Things to think of before you get married again..

"Fred" wrote in message
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Moon Shyne wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that
people take responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not
have sex when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem
to have (systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their
actions and decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility.
I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a
responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the
effect that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the
other. Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as
"her body, her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own
responsibilities. I know this because those men conspicuously evade
my statement, "his semen, his choice, his responsibility."

What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility.

Good luck, Fred - when I tried to point out that men were responsible
for using their own birth control methods rather than putting that
responsibility on women, it didn't get anywhere, either.

It's all about money anyway. They want all the fun, they just don't
want to have to pay for the consequences. Once the semen hits the egg,
they're all too willing to let the woman take all the responsibility,
be it moral, legal, or financial. And then we've got this looneytunes
who claims that these guys aren't letting women take responsibility.
Heck, these guys want women to take *all* the responsibility, which
will leave them more money to buy that new truck/ATV/bass boat, and
moral accountability be damned.

Pathetic.

You could not BE more wrong. Are you lying or just that prejudiced?
Phil #3

"teachrmama" wrote in message
...

"Fred" wrote in message
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Gini wrote:
"teachrmama" wrote
............................
And you, Fred, are totally *dismissing* WOMEN'S responsibilities!
I am a woman, and I find it demeaning that you keep harping on what
MEN should do, but not a hint about how WOMEN should handle their
responibilities in the same situation. Everything a woman does
after the sex act is a consequence of where that mean old man left
his semen. Nonsense! Or maybe I'm just reading you wrong--why
don't you clearly delineate what the woman's responsibilities are
after the consequence of pregnancy becomes an issue.
==
A ride to the CSE office? (Because she's *owed* it, of course.)


I guess that the matter is best explained by reference to the theme
of the game Fable: "For every choice, a consequence."

So he chooses to spread his semen hither and yon, and she chooses to
let him spread it in her. And let's say that the consequence is
pregnancy. Now there are other choices to be made, in this case by
her, and from those choices will spring consequences in turn.

Had there been no pregnancy, the consequences resulting therefrom
would not have occurred, because the choices resulting therefrom
would not have had to be made. And had he not spread his semen
around, or had she chosen not to let him spread his semen in her,
there would have been no pregnancy.

Yes, she contributed to that pregnancy. But so did he, and attempts
to deny that fact with sanctimonious bleatings to the effect of "her
body, her choice, her responsibility" are simply not valid.

Yes, he does not have input into certain downstream
choices/consequences. That's unfortunate, but it does not absolve him
from taking at least some responsibility for the consequences of his
behavior in spreading his semen hither and yon, including downstream
consequences not of his choosing, for at the end of the day it's "his
semen, his choice, his responsibility."

Abortion? Without an unwanted pregnancy, there is no abortion. And
without his semen, there is no unwanted pregnancy. "His semen, his
choice, his responsibility."

Child support? Without a pregnancy, there is no child to support. And
without his semen, there is no pregnancy. "His semen, his choice, his
responsibility."

What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people
take responsibility?

PLEASE pay better attention, Fred! You have never heard me deny the
responsibility of either parent--never! What I AM saying is that
WOMEN also need to be held responsible! BOTH parties are resposible,
and BOTH should have both RIGHTS and RESPONSIBILITIES!

I think where you're losing him is when you advocate women having
similar responsibility or men having similar rights.
Phil #3


Both mother and father should have the wonderful joy of raising the
child, and both mother and father should pay for it--as co-parents,
not as one parent and one walking ATM. The woman had sex just as
surely as the man did. What I am tired of is having the blessibng of
raising the child treated as HER "consequence" and the responsibility
of paying for it treated as HIS "consequence." Her egg-her
resposibility, his semen-his responsibility---no problem with me.

So please, Fred, tell me what you see as the woman's responsibility
when an unexpected pregnancy occurs. Tell me if you think she is
equally responsibile in all the same ways as a man is--or if you go
along with the woman gets the child and man pays for it system now in
place.

Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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teachrmama wrote:

Second question: If it is reasonable for a man to know *all* the
potential consequences of his actions, is it any less reasonable
for women to also know, which negates abortion on demand as a
reasonable response to accidental pregnancy?
Your bigotry is getting in the way again.

Abortion *is* one of the potential consequences.
No it isn't!
Sure it is! Your bigotry is distorting your understanding of the
nature of consequences.

Pregnancy can be a consequence of having sex.
And abortion can be a consequence of pregnancy. Doesn't have to be,
but it can be. It's one a of a range of possible consequences of
pregnancy, others of which are adoption and carrying to term. All
are consequences.

