Perspective

[Sue]

Hi everyone,

I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.

We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children. Despite
my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in their
things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is strewn
all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms that
are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to move.
I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they are
doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to do.
I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their own,
not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we have
or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did mention
this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs. Their
trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over the
floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end up
doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
the same situation?
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Stephanie]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
do.
> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
> the same situation?
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)
>
>

I do not have kids your age at all. My kids are little. But I picked up this
book on someone's advice. And it speaks to your age kids too.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761512128/qid=1110826543/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-2363937-9137640?v=glance&s=books&n=507846

It gives me a whole new perspective on Dorothy's comment about many people
just talk too much. Anyway, it has a whole section on chores with a
different spin for different ages.

Good luck!

[Nan]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:51:42 -0500, "Sue"
> scribbled:

>Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
>care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
>house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
>the same situation?

I think kids really don't care all that much about their surroundings,
which is why it's so maddening for us moms ;-)
However, it's not unreasonable to expect kids their ages to pitch in
as you see fit.
What I did in the past when my ds was younger was to ban television,
video games, friends, and toys if he didn't cooperate with me.
If I had to pick up his junk, it disappeared for a while, and he had
to earn it back.

Nan

[Circe]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up.

Okay, right here is your problem. TALKING about it isn't working. You have
to DO something about it.

My kids are not as old as yours, so I'm a little more lenient about making
them put away their messes (it's difficult right now because the youngest is
only 3yo and he can make such a big mess that it's really not fair to ask
the older kids to try to clean up when a significant proportion of the mess
isn't theirs). Even so, I am getting a bit more help from the older two than
I used to. (My 5yo actually came down this morning and put away her Barbies
because I told her last night at bedtime that she needed to do that for me.
No argument and she did a good job. It was sweet.)

Anyway, onto my main point--DOING something about their not cleaning up
after themselves. When the mess is something I clearly CAN'T be lenient
about and it is obvious to whom the mess belongs, I issue an ultimatum: the
kid cleans up the mess by X time or *I* clean it up and it goes in "jail"
until *I* decide it can come out again. The older kids have had their
favorite toys in jail often enough that they know I mean business and
comply.

So, I'd recommend having a logical consequence for failing to pick up after
themselves. I think the logical consequence of not putting your things back
where they belong is that, the next time you want them, they won't be where
you think they ought to be. And being "in jail" is as good a place as any.

> dishes,

I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes. We have
a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many nights,
but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they get older,
assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them because I
think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.

> laundry (their own, not mine),

Again, this is something I can't see myself ever delegating to the kids. My
parents did the laundry (all of it together) when we were kids and I think
it's wasteful of water and electricity to wash small loads (which is what
you inevitably end up with if everyone does his/her own laundry and has to
wash once a week or so to have sufficient undergarments and socks). I will
ultimately expect them to put their clothes away after it is laundered,
however.

Now, I personally think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to manage her own
laundry if that's the way you want to handle things in your household. But
I'm not sure about expecting that of either an 8 or 9yo. I'd be afraid
they'd ruin their things by washing at the wrong temperature, with colors
that run, or having them in too hot a dryer, and that would cost me in the
long run. So I'd keep the kids' laundry to myself until they were closer to
puberty, frankly.

> picking up after themselves,

Expecting them to pick up after themselves is reasonable at their ages.
However, you may need to *help* them to do this by insisting that things be
put away before another activity can be started. It's a police job, to be
sure, but if you stick to it and apply the consequence when they fail to
meet expectations, they're likely to get the message and shape up.

> Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings

Well, yeah, your perspective is off if you expect them to *care*. I don't
think that average kids care all that much about how messy or tidy their
surroundings are. They may *start* to care when they can't find their stuff,
though!

> or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help?

I would expect them to help, but perhaps I would expect less help (at least
when it comes to some of the more routine stuf like dishes and laundry) and
I would certainly not expect that help to come spontaneously. I would expect
to have to remind (my kids would say "nag"), and I would expect to
occasionally have to pitch in to help get the job done (no consequences for
my pitching in if I'm asked to help and they are actually holding up their
end).
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Marie]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 13:51:42 -0500, "Sue"
> wrote:
>nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
>care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
>house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
>the same situation?

You know, when I was their age (and I'm pretty sure you also), I was
doing most of the housecleaning, and having to keep my bedroom
spotless. Not because I wanted to, mind you!! And today my bedroom is
a mess, the laundry is piled up, so are the dishes, and the hallway
and kitchen are muddy where the dog will not wipe her feet before she
comes in from outdoors ;o) (I actually do swiffer up the floor on
these days but I wait until the end of the day or I'd be doing it
every couple of hours)
So, knowing that I grew up cleaning the house, I know it is not too
much to expect from 3 children.
Having said that, my kids are the same as yours. Everything is a mess,
they do not ever care if something is broken.(and we never replace
anything, so it's not that they know they'll just get another one) It
is a huge fight and takes all day (literally) to clean up their
bedroom and the laundry room (that is where all the art stuff and
books are and it's mostly their mess) The only thing that has ever
worked for them is to have a schedule of when to clean their things
up. A specific part of the day, before lunch, or while you are cooking
dinner, or before bed. And I just have to stand over them. When I do
make up this schedule, we are excited and ready to follow it and all
promise to never stray from it. 3 days later, everything is trashed
again. It is tiring having to stand over them and the whole thing
causes more stress for me than the trashed bedroom. Last year, I
cleaned their bedroom out myself. Every toy, paper, knick-knack, book,
everything was gone through, and I got rid of probably 85% of the
stuff they had in there. We've always had a toybox, storage box or
shelf for everything they own and still it's all a mess.
So I have absolutely no advice for you, only commiseration. Send them
to the meanest babysitter you can and do it all yourself :oP
You know, though, my 8 and 9 year old have no problem cleaing the 2
year old's bedroom. I wonder why that is!
Marie

[toypup]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
> Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
> their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
> strewn
> all over and/or torn up.

I never cared as a kid. Lecturing just made things worse. Then, I really
didn't care.

>I have been painting most of the morning
>and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
>have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
> mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
> Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
> the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
> up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
> in
> the same situation?

My kids are way younger than yours. Maybe when they are your children's
ages, I may have your problem. I can only tell you what I do with my
preschooler. We are not the neatest house on the block, but sometimes, I
want things put away. After every meal, DS must clear his plate and cup
from the table or else he's not allowed to leave the table. He does it
automatically now, so I never have to remind him. If there are toys
everywhere and I want them put away, he needs to help me put them away or
else we don't do the next thing he wants to be doing. In your case, they
would not be on the computer or watching tv or playing the keyboard until
their mess is cleaned up. Sometimes, I tell DS to hurry up and put away the
dvd's or toys or whatever so we can go to his sister's room, which he sees
as a treat. You can use the tv or computer or keyboard as the carrot.

