To ALL fathers Custody

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
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Of course half the marital assets should be yours--but not
more than half. And that happens far more often than you
might imagine. As long as you are careful to take
responsibility for every step you take (or agree to take),
and don't hide behind the "but my lawyer made me do it"
excuse, you should not find yourself falling into that
trap. Also, don't try to make him pay your lawyer's bills,
so you remain aware of how much it costs to do the whole
court thing. The burden is on *you* to keep things fair.

Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of them to keep things fair?

You know doggone well why, Moon. Once the system starts
rolling, HE will simply be an ATM. She will be in the
driver's seat. How do you propose that he keep things fair?
Sign over every pay check to her, and live on what she deigns
to throw back to him?

I propose that *BOTH* adults act like adults, and try to keep
things fair.

Like I said, right above - "Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of
them to keep things fair?"

And as I said right above, only she has the power to decide to
be fair. He will have to do as ordered by the court. Which you
know perfectly well.

Here, Teach - let's try this.

2 parents, both working. Only 1 is providing health insurance.
Who should be paying for the health insurance? The person
providing it, the person who earns more money, or should they
both try to be fair and split the cost?

2 parents, both working. 1 Parent has the children every
weekend. Should the child support reflect this?

2 parents, both working. 2 tax exemptions, 1 for each child.
Who should get the tax exemptions?

Let's see what your idea of fair is.


Ok, Moon, let's discuss fair.

snipping diatribe

Teach, I believe your starting premise is as screwed up as your
view of CP's.

Trying to keep things fair is NOT the responsibility of one, and
only one, person.

As long as you insist that it is, you've tossed any sense of
fairness right out the window.

When there are 2 people, it takes 2 to screw it up, and it takes 2
to try to make things fair.

You mean you are partly responsible for being abandoned by your ex?

I wasn't abandoned. Never made that claim, not once. Let's
see.......... oh yeah, I was there - I was the one who filed for
divorce.


You kicked him out?

No, I filed for divorce.


You admit some fault in the failed marriage *other* than just being
the one to file or was it just his actions or inactions that resulted
in divorce?

I couldn't be married to him anymore. I filed for divorce.

Phil #3


Perhaps, but I disagree with your overall statement.
No matter how wonderful things are, it only takes one to screw it
up and in today's world, it only takes one to make the result
unfair.
Phil #3

Complete and total sidestep.
Typical.
Don't you just hate it when your own words bite you in the ass?
Phil #3

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Of course half the marital assets should be yours--but not
more than half. And that happens far more often than you might
imagine. As long as you are careful to take responsibility for
every step you take (or agree to take), and don't hide behind
the "but my lawyer made me do it" excuse, you should not find
yourself falling into that trap. Also, don't try to make him
pay your lawyer's bills, so you remain aware of how much it
costs to do the whole court thing. The burden is on *you* to
keep things fair.

Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of them to keep things fair?

You know doggone well why, Moon. Once the system starts
rolling, HE will simply be an ATM. She will be in the driver's
seat. How do you propose that he keep things fair? Sign over
every pay check to her, and live on what she deigns to throw
back to him?

I propose that *BOTH* adults act like adults, and try to keep
things fair.

Like I said, right above - "Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of
them to keep things fair?"

And as I said right above, only she has the power to decide to be
fair. He will have to do as ordered by the court. Which you know
perfectly well.

Here, Teach - let's try this.

2 parents, both working. Only 1 is providing health insurance. Who
should be paying for the health insurance? The person providing
it, the person who earns more money, or should they both try to be
fair and split the cost?

2 parents, both working. 1 Parent has the children every weekend.
Should the child support reflect this?

2 parents, both working. 2 tax exemptions, 1 for each child. Who
should get the tax exemptions?

Let's see what your idea of fair is.


Ok, Moon, let's discuss fair.

snipping diatribe

Teach, I believe your starting premise is as screwed up as your view
of CP's.

Trying to keep things fair is NOT the responsibility of one, and only
one, person.

As long as you insist that it is, you've tossed any sense of fairness
right out the window.

When there are 2 people, it takes 2 to screw it up, and it takes 2 to
try to make things fair.

You mean you are partly responsible for being abandoned by your ex?