Another choice is legal abandonment. All the post-conception choices
are available to women while none are available to men so why are
choices he is not allowed to make a consequence to the man?
Because he is responsible for where his semen ends up.

You didn't even attempt to answer the question.

I did answer the question. You just don't want to recognize it, because
to do so would mean that you are prepared to accept responsibility for
your actions, and it is clear to me that, like the rest of your ilk, you
won't do that.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

Won't confront that statement, either. Hits too close to the truth, I
guess.

It's like this: without his semen, there's no conception, without
conception, there is no pregnancy, without pregnancy, there is no
abortion, or abandonment, or live birth, or whatever outcome you choose
to list.

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

And no matter how hard you and your colleagues try to evade that
responsibility, y'all can't do it.

Sex may cause a pregnancy. Until a pregnancy occurs, both are equal
in deciding 1) to abstain from sex; 2) use contraception; 3) or do
nothing, hoping no pregnancy will occur. After pregnancy, the man has
no choices except those given by the woman and in fact, he may not
even be aware a pregnancy occurred. She is not even legally required
to inform him.
He should have thought of that before the fact. He should have been
responsible before the fact, because he sure as hell is gonna have to
own up to his responsibilities after the fact.

But women do not need to be responsible because we have men onto which
to pin responsibility for her decisions?

Women have responsibilities, too. But I don't see women trying to evade
their responsibilities, although there is one nutcase around here who
thinks they are. I do, however, see lots of men trying to do so.

And even if someone else was not as responsible as she might have been,
that does not serve to negate his responsibility in the matter.

Why do you feel women need the extra options that you seem to want to
forbid men?

What do you mean by "extra options"?

[this should be good ... ]

You also raise another interesting problem: what if the mother doesn't
tell him about the pregnancy, does he STILL have responsibilities and
what are they?

It's still his semen, right? I mean, just because he doesn't know that
he did something doesn't mean that he didn't do it. So yeah, he still
has a degree of moral accountability, and if the child is alive, he
definitely has legal accountability.

What if she does as some do, and keep it a secret for a decade or so.
What are his responsibilities then?

See above.

Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Gini wrote:
"Fred" wrote
....................
What, I want to know, is so damned bad about suggesting that people
take responsibility?
==
Not at all--In fact we agree. She had the responsibility to not have
sex when she was ovulating
and had the responsibility to know when she is ovulating and the
responsibility to tell him when
she was ovulating. Apparently, she failed to do so. What we seem to
have (systemically, in our society)
is a failure to compel women to accept responsibility for their
actions and decisions and we them condemn
men for not anticipating her lack of responsibility.
I don't think that it is an either/or situation. Both parties bear a
responsibility. What I object to are the representations to the effect
that one party is solely responsible to the exclusion of the other.
Think about it: some men use sanctimonious statements such as "her
body, her choice, her responsibility" to evade their own
responsibilities. I know this because those men conspicuously evade my
statement, "his semen, his choice, his responsibility."

Failing to grasp that HER choice, whatever is may be, overrides his
choice and with it goes the sole responsibility for that choice.
The ONE making the decisions should accept the consequences of their
decision.

Those who contributed to the condition are both accountable.

With pregnancy, men should be held equally liable to that of
the mother, which means they should have the option of raising the child
as they see fit every bit as much as the other but when the parents are
not involved in an intact relationship, BOTH parents should be equal in
custody, support (financial, emotional, spiritual and all others) and
every other facet of the child's life unless there is a valid and just
reason not to allow it.

That "valid and just" phrase speaks to equity, which is fine with me.
Not equality; equity.

On the other hand, as long as women have the option to just walk away
from a living, breathing child, denying men the same right in the same
period is sexist and unequal treatment for similarly situated people. As
long as women have the option to decide whether to become parents at
all, men should have the same legal right during the same period.

And there it is! The man seeks to evade responsibility for his actions.

That's what it's always about.

What I'm trying to discuss is taking responsibility. What most are
trying to discuss is evading their own responsibility. And the
responsibility that most seem to be wanting to evade is financial
responsibility.

Don't forget that there is no law that says child $upport ...

And money. It's definitely always about money.

I fail to see how there could even BE children that are not wanted.
[...]
I can think of only two reasons: family pressure or money.

You forgot religious pressures. That's a big one.

