Stubborn 4 year old boy.

On Tue, 19 Feb 2008 19:41:24 -0800 (PST), hedgehog42
wrote:

On Feb 19, 4:27 pm, Beliavsky wrote:


Another view of human nature is that children
are born little savages that need to be civilized by their parents.
Conservative Christians would talk of "original sin", but one can be
an atheist and have a similar philosophy.

I know people who hold this view. A lot of them don't really enjoy
parenting. Easy to see why.

It doesn't strike me as a particularly civilized, or effective, to
think of children as "other." In my experience, kids respond better
when you treat them as people rather than alien beings or wild
animals. It does take awhile for them to learn the specifics of
living in a community with others, yes, but I've found kids generally
want to please adults who take the time to engage them.

Lori

I agree. I also suggest to those who think otherwise that they read
A General Theory of Love by Thomas Lewis, Fari Amini, and Richard
Lannin. This book goes into the neurology and biology of our
emotional dependence on others. While the theories are not proven,
they make intuitive sense and there is some research to back up what
they are saying.

(Anyone know where Glen Appleby is or if he is still alive? I miss
that man and this was one of many books he recommended to me).


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

On Thu, 21 Feb 2008 10:33:23 -0800 (PST), Beliavsky
wrote:

They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children today
less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago? Are they
nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of violence, of
depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

Nice, but untrue:

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/cvict_c.htm

Trends (in the United States)
Since 1994, violent crime rates have declined, reaching the lowest
level ever recorded in 2005.




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

In article , Banty
wrote:

Correct -- the canonical electrocution method for the pre-school set. I had
no idea you called them something else (or why would M$ call their product
that?).

You can make your (presentation) points with power?

Certainly, but I never thought it was just a bit of alliteration.

Al la "An Inconvenient
Truth".

Al la instead of a la? Was that a pun or a Freudian slip?

Please don't tell me there's a PP presentation involved in it. Of all the
buggy products of the Evil Empire, PP has to be the worst.

I call what you call "powerpoints" "electrical outlets". Check
alt.home.repair.

I'm quite sure I'd have to develop a dictionary before involving myself there.
I was reading a Decorator Quiz (from a North American magazine online) a while
back and was stumped when asked to define "Pelmet", because none of the
answers were right. I can't figure out how building terms, which are often
old words, can come to vary so much! Particle board, plasterboard, skirting
boards, pelmets, cornices... I'd be worried I was about to do something wrong
due to a failure in translation!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

http://chookiesbackyard.blogspot.com/

Beliavsky wrote:
They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children today
less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago? Are they
nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of violence, of
depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

JB: So why haven't the advice-givers noticed that their advice is not
having the predicted effects?



I think it is because the advice is not really followed. Often times
positive discipline is not used at all, but replaced with NO discipline. God
I had some unruly kids in my daycare. The conversation needs to be changed
from smack or do nothing to include actual effective methods of positive
discipline, IMO. I challenge you to go to the library and get and READ the
books I mention above.

On Feb 21, 10:33 am, Beliavsky wrote:

Since a large number of parents actually listen to the advice, kids
today are being raised very differently from the way their
grandparents were raised. They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children today
less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago? Are they
nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of violence, of
depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

And rates of depression and suicide among these children's parents and
grandparents (who were raised "properly") have stayed stable or
improved? I only wish. Whatever it is that's making depression more
common, it can't be disciplinary styles or it wouldn't be across the
ages. The violence myth has already been addressed.

Kate, ignorant foot soldier of the medical cartel
and the Bug, 4 years old
and something brewing, 4/08

In article ehrebeniuk-800E00.22491922022008@news, Chookie says...

In article , Banty
wrote:

Correct -- the canonical electrocution method for the pre-school set. I had
no idea you called them something else (or why would M$ call their product
that?).

You can make your (presentation) points with power?

Certainly, but I never thought it was just a bit of alliteration.

I did


Al la "An Inconvenient
Truth".

Al la instead of a la? Was that a pun or a Freudian slip?

Tupo. (Where would the pun be?)


Please don't tell me there's a PP presentation involved in it. Of all the
buggy products of the Evil Empire, PP has to be the worst.