[Marie]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:18:18 -0800, "Circe" > wrote:
>Now, I personally think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to manage her own
>laundry if that's the way you want to handle things in your household. But
>I'm not sure about expecting that of either an 8 or 9yo. I'd be afraid
>they'd ruin their things by washing at the wrong temperature, with colors
>that run, or having them in too hot a dryer, and that would cost me in the
>long run. So I'd keep the kids' laundry to myself until they were closer to
>puberty, frankly.

I wash everything together, in hot water/cold rinse, and always use
the same setting on the dryer, and have only had anything bad happen
once. I washed a red bandana and everything in the load became a bit
pinker. Maybe we just all have clothes that don't require much
attention. I was never taught about laundry, anyway.
Marie

[JennP]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up.

Love him or hate him, there was an interesting article from John Rosemond a
year or so ago kind of about this. (please let's not turn this into a
Rosemond debate) It focused more on the toys. Basically he said if they
aren't putting them away then put away almost all of them and leave a few
out. The remaining toys act as a "toy bank". Organize them on shelves in a
storage area and if they want to take out a toy from the "toy bank" they
have to put another one back before doing so. Your girls are old enough that
I should think it would work pretty well. They might not like it at first,
but you can decide how many toys get to come out for each girl at first.
Just an idea.

As for the trash and dishes...personally I would say no food ouside of the
kitchen (this is my rule in our house) and even then they are responsible
for clearing their dishes and garbage. Some type of consequence can be set
up if they don't. I would think that maybe a chore schedule charted out in a
visible place might be helpful also. That way they know what is expected of
them and if they don't do it there is a consequence. Just a few ideas. HTH.

JennP.

[Sue]

"JennP" > wrote in message
> Love him or hate him, there was an interesting article from John Rosemond
a
> year or so ago kind of about this. (please let's not turn this into a
> Rosemond debate) It focused more on the toys. Basically he said if they
> aren't putting them away then put away almost all of them and leave a few
> out. The remaining toys act as a "toy bank". Organize them on shelves in a
> storage area and if they want to take out a toy from the "toy bank" they
> have to put another one back before doing so. Your girls are old enough
that
> I should think it would work pretty well. They might not like it at first,
> but you can decide how many toys get to come out for each girl at first.
> Just an idea.

I have tried that and basically they don't care if they have their stuff or
not. It's probably been about four months or so, but I had cleaned their
room and basically stripped everything out of there and kept things in my
office. I had them "check" things out as a library type thing but we got
away from that and now that we are moving, things are in a total disarray.
The toys I can cope with because I know it's a clean up first before you can
get another out thing and as soon as I can get things organized again, I
will feel much better about things.

> As for the trash and dishes...personally I would say no food ouside of the
> kitchen (this is my rule in our house) and even then they are responsible
> for clearing their dishes and garbage.

Except in our house, the way it is set up, the dining room table has to go
in the living room. So they are eating at the table, except they haven't
been too good about cleaning up after themselves again. They have left all
of their stuff out and are not getting up and picking up after themselves.

>Some type of consequence can be set up if they don't. I would think that
maybe a >chore schedule charted out in a visible place might be helpful
also. That way they >know what is expected of them and if they don't do it
there is a consequence. Just a few ideas. HTH.

I had a chore chart and we got away from it. I guess it's time for me to get
back to that again. I guess my problem is today that they are off school and
nothing has been done. I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and help
and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with unless
I stand over them, like Marie said. Thanks.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Marie" > wrote in message
> You know, when I was their age (and I'm pretty sure you also), I was
> doing most of the housecleaning, and having to keep my bedroom
> spotless. Not because I wanted to, mind you!!

Yep, see I guess that's my problem. When I was growing up, my mom had a huge
garden that she tended to. I hated being outside, so it was our deal that I
kept the inside clean and she did the outside. I don't mind cleaning, but I
guess I resent having to pick up my kids messes and junk when I know they
are capable of it, they just don't care and that's what bothers me. I know
that they are capable of doing the things I ask. It's just a matter of
getting it done.

> So I have absolutely no advice for you, only commiseration. Send them
> to the meanest babysitter you can and do it all yourself :oP

LOL. Joel said yesterday that it was too bad we couldn't swap kids from a
more unfortunate family so that they could see just how good they have it.
Thanks for the commiseration. It helps.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Circe" > wrote in message
> Okay, right here is your problem. TALKING about it isn't working. You have
> to DO something about it.

Well I said talking because we had a family meeting a week or so ago and it
was brought up what we expected in our meeting. But, it doesn't seem to have
made an impact. So yes, action needs to be taken now.

> So, I'd recommend having a logical consequence for failing to pick up
after
> themselves. I think the logical consequence of not putting your things
back
> where they belong is that, the next time you want them, they won't be
where
> you think they ought to be. And being "in jail" is as good a place as any.

I can do that and have. I am more worried about their just throwing their
trash on the floor and not bothering to pick it up more than anything. Jenny
is into arts and crafts and right now she has all of her paintings on the
table and she just ends up leaving them there and not bothering to pick them
up. I don't know, the kids are not playing with their toys so I am to the
point where I am selling most of them in the garage sale. However, there is
just so much junk everywhere.

> I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes.

Hmmm, I just don't agree with this. We have some friends with five children
and dishes were done by the kids. They don't have a dishwasher, so it is
even more work for them. But, it was expected that since the parents cook,
the kids can clean up. This is a policy that I have also.

>We have a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many
> nights, but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they
get older,
> assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
> something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them because
I
> think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.

See, I don't think it's a big deal to have even the 8-year-old pick up her
dish, rinse it off and put it in the dishwasher. I can't even see it a
problem for them unloading the dishes. I just don't think I should solely be
responsible for all the dishes since they are the ones that use the most.

> Again, this is something I can't see myself ever delegating to the kids.
My
> parents did the laundry (all of it together) when we were kids and I think
> it's wasteful of water and electricity to wash small loads (which is what
> you inevitably end up with if everyone does his/her own laundry and has to
> wash once a week or so to have sufficient undergarments and socks). I will
> ultimately expect them to put their clothes away after it is laundered,
> however.

I was doing my own laundry at age ten. My 12 and 9-year-old did all the
laundry this weekend and that's because I told them I expected them to do it
while I worked on the house. I am torn on this though. They can do it, I
have shown them how and they have done a good job with it. We don't have
many things that could be ruined anyway, so that's not a concern. And I do
think that not washing a whole load would be a problem if each girl was
responsible for their own (I don't think the 8-year-old could do her own,
although she can put her stuff away). I am mainly concerned with the fact
that since my husband and I have been so busy getting the house ready to
sell, that they just haven't pitched in and helped us in any way and I think
that is my perspective being off.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

> What I did in the past when my ds was younger was to ban television,
> video games, friends, and toys if he didn't cooperate with me.
> If I had to pick up his junk, it disappeared for a while, and he had
> to earn it back.
>
> Nan

Thanks. I think I will let them know that they can't watch
TV/computer/keyboard until the place is picked up.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

