opinions?

[toypup]

DS just started preschool. This is a teaching preschool, so they tend to
use the latest teaching concepts. The reason I chose the school is because
they emphasize formally teaching social skills, rather than leaving the
learning of social skills to chance on the playground. I mean, they do get
to practice their social skills on the playground, but they also have some
direction on what's appropriate, how to interact, etc.

The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to verbally
assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of their age,
some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs, so
short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in line, DS
is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful manner. I
would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an outsider, but
I understand the logic, since this is probably the best route for DS ATM.
He simply could not verbalize more than that for now and to expect more
would just frustrate him and cause him to get physical. I am very willing
to go along with the program, because I think it will help DS learn to
verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes says, "Don't talk to me," or
"Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing this at school when a teacher
greeted him, the teacher was not offended and just said, "Okay," in a
matter of fact way and stopped talking to him. This was really my feelings
on the subject before he started school, but I can see that other adults may
think I'm raising a rude, obnoxious youngster. I guess they are trying to
get the children to express their feelings for now and then verbalize more
fully when they are able.

Opinions, please? Like I said, I do understand the teacher's logic and I
don't want to counter what DS is instructed at school, since that would
really confuse DS. I'd like to explain this to the IL's, so they don't
think DS is trying to be rude. He is just expressing himself like he is
taught at school. They might think he should change schools. Do y'all
think I'm heading down the wrong path? Of course, when DS's verbal skills
improve, I'd expect more politeness, but he's gets so frustrated ATM, just
being able to express himself like he's being taught could really be a big
help.

[Melania]

toypup wrote:
> DS just started preschool. This is a teaching preschool, so they
tend to
> use the latest teaching concepts. The reason I chose the school is
because
> they emphasize formally teaching social skills, rather than leaving
the
> learning of social skills to chance on the playground. I mean, they
do get
> to practice their social skills on the playground, but they also have
some
> direction on what's appropriate, how to interact, etc.
>
> The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to
verbally
> assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of
their age,
> some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs,
so
> short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in
line, DS
> is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
manner.

I would think you could try to teach children to say, "Please stop.
It's my turn," in a firm but gentle voice. How old is your son?

I
> would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an
outsider, but
> I understand the logic, since this is probably the best route for DS
ATM.
> He simply could not verbalize more than that for now and to expect
more
> would just frustrate him and cause him to get physical. I am very
willing
> to go along with the program, because I think it will help DS learn
to
> verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes says, "Don't talk to
me," or
> "Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing this at school when a
teacher
> greeted him, the teacher was not offended and just said, "Okay," in
a
> matter of fact way and stopped talking to him.

I agree with this too, but again I am personally trying to teach ds to
say "please." He can't say "leave me alone" yet, but when he can, I
expect him to say "please" with it (even if he can't control his tone
of voice, he understands what please means!). If they're teaching
social skills, I'd want them to be teaching social conventions (such as
framing what are basically commands/demands in polite, conciliatory
ways) as well. It shouldn't be that hard to add one word (please or
thanks) to the basic sentence the child is using. That way, I don't
think people can accuse you of raising a rude, obnoxious child!

Just my $.02.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[toypup]

"Melania" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> toypup wrote:
>> is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
> manner.
>
> I would think you could try to teach children to say, "Please stop.
> It's my turn," in a firm but gentle voice. How old is your son?

3 yo, but not as verbal as I've seen some 3 yo's. "Please stop. It's my
turn," may be a bit much for him to spit out at once, especially in the heat
of the moment when he just wants to push them out of the way.

>> verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes says, "Don't talk to
> me," or
>> "Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing this at school when a
> teacher
>> greeted him, the teacher was not offended and just said, "Okay," in
> a
>> matter of fact way and stopped talking to him.
>
> I agree with this too, but again I am personally trying to teach ds to
> say "please." He can't say "leave me alone" yet, but when he can, I
> expect him to say "please" with it (even if he can't control his tone
> of voice, he understands what please means!).

Ah, I like the "please" added in there. I'll try that. I can settle for a
rude tone, but with "please," for now. Thanks for the suggestion. I like
what you're saying. I will insist on it and see how it goes.

[Melania]

toypup wrote:
> "Melania" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > toypup wrote:
> >> is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
> > manner.
> >
> > I would think you could try to teach children to say, "Please stop.
> > It's my turn," in a firm but gentle voice. How old is your son?
>
> 3 yo, but not as verbal as I've seen some 3 yo's. "Please stop.
It's my
> turn," may be a bit much for him to spit out at once, especially in
the heat
> of the moment when he just wants to push them out of the way.