"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Phil wrote:
"Fred" wrote in message
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Andre Lieven wrote:
"Tracy" ) writes:
"Gini" wrote in message
news:v25Vg.2469$6S2.1287@trndny02...
wrote
.............................
Deary, a vasectomy is cheaper than a month of child support.
If you
don't want to breed, don't have sex with a fertile woman,
==
And how is he to know when she is fertile?
Isn't a vasectomy only cheaper than a month of child support if
child support is more than a vasecotmy? How much is a
vasectomy?
How much is a tubal ligation ?
Here's something interesting:

"The cost of vasectomy is typically 3 to 4 times less than the
cost of tubal ligation. Although prices vary, regionally,
vasectomy costs generally range from about two hundrend fifty to
one thousand dollars, while the cost of tubal ligation often begin
at about one thousand dollars and may go as high as twenty-five
hundred dollars. The cost difference is mainly due to the fact of
where each procedure is performed; an office procedure vs. a
hospital procedure."

http://womenshealth.about.com/cs/ste...zhisorhe_3.htm

But it's not really about cost, is it?

It's about taking responsibility.
Apparently, it's about applying responsibility to only men as noted
in your next statement.
Your bigotry is showing. But on we go ...

Equality is bigotry???

You aren't talking about equality. You are talking about inequality,
as in assigning responsibility to one in a matter where it is properly
assigned to both.

Men and women share responsibility for any pregnancy that occurs when
they agree to have sex. BOTH and equally, not just the man. You are
bending over backward to promote the idea that men are solely
responsible for any pregnancy while saying absolutely nothing about any
responsibility the woman may or may not have. Why is that?


And let's face it, he's responsible for where his semen ends up,
and in this day and age, I don't think it's reasonable for him to
say that he didn't know *all* of the potential consequences of his
actions. So here's a question:
Another question: If men are responsible for their semen, do women
have any responsibility for allowing it near their egg?
Sure. Everyone is responsible in their areas of responsibility.

What you can't do is to hang all responsibility on one of the sexes.

So when an accidental pregnancy occurs ...

What do you mean by "accidental pregnancy"?

Inintended.


... tell me again how it is the sole responsibility of the man ...

Never said it was. What I said, which you have quoted above, is that
"Everyone is responsible in their areas of responsibility." But I
guess your knee-jerk bigotry let you ignore that.

And now I'm a bigot because I advocate men and women equally sharing
responsibility for an agreed action that results in pregnancy? I believe
it is obvious where the bigotry resides.


as in "And let's face it, he's responsible for where his semen ends
up..."

Well, isn't he?

Equally with the woman who agreed to it, yes.
You have overlooked women's responsibility in this from the start. Why?


I eagerly await your answer to this question.

... as if the woman has no responsibility in the matter.

Oh, she has her responsibility in the matter, too. Never said she
didn't. (See above) But there are men out there who claim to have no
responsibility whatsoever, and that bothers me. They make
sanctimonious statements something like "her body, her choice, her
responsibility", when it's also "his semen, his choice, his
responsibility". But they are so blinded by bigotry and bitterness
that they have (conveniently?) forgotten that essential fact.

The fact is, she has several other "outs" that are denied him. That's
one part you conveniently forget. Another is that if she chooses to
allow birth, he still gets no choices, only she does but he is still
held unequally responsible. If she has total and sole choice, she must
also accept total and sole responsbility. If you want men to have equal
responsibility, allow them equal choices. It's really simple once the
bias is removed.



Abortion *is* one of the potential consequences.

...for the woman. How does this involve a man before pregnancy?

So this man gets to thinking about the potential consequences of
spreading his semen hither and yon, and he realizes that one of those
potential consequences might be an unwanted pregnancy, for which he
would be at least partially responsibility because, after all, it's
"his semen, his choice, his responsibility", and one of the potential
consequences of that unwanted pregnancy might be an abortion, for
which he would also be at least partly responsible, because if there
were no unwanted pregnancy in the first place, there would be no need
for an abortion in the second place.

You cannot rightly expect people to accept responsibility for choices
they are not allowed to make. The only righteous way to make this equal
is to ban abortion on demand and let the parents both share the
responsibility for any child that results in consential sex.
Men and women share responsibility for a pregnancy but since only one
has any choices beyond that, they also have the sole responsibility. The
simplest way to equalize it all is to ban abortion as birth control and
force parents to either share custody and expense equally or pay the
other if they choose not to be a parent.
As it is, women share responsibility for creating pregnancy. From that
point on, the women have all choice and the man *must* accept her
choice, whatever it is, as his responsibility.
You cannot force someone to do something then blame them for doing
exactly what you forced them to do.


Spread your semen hither and yon and you are responsible for the
consequences of your actions. Somebody else might share that
responsibility, but that does not negate your responsibility. It just
doesn't.