Thanks for the book. I know I talk too much. It is a problem.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Stephanie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sue" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some
help/ideas
> > on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
> >
> > We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
> Despite
> > my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> > resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
> their
> > things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
> strewn
> > all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
> that
> > are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> > things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> > telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle
for
> > our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> > husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
> move.
> > I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to
leave
> > their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> > symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
> are
> > doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
> do.
> > I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
> own,
> > not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but
I
> > think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example,
today
> > they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the
morning
> > and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
> have
> > or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
> mention
> > this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
> Their
> > trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
> the
> > floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they
end
> up
> > doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have
done
> > nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age
to
> > care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep
the
> > house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you
do
> in
> > the same situation?
> > --
> > Sue (mom to three girls)
> >
> >
>
> I do not have kids your age at all. My kids are little. But I picked up
this
> book on someone's advice. And it speaks to your age kids too.
>
>
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761512128/qid=1110826543/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-2363937-9137640?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> It gives me a whole new perspective on Dorothy's comment about many people
> just talk too much. Anyway, it has a whole section on chores with a
> different spin for different ages.
>
> Good luck!
>
>

[Karen]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
do.
> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
> the same situation?
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)


My kids are younger, but we use 123Magic. We've come up with the following
for toy mess: They clean up their toys at ages 2 and 4 because if they
don't, anything on the floor goes into a trashbag for a specified (usually
2-3 days) amount of time. They have to earn a certain number of stars on
their incentive chart to get the things back. My 2 yo gets it enough, my 4
yo really gets it and busts his hiney to get everything picked up before the
timer goes off and everything left goes into the bag. You could have them
*earn* screentime (computer, games or TV) by doing things around the house.
Have an incentive chart and after a certain number of "things" done, they
get a certain amount of "screentime"...or something like that.
Alternatively, you could just take those things away if they DON'T do things
that you ask.

If I were in your shoes, I'd
1. assign specific chores to each kid
2. they are expected to do these things daily
a. when they do them, they earn a star
b. when they earn a certain number of stars, they earn a free pass for
30 minutes of screen time
3. when they DON'T do these things, they lose stars or passes or something
like that
4. start fining them: if YOU do something that one of them is supposed to
do, you charge them for your service....I don't know if you give allowance
or anything, but if you do, dock it until they start pulling their own
weight
5. Take everything that is laying around and put it in a trash bag and seal
it up for a certain amount of time....maybe forever MWAHHAHAHA

Just my $0.02

[Karen]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks for the book. I know I talk too much. It is a problem.


That's one of the things addressed in the 123Magic book as well. I can't
say too many good things about that book. most of the time we get to 1 and
they snap to shape. Fabulous, really.

[Circe]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> "Circe" > wrote in message
> > So, I'd recommend having a logical consequence for failing to pick up
> after
> > themselves. I think the logical consequence of not putting your things
> back
> > where they belong is that, the next time you want them, they won't be
> where
> > you think they ought to be. And being "in jail" is as good a place as
any.
>
> I can do that and have. I am more worried about their just throwing their
> trash on the floor and not bothering to pick it up more than anything.

That seems like an odd problem to me. My kids don't seem to generate much
"trash" in the classic sense. (School does it for them by sending home a
jillion pieces of paper in their folders every day, but that is a separate
issue <g>!) What kinds of trash are we talking about here?

> Jenny
> is into arts and crafts and right now she has all of her paintings on the
> table and she just ends up leaving them there and not bothering to pick
them
> up.

So the arts and crafts stuff goes in jail, n'est ce pas?

> I don't know, the kids are not playing with their toys so I am to the
> point where I am selling most of them in the garage sale. However, there
is
> just so much junk everywhere.
>
Oh, boy, would I like to join you in that! We have *soooooo* many toys in
this house. But my kids *do* still play with them. The clutter/junk makes me
nuts, though.

> > I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes.
>
> Hmmm, I just don't agree with this. We have some friends with five
children
> and dishes were done by the kids. They don't have a dishwasher, so it is
> even more work for them. But, it was expected that since the parents cook,
> the kids can clean up. This is a policy that I have also.
>
Well, I grew up in a house where one parent cooked and the other parent
cleaned up. Doesn't work quite that way in our household, since I usually
cook and do most of the cleaning up, but that's a function of my husband's
work schedule more than anything else.

> >We have a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it
many
> > nights, but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when
they
> > get older, assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a
> > rotation or something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up
to
> > them because I think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the
> > grown-ups.
>
> See, I don't think it's a big deal to have even the 8-year-old pick up her
> dish, rinse it off and put it in the dishwasher.

Oh, I don't think that's a big deal, either. OTOH, I am trying to imagine
what the situation in your house is like that it is a common affair for the
kids to be feeding themselves several times a day as opposed to everyone
having a meal together and cleaning it up together. That's more the way it
works in our house.

If my kids are home all day, we have breakfast together as a family, lunch
is usually prepared and supervised by an adult (though we may not *all* be
together), and dinner is together as a family. Snacks are generally not
things that require plates/dishes (they eat fruit, squeeze yogurts, cheese
sticks, etc.) so cleaning up after a snack is pretty straightforward most of
the time. (They don't always remember to throw away their garbage, but will
do so when reminded.)

> I can't even see it a
> problem for them unloading the dishes.

Well, I don't like it for kids under 7 or 8 for the simple reason that I
don't want them handling sharp knives and there are usually quite a few of
them in any dishwasher load. Plus, the shelves are high so they would have
to get a chair to put away a lot of stuff that's breakable (like glasses,
plates, etc.). The potential for mishaps just seems pretty significant to
me.

> I just don't think I should solely be
> responsible for all the dishes since they are the ones that use the most.
>
It's not so much being *solely* responsible for it as simply being around to
*remind* them to clean up after themselves after they finish eating. I just
can't think of many times when my kids are allowed to help themselves to
anything they want to eat without asking permission first, and since they
ask permission, they get several reminders to clean up after themselves.

But your kids are enough older than mine that my perspective on that may
change.

> I am mainly concerned with the fact
> that since my husband and I have been so busy getting the house ready to
> sell, that they just haven't pitched in and helped us in any way and I
think
> that is my perspective being off.
>
Well, I understand that you are feeling overwhelmed by everything you have
going on.

I don't know--my attitude towards chores is more collaborative than anything
else. I like for us to do things together. The kids *like* to help clearing
the plates from the table (or setting it) because we are all working
together to a collective goal. It feels less like "work" and more like "fun"
that way.

Of course, I also have a nanny/housekeeper (she is upstairs vacuuming right
now <g>), so I have someone cleaning up after *me*. Perhaps part of the
reason I am lenient when it comes to making the kids clean up after
themselves is that it seems vaguely hypocritical to demand of them what I do
not demand of myself <g>!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Peggy]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
do.
> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
> the same situation?
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)
>
>

Toys that aren't picked up & put away get thrown away at my house.

[Circe]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> I guess my problem is today that they are off school and
> nothing has been done. I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and
help
> and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with
unless
> I stand over them, like Marie said.

Well, in all fairness, why should their priorities be your priorities? The
reality is that they are kids and their world is very different from yours,
even though you all live in the same house.