Oh, yeah! I don't think mine will be that verbal at three, either.
Right now it would be vehement head shaking and hand waving, with an
escalating "no no no NO NO NO NAAAAAAAOOOOOOHHHH!!!" We'll see how he's
doing in 10 months . . .

>
> >> verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes says, "Don't talk to
> > me," or
> >> "Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing this at school when
a
> > teacher
> >> greeted him, the teacher was not offended and just said, "Okay,"
in
> > a
> >> matter of fact way and stopped talking to him.
> >
> > I agree with this too, but again I am personally trying to teach ds
to
> > say "please." He can't say "leave me alone" yet, but when he can, I
> > expect him to say "please" with it (even if he can't control his
tone
> > of voice, he understands what please means!).
>
> Ah, I like the "please" added in there. I'll try that. I can settle
for a
> rude tone, but with "please," for now. Thanks for the suggestion. I
like
> what you're saying. I will insist on it and see how it goes.

Cool! I'm glad you like the idea - I don't think it's reasonable to
expect someone so young to be in control of their emotions enough to
"mask" anger and frustration with a pleasant demeanor, but I do think
if they manage to snarl out a "please," they're at least getting the
gist. ;)

(mine now is bringing me random things and standing there with a
pointed look in his eyes, signing "thank you! thank you! thank you!" -
as in, "you're supposed to thank me now, Mom!!" He will add please
pretty quickly to a request if it's not being immediately met, too, but
it's not automatic yet.)

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[P. Tierney]

"Melania" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> If they're teaching
> social skills, I'd want them to be teaching social conventions (such as
> framing what are basically commands/demands in polite, conciliatory
> ways) as well. It shouldn't be that hard to add one word (please or
> thanks) to the basic sentence the child is using.

It might be worth asking the teacher if saying it in a more
polite form is a step that they are doing down the road. It
isn't *that* hard to add a word, but to the kid it might be
since they are already learning a new concept, for many of
them. It might be one step in a larger lesson.

Were I the OP, I'd ask the teacher that, and if she has any
specific phrases that will teach, jot them down. Then, the
parent can use them at home and, by incorporating the next
phrases in a more polite tone, will get the child a step ahead,
and possibly avoid further confusion if the teacher has some
other steps planned out for the students.


P.
Tierney

[Sidheag McCormack]

I think in the circumstances what the preschool is doing sounds fine. I
don't see any harm in adding "Please" in when telling him what to say, but
I wouldn't worry or pester him if he didn't manage for now - saying
anything is a lot better than shoving! Another thing I might do is to
expand back: e.g. if he says "Go away!" I might say "You'd like to play by
yourself for a while - OK", rather than just "OK", in the hope that in due
course this might help him to say "I'd like to play by myself for a while"
instead. (Dunno if that'd be a good idea in the case of "Don't talk to me!"
though!)

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003

[Mary Ann Tuli]

toypup wrote:
> DS just started preschool. This is a teaching preschool, so they tend to
> use the latest teaching concepts. The reason I chose the school is because
> they emphasize formally teaching social skills, rather than leaving the
> learning of social skills to chance on the playground. I mean, they do get
> to practice their social skills on the playground, but they also have some
> direction on what's appropriate, how to interact, etc.
>
> The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to verbally
> assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of their age,
> some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs, so
> short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in line, DS
> is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful manner. I
> would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an outsider,

Yes, it would sound rude IMO.
Teaching a young child to be loud and forceful in such a situation is
inappropriate. I would think it better to teach things to be done
exactly how you want them to be done. The child will pick it up through
example in due course.


> but
> I understand the logic, since this is probably the best route for DS ATM.
> He simply could not verbalize more than that for now and to expect more
> would just frustrate him and cause him to get physical.

Then, they learn not to be physical and use the words they do have.
Unless the child has speech problems, I think if you're able to teach it
to understand when to use words and when to use physical force that
child should be able to string three words together in a polite manner
e.g please don't push. Yes, a child will probably use whatever means
they have to get their point across and they have to learn the most
appropriate. I don't think the way to do this is to teach a way which
will need to be re-taught anyway.

