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#71
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Charles:
Naw, they won't come up with another recording. That's like asking the Moonies to change their religion. The CONTEXT of the spanking on the recording is fragmented as well. If the parent gave the kid lots of freedom to manage their own time, but demanded scholastic performance, and the kid WASTED lots of time goofing off, watching TV, etc... and the clear message was that bad performance was not acceptable, this might be the FOLLOW THROUGH. It's possible this is just the child come uppance for their bad choices. Alternatively, Kane and others would call somebody a CONTROL FREAK if they would up front prevent the wasted time and MICRO MANAGE the situation. They set up a situation where no matter which way a parent goes, they can FIND FAULT either way! I view micro management as comparable to training wheels, taken off as the kid learns to manage things appropriately THEMSELVES. When a person is micro managed, they generally long VERY MUCH for the day they can manage the situation themselves. Is it possible the kid in this recording played a CON by asserting they had grades under control, and this spanking is because they were being DISHONEST? Aren't LIES and DISHONESTY really the biggest reasons for spanking? Perhaps Kane and his sock puppets should be spanked? Deviousness, deceipt, lies... |
#72
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Chris wrote: http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/ReportCard.htm Those who have traumatic issues about corporal punishment in childhood should use discretion. This sound file can be extremely upsetting. Chris I'm curious when people feel that if something upsets us physically, it must be evil. You see this often when pro-life protesters hold up pictures of abortions. They could hold up pictures of knee surgeries & I'd get just as nauseated. But I don't go around marching to ban knee surgeries, because I don't like how they look....or sound. I'm not claiming this is the only reason people use to prove something is wrong, only that it isn't a very relevant one. Something may be shocking, unpleasant, nauseating.....and still be totally desirable & necessary. |
#73
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Darryl wrote: Chris wrote: http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/ReportCard.htm Those who have traumatic issues about corporal punishment in childhood should use discretion. This sound file can be extremely upsetting. Chris I'm curious when people feel that if something upsets us physically, it must be evil. I guess you don't real?ly want to address his caution then. What made you think he meant physically? You see this often when pro-life protesters hold up pictures of abortions. Yes. That's true. It does tend to produce a viseral response in one. They could hold up pictures of knee surgeries & I'd get just as nauseated. I see, you weren't thinking about other's responses, only your own, and those tend to manifest physically. Okay. But I don't go around marching to ban knee surgeries, because I don't like how they look....or sound. You have found someone "marching" over the sound file of the spanking? Odd, it's far more likely you will see spankers, that have gone over the limit, marching in protest against those that caught them.....child protection agencies. I'm not claiming this is the only reason people use to prove something is wrong, only that it isn't a very relevant one. Something may be shocking, unpleasant, nauseating.....and still be totally desirable & necessary. Ah, now we get to the area that is debatable. Would you mind pursuing this further by presenting your arguments for the desirability and necessity for spanking, or other ways of applying corporal punishment? I hope there will be something new and creative. In the life of this ng so many bogus arguments for it have been shot down that I believed there were no new arguments in favor...so I keep trying to come up with some variations on old ones. In fact my latest, only a few months old, might interest you. Enthusiactic Child Spanking advocates and supporters have been known to claim they, and parents, know their child best, so can best judge, not the state through law or other means, the limits of pain, impact, humiliation, etc. that goes with spanking so that they will not go over the line into abusive injury of the child. It's entirely possible they may be right. It's beyond ME of course, but then I never had any practice at it, being a non-spanker by choice, who had children of my own to raise. So, can you answer The Question? (google on it in this Usenet newsgroup before you start so you won't waste your time with redefining the question itself, and redoing all the failed attempts of others in the past). Where is that line? For it to be of practical use to parents considering continuing spanking or taking it up with their newborns, it has to be at least as explicit as a traffic speed control sign. Easy to read, understand, and apply to human children. Just as 55 MPH is to the driver who drives the car down the road under varying conditions This should be perfectly easy, considering in this country probably the parents of 90% of believe they know, and chose therefor to spank. I look forward to a lively fun-filled debate. Or you can run. It's no shame to refuse to volunteer. Your choice. Kane |
