The English Language (not OT!)

Jennifer -- Thanks, you have made me feel much better. I think I am facing
two issues: normal failure to listen plus perhaps something not so normal
in the boys' expressive language.

Yes, C was being serious about the Mariners and had also misunderstood me.

I think I will try the lists. It won't work for everything (like not
picking up lunch since that isn't an "every day the same" thing) but at
least it should help get the beds made and the toilets flushed w/o nagging.

E's first grade teacher said he had no problem expressing himself in class,
but I don't particularly trust her and I have noticed that it is with asking
questions that he has most trouble and uses total gobbledegook. If she is
thinking of occasions where she asks *him* a question, he prob. did speak
fairly normally. It's as if (maybe it's true) he doesn't know how to
distinguish between "what, where, how, etc." AND he doesn't know how to
change the syntax to get a question, so he just gets embroiled. (made up
example but similar to what he asked his tae kwon do teacher in class on
Tuesday):

What can, where can, how do, if, when do, what you can get my new Arnis
belt?
=
When are you going to present me with my new belt?

Obviously there is a possibility of nerves, here, but he does the same with
me -- and with his classmates too, so I can't dismiss it as just authority
figures.

If I can get them to look me in the eyes, they *hear* better. But that is a
struggle in itself that adds a minute to any instruction and isn't always
practical. If I use their names, it doesn't work at all. This morning:

Me: Elliot, go to your room.
Hanna (raising her head from her latest book with a jolt): Go to my room?
Why? What did I do?

I will try asking "what do you think I just said?" but you know how hard it
is to pause and do that when rushing out the door -- will have to wait for
an idle conversation like the Mariner one.

I understand your points about multi-part orders and complex language
constructs ... but I am kinda sick of talking in words of one syllable and
without subordinate clauses or multi-parts .... I had thought they were old
enough. It's a question of time again, too -- if I have to list everything
one line at a time, we won't get to the bus.

Thanks for the thoughts on language exposure and processing ... I guess it
is true that reading extra-complex stuff could cause confusion ... and the
summertime thingy is pretty convincing too.

The main thing is I am trying to take a few steps back and not allow myself
to be whipped into a frenzy of fury at them by 8am every day. Try to enjoy
them just a little. It's hard though -- esp. when I see Holly being the
best tidier and the best at following instructions. Maybe her head is just
too empty not to obey. :-)

--Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)



"Jennifer in Maryland" wrote in message
...
"multimom4" wrote in message

Examples -- mostly from just TODAY:

Me: Oh look, the Mariners won 16-3 yesterday.
E: Whaaat? So they lost?
C: Yes, Elliot, they lost.

Me: Put your lunchbox in your backpack and go to the car.
C [immediately picks up lunchbox and goes out the back door, no
backpack]
E [picks up backpack and leaves without lunch]

g Sorry, but you just described my husband. If you embed a second
direction in a sentence, he'll follow one. He usually only remembers the
last thing you tell him. I don't mean to sound disrespectful toward him,
because he's a brilliant man--but he does have various processing
difficulties (none was ever diagnosed) and knows it. He operates a lot of
the time with tons of notes and other sorts of visual reminders.

I think it's *very* typical of children to fail to listen properly. I
try,
as much as I can, to write everything down. If you're interested, I'll
show
you a document I have hanging in the kitchen called "Step-by-Step Primer
for
Washing the Dishes." Before you think I'm crazy, please realize that my
point in making lists all over the house is to avoid having to ask things
over & over...and have the kids fail to hear them properly (intentionally
or
not, it's still annoying!). I even laminated a Print Shop document I made
called "Taking A Shower," and that's in the bathrooms. The kids can't
come
to me now and say they "forgot" to put up the towel or leave the curtain
out. :::rolls eyes:::

Also, have you figured out what difference it makes to change your
phrasing
in a very conscious way? I think with many children who are absorbed in
their minds or who knows what, it's beneficial to try everything you can
to
shake up what they expect to hear from you. What happens if you genuinely
speak to them in nonsense words--are they more attentive? How about when
you get on their level? How about when you use their names first? Does
anything help more than anything else?

Regarding the Mariners convo, I'm curious what your E would say if you
asked
him, "Hon, what do you think I just said to you?" I'd be curious if he'd
repeat what you *actually* said (and he misperceived)--or what he thought
that you said. By the way, was C being funny (teasing C for mishearing
you)
or did he also think you'd said the Mariners lost?

Me: Elliot, time for tae kwon do. Get your tae kwon do gear on.
E [rushes enthusiastically to back door without changing]

Me: From now on, anyone who doesn't make their bed will get a
checkmark.
E: So we don't make our beds any more?