I am very willing
> to go along with the program, because I think it will help DS learn to
> verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes says, "Don't talk to me," or
> "Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing this at school when a teacher
> greeted him, the teacher was not offended and just said, "Okay,"

if I greeted someone and the responded by saying what your son said I
would be insulted. When do they plan on teaching him that if someone
greets you it's polite to say hello back?


> Opinions, please? Like I said, I do understand the teacher's logic and I
> don't want to counter what DS is instructed at school, since that would
> really confuse DS. I'd like to explain this to the IL's, so they don't
> think DS is trying to be rude. He is just expressing himself like he is
> taught at school. They might think he should change schools. Do y'all
> think I'm heading down the wrong path?

It would not be right to me. It seems he is learning behaviour which is
not socially acceptible and so you're feeling you need to explain his
behaviour.

> Of course, when DS's verbal skills
> improve, I'd expect more politeness, but he's gets so frustrated ATM, just
> being able to express himself like he's being taught could really be a big
> help.
>
IMO, a few pleases and thank yous will show people that you're teaching
your child the right thing.

Mary Ann

[Penny Gaines]

Sidheag McCormack wrote:

> I think in the circumstances what the preschool is doing sounds fine. I
> don't see any harm in adding "Please" in when telling him what to say, but
> I wouldn't worry or pester him if he didn't manage for now - saying
> anything is a lot better than shoving! Another thing I might do is to
> expand back: e.g. if he says "Go away!" I might say "You'd like to play by
> yourself for a while - OK", rather than just "OK", in the hope that in due
> course this might help him to say "I'd like to play by myself for a while"
> instead. (Dunno if that'd be a good idea in the case of "Don't talk to
> me!" though!)

What she said. :-)

I think it would be a good idea to check with the school.

If it was me, I would have introduced them to "please stop: its my turn".
We think of it as a whole extra word, but when you think about it
"pleas-stop" would probably feel like a two-syllable word to the
children. It might be worth mentioning that to the teacher: they may
not have thought of it.

IME, I doubt that getting the child to say "please" at the front of
the school phrase would work.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[hobbes]

"Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
...
> toypup wrote:

> > The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to
verbally
> > assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of their
age,
> > some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs, so
> > short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in line,
DS
> > is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
manner. I
> > would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an outsider,
>
> Yes, it would sound rude IMO.
> Teaching a young child to be loud and forceful in such a situation is
> inappropriate. I would think it better to teach things to be done
> exactly how you want them to be done. The child will pick it up through
> example in due course.

I agree that it's best for the OP to model more polite language, but IMO, if
another child cuts in line, they're much more apt to respond to a forceful,
"STOP!" than they are to a more polite tone. To some extent, I think it's
okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but it's
much better than a push would be.

My guess is that this is just the beginning, and once they get kids used to
finding the words to express themselves and get their points across, they'll
help them find nicer ways to say it. DS is 4, and he still gets too worked
up when upset to come up with nice, complete sentences--but he can tell his
sister to "STOP" and if he does that without hitting her, I'm all for it.
The pleases will come.

>
> Unless the child has speech problems, I think if you're able to teach it
> to understand when to use words and when to use physical force that
> child should be able to string three words together in a polite manner
> e.g please don't push. Yes, a child will probably use whatever means
> they have to get their point across and they have to learn the most
> appropriate. I don't think the way to do this is to teach a way which
> will need to be re-taught anyway.

I don't know that another child would respond to a nicer tone of voice, and
then you'd still have frustration and possible escalation to physical
force--and he'd be learning that using words doesn't work nearly as well as
a good old-fashioned shove. I don't know that later talking about tone of
voice and the addition of the word please would be re-teaching, but rather
honing the response when he's ready to handle that.

To the OP: I would go along with the program for a while, and praise him for
expressing his feelings. But I would do as others suggested and model nice
ways of talking. Particularly when he's talking to adults, who will respond
to a nice tone of voice. Where I wouldn't push him to say please when he's
dealing with another 3 y.o., I would probably encourage him to say, "please
leave me alone" when he's talking to you, and then honor that request. And
as he gets older and more adept at expressing himself, you could start
pushing the more polite language.

If you tell your in-laws that right now, you're just working on helping him
use words rather than physical force, and that you'll be working on
politeness as he grows and as his verbal skills improve, it seems like
they'd understand. Right?