#74
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http://www.geocities.com/cddugan/ReportCard.htm
Those who have traumatic issues about corporal punishment in childhood should use discretion. This sound file can be extremely upsetting. Chris |
#75
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Micro-managed, l never thought of this context. Perhaps you are on to
something here.....In short, it is a real job to do good parenting now....There are so many distractions for our children. From tv, movies, school, home, work, friends, ect.....for some children, its hard to balance. They just have to keep focused on the fact that now adays they must do well in school to suceed well in the out side world. Lifes rewards are given for performance, and attitude,and honesty. But, they should not lose sight of the small items that bond family together. (Things that money and gifts cannot buy). |
#76
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Greegor wrote: Charles: Naw, they won't come up with another recording. That's like asking the Moonies to change their religion. You are probably correct. It would be exceedingly rare someone would gather and release the very evidence themselves that show what miserably failed human beings they ar.......oh, sorry. S'cuse me. I forgot. The CONTEXT of the spanking on the recording is fragmented as well. No, it's simply not totally clear. If one thinks their way through it, objectively, and let's go of their own self protective neuritic filtering of the content it comes through pretty clearly. The child got in trouble at school. She is terrified of what's coming...the rest all there, quite clearly. You just can't deal with brutal reality and seek some escape route. If the parent gave the kid lots of freedom to manage their own time, but demanded scholastic performance, and the kid WASTED lots of time goofing off, watching TV, etc... and the clear message was that bad performance was not acceptable, this might be the FOLLOW THROUGH. If wishes were horses beggers would ride. But they aren't. And your premise isn't very reasonable or likely in a family that does not use terrorist parenting tactics on their children. I've found children from the kinds of families mine was have children that are exceedingly, to the point of worry sometimes, self managing and voracious learners. One has to remind them that play is a task for their minds and bodies, and a learning in and of itself. It's possible this is just the child come uppance for their bad choices. "Come uppance" [sic]. Now there's a venerable old rationale for doing harm to others. I wonder at its etiology. Hmm..interesting that it means getting one's just rewards, bad...OR GOOD. Isnt' that nice. Alternatively, Kane and others would call somebody a CONTROL FREAK if they would up front prevent the wasted time and MICRO MANAGE the situation. No, just stupid if they were not supporting the child's natural desire to learn and forcing learning on them. One of humanities more ugly follies. The rage, and stupidity, it creates is phenomenal. A good teacher inspires, a lousy one perspires. They set up a situation where no matter which way a parent goes, they can FIND FAULT either way! CPS? You are getting to slide on over into CPS chat now? R R R ... You ever make an argument about CPS didn't wreak of just that ploy? No, I don't find fault with parents for children that don't seem to be performing. I blame society and a few dozen generations that forgot..well let it be stolen from them...that humans are avid lifelong learners. The burghers, merchants of the age of enlightment, used their wealth to hire teachers for them...themselves, so they might become more aware of the world and other ways of seeing, and being shown new things. I hear they named their little private schools, "University" because that is what they wanted to know more of..the universe. And they had never gone to public school. Most were unlettered to start with, so monks were among the first hired to teach them to read and write. I view micro management as comparable to training wheels, taken off as the kid learns to manage things appropriately THEMSELVES. Of course you do because you are a classic Pavlovian Behaviorist. You throttle the natural and powerful desire to learn...about everything, even about how to overcome a weak bladder sphincter. Instead of support you impose YOUR beliefs about the right way. Eistein would have been a shoe clerk, a lousy one no doubt, had his parents been like you. As it was, they let this shy, dedicated jewish orthodox child, a terribly slow learner, go at his own pace. He couldn't even pass gymnasium (HS) math class testing. A dunce, but much