I wasn't abandoned. Never made that claim, not once. Let's
see.......... oh yeah, I was there - I was the one who filed for
divorce.


You kicked him out?

No, I filed for divorce.


You admit some fault in the failed marriage *other* than just being the
one to file or was it just his actions or inactions that resulted in
divorce?

I couldn't be married to him anymore. I filed for divorce.

Phil #3


Perhaps, but I disagree with your overall statement.
No matter how wonderful things are, it only takes one to screw it up
and in today's world, it only takes one to make the result unfair.
Phil #3

Complete and total sidestep.
Typical.
Don't you just hate it when your own words bite you in the ass?

What sidestep? You asked if I kicked him out, and I did not.

You asked about the reasons for my divorce (which is none of your business),
and I answered - I couldn't be married to him anymore.


Phil #3

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It really sounds as if you think you are trying to be fair. But
there
is
an
unfortunate trap you seem to be about to walk in to. The "but I
only
want
what he owes me" trap. Why is 17% a fair amount? Who determined
that?
Have you actually sat down and figured out an amount that would
get
you
through the month without a shortfall? Is it *really* a full 17%
of
his
pay? Does your child spend time with his father? If so, dad
needs
to
have
everything you need for the child. It isn't as if his expenses
have
disappeared.

Also keep in mind that you have some great tax advantages. You
pay
no
taxes
on the child support. And YOU get to claim the child on you
taxes.
I
believe you also get to file as head of household, which further
decreases
your tax burden. He will be paying taxes at the higher single
rate.

Oh, another thing. Are you going to be telling the court that he
has
not
paid you a thin dime in 10 months? If so, he will have an
outomatic
arrearage, with all the joys of having even more money taken
straight
from
his paycheck, plus interest charges, and a big fat black mark on
his
credit
report. And if he is ever injoured or laid off, the arrearages
will
grow
and grow and grow. You, however, can be injured or laid off
without
any
consequence other than being short of cash.

Do you have a written budget? My suggestion is that you prepare
one,
and
take a good hard look at it. I know that there are things that
you
want
to
be able to provide for your son that you maight consider to be
indispenseable. But, being very honest, divide your budget into
essential
items and negotiable items. Then have your child's father take a
look
at
what you really need, and give him a voice in the negotiable
items.
That
way he will be a part of the decision making, and will see that
you
are
not
trying to gouge him, but truly do need the money. And make sure
that
you
recognize his expenses, too. Say it over and over so he knows
you
understand. Communication isn't something that just
happens--sometimes
you
have to work at it--sometimes you have to work harder than you've
ever
worked in your life. But your son is worth it, right?

And, above all, don't fall into the "he owes me" trap. The fact
that
the
state of NY says is doesn't make it true.


The 17% is determined by State law, but adjustable. Getting
through
the
month without a shortfall is not up to him alone. If there is a
short
fall, the custodial parent needs to search for more lucrative
employment.

My impression is that she does work. And I most certainly did not
say
anything about his making up shortfalls. I said to look at what is
really
needed, and proceed from there. Work together to come up with a
plan
that
is mutually agreeable--not get into the "I am owed" mindset. It
will
probably come out to far less than the 17% decreed by law.

How about each parent take care of the child when said child is with
them.

So who provides the child with health insurance?

Whoever FEELS like it.

And if no one FEELS like it?

What if?




And what about clothing? Shall we send the children stark naked, so
that
the parent with whom the child is staying provides their clothing?

If it trips your trigger, go for it.

What would YOU recommend? It was *your* proposal that states "How about
each parent take care of the child when said child is with them."

Children need clothing - so who provides it?

It's provided by each parent just like anything else. What part of my
statement did you NOT understand?

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It really sounds as if you think you are trying to be fair. But
there
is
an
unfortunate trap you seem to be about to walk in to. The "but I
only
want
what he owes me" trap. Why is 17% a fair amount? Who determined
that?
Have you actually sat down and figured out an amount that would
get you
through the month without a shortfall? Is it *really* a full 17%
of
his
pay? Does your child spend time with his father? If so, dad
needs to
have
everything you need for the child. It isn't as if his expenses
have
disappeared.

Also keep in mind that you have some great tax advantages. You
pay no
taxes
on the child support. And YOU get to claim the child on you
taxes. I
believe you also get to file as head of household, which further
decreases
your tax burden. He will be paying taxes at the higher single
rate.

