Re: teaching good sleep habits (xpost)

[H Schinske]

wrote:

>My twin boys are 3.5 mos old, about 6 wks corrected. They are beginning to
>sleep 5 hrs at night *once* we get them to sleep, but getting them to sleep
>is a challenge. They both want to be held while falling asleep, until they
>are *completely* asleep.

This is normal, though of course difficult.

>Besides, they knew how to do it once, I think: they spent the
>first 5.5 wks of their life in the hospital and the nurses certainly didn't
>hold them all the time.

That's just it. They're making up for that now. They *need* time being held.
They're tiny babies and they need that contact. If necessary hire a teenager
(or even a preteen, since you'll be right there) to come in and help you hold
babies during the day. Get a sling and hold one or the other a lot during the
day when you are doing other things. It will help them relax and know that
someone is always there for them, which is just what they need.

>When/how can I start teaching them to relax themselves to sleep on their
>own?

This is something they do teach themselves and it can't always be rushed. They
will have opportunities to practice it, don't worry -- the times they go to
sleep in the stroller, in the car, all that -- they are relaxing and "letting
go" then. The only things the parent can really do about it are

--try cocking an ear when they cry out to see if they will go back to sleep on
their own
--try every so often putting them down when they are drowsy and relaxed
--have a certain routine (e.g., wrapping them in a particular blanket) that
goes with sleepytime

Sharp crying must always be responded to, but there is a certain kind of
going-to-sleep fussing that can be let alone (waahhhh, breathe, waaahhh,
breathe, getting slowly farther and farther apart and then ceasing).

--Helen

[Random Produxion]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 17:03:54 GMT, "Marie" > said:

>My twin boys are 3.5 mos old, about 6 wks corrected. They are beginning to
>sleep 5 hrs at night *once* we get them to sleep, but getting them to sleep
>is a challenge. They both want to be held while falling asleep, until they
>are *completely* asleep. If they are even just dozing when we put them down
>in their crib, they wake up howling and screaming and we have to begin the
>entire settling down/falling asleep process all over again. This is a pain
>as one of them, who tends towards colic, can sometimes take upwards of two
>hours to fall asleep :-( The other one averages about 30-40 mins for the
>process.
>
>I know they are too young for Ferber, but I would *really* like to teach
>them how to fall asleep in their cribs--it seems like an important
>lifeskill. Besides, they knew how to do it once, I think: they spent the
>first 5.5 wks of their life in the hospital and the nurses certainly didn't
>hold them all the time. Even when I was there during the day they would be
>out of their cots for feeding and then placed back in, even if they were
>awake.
>
>BTW, it's not just at night--during the day they insist on being held as
>well.
>
>When/how can I start teaching them to relax themselves to sleep on their
>own?

imo, and of course, other's mmv, 3.5 months old is a bit young to
expect them to completely relax themselves and sleep on their own -
especially if they just now are *beginning* to sleep 5 hours in a row.
>
>When/how do I start trying to introduce a "scheduled" nap-time into their
>lives?

at 3.5 months old i would think your babies are eating on a demand
basis. a rigid routine might be difficult to establish this young,
however, it certainly wouldn't hurt to do things such as (tummy-time,
songs, bathtime, etc.) at aprx. times each day (for example, bathtime
before bed). imo, that sort of loose routine is more for your sanity
though. if i recall, we were able to pretty much establish an every
three hours feeding then nap when my DD was about 5months old.

i know right now you feel like it's super important to get on a
schedule. i struggled with that (and still do sometimes) - and i agree
that being able to soothe themselves as well as amuse themselves, and
fall asleep solo is important, but i think you've got at least a few
months (most likely more) to work on it. :)

oh, and i'm not sure if you have a swing, but that might help with the
rocking to sleep problem.

congrats on your sons. :)

jenn
>
>TIA
>
>Marie
>Chris & Alex--born 04/23/03 (31 wks gestational)
>

[Marty Billingsley]

In article ers.com>,
Marie > wrote:
>My twin boys are 3.5 mos old, about 6 wks corrected. They are beginning to
>sleep 5 hrs at night *once* we get them to sleep, but getting them to sleep
>is a challenge. They both want to be held while falling asleep, until they
>are *completely* asleep. If they are even just dozing when we put them down
>in their crib, they wake up howling and screaming and we have to begin the
>entire settling down/falling asleep process all over again. This is a pain
>as one of them, who tends towards colic, can sometimes take upwards of two
>hours to fall asleep :-( The other one averages about 30-40 mins for the
>process.
>
>I know they are too young for Ferber, but I would *really* like to teach
>them how to fall asleep in their cribs--it seems like an important
>lifeskill. Besides, they knew how to do it once, I think: they spent the
>first 5.5 wks of their life in the hospital and the nurses certainly didn't
>hold them all the time. Even when I was there during the day they would be
>out of their cots for feeding and then placed back in, even if they were
>awake.