beloved by his parents who had complete trust that God knew what he or she was doing with the boy. In his adulthood he blossomed and look what happened. We would likely not be communicating in this way with his ground breaking discoverys about the nature (thus the operational reality) of the universe. Tom Edison, deafenned by the boxing of his ears in school by the teacher, because he day dreamed wonderfully imaginative dreams of doing things in the real world...not the dusty dull classroom, or the study table at home, was taken from school by his doting and concerned mother, and the boy set up, with mother's support, an experiment lab in the basement. Again, we'd be waving flags at each other from hilltops to talk had he not done the seminal work he did. I've heard similar strange parenting, very permissive parenting of this type, producing other geniuses. I've see what public school rated as slow learners, or learning disabled. children could do when their parents in desparation took them to school...and pretty much just let them play until the poison of their forced learning had worn off....and then, jump back greegor. You couldn't hold them back. But they did NOT progress according to any schedule but their own. Amazing kids. Well, now amazing adults. When a person is micro managed, they generally long VERY MUCH for the day they can manage the situation themselves. No, they die inside, and settle for either passivity and becoming drones to be exploited in the market and the armies. Or they become whining little passive ****ants that blame anyone but who they should for their miserable petty crime filled lives. Know any? I sure do. Not a one from the homeschooling and other families that would not use pain, fear, coercion, on their children. Is it possible the kid in this recording played a CON by asserting they had grades under control, and this spanking is because they were being DISHONEST? If pigs had wings they could fly, but don't look up. Aren't LIES and DISHONESTY really the biggest reasons for spanking? No. Lies and dishonesty show either a very young child that is simply modeling their parents interactions with them....every tell a kid a fairytale, greegor? Why shouldn't they think, in their literalist way (and they are that) that that is what talking with each other is supposed to contain....lots of stories and fooling each other. Or that the adult is so ****in' dangerous, like you, that the he or she better get damn good damn quick at a whole set of similar survival tactics. Lying is a pretty good one. We adults, under threat, tend to use it a lot. You do. And I've made it a project to track your lies. Perhaps Kane and his sock puppets should be spanked? I have no sock puppets, nor anyone shilling for me. I am quite alone. Does that embolden you to try and spank me? Either figuratively here, or literally in person? Hmmmm....Well, I've been so busy getting all my down trees bucked and split for winter I haven't been on the mat in about two months. I might be rusty enough for you to "spank" me, but I wouldn't put any money on a lazy jobless child torturing coward. One little slap and I have a hunch you'll sobbing and blaming CPS, the little girl, and the nasty ol' mean state of Iowa and it's missing FCRB offices. Deviousness, deceipt, lies... I'll let you on a secret. You, Doug, and others here that are long gone have left tracks all over the place at how devious, deceptive, and lying you really are. I let you slide along pretending to take you seriously when I know what you've been up to...literally. You are all a joke. Just as much as Neal was, and eventually you all will be shown to be. And I won't have to do it...you will, either by slips, or by requiring people to know about you and simply looking you up. You call someone a liar, and that tends to happen. They get very interesting in YOUR veracity. You start pretending you have some great revelation about their background, and you give license for them to take a peek at yours. That's a foolishness a couple of you will pay for, eventually, right here. You are nothing more than a mentally limited and likely disturbed cowardly liar. You're still out on the street by luck, nothing more. And I'll decide when and how to expose you. In the meantime, enjoy yourself. I'm enjoying this. And you are so easy to bait I'm almost embarrassed. If it weren't for the child you ****ed over, I'd just ignore you. Kane |
#77
