, but I am interested in them getting at least some chances to rehab and do what's right. And I've seen it work, by many means, again and again. Even the lady I helped way back in 1976 needed to clean up her act a bit, and did. She really did have a dirty house to the point her toddler was putting things in his mouth he shouldn't. Her floor was dirt...seriously. Bare ground. I taught her what I'd learned from some southwest indians, water sprinkling and sweeping a couple of times a day to build up a hard slick cleanable surface. I'm a practicle fellow, and I do not think that parents that goof even those that put their children at risk, should be either ignored until they kill, or cut off without a chance to turn it around. So, I have a question or two for you. Do you think all parents that in fact do break the law and hurt their children should automatically lose their children and just be fined and locked up? Do you support the use of corporal punishment as a valid parenting practice? In other words, if the parent wants to say none of these things are related to them, they are certainly free to take the consequences. What are the consequences to the innocent parent who says none of these things are related to them? What a stupid and obviously leading question. We've been discussing them. You've asked that question in many forms in this thread so far and I've answered them. Duly noted and answered is my response. On the other hand, when the child has supperating injuries untreated for weaks, is emaciated, shows drugs in their body by test, has an unexplained broken bone or two, I'd like to suggest, that if they want their child back they best get with the program. Assuming the parent inflicted ALL of this abuse and neglect, why should he get his child back? I have seen people do such things and still turn their lives around. If they can't the child goes. If they can and can satisfy the judge they can do you still wish the child to lose their parents? Is it any wonder I refer to you as a fascist? You are so uptight you must need a firehose for an enema. Do you seriously think I think they should get a SECOND chance? Are you trying to sell the reader that I want NO controls over dangerous parents? Hell, your buddies around here have accused me of being TOO harsh on parents, yet I've always confined myself to being harshly critical of abusive parents. Is that what it is all about . . . how well one gets with the program. Why would you take a statment of mine and change the context to make it appear that is the only thing I would suggest in such cases? If that were so, in fact if your silliness were so, then it all could be done by computer. Not judgement would be needed. Just the facts fed into the program and action on the required penalty. You have a bad habit of reframing everything to make your argument instead of arguing the actual claim. This expansiveness of yours is one of the reason I call you a liar so often. Any attempt to decieve, by omission or commission is a lie in my book. I thought we were talking about the safety of children. No, actually that was not the original subject of this thread. Any such subject would have been interjected by you, as usual, to divert from the original subject. It's a good subject and bringing it up strongly suggests you want the reader to believe I'm NOT infavor of it or am remiss in not making it plain in every other breath, but nothing I've suggested is against the safety of the child. Some do not show the level of risk or circumstances that makes an investigator chose that level of intervention...removal of child or alleged perp. Yes. The issue is one of timing. You seem to be insisting that this action is taken at the beginning, before an investigation. Talk about misinterpreting. It can happen at any time. When the level of the evidence reaches a certain level they must investigate. That's all I said. Evidence gathered to reach a given level is gathered during the investigation. It is not when the level of evidence meets a given level, they must investigate, but when a certain amount of evidence is collected during the investigation, they must act. Is that what you are saying? I don't think so, but I'm afraid in one of your little fits of reframing the poster you've managed to obscure the point nicely. Calm down. Try to get your thoughts together. You are usually far more skilled at being diversionary and redirecting the argument. I'm shocked. And it was in the context you have conveniently from you first reply left out...the Whore's referrence to kickin' daddy/boyfriend/whoever out, I believe on the claim by a teenager that he was sexually molesting her. So basically, Doug, as usual, you have taken your argument completely out of context except by the remotest connections...in hopes the reader will carry a vague unclear memory that will convince them that your argument I am wrong is based on some fact waaaay back there...that doesn't ****in' exist, Doug. I will keep my posts shorter to make the issues more distinct. Perhaps by taking sections at a time, attribution and context can be better digested. That might work. But I don't think you can discipline yourself well enough to carry it off successfully. Do you wonder that I call you Duplicitious and why the name calling? Figger it out, liar. I have never wondered why you call me the particular names you mention and others. If you have never wondered then why would you speculate......... It has always seemed to me that you do so when you lack the resources to address the issues. Seems to me like you are wondering quite nicely there. In either case, I have always known that your habit It's not a habit. If you think so how is it that I have posted many times and voiced disagreement with others and never spoken a harsh word to them or called them a name? I had just such a conversation with Tere, I belive it was, just recently. You are too busy assessing me, Doug. Far too busy, and additionally busy with trying to cover up you doing what you claim I do. of calling those you disagree with names has nothing to do with me. What an odd statement. You stand above all that do you? You aren't engaged? Really? After all the comment on it, the many screens full of responses to me, you think it has nothing to do with you? How curious. You do not so address those you disagree with when they name call, or post incorrect information. I'd say you are very involved, Doug, very, and "it" whatever your "it" might be in that sentence, has a great deal to do with you. Kane |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
Ron said
I'd suggest that you ask him directly, He DID, and you even quoted that very part below Ron! and avoid all this useless finger pointing. You waste our time, our bandwidth, and indeed your own intelligence. Ron, you complained about finger pointing and in the very next line you did EXACTLY THAT! Did you KNOW that you did that? Odd that you didn't feel this compunction about FINGER POINTING aimed my way! Kane said They have an agenda and an organization of well integrated groups that have as a goal the intrusion of factions not healthy to the body politic. Geez, Kane, JUST WHO determines that a faction is an INTRUSION, or NOT HEALTHY for the body politic? YOU? Kinda reminds me of that old Trek episode where exceptions need to be brainwashed around to the "Will of Landru". You should especially like that one Kane, because while on the face it was slapping at communism, it was secretly slapping at zombie like religion as being equally dangerous. "Are you not OF the body?" But the romper room social worker mentality was not as revealed and reviled as it is getting to be in decades since. Social Workers who do not speak up when a family has shown them paper proof that CPS has done a FRAME UP JOB to make a case, they are not "healthy to the body politic" either. There are LOTS of them my family discovered! Other SW's gesticulate about the problem but act powerless. Doug ASKED What are the names of these "well-integrated groups" and who are these unhealthy "factions" with intrusionary goals? What are the goals? How are the groups integrated? The few among you that can think might want to do some research. Where should they look in their research? What are they to look for, Kane? What is the plot they should search out? Kane said ...the first time I came across this ng. You mean when Dan Sullivan asked you to join, right? What have you discovered in your research? What was your methodology for that research? Where did you look? What were your findings? Without specifics, what we have here is a glittering generality with no substance. Any citations? Any source we should look at in our research? If you continue to remove all that things that do not show themselves to connect to the discussion, what remains must be the answer. What things do not show themselves in discussions in this newsgroup? What things are these? What things do not connect to the discussion and what does remain after these things are removed? Ask yourself what is it the [principle] players in the anti CPS club NEVER discuss, and you have your answer. Even when it comes up? What should we ask ourselves? Who are the principal players in the "Anti-CPS club"? What do they "NEVER" discuss? Please provide us some information. Some beef. You seem to be making charges here. Do you have any substantation for them? Share with us what evil things you have discovered. And, please, for godsakes show us where we can look to find the truth. Otherwise, what you have provided in this post of yours is propaganda. More often than not, it wouldn't even qualify as propaganda. Much I see is attempted insult. Then when it doesn't work, complaints that I have no shame! Ha! |
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The Plant answer DNA swab Question
"Greg Hanson" wrote in message om... snip Kane said ...the first time I came across this ng. You mean when Dan Sullivan asked you to join, right? How could I ask someone to join this NG when I didn't know they existed until they posted here? Was this on a Star Trek episode? Dan |
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