My twins were home from the hospital about 8 weeks when I read
Weissbluth's book "Healthy Sleep Habits, Happy Child". Great
book! Although it recommended that the baby (or babies) be 4
months of age, or 4 months adjusted, I tried his techniques at
2 months adjusted (they were 4 months real age). Be sure to check
out the sections on twins, if you read it.

Basically, put them both down to sleep at the same time (3 naps per
day, plus night-time sleep). Get them both up at the same time.
After making sure that a crying child isn't hungry/wet/cold/hot etc.,
try letting the child cry for a bit. My kids at that age would
often cry for 15 or 20 minutes before sleeping. A few nights the
crying lasted close to an hour, and then I'd go in and see what I
could do about it.

BTW, if you *do* go in to investigate, no talking, no singing, no
playing -- I made that mistake a couple of times (singing), and it
always had the result of one of my little ones waking me up every
night thereafter for some songs....until I would ignore her for a
week or so; then she'd give up.

>BTW, it's not just at night--during the day they insist on being held as
>well.
What do you mean by "insist"? Do they cry when you put them down? For
how long? Can you stand it for up to an hour? Then give it a try.
(If you can't stand the crying, I have no advice to give you....)

Are they sharing a crib? If so, it might help to separate them.
If not, It might help to put them together. Mine shared a crib only
for naps, and only for about six months.

I also instituted a definite bedtime routine, although I don't know
how early that made an impression. We'd sit and read together (from
the first day they came home) and have bottles, then I'd put them
in their cribs. Do you have a routine that might help to signal to
your boys that it's bedtime?

>When/how can I start teaching them to relax themselves to sleep on their
>own?
As I said, I started about 2 months early, at 2 months adjusted, and it
worked. Based on that, you could start trying pretty soon. It may not
work with your kids quite that early, though...

Don't worry: it gets easier. (I can hear my girls right now who are
supposed to be napping, standing in their cribs and making each other
laugh.....beats crying:-)

Best wishes, and CONGARATULATIONS on your twins!!!
- marty
(mom to Alex & Andie, 2.5)

[P. Tierney]

"Marie" > wrote:
>
> I know they are too young for Ferber, but I would *really* like to teach
> them how to fall asleep in their cribs--it seems like an important
> lifeskill.

So is Algebra. And knowing how to change a tire. And being able
to pick a good restaurant.But you aren't insisting that they learn those
skills at this time, and there similarly isn't any reason for them to do
the above at this time either. I'd read something like The No-Cry Sleep
Solution, get ideas from that, and take your time.

You can start routines now, with the expectation that they will
change and be interrupted, but it's too early to stick them in a crib
and make them fend for themselves. Babies need their parents.


P. Tierney

[Daye]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, (Marty
Billingsley) wrote:

>My kids at that age would
>often cry for 15 or 20 minutes before sleeping. A few nights the
>crying lasted close to an hour, and then I'd go in and see what I
>could do about it.

Let me get this straight: you let 4 month old babies cry for an hour
before you checked on them or tried to comfort them??????

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
EDD 11 Jan 2004

[Daye]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 20:42:35 GMT, "Shirley M...have a goodaa \\;-\)"
> wrote:

> They do eventually sleep through the night, get
>potty trained on time (depending upon whose timetable you use for that too)
>and give up bottles. You won't have college students asking for bottles,
>looking for diaper changes and waking up every two hours to be sung to. All
>this hurry, hurry, hurry stuff makes me nuts.

Shirley, that was stated beautifully! Thank you!

I don't have multiples. I don't know what that is like, but I rocked
my DD to sleep way past the 1 year mark. At 2, we snuggle to sleep.
She gets into bed with me. I watch TV or read, and she falls asleep
on her own beside me. We co-sleep at the moment. She has a big girl
bed on order, so I expect that the bedtime routine will change soon.
I loved rocking my child to sleep, and when people would tell me she
was too old, my response was, "She likes it. I like it. I think we
will continue for a while." I certainly don't expect to be snuggling
or rocking her to sleep when she goes to college.