Oh, another thing. Are you going to be telling the court that he
has
not
paid you a thin dime in 10 months? If so, he will have an
outomatic
arrearage, with all the joys of having even more money taken
straight
from
his paycheck, plus interest charges, and a big fat black mark on
his
credit
report. And if he is ever injoured or laid off, the arrearages
will
grow
and grow and grow. You, however, can be injured or laid off
without
any
consequence other than being short of cash.

Do you have a written budget? My suggestion is that you prepare
one,
and
take a good hard look at it. I know that there are things that
you
want
to
be able to provide for your son that you maight consider to be
indispenseable. But, being very honest, divide your budget into
essential
items and negotiable items. Then have your child's father take a
look
at
what you really need, and give him a voice in the negotiable
items.
That
way he will be a part of the decision making, and will see that
you are
not
trying to gouge him, but truly do need the money. And make sure
that
you
recognize his expenses, too. Say it over and over so he knows
you
understand. Communication isn't something that just
happens--sometimes
you
have to work at it--sometimes you have to work harder than you've
ever
worked in your life. But your son is worth it, right?

And, above all, don't fall into the "he owes me" trap. The fact
that
the
state of NY says is doesn't make it true.


The 17% is determined by State law, but adjustable. Getting
through the
month without a shortfall is not up to him alone. If there is a
short
fall, the custodial parent needs to search for more lucrative
employment.

My impression is that she does work. And I most certainly did not
say
anything about his making up shortfalls. I said to look at what is
really
needed, and proceed from there. Work together to come up with a
plan that
is mutually agreeable--not get into the "I am owed" mindset. It
will
probably come out to far less than the 17% decreed by law.

How about each parent take care of the child when said child is with
them.

So who provides the child with health insurance?

And what about clothing? Shall we send the children stark naked, so
that the parent with whom the child is staying provides their
clothing?

You mean to tell me that you would send your children naked to their
father's house rather than letting them wear the clothing you have
provided for them?

No, that's now what I'm saying.

Chris says that each parent take care of child when said child is with
him. I was asking him how he intended to handle items that would need to
cross between parents.

Why would any loving parent do that?

I dunno - I was the parent that sent clothing, toiletries, toys and
books to their dad's home so they would have things in both places.

Then why even bring it up?

I was trying to get Chris to clarify what he posted. This is a problem
for you?

I don't see anywhere that he mentioned clothes at all. One would assume
that they wear clothing in both households--and that they go dressed and
return dressed. Why is this even an issue?

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
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Chris wrote:
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It really sounds as if you think you are trying to be fair. But

there

is

an
unfortunate trap you seem to be about to walk in to. The "but I

only

want
what he owes me" trap. Why is 17% a fair amount? Who determined
that?
Have you actually sat down and figured out an amount that would get
you
through the month without a shortfall? Is it *really* a full 17% of

his

pay? Does your child spend time with his father? If so, dad needs

to

have
everything you need for the child. It isn't as if his expenses have
disappeared.

Also keep in mind that you have some great tax advantages. You pay

no

taxes
on the child support. And YOU get to claim the child on you taxes.

I

believe you also get to file as head of household, which further
decreases
your tax burden. He will be paying taxes at the higher single rate.

Oh, another thing. Are you going to be telling the court that he

has

not

paid you a thin dime in 10 months? If so, he will have an outomatic
arrearage, with all the joys of having even more money taken

straight

from
his paycheck, plus interest charges, and a big fat black mark on his
credit
report. And if he is ever injoured or laid off, the arrearages will

grow

and grow and grow. You, however, can be injured or laid off without

any

consequence other than being short of cash.

Do you have a written budget? My suggestion is that you prepare

one,

and

take a good hard look at it. I know that there are things that you

want

to
be able to provide for your son that you maight consider to be
indispenseable. But, being very honest, divide your budget into
essential
items and negotiable items. Then have your child's father take a

look

at

what you really need, and give him a voice in the negotiable items.

That

way he will be a part of the decision making, and will see that you
are
not
trying to gouge him, but truly do need the money. And make sure

that

you

recognize his expenses, too. Say it over and over so he knows you
understand. Communication isn't something that just
happens--sometimes
you
have to work at it--sometimes you have to work harder than you've

ever

worked in your life. But your son is worth it, right?