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Greegor wrote: Chris, your obsessive reposting of this makes me wonder if you aren't deriving some perverse sexual jollies from it. Do you really think he listens everytime? My take on it is that Chris would like those spanking compulsives that come here listen to an episode of spanking from outside the event, instead from inside where they might be biased to hear it differently, since they are the perpetrators in the latter instance. But then, I don't know what Chris thinks precisely, but I can't find anything in his posting, even when I disagree with him adamently, that would suggest he's anykind of pervert whatsoever. Unless NOT wanting to cause children pain is some exotic new way to get off? 0:- If it turns out he is a pervert do you think he'd be interested in learning how to work out ways to manipulate a little girl or two into shower situations with him in attendence? I have a funny feeling you couldn't sell him that if he was an ax murderer, let alone the obiously kind and gentle, caring individual that he is. I love how the spanking compulsives, given to violence to man or women, wants to portray someone that can bebate them into frustrated teeth knashing decide he must secretly be a monster. It just goes to their projections. Deep down they know who the monsters are here. That they are unwilling to face. We've even had one, that laid out his experience, going from being a spanking parent, recognizing the futility of the practice, and most deliberatly and courageously going about learning how to parent with pain, fear, humiliation for the children he loves. Nothing you will ever come anywhere near, will yah, greegor? Got to be in control no matter what. Happy December to yah. My the snow fly up yer nose, The raindeer stomp yer toes, and a christmas ball portray your fall, when the SO cuts your hose. R R R R R R R R .....HO HO HO HO...Merry Big Bang. And thank goodness there was a sweatheart like Jesus to tell you twits to stop your cruelty to children. Too bad you don't listen. Yet. Kane |
#78
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Those who have traumatic issues about corporal punishment in childhood
should use discretion. This sound file can be extremely upsetting. So why would a person with "traumatic issues about corporal punishment in childhood" possibly be on a newsgroup with this name? Why intentionally read about something if it traumatizes you? {Hamilton} |
#79
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Hamilton1794 wrote: For it to be of practical use to parents considering continuing spanking or taking it up with their newborns, it has to be at least as explicit as a traffic speed control sign. Easy to read, understand, and apply to human children. Just as 55 MPH is to the driver who drives the car down the road under varying conditions If you want the process of bringing up children to have simple, easy-to-understand rules that are like road speed limits, you're going to be forever frustrated as a parent. I didn't say that I wanted that or expected it for "bringing up children," simply for engaging in parenting methods that have well known risks attached. It's very hard, for instance, to leave a bruise or break a bone by redirecting a child's behaviors verbally. Not so hard to do with swats, smacks, paddlin's, and pops. Child-rearing isn't an exact science, One of the most clever ways to avoid discussing what someone has postulated is to move the discussion of in another direction....especially if you are good at using something that seems closely related. You'll notice I wasn't deviating from the issue of using corporal punishment. I addressed no other issues, of which there are many, on child rearing. In many of those others I do not ask for roads signs that show absolute boundaries. I do in spanking for a very sensible reason: the injuries to children that have occurred as a result of CP, especially when it has gotten out of hand and the children have been taken by state and the parent in in jail for criminal assault. I'd rather avoid that. It's bad for kids and parents. it demands the ability to adjust methods of behavior modification to different children under different situations. Sure and the range is nearly infinite. I can sit around all day with just about any issue in parenting and dream up tactic after tactic. I tend though to go to what I have proven over the years to be not only the easiest AND most fun, but the most effective in my child learn SELF control, over seeking out OTHER control. Spanking may work for certain children in certain families under particular conditions, but that doesn't mean it should be applied to ALL children under ALL circumstances. "work" is the word to watch out for. It's an ill defined term. What you may think of as it "works" I might think of as having set the child on a path of control battles with you appearing to win but they just going to grow into a teen...and you know what happens then. 0:- Those are decisions for individual parents to make for their own children, just as they make other types of child-rearing decisions, hopefully with success and to the best of their ability. Yes, they are. Wrapped up in, possibly without your conscious awareness, is the insinuation that someone else is going to tell them how to parent. I'm all for people making their own choices, and taking the consequences of finding opposing ideas offered in places such as this. No one was forced to by Benjamen Spock's baby book. Nor to follow it. You are not forced to follow any non-punishment parenting tips I might offer. But you might consider giving them and the supporting arguments I make without assume I'm trying to force you. Or did you inheret a tendency to enter into control battles and power struggles somewhere, sometime, from someone? Even posted speed limits don't always apply, if road conditions (ice, snow, fog, etc.) make driving at the posted speed hazardous. Well, I would presume, as a motorist would, that should a speed limit, or spanking limit would be modified by conditions neither would accelerate and to hard turns. The problem is I can find a posted limit for one, and I'm asking for a posted limit for the other, from those that perport to be the experts in what's right for their child. I want to be such an expert. Who knows, I might want to spank my kids one day. 