That's the usual statement about the documentary, even from supporters. A lot
of it is a Powerpoint presentation. I don't know if another presentation
application was used.

Banty (used to use Lotus, but the Evil Empire won out at my workplace..)

In article , Stephanie says...

Beliavsky wrote:
They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children today
less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago? Are they
nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of violence, of
depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

JB: So why haven't the advice-givers noticed that their advice is not
having the predicted effects?



I think it is because the advice is not really followed. Often times
positive discipline is not used at all, but replaced with NO discipline. God
I had some unruly kids in my daycare. The conversation needs to be changed
from smack or do nothing to include actual effective methods of positive
discipline, IMO. I challenge you to go to the library and get and READ the
books I mention above.




Yep. That article hidden-assumptioned consistent and competent implementation,
then post-hoc ergo propter hoc'ed to the desired conclusion. Then mis-tated
easily verifiable facts to support it. And the inherent false dilemma of the
whole framing of the question, as you noted. How many logic problems can be
packed in a single article?


Back to parenting - yes, a lot of times there's no discipline; a lot of times
what passes for "discipline" is really frustration/anger venting by the parent.

Banty

In article ,
Akuvikate says...

On Feb 21, 10:33 am, Beliavsky wrote:

Since a large number of parents actually listen to the advice, kids
today are being raised very differently from the way their
grandparents were raised. They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children today
less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago? Are they
nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of violence, of
depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

And rates of depression and suicide among these children's parents and
grandparents (who were raised "properly") have stayed stable or
improved? I only wish. Whatever it is that's making depression more
common, it can't be disciplinary styles or it wouldn't be across the
ages. The violence myth has already been addressed.


Gimme that spanking article - I want to slice it. I'm running out of swiss
cheese for my sandwich, and there's a snowstorm out.

Cheers,
Banty

Banty wrote:
In article , Stephanie
says...

Beliavsky wrote:
They're getting more praise and kisses,
fewer smacks and scoldings. Now ask yourself this: Are children
today less aggressive than they were two or three generations ago?
Are they nicer? Are they happier? The answer is no. Rates of
violence, of depression, and of suicide have gone up, not down.

JB: So why haven't the advice-givers noticed that their advice is
not having the predicted effects?



I think it is because the advice is not really followed. Often times
positive discipline is not used at all, but replaced with NO
discipline. God I had some unruly kids in my daycare. The
conversation needs to be changed from smack or do nothing to
include actual effective methods of positive discipline, IMO. I
challenge you to go to the library and get and READ the books I
mention above.




Yep. That article hidden-assumptioned consistent and competent
implementation, then post-hoc ergo propter hoc'ed to the desired
conclusion. Then mis-tated easily verifiable facts to support it.
And the inherent false dilemma of the whole framing of the question,
as you noted. How many logic problems can be packed in a single
article?


Back to parenting - yes, a lot of times there's no discipline; a lot
of times what passes for "discipline" is really frustration/anger
venting by the parent.

Banty


Can you say Amen and Alleluhia? There was one family that coaxed, pleaded,
cajoled, whined and begged. Until they lost their minds and screamed
obsenities. Then they thought there was something wrong with the *kids*. Oy
Vay.

Chookie wrote:

In article , Banty
wrote:


Correct -- the canonical electrocution method for the pre-school set. I had
no idea you called them something else (or why would M$ call their product
that?).

You can make your (presentation) points with power?


Certainly, but I never thought it was just a bit of alliteration.


Al la "An Inconvenient
Truth".


Al la instead of a la? Was that a pun or a Freudian slip?

Please don't tell me there's a PP presentation involved in it. Of all the
buggy products of the Evil Empire, PP has to be the worst.


I call what you call "powerpoints" "electrical outlets". Check
alt.home.repair.


I'm quite sure I'd have to develop a dictionary before involving myself there.
I was reading a Decorator Quiz (from a North American magazine online) a while
back and was stumped when asked to define "Pelmet", because none of the
answers were right. I can't figure out how building terms, which are often
old words, can come to vary so much! Particle board, plasterboard, skirting
boards, pelmets, cornices... I'd be worried I was about to do something wrong
due to a failure in translation!


Heck, I never heard of a pelmet. When I looked it up, I realized it was
what I've always called a cornice.

Clisby