And, above all, don't fall into the "he owes me" trap. The fact

that

the

state of NY says is doesn't make it true.


The 17% is determined by State law, but adjustable. Getting through

the

month without a shortfall is not up to him alone. If there is a short
fall, the custodial parent needs to search for more lucrative
employment.

My impression is that she does work. And I most certainly did not say
anything about his making up shortfalls. I said to look at what is
really
needed, and proceed from there. Work together to come up with a plan
that
is mutually agreeable--not get into the "I am owed" mindset. It will
probably come out to far less than the 17% decreed by law.

How about each parent take care of the child when said child is with

them.

So who provides the child with health insurance?


Whoever FEELS like it.

More like, whoever doesn't want to pay the medical costs not covered by
insurance. Health insurance is NOT necessary to raise a child.



And what about clothing? Shall we send the children stark naked, so
that
the parent with whom the child is staying provides their clothing?


If it trips your trigger, go for it.


Stumpy once again shows how petty and asinine she is. Clothes are not
"consumed" like food. They are simply returned with the child when they
return to the opposing parent.

Chris stated that each parent provides for the child when said child is
with that parent.

I'll ask again - who provides for the items that need to cross between the
parents? The one who FEELS like it, as was his answer about health
insurance? What happens when neither parent FEELS like it.

Chris's suggestion was assinine.

I kind of feel that way about your statement that children should be
stripped naked before being sent to the other parent's house. Who would do
such a thing?

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Of course half the marital assets should be yours--but not
more than
half. And that happens far more often than you might
imagine. As
long
as you are careful to take responsibility for every step
you take
(or
agree to take), and don't hide behind the "but my lawyer
made me do
it" excuse, you should not find yourself falling into that
trap.
Also, don't try to make him pay your lawyer's bills, so
you remain
aware of how much it costs to do the whole court thing.
The burden
is
on *you* to keep things fair.

Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of them to keep things fair?

You know doggone well why, Moon. Once the system starts
rolling, HE
will simply be an ATM. She will be in the driver's seat.
How do you
propose that he keep things fair? Sign over every pay check
to her,
and
live on what she deigns to throw back to him?

I propose that *BOTH* adults act like adults, and try to keep
things
fair.

Like I said, right above - "Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of
them to
keep things fair?"

And as I said right above, only she has the power to decide to
be fair.
He will have to do as ordered by the court. Which you know
perfectly
well.

Here, Teach - let's try this.

2 parents, both working. Only 1 is providing health insurance.
Who
should
be paying for the health insurance? The person providing it,
the person
who
earns more money, or should they both try to be fair and split
the cost?

In my state healthcare insurance is at the discretion of the CP.
They can
select the NCP's coverage or provide their own coverage. In
either case,
the premiums are pro-rated based on their relative incomes and
any
unreimbursed healthcare expenses are pro-rated too. So the
higher income
parent pays more for premiums and for unreimbursed expenses.


2 parents, both working. 1 Parent has the children every
weekend. Should
the child support reflect this?

It already does. Right now CS is calculated based on one parent
having the
children 100% of the time. CS would not change for the parent
having the
chidlren 100% of the time, but it should be reduced when the
other parent
has visitations becasue the costs of NCP children expenses are
not included
in any CS award that is not based on a parenting agreement.


2 parents, both working. 2 tax exemptions, 1 for each child.
Who should
get the tax exemptions?

By default the CP gets both child exemptions. Fairness would be
to give one
up, but that only happens when the CP decides to share the
financial
benefit.


Let's see what your idea of fair is.

Now let's test your concept of fairness.

A mother has an affair and decides to leave husband for her new
main
squeeze.

Should the husband be removed from the family home by restaining
order?
No

Ah, but the mom can get custody anf force this to happen. UNFAIR
on her part--but a very normal scenario. What could he do to make
it more fair?

Nice try teach - I see that you've totally ignored my questions for
you.

Pretty telling.

Enjoy your bias.