Nope, not for the pregnancy but when a woman has the choice to deny
becoming a parent whether through unilaterally decided abortion,
adoption or abandonment, his responsibility is removed by her demanding
sole choice in the outcome.


FYI, I am sterile by choice because there are so many idiots making
nonsense into law like making man solely responsible for pregnancy.

I think that it is sad that you have chosen sterilization out of fear,
rather than out of a sense of responsibility.

I call it responsible. It is a reaction to the asnine feministic laws of
the land. I won't play their game by their ever-changing rules.

I guess that it is a matter of being able to be as emotionally
irresponsible as possible without having to worry about the
consequences. Women as objects and that sort of thing. But do note
this: I knew a guy whose wife got pregnant *after* the vasectomy.
Turned out that he had more than one set of tubes. Uncommon, but it
does occur. You might want to keep that in mind ...

So from your point of view, if pregnancy occurs it's the man's fault and
if he takes steps to prevent pregnancy he's immature?
Phil #3

Let's get right to the nub of it:

Phil wrote:

Not *the* responsibility. *A* responsibility.

"Her body, her choice, her responsibility."

"His semen, his choice, his responsibility."

"For every choice, a consequence."

But not equal choices nor consequences including after childbirth when
both parents are, or should be, equal.

First of all, when it comes to reproduction, you are confusing equality
with sameness. Males and females have different sets of choices and
consequences because they are not biologically the same. When you can
bear children, then I will grant you the same set of choices regarding
reproduction as are available to women. Until then, you'll just have to
work with the choices and consequences available to men.

After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that is
the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to resolve.

"Fred" wrote
...........

After childbirth, there should be equity. In some jurisdictions, that is
the case; in others, it is not. That's an issue for legislatures to
resolve.
==
Now he admits he agrees. Sheesh! BTW Fred, where are the jurisdictions of
equity?

As before, let's get right to the nub of it:

Phil wrote:

When speaking of custody or child $upport, "responsibility" is the same
as money. Primarily, fathers have a "responsibility" for child $upport
but the mother does not have an equal "responsibility". As a matter of
course, fathers pay money to the mothers but mothers do not have to
spend it on the children as long as they are minimally cared for (using
the fact that nearly all custodial parents are mothers). IOW, she has
less "responsibility" to the same children while his sole
"responsibility" is $$$.

There you go again. To you, it's all about the money.

"responsibility ... : moral, legal, or mental accountability"

http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dicti...responsibility

Still, you have helped to make my point that, at the end of the day,
this is all about money. Not moral accountability. Not informed
consent. Not the welfare of the child. Money. And specifically evading
the payment of money when one is both morally and legally accountable
to do so.

Legally, yes. Morally, hell no.

So after all this, you do agree that it's all about the money, to the
point that you will evade your moral accountability for contributing to
the pregnancy, and even your moral accountability to the child who
carries your DNA.

That's disgusting.

Gini wrote:

BTW Fred, where are the jurisdictions of
equity?

Minnesota will implement its new equity-based law on January 1. I am
told by a co-worker whose child lives in Michigan that Michigan's child
support law is equity-based. There are others as well, but I don't keep
up on that sort of thing.

When it comes to support, the way you can tell is to see if the law in a
given jurisdiction takes the circumstances of both parents into account.
And for those for whom it's all about the money, I'm talking about more
than financial circumstances.

When it comes to custody, look for jurisdictions where the default is
joint custody.

"Fred" wrote in message
. net...
Phil wrote:

I think I'll base my decision on whether or not you acknowledge that
men are responsible for their semen.

We appear to disagree.

Then you assert that men are not responsible for their semen.

Nope but you have degraded yourself with the a reply that is typical of
one who has lost the debate, that being you cut all but one line and
address one sentence out of context; a strawman, and YOU LOSE. Thank
you. Now anyone reading will realize you are what you truly are.


I am not surprised.

You can proclaim about equality all you want, but at the end of the
day, there you are, denying your own responsibilities, which you would
not be doing if you really believed what you say.

If I *had* any responsibilities, you mean.
Since I have the right to vote, I consider it my responsibility to vote
for the candidate I think will do the best for all. Remove the ability
for me to vote and you also remove my responsibility to vote. You just
don't get it, do you?


BTW, "equality" and "sameness" are not synonymous.

Which has nothing to do with the discussion.


Have a nice day.

Too late. I already read what you said; kinda puts a damper on my
outlook to realize there are people in the world whose only thought is
to denigrate men.
Phil #3