'Course now in their forties they might think me a bit weird, but hey, if it's so good why wouldn't it still work to teach them things. If my daughter shows up again asking me about an ethical business decision she made that she now is questioning her actions about, first I'll turn her over my knee for her "mistake" then I'll sit her by me, dry her tears and tell her "never do that again young lady if you know what's good for you." I'm sure she'll learn a lot, and start shopping for the better prices care homes. To think that applying child-rearing strategies, including discipline, is going to be like following a few simple, easy-to-understand rules, that strikes me as a naive and highly facile approach. It strikes me that you are thinking yourself too too clever to have expanded the argument to all parenting issues, and child-rearing strategies, when I spoke to one, and one only. I'll give you an example of another though, that I want clear guidelines about. Diet. I do not want to by guess and by god on my child's diet. And by golly there are some very clear guidelines. Do not feed a small baby chunks of apple with the skin on. Do you know why? I also know in health matters that certain things I might Rx a child with certain other thinks I cannot or risk terrible harm . I also don't put my 5 year old in 8th grade. In fact not even in second, unless I have an outright proven genius, and even then I'd be thinking boundaries...very carefully. We use clear boundaries, and we consult with others to establish them, teachers, doctors, child psychologists, but for some reason this area of whalin' on a kids body and calling it a semi polite trick name, "spanking," doesn't want to lend itself to the same kind of considered reasoning and care in choice making. Now why IS that I wonder. What is so sacred about spanking that the parent would go into all these other areas seeking clearer guidelines but scream their heads off like spastic leaping arm waving monkeys when it comes to spanking? Or they sulk and run. Hmmmm? Hmmmm? This inquiring mind wants to know. When you wish to talk about this one issue, and admit there are plenty of clear boundaries in other areas of child rearing that are more than overdue in spanking, maybe the debate will take on a more wholesome feeling. As it is I always feel icky not pasting a spanker in the head, hard, for what they are doing to children. But then I'm a peaceable sort. Thanks for working on this problem with me. {Hamilton} (Casio) Kane |
#80
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Darryl:
The emotional appeal as propaganda? Manipulative game. It could also be said to be a form of Demagoguery. Chris and Kane are of the mind to impose their beliefs against all forms of spanking onto everybody. Their position is particularly weak and so they use desperate tactics. Spanking is legal in all 50 states and a large Federal court district is now under a ruling which says that spanking is NOT the business of Child Protection agencies. Spanking is NOT legally Child Abuse. Hamilton: Part of the agenda for the anti spanking zealots is to remove all options for a parent to spank. There are even a growing number of people who do not believe in spanking themselves, yet object to the anti-spanking zealotry being IMPOSED. Kane is a stooge for Child Protection agencies, a loyalist so staunch that he jerks his knee to justify every abuse done by government, no matter how big the stench. He actually idolizes Tail Gunner Joe McCarthy, the a-hole famous for the 50's communist witch hunts. He's a sicko indeed. It seems like Don worked in or with Child Protection agencies, found out how truly corrupt they really are, but because he wrapped his EGO around his identity and connection he FEVERISHLY works as a sort of free lance PR man, thinking that his gratuitous SWEARING in newsgroups wins over hearts and minds. Like many CPS caseworkers, Don is against ALL forms of spanking and would like to IMPOSE belief onto parents even though spanking is legal in all 50 states. His eagerness to impose his beliefs onto others makes me think he might have actually been a caseworker, with their raw, unchecked POWER, and now he has none and so he pathetically tries to bully people. He also claims to have education in psychology. Can't you tell, with his smooth style and winning ways?? (sic) |
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