I have to laugh, I'm sorry. This is so completely typical that I could
write it word for word!! :-D I think kids this age are still playing
with
and learning the language. If you read what you said about the beds, it's
perfectly natural IMO to come up with the sort of response Elliot had.

Me: When the dogs have finished eating, please let them out.
E: But they haven't finished eating.

As Groucho Marx said, "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend.
Inside of a dog it's too dark to read." Isn't your son exploring the
language the same way? That's my own take, completely unlearned and only
off the cuff.

Me: You go back to school in September.
C: On September? In what day?
And so on, ad nauseam.

PLEASE don't laugh. I need someone to tell me if this is even anywhere
close to normal for 7 year olds -- esp. for boys whose
reading/comprehension
level is three grades above their age.

I can't possibly say it's normal in a professional sense, but as a mom, I
think what you describe is pretty darn typical. If the boys are reading
at
such a high level, they're taking in an enormous amount of information.
I'm
not surprised they're processing the words interchangeably at times.

What have the boys' earlier teachers said about their language skills?
Any
concern from that front?

And if not (or also) please tell me how to cure it -- I am close to
murder
here. So sick of correcting the same things and repeating myself and
having
things *not* get done right even when it's as simple as "please open the
mud
room door" or "please let me through" or "please put the batman car
away"
or

Cure...I *wish*. :-O As I mentioned earlier, I just try to make as many
step-by-step lists for daily activities as I can, and then I don't have to
bring it all up every day. It was John Rosemond who gave me that idea;
he's
a parenting author who raised two children. He had a lot of chores for
his
kids to do, and he typed out this long "how to" notebook with everything
in
it (how to vacuum, how to mop) and then let the kids at it. I find having
my expectations in print does take the onus off me to nag, and the kids
are
getting good at reading lists! :-)

PS My girlfriend says it's the end-of-summer blues -- they are bored of
my
voice and I am sick of them tuning me out all day long. Could she be
right?

Absolutely! Things that wouldn't bug you months ago are enough to set you
off now, I bet, and the kids hear this droning in the background that just
happens to be Mom.

I am starting to worry about whether they can *handle* second grade (not
excel in, just handle).

I think they are going to love the challenge & just trying something new.

Jennifer

Thanks. Esp. for the points about negatives and using "you". I'll try.

--Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

"KimAK" wrote in message
...
My nearly 14 year old girls STILL go into this mode right before school
starts every year. I think there is ALOT of truth in your friend's theory
that kids zone out at summer's end.

I have to be very specific in my phrasing or mine just don't hear me at
all.
If I announce "I'm leaving for the store in 15 minutes. Anyone who wants
to
go has to be ready by then", what happens is 15 minutes later I grab keys
and they're running around "Okay, we're coming. We just have to put on
our
shoes, put our hair up, etc...." I've had to change it to, "Get your
shoes
on. I'm leaving NOW!" 15 minutes later, they're usually ready.

"Me: From now on, anyone who doesn't make their bed will get a checkmark.
E: So we don't make our beds any more?"
This and the bit about the Mariners' win really struck me. We had the
same
problems at that age. Something about using a negative (doesn't) seemed
to
confuse the message. Also, using plurals instead of saying 'you' seemed
to
make them less inclined to listen. So I'd try something like " 'You'
(eye
contact with both of them) make your bed or 'you' will get a checkmark"
It
didn't always work, but it did seem to help more often than not.

I'm not sure this was helpful, but it was typed with empathy. I'm ready
for
school to start!
Cheers,
Kim
Chelsea and Courtney (12/27/90)

My dh and I refer to it as the "summer moths". The girls' thought
processes
are alot like moths flying.....just meandering, no straight lines, no
clear
destinations, and often they bash into things.

They never had twinspeak, but I guess I need to push the school to monitor E
more closely. C gets services for another 6 months before he is reevaluated
for another 3-yr stint.

Time, time, time. Maybe with H2 in preschool more I can make the time to
get in the faces of the speech-lang. team and be more assertive. Last time
I tried, they were not very helpful ...

--Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

"Gina" wrote in message
news:vmbVc.1241$kz6.478@fed1read02...
I was amused by this posting... I'm sorry to admit. But then it hit me...
uh oh... I have three babies now... what if this is ME in a couple years?
So, I asked my SIL, who is a speech pathologist, what she thought.

FWIW, here is her response:

----
You have probably heard the phrase "twin speak", in which it seems as if
twins/multiples form their own languages that only they can understand.
This
does happen, I would venture to say it's a developmental form of english,
but since their siblings often know what they mean they don't continue
developing into "adult language". Speech therapy will help this.