--
Jodi
SAHM to Oliver (4 years)
and Arwen (22 months)

[Mary Ann Tuli]

hobbes wrote:
> "Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>toypup wrote:
>
>
>>>The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to
>
> verbally
>
>>>assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of their
>
> age,
>
>>>some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs, so
>>>short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in line,
>
> DS
>
>>>is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
>
> manner. I
>
>>>would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an outsider,
>>
>>Yes, it would sound rude IMO.
>>Teaching a young child to be loud and forceful in such a situation is
>>inappropriate. I would think it better to teach things to be done
>>exactly how you want them to be done. The child will pick it up through
>>example in due course.
>
>
> I agree that it's best for the OP to model more polite language, but IMO, if
> another child cuts in line, they're much more apt to respond to a forceful,
> "STOP!" than they are to a more polite tone.

"STOP" I would save for really big issues, like children hurting each
other, or a parent to a child when touching something hot. If you're
using STOP for everyday things like pushing in line what are you going
to use for the bigger problems?

> To some extent, I think it's
> okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
> they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but it's
> much better than a push would be.

I can understand this approach somewhat for a child that is maybe going
through a phase of pushing and shoving, but as a general school
philosophy is does seem rather strange.

>
> My guess is that this is just the beginning, and once they get kids used to
> finding the words to express themselves and get their points across, they'll
> help them find nicer ways to say it.

So, why not just start saying it nicely? You can still be verbally
forceful and use please.

> DS is 4, and he still gets too worked
> up when upset to come up with nice, complete sentences--but he can tell his
> sister to "STOP" and if he does that without hitting her, I'm all for it.
> The pleases will come.

Again, this is an example where *any* words are better than hitting, but
I don't know that the OP mentioned that this was an issue with her
son.She did say "He simply could not verbalize more than that for now
and to expect more would just frustrate him and cause him to get
physical. " So, I don't know whether she actually has a problem.

>>Unless the child has speech problems, I think if you're able to teach it
>>to understand when to use words and when to use physical force that
>>child should be able to string three words together in a polite manner
>>e.g please don't push. Yes, a child will probably use whatever means
>>they have to get their point across and they have to learn the most
>>appropriate. I don't think the way to do this is to teach a way which
>>will need to be re-taught anyway.
>
>
> I don't know that another child would respond to a nicer tone of voice,

By polite manner I don't necessarily mean being meek and quiet, but
using please.

> and
> then you'd still have frustration and possible escalation to physical
> force--

Possible. Yes. It seems that the school is taking the approach that
unless they teach them this rather harsh and IMO rude way of talking the
kids will be using physical shoves etc to express themselves.

> and he'd be learning that using words doesn't work nearly as well as
> a good old-fashioned shove. I don't know that later talking about tone of
> voice and the addition of the word please would be re-teaching, but rather
> honing the response when he's ready to handle that.

IMO, it is much easier to start how you mean to go on when it comes to
manners.

Mary Ann

[Irene]

Hmmm...I think working on tone of voice might be a more important issue
than the amount of words, honestly. We've been working on ds (also
3yo, but I think more verbal than yours) with apologies. He's mastered
the quick "Sorry!" a long time ago, but we've really had to work on it
sounding apologetic and not just like a breezy "Oh, I said sorry now,
so everything should be ok."

(I picked this one to work on in particular after he said "Sorry!" to
one of his cousins (4.75 y.o.) and she burst into tears...)

At least tone of voice doesn't require more words...

Irene

[Melania]

Sidheag McCormack wrote:
> I think in the circumstances what the preschool is doing sounds fine.
I
> don't see any harm in adding "Please" in when telling him what to
say, but
> I wouldn't worry or pester him if he didn't manage for now - saying
> anything is a lot better than shoving! Another thing I might do is to
> expand back: e.g. if he says "Go away!" I might say "You'd like to
play by
> yourself for a while - OK", rather than just "OK", in the hope that
in due
> course this might help him to say "I'd like to play by myself for a
while"
> instead. (Dunno if that'd be a good idea in the case of "Don't talk
to me!"
> though!)
>
> Sidheag
> DS Colin Oct 27 2003

That makes good sense, as does P. Tierney's comment. I think it's neat
that my own child is already expecting please and thank yous from me,
at 26 mo. I also have seen that he responds better to behaviour
management when we treat him with respect and consideration, explaining
why we want him to change what he's doing, than if we just snap (tired,
grouchy, etc) and say, "stop that!"