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
EDD 11 Jan 2004

[Sue]

Well Marie,

The babies are still really young to be expecting any sort of routine for
sleep. They need you to hold them as much as you can. Since they were born
prematurely, they also need to have as much contact with you and your
husband as you can. Are you sure they are not overtired? This could lead to
them not being able to relax enough to go to sleep. Try starting your
routine an hour earlier and see if that doesn't make a difference. Any sort
of schedule that you try to impose on them right now would be kind of
inhuman as they are still really little for this. FWIW, my girls didn't have
any sort of regular routine until they were around six months old. However,
I did do the same things, like bath, feeding and cuddling/rocking when they
were very small, but I couldn't say that they knew to go to sleep at that
point. Also, waiting until they are completely asleep to put them down would
be the best thing to do at this point or sleep with them. Good luck.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

Marie > wrote in message
e.rogers.com...
> My twin boys are 3.5 mos old, about 6 wks corrected. They are beginning
to
> sleep 5 hrs at night *once* we get them to sleep, but getting them to
sleep
> is a challenge. They both want to be held while falling asleep, until
they
> are *completely* asleep. If they are even just dozing when we put them
down
> in their crib, they wake up howling and screaming and we have to begin the
> entire settling down/falling asleep process all over again. This is a
pain
> as one of them, who tends towards colic, can sometimes take upwards of two
> hours to fall asleep :-( The other one averages about 30-40 mins for the
> process.
>
> I know they are too young for Ferber, but I would *really* like to teach
> them how to fall asleep in their cribs--it seems like an important
> lifeskill. Besides, they knew how to do it once, I think: they spent the
> first 5.5 wks of their life in the hospital and the nurses certainly
didn't
> hold them all the time. Even when I was there during the day they would
be
> out of their cots for feeding and then placed back in, even if they were
> awake.
>
> BTW, it's not just at night--during the day they insist on being held as
> well.
>
> When/how can I start teaching them to relax themselves to sleep on their
> own?
>
> When/how do I start trying to introduce a "scheduled" nap-time into their
> lives?
>
> TIA
>
> Marie
> Chris & Alex--born 04/23/03 (31 wks gestational)
>
>

[toypup]

"Shirley M...have a goodaa \;-)" > wrote in
message news:%yzXa.66381$YN5.49888@sccrnsc01...
> Oh my, letting a newborn cry doesn't sound like a very comfortable thing
for
> the baby. As far as learning good sleep habits it comes with time. I
> absolutely hate to hear about parents that think one has to "get off on
the
> right foot" right from the get go. You certainly will do what you must do
> but according to Ferber he doesn't recommend the crying out method until
> after 6 months where upon babies understand that just because you aren't
> within viewing you still do exist. Until that time, when you disappear
they
> think they have been abandonee. Again, do what you want, but I found that
> my twins settled down just fine being held and catered to well into the
last
> part of the first year. They do eventually sleep through the night, get
> potty trained on time (depending upon whose timetable you use for that
too)
> and give up bottles. You won't have college students asking for bottles,
> looking for diaper changes and waking up every two hours to be sung to.
All
> this hurry, hurry, hurry stuff makes me nuts. What are we hurrying them
to
> do? Grow up? They will do that very soon. It's amazing to think that my
> twins will be going into 3rd grade and they came home just yesterday.
This
> of course is just my opinion!

You are so right. It really bothers me when parents try to make their kids
grow up so fast. They'll do everything they need to eventually and it won't
harm them at all to do it later. In fact, the relaxed approach may even
work more quickly. Case in point: my friend was letting her child cry to
sleep as an infant. At age 30 months, she still cried to sleep, sometimes
for 45 minutes. Didn't do a darned bit of good, the method never worked to
teach her anything but cry to sleep. DS was always rocked or nursed to
sleep until he was 21 months. He now easily goes to sleep at the age of 2.
I just put him to bed, read a story and say goodnight. He puts himself to
sleep. I'm not saying my method works for everyone, I'm saying everyone
will get to the same point eventually, even my friend's child. It will take
longer with some methods than others, but what's the rush?

[toypup]

"Daye" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, (Marty
> Billingsley) wrote:
>
> >My kids at that age would
> >often cry for 15 or 20 minutes before sleeping. A few nights the
> >crying lasted close to an hour, and then I'd go in and see what I
> >could do about it.
>
> Let me get this straight: you let 4 month old babies cry for an hour
> before you checked on them or tried to comfort them??????

That's what she said. It really bothers me to hear that, but I know of
people who do that. My coworker advised her daughter not to pick up her
child when he cried or he would always want to be picked up. The poor kid
cried for an hour. He was about four months.

[Shirley M...have a goodaa \\;-\)]

FWIW my dad always told me stories about how he would drive me around in his
brand new 1952 Studebaker (sp?) car because I would not sleep and he would
be in his PJ's driving around the country side waiting until I was asleep.
I can tell you that not only was I a great sleeper as a kid, I can zzzz with
the best of them. Their coddling did not affect me to have negative sleep
habits as a child nor as an adult.

