Good Newsweek article

Denise Anderson wrote:

"Irrational Number" wrote in message
...


Yep, it's all about choices. My stepmother-in-law
is a dingbat, but she has a great phrase: Being
Supermom is also about being yourself. I think the
woman who spent 3 hours with her kid before work,
then 3 hours after work was insane. Where's her
husband???

I've lived that life. Up until last year I worked full time. I saw my kids
for a few hours a day. My husband's military. He doesn't have set hours
and he's often gone for half the year. It's not fair to assume people
always have spouses who *can* help them out, but don't.

I understand this totally! I was referring in particular
to the article that seemed to imply that all husbands
were not capable of taking care of the children. That
one woman in particular was proud that she put in
those 3 hours before and 3 hours after; the article
implied that she didn't _need_ her husband to do
anything because _she_ would do it all.

-- Anita --

"Melania" wrote in message
oups.com...
snip

The problem here, though I do not disagree with you, is all this
stuff comes
at a cost, and I am not just atlking abotu the dollars and cents.
Where
there is universal healthcare, often the standards of care are lower,
or
really more basic in nature, and the wait times for procedures is
very,
very long. USA has a history of individualist accomplishment. Our
capitalist
economy is the core of our system.

I would argue that in Canada our standards of care are excellent, and
that wait times are usually only long when procedures are not urgently
needed (I'm sure others will disagree vehemently, I'm speaking only
from experience).

I am not even speaking from my own experience but that of a cubicle
neighbor!


Unnecessary procedures and interventions might be
less common. I get twitchy whenever capitalist economy and healthcare
are mentioned in the same breath. The last thing I want is a doctor
seeing a tally of billable services every time s/he looks at me.


You and me, baby. I did not say I *liked* the status quo, just that I see
the changes toward what Sue was talking abotu as a Long Way Off.


And out government is inept. It is so far
to go from where we are. It is difficult to imagine in any functional
way in
this country. I hear people today complaining about paying taxes for
education when *they* don't have kids in school, or for roads when
*they*
use public transportation. As if taxes were a fee for service type
arrangement.

As I said, you need to wait until you have a child to really know
and
understand what all of these issues really are. Right now, it's
easy to
say
that you won't do all those things, and you may not, but I am
betting my
money that you will feel the same pressures as many moms do right
now.



I am the mother of 2. I have read the articles about all this WOH /
SAHM
competition and whatnot. I have gotten pressure from the grandp's to
potty
train this way or feed that way. I have had my sister flip an
emotional lid
for not wanting to put my 2 little kids in the same room with her 3
little
kids during a sleepover. (Call my crazy, but I know my kids won't
sleep in
the same room with 3 other kids. Her kids are used to sleeping
together;
mine aren't. I think she thought I was making some judgement on her.
I just
thought we would all have a much better time if we got some sleep.)
It just
washes over me.

It's not that one doesn't feel the pressure. It's just that keeping
perspective and critically assessing claims made by others, as well as
drawing on what was really positive in your own childhood (both just
enjoyable and also what set you up well in life), this is what's going
to help you deal firmly with that pressure, instead of doing yourself
in trying to conform and compete.





Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)


I think the idea I am trying to say is, if the pressure exists, you
can
choose how you respond. The government is not going to change how it
handles
childcare, healthcare or any of those things any time soon. So, will
the
pressure drive you (me, us) or will we be water and live the way is
right
for us and our families?

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Ilse Witch" wrote in message
In addition, moms need to realize that they are not the only parent and
force their husbands to get actively involved in raising the kids and
running the household. As long as statistics show that most full-time
working moms still do more than 50% of the house work, even when their
husbands do not work, we are nowhere *near* a real solution.


The father in this article could very well help out 90%, but that wasn't the
point of the article. It was the pressures that women put on themselves. My
husband helps out a lot and is very helpful, but I still feel the pressure
of having perfect kids and the pressures from other women and society. I
don't think men feel the same pressures as we do. But, my husband has
reported to just yesterday that men talk about children and how they are
suceeding and he felt a twinge of not meeting the expectations of the other
fathers.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

Melania wrote:

I don't know if I'm in a huge minority here, but I look at my own
mother and MIL, and basically think, "yep, they did exactly the right
thing, that's just precisely what I want to do." Which in Mom's case
was to stay home till we were in full time school, then finish her
education degree, and then become a primary school teacher, and in
MIL's case was to go back to work part-time as a physiotherapist once
her kids were in school, and full time once they were in high school
(and now she's part time again).

Nope, I'm right there with you - and I've got my mom, grandma, and
great-grandma to look to as examples. Great-grandma took up painting
late in life, and was actually very good! Grandma worked with her
husband for years and years, sat on every board in the known universe,
and was generally the consummate business woman - but didn't start any
of it until after her kids were grown (she did teach music at their
school when my mom and her sibs were growing up). Mom opened a bridal
consulting business when my youngest sib was in high school, she then
opened a bridal shop, and finally a ballroom where they do weddings and
events. She's wildly successful.

I plan to have a fabulous career, but I can do that well into my 80s.
The window for having a family is decidedly smaller. Hence, I'm doing
the family thing first...

And working for my husband. That can be interesting.

Amy

On Wed, 16 Feb 2005 15:28:03 -0600, toto
scribbled:

On 16 Feb 2005 10:37:24 -0800, "
wrote:

Women could take a page out of their play book, don't you think?