(hint for you - not all women act in the way you ASSume they do and
not all men are the perfect angels you would like to portray)

Actually, Moon, I have never made all moms out to be that way--you
simply don't like it being pointed out that women who choose to
behave that way have the court's backing to do so. Nor have I ever
said that I think all men are angels--I am perfectly aware that there
are men who do not care what the court orders--they do as they
please. However, no matter how you slice it, WOMEN have the
overwhelming advantage in today's biased system. No matter what
little questions you come up with. All of which are decided by the
court in most places.

And how does ANY of that prevent *BOTH* parties from trying to keep
things fair?

How coan MEN keep it fair, Moon, when they are given NO POWER or
backing in the system. Only the MOTHER, who has the power to take it
all, has the power to be fair. You are purposely beinmg obtuse.

Not at all - I find this "men as victim" line of yours pretty tedious,
though.
To read your posts, men either need to be given power by mom, or they
need to be given power by "the system".

Whether you like it or not, men have no power within the system. If mom
wants the ful pound of flesh exacted byt the eyetem, she gets it, and
there is nothing he can do about it. Only SHE can decide not to take so
much.. He has NO POWER to make the it more fair. It doesn't matter how
often you try to assert that HE can make the process more fair--he can't.

Noe, believe it or not, the fact that a man has no power to make the
system work in a more fair way does not make him a victim. It just means
that he has n power to make changes in that one aea of his life--which
does, indeed, affect other areas of his life. But he has the power to
make of the rest of his life anything he wants to make of it.

You talk often enough about your kids' fther walking out and not looking
back. You have absolutely no power in that area--does that mean that
*you* are a victim, Moon?

Nope. What he does has zero effect on me. It DOES, however, make these
kids victims of his poor behavior.

I certainly hope you are not teaching your children that they are victims!
Everyone needs to play the cards they are dealt, and not liking your cards
should never make you sit down and pout!

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Of course half the marital assets should be yours--but not
more than half. And that happens far more often than you
might imagine. As long as you are careful to take
responsibility for every step you take (or agree to take),
and don't hide behind the "but my lawyer made me do it"
excuse, you should not find yourself falling into that trap.
Also, don't try to make him pay your lawyer's bills, so you
remain aware of how much it costs to do the whole court
thing. The burden is on *you* to keep things fair.

Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of them to keep things fair?

You know doggone well why, Moon. Once the system starts
rolling, HE will simply be an ATM. She will be in the driver's
seat. How do you propose that he keep things fair? Sign over
every pay check to her, and live on what she deigns to throw
back to him?

I propose that *BOTH* adults act like adults, and try to keep
things fair.

Like I said, right above - "Why isn't the burden on *BOTH* of
them to keep things fair?"

And as I said right above, only she has the power to decide to be
fair. He will have to do as ordered by the court. Which you know
perfectly well.

Here, Teach - let's try this.

2 parents, both working. Only 1 is providing health insurance.
Who should be paying for the health insurance? The person
providing it, the person who earns more money, or should they both
try to be fair and split the cost?

2 parents, both working. 1 Parent has the children every weekend.
Should the child support reflect this?

2 parents, both working. 2 tax exemptions, 1 for each child. Who
should get the tax exemptions?

Let's see what your idea of fair is.


Ok, Moon, let's discuss fair.

snipping diatribe

Teach, I believe your starting premise is as screwed up as your view
of CP's.

Trying to keep things fair is NOT the responsibility of one, and
only one, person.

As long as you insist that it is, you've tossed any sense of
fairness right out the window.

When there are 2 people, it takes 2 to screw it up, and it takes 2
to try to make things fair.

You mean you are partly responsible for being abandoned by your ex?

I wasn't abandoned. Never made that claim, not once. Let's
see.......... oh yeah, I was there - I was the one who filed for
divorce.


You kicked him out?

No, I filed for divorce.


You admit some fault in the failed marriage *other* than just being the
one to file or was it just his actions or inactions that resulted in
divorce?

I couldn't be married to him anymore. I filed for divorce.

Phil #3


Perhaps, but I disagree with your overall statement.
No matter how wonderful things are, it only takes one to screw it up
and in today's world, it only takes one to make the result unfair.
Phil #3

Complete and total sidestep.
Typical.
Don't you just hate it when your own words bite you in the ass?

What sidestep? You asked if I kicked him out, and I did not.