As for your example below, it sounds like these boys need to continue
language therapy. Also their mother should try to simplify her directions
to
them; ie: one directive at a time, so as to not get so frustrated with
them.
They are below age level in their understanding of language and obviously
would benefit from further therapy. Schools should pick up on this, if
not,
parents need to advocate for services for their children. It is available
and FREE to them.
-----

I hope that maybe this helps you a little. I feel fortunate to have her
in
our family, since I will most likely need a lot of questions answered when
MY kiddos start to speak.

Gina

"multimom4" wrote in message
news:QtWUc.43843$TI1.29931@attbi_s52...
I need help. In their early years my kids had speech therapy. C still
has
intervention thru school (nowadays it's more emotive -- to help him
understand things like how people react to what you say and how they can
use
language to manipulate you). BUT although Hanna is perfectly normal in
her
language use, the boys ... OMG.

Examples -- mostly from just TODAY:

Me: Oh look, the Mariners won 16-3 yesterday.
E: Whaaat? So they lost?
C: Yes, Elliot, they lost.

Me: Put your lunchbox in your backpack and go to the car.
C [immediately picks up lunchbox and goes out the back door, no
backpack]
E [picks up backpack and leaves without lunch]

Me: Elliot, time for tae kwon do. Get your tae kwon do gear on.
E [rushes enthusiastically to back door without changing]

Me: From now on, anyone who doesn't make their bed will get a
checkmark.
E: So we don't make our beds any more?

Me: It's time to go.
E: It doesn't care, I still want to play outside.

Me: When the dogs have finished eating, please let them out.
E: But they haven't finished eating.

Me: You go back to school in September.
C: On September? In what day?

And so on, ad nauseam.

PLEASE don't laugh. I need someone to tell me if this is even anywhere
close to normal for 7 year olds -- esp. for boys whose
reading/comprehension
level is three grades above their age.

And if not (or also) please tell me how to cure it -- I am close to
murder
here. So sick of correcting the same things and repeating myself and
having
things *not* get done right even when it's as simple as "please open the
mud
room door" or "please let me through" or "please put the batman car
away"
or
.................................................. ..

PS My girlfriend says it's the end-of-summer blues -- they are bored of
my
voice and I am sick of them tuning me out all day long. Could she be
right?
I am starting to worry about whether they can *handle* second grade (not
excel in, just handle).

-- Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

"Chotii" wrote in message
news
What I've had to do with Victoria (5), when she asks what I term a
'stupid'
question (By this I mean in the context of this sort of conversation

"Victoria, get undressed and put your clothes in the laundry bin."
"What laundry bin?"
"The one in the hall."
"What hall?"

...etc. This is when I stop her and say "Victoria, what do you think?"

Invariably, she *knows* the answer. I have no idea why she does the
questioning thing. It drives me nutso.

My girlfriend has one who does this ... she thinks it's an attempt to make
conversation, or have her word, esp. if she is last after the other triplets
have already jumped in and spoken on a subject. She wants to say something,
but can't think of anything sensible, so she just says any old thing.

But in her case, J does this only sometimes, ... and in your case Victoria
is only (just) 5. Unfortunately, my boys will be 8 in about 8 weeks .....
:-(

Still, I guess I need to be more patient in enquiring to find out whether E
in particular really does get it ...

--Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

"multimom4" wrote in message
news:a9zVc.288408$a24.5481@attbi_s03...

I think I will try the lists. It won't work for everything (like not
picking up lunch since that isn't an "every day the same" thing) but at
least it should help get the beds made and the toilets flushed w/o
nagging.

Janet, Bryan (age 10) still has problems remembering to flush the toilet.
:-O It's one of those things...every night when I go upstairs to check on
the kids & put out clothes for Katie, I automatically check & flush the
toilet, lol! :-D What can you do?? In Bryan's case, the issue is
compounded by the fact that he often gets up in the middle of the night & is
probably too out of it to remember to flush; either way, I'm not going to
come down on him for that. Once Emily forgot to flush the toilet before we
went out of town for a week...enough said, right? shudder

I found that my kids love lists. Now, it might be an expedient way to get
through life in this household, IYSWIM--Mom is always making lists, might as
well take to them! Still, if it helps them learn to be organized, I think
that's great. Tim, the kids, my mom, cousin & I all went out to dinner
tonight. Emily said, "Mom, remember you were going to make a list?" I
answered, "Emily, I'm always making lists. Could you be more specific?"
and my mom started cracking up. She's familiar with my peculiarities
insofar as listmaking. ;-)

Oh, this will make you feel better, perhaps (in a Schadenfreude sort of
way): the list Emi was referring to was a "catch them being good" sort of
list I'd planned to keep. When I got home from Germany last month, the kids
were just ON each other to the point of me wanting to scream and lock them
in their rooms. Then one of the kids did something really kind for the
other, my ears perked up, and I talked about how I'd make the list, etc.