No.

Men should be given family leave when they have babies too.
There is no reason to *suck it up* when society should be supporting
families as many European societies do.

Hah! I couldn't have said it better :-)

Nan

Melania wrote:
snip

The problem here, though I do not disagree with you, is all this
stuff comes
at a cost, and I am not just atlking abotu the dollars and cents.
Where
there is universal healthcare, often the standards of care are
lower,
or
really more basic in nature, and the wait times for procedures is
very,
very long. USA has a history of individualist accomplishment. Our
capitalist
economy is the core of our system.

I would argue that in Canada our standards of care are excellent, and
that wait times are usually only long when procedures are not
urgently
needed (I'm sure others will disagree vehemently, I'm speaking only
from experience).

The US ranks pretty far down the list of countries on basic healthcare
indicators. Canada ranks higher on most of them.

Unnecessary procedures and interventions might be
less common. I get twitchy whenever capitalist economy and healthcare
are mentioned in the same breath. The last thing I want is a doctor
seeing a tally of billable services every time s/he looks at me.

USA has a history of individualist accomplishment. Our
capitalist
economy is the core of our system.

Which was also a key point in the article: we in the US have
privatization as a core value, and therefore we internalize everything
and take it upon ourselves to be the only one caring and juggling and
watching out for our kids. We don't demand more help, because we don't
expect it.

Our nation preaches "family values" but does nothing to support it and
help take at least *some* of the weight off our shoulders. We
internalize this message to mean "we must do it all, by ourselves,
without any help, and it better be done right, because look how messed
up society is today... I'm going to do a better job with my own kids."

And that's how we start feeling such pressure.

jen

wrote:
Melania wrote:

I don't know if I'm in a huge minority here, but I look at my own
mother and MIL, and basically think, "yep, they did exactly the
right
thing, that's just precisely what I want to do." Which in Mom's
case
was to stay home till we were in full time school, then finish her
education degree, and then become a primary school teacher, and in
MIL's case was to go back to work part-time as a physiotherapist
once
her kids were in school, and full time once they were in high
school
(and now she's part time again).

Nope, I'm right there with you - and I've got my mom, grandma, and
great-grandma to look to as examples. Great-grandma took up painting
late in life, and was actually very good! Grandma worked with her
husband for years and years, sat on every board in the known
universe,
and was generally the consummate business woman - but didn't start
any
of it until after her kids were grown (she did teach music at their
school when my mom and her sibs were growing up). Mom opened a
bridal
consulting business when my youngest sib was in high school, she then
opened a bridal shop, and finally a ballroom where they do weddings
and
events. She's wildly successful.

I plan to have a fabulous career, but I can do that well into my 80s.

I'm glad someone else thinks this way. I see no problem with getting
really career-focused later in life. Of course, we also have met our
deadline of having kids who can be finished high school and leaving
home by the time we're 50, so that helps.

The window for having a family is decidedly smaller. Hence, I'm
doing
the family thing first...

And working for my husband. That can be interesting.

Amy

Wow, that's uncanny. I'm in the same boat. Working for/with the husband
can certainly be interesting!!

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

Sue wrote:
wrote in message
What a pessimistic view of motherhood!!

It's definitely not a pessimestic view. It's spot on. You don't have
kids
yet, so you will naturally say that moms don't have to do all those
things.
They don't, but the pressure to do those things is there whether it
is said
or unsaid. But wait until you feel the pressure to have your child
reading
by age 2 and the go to the best schools and so on.

I snipped the rest of your post, but the basic gist of it was that
there's a lot of pressure to do what these moms are doing, and what I
criticized. I am sure that that's true. There probably IS a great
deal of pressure - but much of it is self-imposed.

My dad has a litmus test for whether or not you should give a crap
about someone's opinion. If I came home and said, "Daddy, the kids at
school hate me!!" he'd say, "Hey, do they pay your rent?" and even from
an early age, I knew that meant, "The opinion of the person/people who
provide for you (which at this time in my life is my huband and I) is
the opinion that matters. If the rest of the world doesn't like
whatever it is, f^&k 'em."

Honestly, Sue, don't you think it's not very grown up to capitulate to
that pressure, at the expense of your kids and your sanity? Don't you
think it might be more mature, in this case, to say, "F@#k 'em,"? What
are you teaching your kids? That if other people have unrealistic
expectations of you, you'd better just get in line because that's the
only way to survive? I choose my friends based on whether or not we
have similar values. Sure, I plan to catch good natured **** for
breastfeeding and whatnot, but at the end of the day, if it makes my
husband and I happy, the rest of the world can kiss my ass.

They don't pay my rent.

Amy

Unadulterated Me wrote:
wrote:

I have no sympathy for women who sign their 9 kids up for 4
different
after school activities each, and then complain that they spend all
their time in the car.

snip

My husband and I have already decided that our kids will be allowed
to
choose one activity per semester - one lesson, one club, one class
outside of school.

But if you had 9 kids and chose to abide by your one activity per
term
rule you'd still find your arse permanently in the car, it's simple
math.

Haha... Aren't you the one with 12 kids and one on the way?

Biology dictates that by the time the youngest was old enough for
activities, the oldest would be old enough to drive!

Amy