Shirley

"toypup" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Daye" > wrote in message
> ...
> > On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 18:35:53 GMT, (Marty
> > Billingsley) wrote:
> >
> > >My kids at that age would
> > >often cry for 15 or 20 minutes before sleeping. A few nights the
> > >crying lasted close to an hour, and then I'd go in and see what I
> > >could do about it.
> >
> > Let me get this straight: you let 4 month old babies cry for an hour
> > before you checked on them or tried to comfort them??????
>
> That's what she said. It really bothers me to hear that, but I know of
> people who do that. My coworker advised her daughter not to pick up her
> child when he cried or he would always want to be picked up. The poor kid
> cried for an hour. He was about four months.
>
>

[Ericka Kammerer]

toypup wrote:


> You are so right. It really bothers me when parents try to make their kids
> grow up so fast. They'll do everything they need to eventually and it won't
> harm them at all to do it later. In fact, the relaxed approach may even
> work more quickly. Case in point: my friend was letting her child cry to
> sleep as an infant. At age 30 months, she still cried to sleep, sometimes
> for 45 minutes. Didn't do a darned bit of good, the method never worked to
> teach her anything but cry to sleep. DS was always rocked or nursed to
> sleep until he was 21 months. He now easily goes to sleep at the age of 2.
> I just put him to bed, read a story and say goodnight. He puts himself to
> sleep. I'm not saying my method works for everyone, I'm saying everyone
> will get to the same point eventually, even my friend's child. It will take
> longer with some methods than others, but what's the rush?


I agree, but with caveats ;-) I'm not a fan of pushing children
to grow up too quickly. On the other hand, I think there are areas
in which we short change them by catering to them too long--almost
as if we've got things backwards. We want them to go to sleep
without help, get by without any comfort objects, and cope with
all kinds of more grown-up situations. On the other hand, we
don't expect them (when they're a bit older than babies, obviously)
to take responsibility for their things, help out around the
house, or be a functional member of the family. I think sometimes
it all boils down to we want things to be easy. We don't want to
deal with the demands either of their needs or of teaching them
when it's so much easier to do things ourselves. And we get
confused and try to make them grow up in ways that aren't that
important and leave them childish in areas that *are* more
important. I certainly fall prey to laziness myself, so I have
sympathy for it, but I think one has to resist.
I also think, when it comes to sleeping issues, that
it's a bit of a tightrope to walk if you don't do well
co-sleeping. On the one hand, if you leave a baby to cry
I think you destroy trust and it leads to more crying and
it delays the day when the child will go to sleep on his
or her own peacefully. On the other hand, I think you do
build patterns of behavior that encourage babies in one
direction or another. If you *always* have the same sleep
routine and it *always* involves somehow parenting the child
to sleep, I think it will be longer before they do it on their
own as well. I always shoot for a middle road, where I
occasionally put the baby down awake but drowsy, but if it
doesn't work, I always go get the baby. In fact, even with
Genevieve only a month old ("only"?! how did she get to be
that old already!) at night she nurses in the dark. So when
she's done, I just put her in her cradle and I don't really
know if she's awake or asleep when I do it. Most of the
time she's out. Sometimes she fusses after I put her down
and then I pick her up again. I do much the same during
the day. If I think she's sleepy but she's not out and I
need to do something, I'll put her down. If it doesn't work,
I'll pick her up ;-) For us, anyway, that seems to work
well.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[David desJardins]

Marie writes:
> I know they are too young for Ferber, but I would *really* like to
> teach them how to fall asleep in their cribs--it seems like an
> important lifeskill.

I guarantee they will acquire the skill of going to sleep by themselves
before they go off to college. I don't think there's any evidence that
children who sleep by themselves grow up to sleep any better (or worse)
than those who cosleep. It's just a short-term issue. (Although I
certainly agree that the first several years---my kids are about 1000
days old---don't always seem like the "short term"!)

David desJardins

[Daye]

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 21:44:00 -0500, Nan > wrote:

>Oh, you put my thoughts right in there. I always figure my 3.5 yo
>won't be sleeping with me when she is 18, so I'll enjoy it now :-)

This reminds me of a funny story. DD likes to go to the bathroom with
me and always has. I asked my MIL if they ever grow out of that. She
turned to my DH (her son) and asked, "Hey, wanna go to the bathroom
with me??" <gg>

--
Daye
Momma to Jayan
EDD 11 Jan 2004