Personally, I don't think you can expect kids to pitch in and help you
unless you give them specific instructions as to what you want them to do
and then provide incentives to get them to do it. The laundry just doesn't
matter to them like it matters to you. The dishes on the table don't matter
to them like they matter to you. And there isn't any particular reason that
you should expect otherwise.

So, you can't really tell them you want them to do certain things and then
just wait for them to decide they *want* to do them. Chances are high that
the time when they want to do those things won't ever come. So, you give
them tasks to do, check occasionally to be sure they're getting things done,
and tell them that when they're done, they can do their things
(computer/TV/whatever).
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Nikki]

Sue wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some
> help/ideas on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.

I don't know first hand about any of this stuff with mine being so little.
My cousin has three girls...all a bit older now but they moved down here
when they were all that age. *Terrible* mess they could make at that age so
you aren't alone ;-) I also remember being a teenager although I was quite
helpful until I was 16 or so...all down hill after that ;-)

I do know first hand exactly how stressful moving is and how stressful a
house in disarray from moving is. So I can sympathize with that. I'd say
that could cloud your perspective because things are already twice as
stressful, the kids aren't helping at all, and all the other stuff that goes
along with moving.

Try and accept that they aren't going to be helpful just for you, but try
not to take that personally ;-).

Some suggestions (from a mom of youg'ns) so take it fwiw -- not much!

Prioritize what you want help with and focus on that. If you simply can't
ignore it - don't make that the item you try to get them to do alone.

Dishes: Perhaps each girl would get assigned a night. That night she does
dishes while the others have some other assigned chore. Then stay in there
and do the dishes with them...trying to make pleasant conversation. My aunt
figured out how to get that to work with my cousins girls and they actually
grew to like dishes because they got the one:one chat with their grandma
(they were living with her). That worked up until the oldest got old enough
to not give a rip about one:one time anymore :-) I have a hard time leaving
a kitchen messy so I'd stay involved with this one so I wouldn't be put in
the position of ignoring something that was driving me banana's or going in
and re-doing it which would be a no-no. I'm pretty sure that was her deal
as well.

Laundry: Just let them do it and let them wear dirty clothes if they don't.
If you find it around the house - just haul it to their room and leave it.
In my aunts case she did the laundry and laid it on their bed. She left
them lists of things to do while she was at work. She actually had better
luck with them doing things when she wasn't home then when she was. They
fought (I'm sure that isn't a word - I mean fight only past tense ;-)
constantly and with enthusiasm so that was a bigger issue then the chores
for them.

I'd totally ignore their room.

I'd make a rule that there is no TV/Games until chores are done...or just
none of it until a certain time, without really attaching it to chores.

Do they get an allowance? You could pay for chores. I don't really like
that one and would probably do it is a last resort. You could also have
them earn points or something that they could cash in for an
item/activity/privilege.

Even now I have a rule that if it doesn't get picked up I will do it but
then whatever it is disappears for a day. I would make that a lot longer
then a day with older kids.

If it is really bad with just a lot of stuff needing to be picked up it
might be a bit overwhelming for kids. Maybe you could have a 20 minute
cleaning time. Everyone cleans for 15-20 minutes. Play music. Have 3 big
laundry baskets. One for putting things in that need to go upstairs, one
for garbage, one for items that need to go somewhere else. If the room is
actually picked up at the end of 20 minutes then you go do something of
their choosing. Then come back and deal with the baskets. I don't know if
that would work - just a suggestion to break it down into a more manageable
task.


> What would many of
> you do in the same situation?

Honestly, I'm dreading that whole stage :-P


--
Nikki

[Nikki]

Stephanie wrote:

> I do not have kids your age at all. My kids are little. But I picked
> up this book on someone's advice. And it speaks to your age kids too.
>
> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0761512128/qid=1110826543/sr=8-1/ref=pd_csp_1/002-2363937-9137640?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
>
> It gives me a whole new perspective on Dorothy's comment about many
> people just talk too much. Anyway, it has a whole section on chores
> with a different spin for different ages.


Oh - good tip. Thank you :-)

That author also has one called 'Setting Limits with your Strong Willed
Child' that I've been meaning to read.

--
Nikki

[tracert]

"Circe" > wrote in message
news:0slZd.5113$uk7.556@fed1read01...
>> dishes,
>
> I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes. We
> have
> a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many
> nights,
> but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they get
> older,
> assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
> something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them because
> I
> think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.
>
>> laundry (their own, not mine),
>
> Again, this is something I can't see myself ever delegating to the kids.
> My
> parents did the laundry (all of it together) when we were kids and I think
> it's wasteful of water and electricity to wash small loads (which is what
> you inevitably end up with if everyone does his/her own laundry and has to
> wash once a week or so to have sufficient undergarments and socks). I will
> ultimately expect them to put their clothes away after it is laundered,
> however.
>
> Now, I personally think it's reasonable to expect a 12yo to manage her own
> laundry if that's the way you want to handle things in your household. But
> I'm not sure about expecting that of either an 8 or 9yo. I'd be afraid
> they'd ruin their things by washing at the wrong temperature, with colors
> that run, or having them in too hot a dryer, and that would cost me in the
> long run. So I'd keep the kids' laundry to myself until they were closer
> to
> puberty, frankly.


My 15-year-old son has been doing his own laundry for about 2 years, and
does the dishes ( with dishwasher). The 11-year-old is perfectly capable of
doing the dishes (loading, and putting away). DH also does his own laundry.
Kids put away their own clean clothes.
I work FT and this is a HUGE help to me. With three boys and a DH we have
mountains of dishes and laundry.
I cook , dust , and usually one of the kids vacuums. I can't think of
anything they've ruined, but the time saved and the fact that I don't have
to do it would make it worthwhile.

[tracert]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
> move.


Use the move to your advantage. Get some big boxes, toss their junk into
it, tape it up, and put it in the garage. When you're in the new house, it
can be put away where it belongs, and you can start fresh with having a
place for everything and everything in it's place.

[Lesley]

I don't know. I think caring about your surroundings is partly either
you have it or don't, with a touch of growing into it. I'm not overly
neat by nature, though I'm much better now that I'm married to someone
who would like to live in a Southern Living model home.

I suspect talk is going to get you no where. How about just confiscate
whatever of their belongings are left in public space, pack them up for
the move. And as for dishes and stuff, I'd insisit that they be put
away as soon as they're used - going on to the next activity is not
allowed until basic cleanliness is achieved.

I know it's hard moving, especially since they don't want to. Best of luck.

Lesley

[Ericka Kammerer]

Sue wrote:

> Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings

No, it is absolutely reasonable for you to expect them to
take part in the work needed to keep the family going.

> or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help?

Absolutely not.

> What would many of you do in the same situation?

