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#41
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Sad story
Ilse Witch wrote:
It's a bizar catch 22: if only one of the midwifes would have accepted her, her baby might have lived. But if not, she would most likely have sued the midwife, indirectly sending insurance premiums rocketing and the midwife out of business. Which the midwife probably realized and therefore didn't accept her in the first place. This is one thing that I've been thinking... People are probably thinking that the midwives refused her out of fear of being sued. Well, lawsuits don't happen as much in Canada as they do in the US (not sure why - we just don't sue as much for some reason, even though we can), so I just don't think that this was the reason. I would love to know the reason, but I'm sure it probably wasn't that. Also, insurance rates probably wouldn't have been affected as much, due to the huge behemoth called health care. It is really deeply sad for the mother (and father), and I hope she manages to live with her decision in the long run. I know, there is no guarantee that the baby would have lived in hospital, but I'm sure the chances would have been greatly improved. The whole thing is very sad. I wish we had more details. Would be something to learn from. |
#42
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Sad story
OK. I can help jumping in.
Carol Ann writes: : Because I am also one of those women who believes in using medical : technology. Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than hospital birth. Why rely on technology when it does not improve outcome, but instead in some cases causes the outcome to be worse. : I would not consider having a child without pain meds unless : it was going to hurt my child. Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too) : At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO. Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth. Now, you still may personally feel more comfortable with a hospital birth than a homebirth, but you can't use that reasons to rationally justify it. Larry |
#43
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Sad story
"Larry McMahan" wrote in message ... Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than hospital birth. Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too) : At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO. Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth. Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write above? Donna |
#44
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Sad story
"ModernMiko" wrote in message ... "Iuil" wrote in message ... "Carol Ann" wrote I confess to being one of those women. I would NEVER consider homebirth. Can I ask why? If it's because of the monitoring etc, you need someone to be actually watching those monitors and prepared to act when necessary. I know one woman whose baby died shortly after birth because, although she was in hospital being continously monitored, no-one was actually reading the monitor so when her baby did get intervention it was too late. And despite all the machines and doctors in the hospital, there was nothing that could be done for him :-(. Complacency can be just as fatal as anything else. Jean Unfortunately there can be bad outcome no matter which route you choose. There are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is research options, facilities, providers and go from there. I am like Carol Ann in that I do not think I would ever have a homebirth. I completely support there being a choice but I think it's unfair to be looked down upon because I happen to want to have my child in a hospital. I certainly would not look down on someone who chose to have her child at home. Exactly. And that's the feeling I get about a lot of the interventions. If you accept them, you're somehow less of a woman or mother for doing so-whatever the cause, whatever the reason. I don't think women should be criticized for their choices. Especially when you may not know all the story. And, I don't think an OB should be required to take a patient for home birth if he/she feels it's dangerous to the patient. There's a reason for high-risk OB's and perinatologists-and that's because there are certain ob situations which are out of the league for the typical OB. . I'm reasonably certain no responsible OB or Midwife would take me as a home birth client with my history. In fact, many OBs don't do high risk at all-or, as mine does, does high-risk only with consultation with a perinatologist. In this case, the mother was considered to be high risk enough that the OBs and midwives who did home births didn't want to take the risk. I don't think her choosing to ignore that advice and go with an unqualified person is the fault of the OBs. They gave her their best judgement, and she refused it. -- JennL DS 06/26/98 1 tiny angel 11/03 EDD December 4 2004 aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net -- Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys with Swords |
#45
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Sad story
On Fri, 9 Jul 2004 18:18:41 -0400, "Donna"
wrote: but then again I might just have mucked up the snipping as usual! Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write above? www.homebirth.org.uk and www.aims.org.uk both have plenty cites for the sort of things Larry has talked about. Megan. -- Seoras David Montgomery, 7 May 2003, 17 hours: sunrise to sunset (homebirth) To e-mail use: megan at farr-montgomery dot com |
#46
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Sad story
The thing is, we don't know all the details. I can't imagine home birth being