I went to the computer to devise this beautiful poster and started
reconsidering. All of a sudden my mind flashed forward to the kids seeing
their names on the "being good/considerate/kind" list. "Why's my name on it
less than his? Why didn't I get on there for giving such-and-such to
so-and-so? She wasn't being kind on her own because I asked her to do it!"
etc. ad nauseum.

I explained my reasoning to Emily tonight, why I decided against making the
list, and she said, "That sounds like a good idea, Mom." ROFL!!! I could
just knock their little heads together sometimes, and then they go and act
all grown-up. :-)

Tonight they couldn't be near each other without poking and prodding, yet an
hour later the three of them are cuddled up together working on a project.
*sigh* I don't know why I can't get used to the ups and downs. Oh, that's
right, we were talking about you, lol. I'm about to head out of town for a
week, so I'm enjoying my computer time before I'm offline!!

If I can get them to look me in the eyes, they *hear* better. But that is
a
struggle in itself that adds a minute to any instruction and isn't always
practical.

Yup. If I have time and patience, I can get down on their level and be very
clear. That just isn't always possible, as you note. I have a difficult
time distinguishing between blatant inattentiveness and actual failure to
hear what I said. Sometimes a kid is completely involved in a book, and as
a reader, I know that I can be in another world at those times; I don't
expect any of them to perk up the moment I make a peep. OTOH, if a kid is
just sitting there and hasn't listened to me, I'm likely to make a bigger
deal out of it.

Sometimes if I call them and they don't come, I let it go for several
minutes. Then I'll go upstairs and tell them, it's too bad you weren't
paying attention. I was trying to talk to you, and now we can't do what I'd
planned. Truly, I'm mean. ;-D~

If I use their names, it doesn't work at all. This morning:

Me: Elliot, go to your room.
Hanna (raising her head from her latest book with a jolt): Go to my room?
Why? What did I do?

ROFL!! That's the reading thing, right? I always got the last part of
sentences in those instances, too. :-) You don't want to yell and you
don't want to have to take the child off into a soundproof room just to get
him to be attentive. It's tricky.

I understand your points about multi-part orders and complex language
constructs ... but I am kinda sick of talking in words of one syllable and
without subordinate clauses or multi-parts .... I had thought they were
old
enough. It's a question of time again, too -- if I have to list
everything
one line at a time, we won't get to the bus.

I know...but sometimes it's a matter of asking complex questions 4x or
simple questions once. ;-) The first way, you get to be adult, but
repetitive and frustrated. The second way, you feel like an airhead, but
perhaps a peaceful one!

I find I can be much more complex with my older kids than I could even when
they were 8. Suddenly around 9+ they make these leaps of reason that are
really quite astonishing. They come up with perceptions sometimes that are
right on target, and that's a new ability. As long as your kids keep
reading & you follow your instincts on following up with any processing
disorder, I promise you that soon you'll be discussing philosophy together.
:-)

One thing that *really* helped me be less bored in my conversations with my
children was to have informal book chats. Nothing big, just where I would
read a book Bryan had just read, or vice versa, and we could sit down and
really hash it all out. It's sort of a way for us to feel close, and I love
when they get absorbed in my old children's books that I loved at their age.
At least it gives us something to talk about other than stuffed animals,
Pokemon, horses, and who gets to sit next to me.

The main thing is I am trying to take a few steps back and not allow
myself
to be whipped into a frenzy of fury at them by 8am every day. Try to
enjoy
them just a little. It's hard though -- esp. when I see Holly being the
best tidier and the best at following instructions. Maybe her head is
just
too empty not to obey. :-)

Good luck. :-) Katie, at age 6, *always* follows the rules. I think as
the kids get older they get much more involved in things they prefer to do,
plus there's probably some natural desire to rebel against being immediately
accessible to Mom and Dad.

I remember Janna going through a stage when she loved to drag her feet as
the whole family went out the front door. She made a point of being last.
Now Emily is starting to do the exact same thing!!! Is there some sort of
preteen book these kids read?!