You asked about the reasons for my divorce (which is none of your
business), and I answered - I couldn't be married to him anymore.

Actually, Moon, you stated that " When there are 2 people, it takes 2 to
screw it up."

So the question was, did you, also, screw things up in your marriage--not
just ex-hubby? AND, kin the whole CS court battle that followed, with its
disagreementsm etc, did you also have a part in the difficulties that you
dealt with. (IOW, did you help screw things up there, too?)

Children need clothing - so who provides it?

The one receiving child support!

"teachrmama" wrote
............................

I don't see anywhere that he mentioned clothes at all. One would assume
that they wear clothing in both households--and that they go dressed and
return dressed. Why is this even an issue?
==
Because Moon thrives on issues--one after the other, after the other, ad
nauseum.

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"P Fritz" wrote in message
...
Chris wrote:
"Moon Shyne" wrote in message
...

"Chris" wrote in message
...

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Relayer" wrote in message
ooglegroups.com...

It really sounds as if you think you are trying to be fair. But

there

is

an
unfortunate trap you seem to be about to walk in to. The "but I

only

want
what he owes me" trap. Why is 17% a fair amount? Who determined
that?
Have you actually sat down and figured out an amount that would get
you
through the month without a shortfall? Is it *really* a full 17%
of

his

pay? Does your child spend time with his father? If so, dad needs

to

have
everything you need for the child. It isn't as if his expenses
have
disappeared.

Also keep in mind that you have some great tax advantages. You pay

no

taxes
on the child support. And YOU get to claim the child on you taxes.

I

believe you also get to file as head of household, which further
decreases
your tax burden. He will be paying taxes at the higher single
rate.

Oh, another thing. Are you going to be telling the court that he

has

not

paid you a thin dime in 10 months? If so, he will have an
outomatic
arrearage, with all the joys of having even more money taken

straight

from
his paycheck, plus interest charges, and a big fat black mark on
his
credit
report. And if he is ever injoured or laid off, the arrearages
will

grow

and grow and grow. You, however, can be injured or laid off
without

any

consequence other than being short of cash.

Do you have a written budget? My suggestion is that you prepare

one,

and

take a good hard look at it. I know that there are things that you

want

to
be able to provide for your son that you maight consider to be
indispenseable. But, being very honest, divide your budget into
essential
items and negotiable items. Then have your child's father take a

look

at

what you really need, and give him a voice in the negotiable items.

That

way he will be a part of the decision making, and will see that you
are
not
trying to gouge him, but truly do need the money. And make sure

that

you

recognize his expenses, too. Say it over and over so he knows you
understand. Communication isn't something that just
happens--sometimes
you
have to work at it--sometimes you have to work harder than you've

ever

worked in your life. But your son is worth it, right?

And, above all, don't fall into the "he owes me" trap. The fact

that

the

state of NY says is doesn't make it true.


The 17% is determined by State law, but adjustable. Getting through

the

month without a shortfall is not up to him alone. If there is a
short
fall, the custodial parent needs to search for more lucrative
employment.

My impression is that she does work. And I most certainly did not
say
anything about his making up shortfalls. I said to look at what is
really
needed, and proceed from there. Work together to come up with a plan
that
is mutually agreeable--not get into the "I am owed" mindset. It will
probably come out to far less than the 17% decreed by law.

How about each parent take care of the child when said child is with

them.

So who provides the child with health insurance?


Whoever FEELS like it.

More like, whoever doesn't want to pay the medical costs not covered by
insurance. Health insurance is NOT necessary to raise a child.



And what about clothing? Shall we send the children stark naked, so
that
the parent with whom the child is staying provides their clothing?


If it trips your trigger, go for it.


Stumpy once again shows how petty and asinine she is. Clothes are not
"consumed" like food. They are simply returned with the child when they
return to the opposing parent.

Chris stated that each parent provides for the child when said child is
with that parent.

I'll ask again - who provides for the items that need to cross between
the parents? The one who FEELS like it, as was his answer about health
insurance? What happens when neither parent FEELS like it.

Chris's suggestion was assinine.

I kind of feel that way about your statement that children should be
stripped naked before being sent to the other parent's house. Who would
do such a thing?

It was not meant as a suggestion, though clearly, you didn't understand
that.