soo important that I risk the life of my child, and possibly myself. I have had 5 children and 3 of those births were traumatic for me. I still would not choose to do a homebirth. But..that is not saying I look down upon those who do. I don't understand why she refused to listen the the dr's. I think it's very sad her baby died, but this makes me very mad. Most moms would run out in front of a bus to save their child, why not do a C-section if it was deemed necessary? There are no guarantees in life--I realize that, but obviously a C-section was necessary if the dr's thought so, and many midwives refused to take her on. Sure you can deliver breech babies vaginally, and they can survive( my grandma delivered a breech baby(my mom), vaginally, 61 yrs ago, ), but when there is an increases risk for fetal mortality, why take that chance? This is a human life we are talking about. Show me where it is more safe to deliver a breech baby at home vaginally, vs' in the hospital. I want to see the literature. Please post a link.. something. Jolinda |
#47
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Sad story
Donna writes:
: "Larry McMahan" wrote in message : ... : Even when medical studies show that it is inappropriate. Numerous : peer reviewed medical studies have shown that for a woman with no : known risks homebirth is always as safe, and sometimes safer than : hospital birth. : : Again, there are enough medical studies to show that pain meds do : just that. Lower apgar scores, more moribund behavior directly : after birth, more difficulty breastfeeding, as so on. These are : reasons enough for me (and thank god, for my wife, too) : : : At 40, it's just too risky...IMHO. : : Homebirth? Again, for a multipara with no contraindications, a : hospital birth at 40 is as risky or riskier than a homebirth. : : Larrry, Larry... do you have any respectable cites for any of what you write : above? You betch'ch, Donna. I would not make claims like that without! Here, you can start with these, and when you work your way through them I can give you some more. :-) I'm sure other posters will also be willing to provide cites. Happy reading, Larry Articles on the relative safety of homebirths attended by a Direct Entry Midwife versus those attended by an OB in a hospital: Abernathy, Thomas J and Dontia M Lentjes "Planned and Unplanned Home Births and Hospital Births in Calgary, Alberta, 1984-87", Public Health Reports 104 373 (1989) Planned home births: 61, Control group (Hospital): 33,777. The article does not study neonatal mortality but relies on other measures of birth outcome (Onset of respiration, duration of labor, gestational age and birth weight) Burnett IN, Claude A et al. "Home Delivery and Neonatal Mortality in North Carolina", J American Med. Assoc. 244 2741 (1980) Planned home births attended by a midwife: 768, Control group (Hospital) 242,245. Neonatal mortality: 4/ 1000 (12/1000 for the control group. Campbell, Rona et al. "Home Births in England and Wales, 1979: Perinatal Mortality According to Intended Place of Delivery", British Medical Journal 289 721 (1984) lntended homebirths 5917, no control group, NeonatalmorLality:4.1/1000. Cunningham, John D "Experiences of Australian Mothers who Gave Birth Either at Home, at a Birth Centre, or in Hospital Labour Wards", Soc. Sci. Med. 36 475 (1993) The article studies the reported birth experiences of mothers electing home births and compares them with mothers electing births in other locations. Declercq, Eugene R. "Out-of-Hospital Births, U.S., 1978: Birth Weight and Apgar Scores as Measures of Outcome", Public Health Reports 99 63 (1984) Midwife attended home births: 9,504, Control group (Hospital): 3,268,805. The article doesn't use neonatal mortality as a measure of birth outcome. Durand, A. Mark "The Safety of Home Birth: The Farm Study", Am. J Public Health 82 450 (1992) Midwife attended births: 1,707, Control group (Hospital): 14,033. Perinatal mortality 10/1000 (Control group 13/1000). Fedrick, Jean and N R Butler "Intended Place of Delivery and Perinatal Outcome", British Medical Journal 763 (1978) Home births: 156, Control group (Hospital): 14,033 Death rate 8/1000 (Control group: 13/1000) The article concludes that hospital births are safer than home births, however it makes no accounting for birth attendant. Hinds, M Ward, Gershon H Bergeisen and David T Allen "Neonatal Outcome in Planned vs Unplanned Out-of-Hospital Births in Kentucky", J. American Med. Assoc. 253 1578 (1985) Planned home births: 575, Control group unspecified. Neonatal mortality: 4/1000 (Control group: 5/1000) Mehl, Lewis E. et al. "Outcomes of Elective Home Births: A Series of 1,146 Cases", J Reprod. Med. 19 281 (1977) Perinatal mortality: 9.5/1000 (Control group: 20.3/1000) Murphy, J F et al. "Planned and Unplanned Deliveries at Home: Implications of a Changing Ratio", British Medical Journal 288 1429 (1984) Planned home births: 315, Control group: 44,52 1, Neonatal mortality: 3.2/1000 (Control group: 10.7/1000) Schneider, Dona "Planned Out-of-Hospital Births, New Jersey, 1978-1980", Soc. Sci. Med. 23 1011 (1986) Planned out-of-hospital births: 775. The article uses birth weight as a measure of outcome. It examines the demographic makeup of women electing home birth more than it examines outcome. Schramm, Wayne F et al. "Neonatal Mortality in Missouri Home Births, 1978-84", Am. J Public Health 77 930 (1987) Planned, professional-attended home births: 1770. Neonatal mortality: 5/1770 (Expected 3.92/1770) Shearer, J M L "Five Year Prospective Survey of Risk of Booking for a Home Birth in Essex", British Medical Journal 291 1478 (1985) Planned home births: 202, Control group (Hospital): 185. No perinatal deaths in either group. Other factors show home birth outcomes better than hospital births. Shy, Kerkwood K., Floyd Frost and Jean Ullom "Out-of-Hospital delivery in Washington State, 1975 to 1977", Am. J. Obtset. Gynecol. 