I would give them some very specific tasks and expect that
they were done. I'd start small (you're not going to get from no
responsibility to where you ought to be overnight). I would
have consequences for not doing the tasks. I would expect
myself to set a good example.
There are any number of consequences you can employ.
Probably the easiest is to insist that their tasks get done
before they're allowed to do anything else optional. Also,
don't start out by saying their task for the day is to clean
up all their stuff. That may be overwhelming for them, and
you'll spend all day with them coming and asking you if they've
done enough and saying that everything that's left is someone
else's problem. Set a specific goal that's achievable in
15-30 minutes of concentrated effort. If that doesn't
finish the job, then they go at it for another 15-30 minutes
the next day. You might start them out on 15 minutes of
clearing backlog every day plus a specific chore (dishes,
laundry, sweeping, dusting, mopping, bathroom, whatever).
Another thing that sometimes helps is to have the whole
family clean together. Tell them that everyone's going to
clean for the next hour and pass out jobs. Once the job
is finished, you grab the next job until the hour is up.
In my experience, many kids don't naturally clean
up, especially if you don't set a really good example.
They might notice and pick up after themselves if their
stuff is the only blemish in an otherwise pristine
and uncluttered environment, but otherwise, it's a
tough slog. You have to be ruthlessly consistent
in requiring that they clean up every day. After
a while (maybe a long while) they'll start to do
it more automatically, and they'll start to do it
bit by bit so they don't have so much to do at the end
of the day.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Ericka Kammerer]

Circe wrote:

> I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes. We have
> a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many nights,
> but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they get older,
> assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
> something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them because I
> think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.

Really?! I know that my sister and I were rotating nights
doing dishes (without a dishwasher) in grade school, with nary
a problem (and the occasional use of a stool). Later on, we had
dishwashers, but with Grandma's cooking, there was plenty that
didn't fit in the dishwasher after dinner. We alternated nights
clearing the table, stacking the dishwasher, washing the remaining
dishes, and wiping down the counters and such. Whoever wasn't on
dish duty was usually on call to help set the table and make a
salad or something. I don't necessarily think that all kids must
do dishes, but I don't see any problem with them doing dishes by
nine or ten years old.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Circe]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> Circe wrote:
> > I don't now (and don't expect later) to have the kids do the dishes. We
have
> > a dishwasher and they *do* help me clear the table and load it many
nights,
> > but they do that purely on their own initiative. I may, when they get
older,
> > assign one of them to help me clean up after meals on a rotation or
> > something, but it's not something I'd ever leave solely up to them
because I
> > think of the kitchen as largely the responsibility of the grown-ups.
>
> Really?! I know that my sister and I were rotating nights
> doing dishes (without a dishwasher) in grade school, with nary
> a problem (and the occasional use of a stool). Later on, we had
> dishwashers, but with Grandma's cooking, there was plenty that
> didn't fit in the dishwasher after dinner. We alternated nights
> clearing the table, stacking the dishwasher, washing the remaining
> dishes, and wiping down the counters and such. Whoever wasn't on
> dish duty was usually on call to help set the table and make a
> salad or something. I don't necessarily think that all kids must
> do dishes, but I don't see any problem with them doing dishes by
> nine or ten years old.

Well, I don't say I don't expect them to do the washing up after dinner
because I don't think they *could*. (Now, no. They break too many
glasses/dishes as it is. The last thing I need or want right now is them
trying to put them away on high shelves while standing on chairs!) I just
don't find it particularly *desirable* that they do, even when they'd
clearly be capable of it.

It's probably a simple hangover from my childhood. My parents did not expect
us to cook or to clean up after dinner. The most we were generally expected
to do was to set the table. That was "our" part of the job (and we didn't
even always do it). The rest of the job was a grown-up job: one parent
cooks, one parent cleans up. That's not to say we never pitched in and
helped out when our help was needed or requested, but that it simply was not
part of the expectation.

In my household now, cleaning up after dinner is more of a communal affair.
The kids will often load their own dishes into the dishwasher, though I
don't require it of them. On the whole, I'd prefer to do it myself or have
my husband do it than expect the kids to do it if they don't want to help. I
don't have a rational explanation for why that is so; it just is.

And the fact that I didn't have to do the dishes as a kid doesn't appear to
have negatively affected my ability to do them now that I'm the grown-up and
it's my job, so I'm not particularly sold on the notion that if I don't make
them do it now as a regular chore, they'll be incompetent at it as adults.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Kelly]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...

> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do in
> the same situation?

When my sister and I were your girls age, we had to help Mum clean up. Saturday
mornings was housework day, if we didn't help we didn't go to our sport or see
our friends that weekend.. She followed through with the threat, it only took us
one attempt, before we knew she was serious.. We also had to wash up together -
one wash and one wipe, help fold the laundry and put ours away.. Our rooms were
messy, and once a fortnight, Mum would make us clean it properly ie not hide
things in the wardrobe or under the bed..

I think they should be able to help you and it isn't unreasonable that they
would..
--
Kelly
Mummy to Emily (12 Aug 01) and Isabella (5 Dec 02)

[Ericka Kammerer]

Circe wrote:

> And the fact that I didn't have to do the dishes as a kid doesn't appear to
> have negatively affected my ability to do them now that I'm the grown-up and
> it's my job, so I'm not particularly sold on the notion that if I don't make
> them do it now as a regular chore, they'll be incompetent at it as adults.

Oh, I don't think that's the rationale for doing it, nor do I
think that all kids must do dishes (in the way that I think all kids
must eventually get to the point of picking up after themselves). I
just wouldn't have any hesitation to assign it as a chore after they
were old enough. It is a relatively handy chore to assign--it happens
every night, it's a relatively short span of time, happens when the
kids are home, etc.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Circe]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> Circe wrote:
> > And the fact that I didn't have to do the dishes as a kid doesn't appear
to
> > have negatively affected my ability to do them now that I'm the grown-up
and
> > it's my job, so I'm not particularly sold on the notion that if I don't
make
> > them do it now as a regular chore, they'll be incompetent at it as
adults.
>
> Oh, I don't think that's the rationale for doing it, nor do I
> think that all kids must do dishes (in the way that I think all kids
> must eventually get to the point of picking up after themselves). I
> just wouldn't have any hesitation to assign it as a chore after they
> were old enough. It is a relatively handy chore to assign--it happens
> every night, it's a relatively short span of time, happens when the
> kids are home, etc.

Oh, yeah, I totally see that perspective.

I suppose another thing that factors into the equation in our household is
that dinner is so late (because my husband doesn't get home from work until
7ish) that by the time we finish eating and are cleaning up, it's time for
the kids to start getting ready for bed. I can't really imagine leaving one
of them to do the cleaning up by him or herself when the task is often not
even starting until 8:00 or so and their bedtime (at least right now) needs
to be no later than 8:30.

Maybe when my husband's commute becomes more reasonable (next year when his
office moves), assigning the cleaning up will seem more rational because
we'll be *finshing* dinner at 7ish instead of starting it then!

But I have seen the claim made that if parents don't make children do things
like clean up after dinner or do the laundry, the children will never be
competent at doing it in adulthood. Which is why I brought that up.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[[email protected]]

Sounds to me like you collectively have Too Much Stuff. You watch any
of those sell your house shows, step one is always decluttering. Use
the opportunity of a looming move to do a disciplined prune of the junk
y'all own. Not only will it help you sell your house, but it helps with
housework.