I hope that by communicating openly and respectfully with him now,
we're modelling behaviour that he will aspire to, as his abilities
develop.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[toypup]

"Sidheag McCormack" > wrote in message
...
>I think in the circumstances what the preschool is doing sounds fine. I
> don't see any harm in adding "Please" in when telling him what to say, but
> I wouldn't worry or pester him if he didn't manage for now - saying
> anything is a lot better than shoving! Another thing I might do is to
> expand back: e.g. if he says "Go away!" I might say "You'd like to play by
> yourself for a while - OK", rather than just "OK", in the hope that in due
> course this might help him to say "I'd like to play by myself for a while"
> instead. (Dunno if that'd be a good idea in the case of "Don't talk to
> me!"
> though!)

Good points.

[toypup]

"P. Tierney" > wrote in message
news:DQQXd.51346$Ze3.22884@attbi_s51...
>
> "Melania" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>
>> If they're teaching
>> social skills, I'd want them to be teaching social conventions (such as
>> framing what are basically commands/demands in polite, conciliatory
>> ways) as well. It shouldn't be that hard to add one word (please or
>> thanks) to the basic sentence the child is using.
>
> It might be worth asking the teacher if saying it in a more
> polite form is a step that they are doing down the road. It
> isn't *that* hard to add a word, but to the kid it might be
> since they are already learning a new concept, for many of
> them. It might be one step in a larger lesson.

I really think this is just a start. The school is newly opened and they
are starting fresh with all the students. The teacher said this age group
has such variability in verbal skills. Some are not talking much and some
are chatterboxes. She said DS is very physical with the kids and uses
physical force because he gets frustrated at not being able to express
himself. He may even be more frustrated with kids less verbal than he,
since they don't understand him enough to respond. I see that at home. I
see her just trying to get them to express themselves for now and then
working on politeness when they can finally get the words out.

> Were I the OP, I'd ask the teacher that, and if she has any
> specific phrases that will teach, jot them down. Then, the
> parent can use them at home and, by incorporating the next
> phrases in a more polite tone, will get the child a step ahead,
> and possibly avoid further confusion if the teacher has some
> other steps planned out for the students.

Yes, I might do that.

[toypup]

"hobbes" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
> ...
>> toypup wrote:
>
>> > The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to
> verbally
>> > assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of their
> age,
>> > some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full paragraphs, so
>> > short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone cuts in line,
> DS
>> > is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud, forceful
> manner. I
>> > would think some of this may come across as rather rude to an outsider,
>>
>> Yes, it would sound rude IMO.
>> Teaching a young child to be loud and forceful in such a situation is
>> inappropriate. I would think it better to teach things to be done
>> exactly how you want them to be done. The child will pick it up through
>> example in due course.
>
> I agree that it's best for the OP to model more polite language, but IMO,
> if
> another child cuts in line, they're much more apt to respond to a
> forceful,
> "STOP!" than they are to a more polite tone. To some extent, I think it's
> okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
> they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but
> it's
> much better than a push would be.
>
> My guess is that this is just the beginning, and once they get kids used
> to
> finding the words to express themselves and get their points across,
> they'll
> help them find nicer ways to say it. DS is 4, and he still gets too worked
> up when upset to come up with nice, complete sentences--but he can tell
> his
> sister to "STOP" and if he does that without hitting her, I'm all for it.
> The pleases will come.
>
>>
>> Unless the child has speech problems, I think if you're able to teach it
>> to understand when to use words and when to use physical force that
>> child should be able to string three words together in a polite manner
>> e.g please don't push. Yes, a child will probably use whatever means
>> they have to get their point across and they have to learn the most
>> appropriate. I don't think the way to do this is to teach a way which
>> will need to be re-taught anyway.
>
> I don't know that another child would respond to a nicer tone of voice,
> and
> then you'd still have frustration and possible escalation to physical
> force--and he'd be learning that using words doesn't work nearly as well
> as
> a good old-fashioned shove. I don't know that later talking about tone of
> voice and the addition of the word please would be re-teaching, but rather
> honing the response when he's ready to handle that.
>
> To the OP: I would go along with the program for a while, and praise him
> for
> expressing his feelings. But I would do as others suggested and model nice
> ways of talking. Particularly when he's talking to adults, who will
> respond
> to a nice tone of voice. Where I wouldn't push him to say please when he's
> dealing with another 3 y.o., I would probably encourage him to say,
> "please
> leave me alone" when he's talking to you, and then honor that request. And
> as he gets older and more adept at expressing himself, you could start
> pushing the more polite language.