137 547 (1980) Home births: 1614, Control group: 157,868. Neonatal mortality: 28/1614. The article concludes that home births are more dangerous but doesn't account for birth attendant. Of the 28 neonatal deaths, 15 were the result of prematurity, Of these 12 births were unattended. Sullivan, Deborah A. and Ruth Beeman "Four Years' Experience with Home Birth by Licensed Midwives in Arizona", Am. J Public Health 73 641 (1983) The article traces the decline in the number of complications in home births with time after Arizona began licensing midwives. Additional more general studies comparing the safety of home versus hospital birth. Janssen PA. Holt VL. Myers SJ Licensed midwife-attended, out-of-hospital births in Washington state: are they safe? Birth. 21(3):141-8, 1994 Sep. Woodcock HC. Read AW. Bower C. Stanley FJ. Moore DJ A matched cohort study of planned home and hospital births in Western Australia 1981-1987 Midwifery. 10(3):125-35, 1994 Sep. Sakala C. Health Policy Institute, Boston University, MA 02215 Midwifery care and out-of-hospital birth settings: how do they reduce unnecessary cesarean section births? Social Science & Medicine. 37(10):1233-50, 1993 Nov. Declercq ER. Merrimack College, North Andover, Massachusetts Where babies are born and who attends their births: findings from the revised 1989 United States Standard Certificate of Live Birth Obstetrics & Gynecology. 81(6):997-1004, 1993 Jun. van Steensel-Moll HA. van Duijn CM. Valkenburg HA. van Zanen GE. Department of Epidemiology and Biostatistics, Erasmus University Medical School, Rotterdam, The Netherlands Predominance of hospital deliveries among children with acute lymphocytic leukemia: speculations about neonatal exposure to fluorescent light Cancer Causes & Control. 3(4):389-90, 1992 Jul. Ford C. Iliffe S. Franklin O. Department of Primary Health Care, Whittington Hospital, London Outcome of planned home births in an inner city practice BMJ. 303(6816):1517-9, 1991 Dec 14. Mehl, L.E., Scientific Research on Childbirth Alternatives: What It Tells Us About Hospital Practice, in Stewart & Stewart, eds., 21st Century Obstetrics Now!, 2nd edition, Vol. 1, pp. 171-208, NAPSAC International, Marble-IEIL 1978. Outcomes of intended home births in nurse-midwifery practice: a prospective descriptive study. Murphy PA, Fullerton J Obstet Gynecol 1998 Sep;92(3):461-470 Perinatal loss in planned and unplanned home birth. The Northern Region's Perinatal Mortality Survey Coordinating Group. BMJ 1996;313:1306-9. Home versus hospital deliveries: a prospective study on matched pairs. Ackermann-Liebrich U, Voegli T, Guenther-Witt K, Kunz I, Zullig M, Schindler C, et al. BMJ 1996;313:1313-8. Outcome of planned home and planned hospital births in low risk pregnancies in the Netherlands. Wiegers T A, Keirse M J N C, van der Zee J, Berghs G A H. BMJ 1996;313:1309-13. Prospective regional study of planned home birth. Davies J, Hey E, Reid W, Young G. BMJ 1996;313:1302-5. |
#48
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Sad story
"MCranEY05" wrote Show me where it is more safe to deliver a breech baby at home vaginally, vs' in the hospital. I want to see the literature. Please post a link.. something. Here's three to begin with: http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol15...ryApproach.htm A review of "A Day at the Breech" - a presentation given by the foremost midwife in the UK pointing out the differences. Literature reference at the end. http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol14...BreechHome.htm Case studies, again with references at end. http://www.aims.org.uk/Journal/Vol12...swin2000.htm#1 A report on a study comparing c/s vs managed vaginal delivery in hospital (*not* at home as is commented on at the end) HTH Jean |
#49
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Sad story
"Iuil" wrote in message
... "ModernMiko" wrote Unfortunately there can be bad outcome no matter which route you choose. There are no guarantees in life. The best you can do is research options, facilities, providers and go from there. I am like Carol Ann in that I do not think I would ever have a homebirth. I completely support there being a choice but I think it's unfair to be looked down upon because I happen to want to have my child in a hospital. I certainly would not look down on someone who chose to have her child at home. Show me where I looked down on anyone? My DD was born in hospital, with all the technology available. But you can be damn sure that I made sure that it was being used properly! Jean That's the problem with the internet. I got a certain vibe from the way you asked Carol Ann the question. If I was wrong, I apologize. Hard to tell when you can't see facial expressions and hear someone. -- JennL DS 06/26/98 1 tiny angel 11/03 EDD December 4 2004 aka CatnipSlayer @ livin-it-up.net -- Leader of the Cult of Worshippers of BiPolar Long-Haired Sexy Anime Guys with Swords |
#50
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Sad story
I already did not want a homebirth but that is because I have only known 3
people to have homebirths and all but one had to be rushed to the hospital due to complications and the 3rd should have been but refused it even though she was hemoraging.. after that she was denied the option of a homebirth. Tori -- Bonnie 3/20/02 Xavier due 10/17/04 "Carol Ann" wrote in message news : Sadly the baby had major complications during delivery and passed away. : How : sad. : : Sad and so unnecessary. Unfortunately, it's these types of stories that : people remember and think of when they hear the words homebirth and midwife. : : : JennP. I confess to being one of those women. I would NEVER consider homebirth. ~Carol Ann Mom to Morgan 3.24.04 http://tinyurl.com/2l78p Pictures |
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