In recent years, I've done some extensive cleaning out - where we
sorted, and kept only what we loved, used and really needed, pitched
the junk, and donated or sold the rest. You'll feel like the weight of
the world is off you, and holy cow, does it make keeping the house
clean and tidy EASY. Its the junk piled in every corner, the tchochkas,
the books and magazines, the stacks of games no one plays, the closets
stuffed with - that's what makes it overwhelming to keep things
organized and neat.

Mary G.
Mom of three (14, 11 and 7)

[Ericka Kammerer]

Circe wrote:


> But I have seen the claim made that if parents don't make children do things
> like clean up after dinner or do the laundry, the children will never be
> competent at doing it in adulthood. Which is why I brought that up.

I think that applies to some things more than others. Some
housekeeping things require more skill than others (with dishes being
pretty low on the totem pole). Some things require the discipline of
habit (e.g., picking up after yourself) and should therefore be
encouraged from the earliest practical time just to help establish
the habit. Most cleaning isn't rocket science, and I doubt that anyone
who was really motivated to get something clean would be incapable
of figuring it out ;-) On the other hand, I think there's something
to the argument that someone whose never had to lift a finger to
help out in the house or pick up after him- or herself is less
likely to suddenly turn over a new leaf upon leaving home. It's
not so much which specific chores the person does as it is the
fact that the person has gotten the message that chipping in is
part of family life. And I also think that for *some* people,
it helps to demystify procedures. I think most folks who whine,
"But I don't know *hoooooowwww* to do laundry" are just avoiding
it, but for a few, they think it's some sort of black magic and
they'll screw everything up if they attempt it. A few rounds of
laundry before they go out into the world usually helps this
sort of person. Adrian's like that. I swear he wouldn't blow
his nose if it were running down his face if someone hadn't
walked him through it first ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

[animzmirot]

IIRC, in discussions regarding chores for kids, you've always been on the
side of not asking much of your kids and not supporting chores for children.
Am I correct here?

If so, then you did sort of set yourself up for this problem by not asking
much of them until you needed them to cooperate. I do have kids your age,
and we've recently moved into a new home, and my kids helped because if they
didn't, there were consequences. Each child packed up their own room with an
adult, but they went through their stuff, threw out what they didn't
need/want, sorted thru the clothing to give it to charity, and cleaned up
their messes in other public spaces because there was no choice in the
matter. Everything that was left out, especially on the repository formerly
known as 'the stairs', got tossed. I gave them absolutely no choice in the
matter, if it was left, it was thrown out. Period.

One of the things I did to make the move easier was to leave all the packing
(and I mean ALL the packing) until the last two days before the movers
arrived. We sorted through stuff for weeks, and we threw out piles and piles
of crud every week, but the packing was all left for the weekend before the
movers arrived. I hired some college students to come and pack for us, paid
them a small wage ($12/hour) and had the whole house, which is 3 bedrooms, a
den, kit, lvr, dr, and 3 baths) packed in about 14 hours. It made it much
easier, each family member was assigned a room to work in with a college
packer, and the house was packed in a jiffy. The kids had someone new and
interesting to talk to as they worked, and they had supervision 1:1 with an
adult that ensured that they were working.

As for keeping the house clean whilst it was being shown, the best thing I
can recommend is to pare down to almost nothing what you leave out. In CA,
people 'stage' houses to sell them and that means that the stagers come and
remove pretty much all of your personal belongings you don't absolutely need
and put them in storage. If your house is overwhelmingly filled with junk,
it probably has too much junk to being with, and the best thing you can do
is work room by room to clean out everything you don't absolutely need and
put it in storage or at least pack it away or throw it out. Work with your
girls individually to clear out the crap, and then designate areas that they
can leave stuff, and make sure that it's left ONLY there. Tag and tow if you
have to, but make them take responsibility for losing a beloved book or toy.

Finally, you need to sit down and talk to your kids about how you're a
family where everyone has to pitch in and help out. Even if they don't want
to move (and who does, after all?), recognize with them that moving is
exceptionally stressful, second only to death on the stress-o-meter, and
that you need them to cooperate and be helpful to keep everyone healthy
because stress is such a arbitor of illness. Don't let the conversation
drift into why they don't want to move, it's not their choice. They're kids
and adults make this type of decision, not kids. But you have to get them on
your side and excited about helping and cooperating, even if it takes
bribary and coercion to get them involved.

Moving sucks, and having kids who sabotage the effort really isn't a good
thing. It's up to you and your spouse to make sure that your kids understand
how important it is for everyone to buy into this effort. And once you move,
MAKE THEM DO CHORES so you don't end up in this situation in the future.

Good luck,

Marjorie
"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
do.
> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
in
> the same situation?
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)
>
>

[Ericka Kammerer]

animzmirot wrote:

> As for keeping the house clean whilst it was being shown, the best thing I
> can recommend is to pare down to almost nothing what you leave out. In CA,
> people 'stage' houses to sell them and that means that the stagers come and
> remove pretty much all of your personal belongings you don't absolutely need
> and put them in storage.

PODS (and probably some other places as well) will bring a
storage unit to your house and park it in your yard so you can put
stuff in it. When you're done, they'll relocate it to the new
house. That can be a lot easier than schlepping stuff to an
offsite storage unit when you're already up to your eyeballs
in things to do.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Jeff]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
> Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
> their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
> strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
> that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable.

It seems to me that the cure for this is to clean up their messes. Into the
garbage can. And don't buy new stuff. Either everything of theirs will be in
the trash or they will learn to clean up.

Either way, problem solved.

> We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
> move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
> are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
> do.

They are preteens. That is their job.

> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
> own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
> have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
> mention
> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
> Their
> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
> the
> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
> up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
> in
> the same situation?

Don't clean the dishes. Make sure there are two sets of clean dishes, forks,
etc., for you and your husband. the rest is their problem.

It seems to me that you are enabling the kids to be pigs, and they are doing
what they are supposed to do: Take advantage of you.

I think you need to have a family meeting. At the family meeting, you need
to go over:

1) You are preparing the house for sale. The house has to be really clean,
inside and out. You will help the kids clean up, but they have to pick up
afterselves. Picking up includes rinsing off dirty dishes and putting them
in the dishwasher, putting their toys away, taking care of their clothes and
keeping their rooms clean.

2) When you get to your new home, you will keep it nice and clean. They will
have to do #1.

3) the penalty for not doing #1 and #2 is that the offending toys will go
into a bin until the second saturday after you put them there. They can
have back after that. If they continue to not pick up, the bin that they
will go into is the garbage bin (or to charity). THey won;t get them back.

4) In addition, if they don't what is expected of them, they are grounded
and don't get an allowance.

make it stick.