That sounds about right. I will go with that.
>
> If you tell your in-laws that right now, you're just working on helping
> him
> use words rather than physical force, and that you'll be working on
> politeness as he grows and as his verbal skills improve, it seems like
> they'd understand. Right?

Thank you. I think we are on the same page here. I'm hoping they do
understand.

[toypup]

"Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
...
> hobbes wrote:
>> To some extent, I think it's
>> okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
>> they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but
>> it's
>> much better than a push would be.
>
> I can understand this approach somewhat for a child that is maybe going
> through a phase of pushing and shoving, but as a general school philosophy
> is does seem rather strange.

Well, DS is going through a phase of pushing and shoving to assert himself.

>
>>
>> My guess is that this is just the beginning, and once they get kids used
>> to
>> finding the words to express themselves and get their points across,
>> they'll
>> help them find nicer ways to say it.
>
> So, why not just start saying it nicely? You can still be verbally
> forceful and use please.

I agree with Jodi, here. The more polite tones may not work with other kids
(especially other kids who are less verbal than he) and DS will learn that
words don't work nearly so well as pushing.

>
>> DS is 4, and he still gets too worked
>> up when upset to come up with nice, complete sentences--but he can tell
>> his
>> sister to "STOP" and if he does that without hitting her, I'm all for it.
>> The pleases will come.
>
> Again, this is an example where *any* words are better than hitting, but I
> don't know that the OP mentioned that this was an issue with her son.She
> did say "He simply could not verbalize more than that for now and to
> expect more would just frustrate him and cause him to get physical. " So,
> I don't know whether she actually has a problem.

DS doesn't get into fights or anything, but he is more physical than I'd
like, so I guess it is a problem. Same as Jodi here. If he can get the
kids to stop cutting the line without a fight or a push, I'd be happy. Once
he gets that out of the way, I'm all for more polite, but I think the class
as a whole will move in that direction and I expect to see that as the year
progresses.

I'm glad I posted and thank everyone for all the responses. I thought I was
the oddball for thinking the way I did on this issue. I was surprised to
see the teacher thinking the same way and now posters on this ng. I didn't
know if my logic was adding up, but apparently there are others on the same
line as me.

I do teach DS "please" and "thank you." He can say them most of the time.
It's when his blood gets boiling over some incident that is the problem,
like someone cutting in line, taking his toy, etc. I'm not sure is saying
"please" is something an adult could do in those situations. When was the
last time you saw someone knowingly cut in line and the people behind him
ask him to please stop? I might say, "The line is over here," but I don't
think the preschool crowd would understand what that implies. She knows
it's there, she wants to cut; so what if it's there, ya know? They need
words that would work and "STOP" might have to be it.

[Mary Ann Tuli]

toypup wrote:
> "Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>hobbes wrote:
>>
>>>To some extent, I think it's
>>>okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
>>>they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but
>>>it's
>>>much better than a push would be.
>>
>>I can understand this approach somewhat for a child that is maybe going
>>through a phase of pushing and shoving, but as a general school philosophy
>>is does seem rather strange.
>
>
> Well, DS is going through a phase of pushing and shoving to assert himself.

Right, well that's a totally different kettle of fish. The way I
understood it was that all kids were being taught to say "STOP, It's MY
turn" in a loud voice. Clearly this is preferable to pushing and shoving
and from what you now say it seems that they are only teaching this to
kids who are currently inappropriatly using force.

>>>DS is 4, and he still gets too worked
>>>up when upset to come up with nice, complete sentences--but he can tell
>>>his
>>>sister to "STOP" and if he does that without hitting her, I'm all for it.
>>>The pleases will come.
>>
>>Again, this is an example where *any* words are better than hitting, but I
>>don't know that the OP mentioned that this was an issue with her son.She
>>did say "He simply could not verbalize more than that for now and to
>>expect more would just frustrate him and cause him to get physical. " So,
>>I don't know whether she actually has a problem.
>
>
> DS doesn't get into fights or anything, but he is more physical than I'd
> like, so I guess it is a problem.

Hmmmm, I'd be careful with that. Many (most?) children go through a
phase of seeing that being physical has quick results and often gets
lots of attention. I wouldn't say that was a problem, just part of
learning. Are his daycare concerned?

> Same as Jodi here. If he can get the
> kids to stop cutting the line without a fight or a push, I'd be happy. Once
> he gets that out of the way, I'm all for more polite, but I think the class
> as a whole will move in that direction and I expect to see that as the year
> progresses.