Jennifer

Hi Janet,

First, let me ask you, did your sons have a lot of ear infections from
birth to 18 months of age and was their receptive language poor at that
time? If that is true, you might be looking at a central auditory processing
problem that is caused by chronic ear infections disallowing kids to pick up
language properly during that extremely important part of their language
development. Once it's lost, it's lost forever. CAPD can be a difficult
thing to work with, and you might want to consider taking the boys for
testing at an audiologist that is not part of the school system.

Second, much of what you're describing is typical of kids with slight
non-verbal learning disabilities. They just don't manufacture language in
the way other people do. I have a daughter who is 11, and she is very much
like your boys. She just doesn't get language. She has trouble following
simple plots on TV, never mind movies. She doesn't read because she can't
follow the plot. She doesn't see things sequentially. She misses most cause
and effect. My conversations with her are so much like you described below.
Recently she asked me, out of the blue, if her brain was bigger than her
head. Now, I'm one to deal with this stuff with humor, so I said to her "Oh
sure, can't you see it dripping out your ears?" but it DOES drive me nuts,
especially when she doesn't think.

One of the interesting things about multiples is if you have one that is
brighter than the others, the kids learn very quickly to rely on the bright
one to do their thinking for them. Separating them confounds them becasue
they don't have someone to parse directions for them, or to translate or to
respond to questions for them.

I've got a lot to say on this kind of communication, but it's probably not
all appropriate here.

Marjorie


"multimom4" wrote in message
news:QtWUc.43843$TI1.29931@attbi_s52...
I need help. In their early years my kids had speech therapy. C still
has
intervention thru school (nowadays it's more emotive -- to help him
understand things like how people react to what you say and how they can
use
language to manipulate you). BUT although Hanna is perfectly normal in
her
language use, the boys ... OMG.

Examples -- mostly from just TODAY:

Me: Oh look, the Mariners won 16-3 yesterday.
E: Whaaat? So they lost?
C: Yes, Elliot, they lost.

Me: Put your lunchbox in your backpack and go to the car.
C [immediately picks up lunchbox and goes out the back door, no backpack]
E [picks up backpack and leaves without lunch]

Me: Elliot, time for tae kwon do. Get your tae kwon do gear on.
E [rushes enthusiastically to back door without changing]

Me: From now on, anyone who doesn't make their bed will get a checkmark.
E: So we don't make our beds any more?

Me: It's time to go.
E: It doesn't care, I still want to play outside.

Me: When the dogs have finished eating, please let them out.
E: But they haven't finished eating.

Me: You go back to school in September.
C: On September? In what day?

And so on, ad nauseam.

PLEASE don't laugh. I need someone to tell me if this is even anywhere
close to normal for 7 year olds -- esp. for boys whose
reading/comprehension
level is three grades above their age.

And if not (or also) please tell me how to cure it -- I am close to murder
here. So sick of correcting the same things and repeating myself and
having
things *not* get done right even when it's as simple as "please open the
mud
room door" or "please let me through" or "please put the batman car away"
or
.................................................. ..

PS My girlfriend says it's the end-of-summer blues -- they are bored of
my
voice and I am sick of them tuning me out all day long. Could she be
right?
I am starting to worry about whether they can *handle* second grade (not
excel in, just handle).

-- Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

Me: Elliot, go to your room.
Hanna (raising her head from her latest book with a jolt): Go to my room?
Why? What did I do?

Ah, now *that* one my kids do. I've noticed myself saying to Peter, "Is your
name Emily?" a lot lately.

--Helen

Yes, I know, and despite my panic earlier in the week, with some thought I
am not really so worried about the "hearing" thing as I am pretty sure it's
tune-out and I guess I just need to find ways to be sure they hear me.

The expressive language skills are more of a concern -- I'd have to say that
E loses his way in 80% of the questions he tries to ask. If I had to guess,
I'd think the other 20% are probably simple things -- no sub. clauses, maybe
no WH words, but that on complicated questions with WH it is close to 100%.

Then there is his inability to use the correct baseball terms despite
watching it on tv with explanations and speech coaching from me for 4 months
*and* a week of full-day baseball camp.
Things like that don't stick (kinda like "It doesn't care") -- *any* time
someone comes in to score it's a "home run" to him. And forget "single",
"double" ..... the umpire is an empire, the Mariners were the Mainers for
weeks, etc etc

--Janet
Elliot, Hanna, Connor (10/21/96)
and Holly (4/4/01)

"H Schinske" wrote in message
...
Me: Elliot, go to your room.
Hanna (raising her head from her latest book with a jolt): Go to my
room?
Why? What did I do?

Ah, now *that* one my kids do. I've noticed myself saying to Peter, "Is
your
name Emily?" a lot lately.

--Helen