Jeff

> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)
>
>

[Jeff]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sue" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some
>> help/ideas
>> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>>
>> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
>> Despite
>> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
>> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
>> their
>> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
>> strewn
>> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
>> that
>> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
>> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
>> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle
>> for
>> our house to look presentable.
>
> It seems to me that the cure for this is to clean up their messes. Into
> the garbage can. And don't buy new stuff. Either everything of theirs will
> be in the trash or they will learn to clean up.
>
> Either way, problem solved.
>
>> We are in the process of moving, and my
>> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
>> move.
>> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to
>> leave
>> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
>> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
>> are
>> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
>> do.
>
> They are preteens. That is their job.
>
>> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
>> own,
>> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but I
>> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example,
>> today
>> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the morning
>> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
>> have
>> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
>> mention
>> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
>> Their
>> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all over
>> the
>> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end
>> up
>> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have done
>> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age
>> to
>> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep the
>> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you do
>> in
>> the same situation?
>
> Don't clean the dishes. Make sure there are two sets of clean dishes,
> forks, etc., for you and your husband. the rest is their problem.
>
> It seems to me that you are enabling the kids to be pigs, and they are
> doing what they are supposed to do: Take advantage of you.
>
> I think you need to have a family meeting. At the family meeting, you need
> to go over:
>
> 1) You are preparing the house for sale. The house has to be really clean,
> inside and out. You will help the kids clean up, but they have to pick up
> afterselves. Picking up includes rinsing off dirty dishes and putting them
> in the dishwasher, putting their toys away, taking care of their clothes
> and keeping their rooms clean.
>
> 2) When you get to your new home, you will keep it nice and clean. They
> will have to do #1.
>
> 3) the penalty for not doing #1 and #2 is that the offending toys will go
> into a bin until the second saturday after you put them there. They can
> have back after that. If they continue to not pick up, the bin that they
> will go into is the garbage bin (or to charity). THey won;t get them
> back.
>
> 4) In addition, if they don't what is expected of them, they are grounded
> and don't get an allowance.

5) When the do what it is expected of them (especially, when it is something
extra like keeping the house really clean), they get a treat. Maybe you can
take them to a movie (robots in Imax is supposed to be really cool) or take
them to their favorate restaurant or take them to the local Y and each kid
gets one or two friends along. And, of course, they get their allowances.

The key is:
> make it stick.
>
> Jeff
>
>> --
>> Sue (mom to three girls)
>>
>>
>
>

[Laura Faussone]

animzmirot wrote:

> IIRC, in discussions regarding chores for kids, you've always been on the
> side of not asking much of your kids and not supporting chores for children.
> Am I correct here?

I think that was Sharon, but I may be mistaken.

Laura

[Sue]

"Circe" > wrote in message news:rAmZd.5118
> That seems like an odd problem to me. My kids don't seem to generate much
> "trash" in the classic sense. (School does it for them by sending home a
> jillion pieces of paper in their folders every day, but that is a separate
> issue <g>!) What kinds of trash are we talking about here?

If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc ....... When they color,
the pieces of paper stay on the floor or table. Tissues are left. I am after
them all day to pick this stuff up, of course, but it floors me that they
feel that they can do this stuff. Basically, they are pretty messy.

> Oh, I don't think that's a big deal, either. OTOH, I am trying to imagine
> what the situation in your house is like that it is a common affair for
the
> kids to be feeding themselves several times a day as opposed to everyone
> having a meal together and cleaning it up together. That's more the way it
> works in our house.

Well if it is a school day, I make them breakfast and they clear their
plates. Lunch is at school and dinner is at home and they clear their stuff.
It mostly happens on weekends and days off of school, like today. When they
are off of school, they each sleep in and when they get up, they make their
own bowl of cereal or bagel. We don't typically eat together when they are
home, except for dinner. There are times when I make lunch when they are
home and we eat together, but it's pretty rare. On weekends, it's mostly a
fend for yourself type of thing, except for dinner.

>I just can't think of many times when my kids are allowed to help
themselves to
> anything they want to eat without asking permission first, and since they
> ask permission, they get several reminders to clean up after themselves.

Well since my kids are older, they don't need my permission to eat. The only
thing they have to ask me for is candy. Since I work at home and I am often
in the office, I don't always see what mess they make until I come out. Then
of course, I remind them. But, I really want them to take the intiative to
do it themselves and that's where I think my perspective is off.

> Of course, I also have a nanny/housekeeper (she is upstairs vacuuming
right
> now <g>), so I have someone cleaning up after *me*. Perhaps part of the
> reason I am lenient when it comes to making the kids clean up after
> themselves is that it seems vaguely hypocritical to demand of them what I
do
> not demand of myself <g>!

Well I don't have a cleaning person and it's either me doing all the work or
expecting some help from them. I would say that 95% of the mess is theirs
and I would hope that one day this will click that they need to start
picking up after themselves. I am tired of having to be on top of them. I
had thought they were old enough to know this stuff by now, but perhaps not.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

You're right, I have a ton of stuff and yes I am in the process of getting
rid of it. I'm overwhelmed, I can imagine that the kids are too. I want to
have a garage sale and sell most of everything ;o). The weather has not
cooperated yet though. I have no place to put the junk yet and right now
everything is cluttered. I do think the move is what is really stressing me
out. I had gotten out of the chore list and working at a certain time
everyday together to get things done. I see that I need to reinstitute that
again. Today was just a really bad day with getting nothing done this
weekend (except for the painting) and everything was a disaster. I am sure
that is why I feel so crabby today.
Thanks for putting things in perspective again for me.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Sounds to me like you collectively have Too Much Stuff. You watch any
> of those sell your house shows, step one is always decluttering. Use
> the opportunity of a looming move to do a disciplined prune of the junk
> y'all own. Not only will it help you sell your house, but it helps with
> housework.
>
> In recent years, I've done some extensive cleaning out - where we
> sorted, and kept only what we loved, used and really needed, pitched
> the junk, and donated or sold the rest. You'll feel like the weight of
> the world is off you, and holy cow, does it make keeping the house
> clean and tidy EASY. Its the junk piled in every corner, the tchochkas,
> the books and magazines, the stacks of games no one plays, the closets
> stuffed with - that's what makes it overwhelming to keep things
> organized and neat.
>
> Mary G.
> Mom of three (14, 11 and 7)
>

[Sue]

"animzmirot" > wrote in message
...
> IIRC, in discussions regarding chores for kids, you've always been on the
> side of not asking much of your kids and not supporting chores for
children.
> Am I correct here?

No, that wasn't me. I ask a lot of my kids. They just don't cooperate. ;o)
I used to have a chore list and we had gotten very good at getting things
done. I had and still have problems getting my 8-year-old to help, but she
is making progress.

> One of the things I did to make the move easier was to leave all the
packing
> (and I mean ALL the packing) until the last two days before the movers
> arrived.

Hmm, I don't know about that. I have done that in the past and it seemed
more stressful for me to do it that way. I had wanted to go room by room and
make three piles, keep, sell and throw away. The stuff that wasn't going to
be needed between now and the move was going to get packed. I had thought it
would make the process easier and make the house look less cluttered while
we had people coming in.

> Moving sucks, and having kids who sabotage the effort really isn't a good
> thing. It's up to you and your spouse to make sure that your kids
understand
> how important it is for everyone to buy into this effort. And once you
move,
> MAKE THEM DO CHORES so you don't end up in this situation in the future.