I hope so.
>
> I'm glad I posted and thank everyone for all the responses. I thought I was
> the oddball for thinking the way I did on this issue. I was surprised to
> see the teacher thinking the same way and now posters on this ng. I didn't
> know if my logic was adding up, but apparently there are others on the same
> line as me.

I feel like the odd ball! ;-)

Mary Ann

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"toypup" > wrote in message
. com...
> DS just started preschool. This is a teaching preschool, so they tend to
> use the latest teaching concepts. The reason I chose the school is
> because they emphasize formally teaching social skills, rather than
> leaving the learning of social skills to chance on the playground. I
> mean, they do get to practice their social skills on the playground, but
> they also have some direction on what's appropriate, how to interact, etc.
>
> The teacher told me today that she was showing the children how to
> verbally assert themselves, rather than using physical force. Because of
> their age, some of them are not verbal enough to come out with full
> paragraphs, so short and sweet is acceptable and encouraged. If someone
> cuts in line, DS is instructed to say, "STOP! It's MY turn!" in a loud,
> forceful manner. I would think some of this may come across as rather
> rude to an outsider, but I understand the logic, since this is probably
> the best route for DS ATM. He simply could not verbalize more than that
> for now and to expect more would just frustrate him and cause him to get
> physical. I am very willing to go along with the program, because I think
> it will help DS learn to verbalize his wants and needs. He sometimes
> says, "Don't talk to me," or "Leave me alone." When I witnessed him doing
> this at school when a teacher greeted him, the teacher was not offended
> and just said, "Okay," in a matter of fact way and stopped talking to
> him. This was really my feelings on the subject before he started school,
> but I can see that other adults may think I'm raising a rude, obnoxious
> youngster. I guess they are trying to get the children to express their
> feelings for now and then verbalize more fully when they are able.
>
> Opinions, please?

I like your preschool :).

Your son's 2 or 3, right? At that age, DD's daycare also taught the
children to say "NO" or "Stop" followed by either "it hurts" (for biting and
pulling) and "my turn" (for taking turns). I never thought it of being
rude; it was to teach children with very limited speaking skills how to get
their feelings across without the biting, hitting and pulling. Without
these few words, young children may resort to screaming, biting, hitting and
pulling to express their anger or frustration.

At that age, we also heard (and this was taught by one of DD's friends'
mom), "You hurt my feelings" (these girls had more advance speech) as well
as "I want to be by myself". Like the teacher, we weren't offended because
that's pretty much what to expect from 2s and 3s.

Jeanne

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"Melania" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I would think you could try to teach children to say, "Please stop.
> It's my turn," in a firm but gentle voice. How old is your son?
>

I think he's only 3, maybe not quite 3.

I taught DD (and now DS) "please" very early (as in "Nurse, please?" for "I
need to be breastfed now!") but in the preschool situation where kids are
getting excited (annoyed or angry), I think the above phrase would be beyond
most children that age.

Jeanne

[toypup]

"Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
...
> toypup wrote:
>> "Mary Ann Tuli" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>hobbes wrote:
>>>
>>>>To some extent, I think it's
>>>>okay for kids to be a little rude to peers, if they can get the response
>>>>they want without having to use force. It does sound a little rude, but
>>>>it's
>>>>much better than a push would be.
>>>
>>>I can understand this approach somewhat for a child that is maybe going
>>>through a phase of pushing and shoving, but as a general school
>>>philosophy is does seem rather strange.
>>
>>
>> Well, DS is going through a phase of pushing and shoving to assert
>> himself.
>
> Right, well that's a totally different kettle of fish. The way I
> understood it was that all kids were being taught to say "STOP, It's MY
> turn" in a loud voice. Clearly this is preferable to pushing and shoving
> and from what you now say it seems that they are only teaching this to
> kids who are currently inappropriatly using force.

Well, I think she lectured the class on it.

>> DS doesn't get into fights or anything, but he is more physical than I'd
>> like, so I guess it is a problem.
>
> Hmmmm, I'd be careful with that. Many (most?) children go through a phase
> of seeing that being physical has quick results and often gets lots of
> attention. I wouldn't say that was a problem, just part of learning. Are
> his daycare concerned?

The teacher mentioned DS was aggressive, but not like it's a problem. It's
a phase that they have to help him through by teaching him to use his words.