Thanks so much Marjorie, I needed the pep talk. I will try to get the girls
on board with this move and getting their help. I have let things slide in
the past few months.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

Thanks Jeff. You have great ideas. I do need to have some consequences and
that is what is holding me back. :o)
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Sue" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> Hi everyone,
> >>
> >> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some
> >> help/ideas
> >> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
> >>
> >> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
> >> Despite
> >> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> >> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
> >> their
> >> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
> >> strewn
> >> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
> >> that
> >> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> >> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> >> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle
> >> for
> >> our house to look presentable.
> >
> > It seems to me that the cure for this is to clean up their messes. Into
> > the garbage can. And don't buy new stuff. Either everything of theirs
will
> > be in the trash or they will learn to clean up.
> >
> > Either way, problem solved.
> >
> >> We are in the process of moving, and my
> >> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
> >> move.
> >> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to
> >> leave
> >> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> >> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that
they
> >> are
> >> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
> >> do.
> >
> > They are preteens. That is their job.
> >
> >> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry (their
> >> own,
> >> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today, but
I
> >> think these skills are useful for when they are grown). For example,
> >> today
> >> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the
morning
> >> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that we
> >> have
> >> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
> >> mention
> >> this morning that I would like their help. Most of the mess is theirs.
> >> Their
> >> trash that they don't pick up, dishes that they have used, toys all
over
> >> the
> >> floor. I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they
end
> >> up
> >> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have
done
> >> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this age
> >> to
> >> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep
the
> >> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of you
do
> >> in
> >> the same situation?
> >
> > Don't clean the dishes. Make sure there are two sets of clean dishes,
> > forks, etc., for you and your husband. the rest is their problem.
> >
> > It seems to me that you are enabling the kids to be pigs, and they are
> > doing what they are supposed to do: Take advantage of you.
> >
> > I think you need to have a family meeting. At the family meeting, you
need
> > to go over:
> >
> > 1) You are preparing the house for sale. The house has to be really
clean,
> > inside and out. You will help the kids clean up, but they have to pick
up
> > afterselves. Picking up includes rinsing off dirty dishes and putting
them
> > in the dishwasher, putting their toys away, taking care of their clothes
> > and keeping their rooms clean.
> >
> > 2) When you get to your new home, you will keep it nice and clean. They
> > will have to do #1.
> >
> > 3) the penalty for not doing #1 and #2 is that the offending toys will
go
> > into a bin until the second saturday after you put them there. They can
> > have back after that. If they continue to not pick up, the bin that they
> > will go into is the garbage bin (or to charity). THey won;t get them
> > back.
> >
> > 4) In addition, if they don't what is expected of them, they are
grounded
> > and don't get an allowance.
>
> 5) When the do what it is expected of them (especially, when it is
something
> extra like keeping the house really clean), they get a treat. Maybe you
can
> take them to a movie (robots in Imax is supposed to be really cool) or
take
> them to their favorate restaurant or take them to the local Y and each kid
> gets one or two friends along. And, of course, they get their allowances.
>
> The key is:
> > make it stick.
> >
> > Jeff
> >
> >> --
> >> Sue (mom to three girls)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>

[Circe]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> "Circe" > wrote in message news:rAmZd.5118
> > That seems like an odd problem to me. My kids don't seem to generate
much
> > "trash" in the classic sense. (School does it for them by sending home a
> > jillion pieces of paper in their folders every day, but that is a
separate
> > issue <g>!) What kinds of trash are we talking about here?
>
> If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
> stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc .......

Okay, well, I think if if that were happening in my house, I'd stop letting
them have those things as snacks.

> When they color,
> the pieces of paper stay on the floor or table.

No more coloring, then?

> Tissues are left.

Oops, can't help ya there! Can't exactly have them stop blowing their noses,
eh?

> I am after
> them all day to pick this stuff up, of course, but it floors me that they
> feel that they can do this stuff. Basically, they are pretty messy.
>
Yeah, that seems pretty bad. I have to remind my kids when they get a snack
that will result in trash to throw away the trash. And if they have runny
noses, I do sometimes wind up picking up the tissues. But it's not a huge
issue for us.

> > Oh, I don't think that's a big deal, either. OTOH, I am trying to
imagine
> > what the situation in your house is like that it is a common affair for
the
> > kids to be feeding themselves several times a day as opposed to everyone
> > having a meal together and cleaning it up together. That's more the way
it
> > works in our house.
>
> Well if it is a school day, I make them breakfast and they clear their
> plates. Lunch is at school and dinner is at home and they clear their
stuff.
> It mostly happens on weekends and days off of school, like today. When
they
> are off of school, they each sleep in and when they get up, they make
their
> own bowl of cereal or bagel. We don't typically eat together when they are
> home, except for dinner. There are times when I make lunch when they are
> home and we eat together, but it's pretty rare. On weekends, it's mostly a
> fend for yourself type of thing, except for dinner.
>
<Nods> And I can see why you'd do that, especially when you're working or
busy getting ready to move. But I do think the only logical consequence for
their not picking up after making their own meals/getting their own snacks
is to not let them make their own meals/get their own snacks any more. In
other words, you make them wait to eat until *you're* able to feed them.
They may well find that inconvenient enough that they'll shape up.

> Well I don't have a cleaning person and it's either me doing all the work
or
> expecting some help from them. I would say that 95% of the mess is theirs
> and I would hope that one day this will click that they need to start
> picking up after themselves. I am tired of having to be on top of them. I
> had thought they were old enough to know this stuff by now, but perhaps
not.

I am chuckling a little bit to myself at this, because I remember how it
drove my father absolutely nuts that I *never* hung my wet towels back up in
the bathroom. He was after me constantly to hang up my towels, I think until
I moved out of the house to go to college. (Making my bed was another sore
spot, too, although I think that annoyed my mom more than my dad.) Really,
it wasn't that I had any particular desire to irritate him by leaving my
towels in damp puddles; I'd just get busy and forget. And I honestly STILL
forget to put things away because I get side-tracked. I am easy to
side-track!

But, I'm pretty good now about hanging up my towels and am like my mom now
in that the beds must be made or it is a Very Bad Day(TM). So I did outgrow
it eventually.

I guess what I'm getting is that maybe they still *are* too young to
remember to do this stuff without you riding them. Especially if they really
haven't had to deal with any serious negative consequences of the failure to
pick up after themselves up to now. (I think the towel thing made my dad
particularly nuts because he couldn't come up with a good, logical
consequence for it. What was he going to do--tell his teenager not to take
showers any more?)
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[toto]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 19:07:50 -0500, "Sue"
> wrote:

>"Circe" > wrote in message news:rAmZd.5118
>> That seems like an odd problem to me. My kids don't seem to generate much
>> "trash" in the classic sense. (School does it for them by sending home a
>> jillion pieces of paper in their folders every day, but that is a separate
>> issue <g>!) What kinds of trash are we talking about here?
>
>If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
>stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc ....... When they color,
>the pieces of paper stay on the floor or table. Tissues are left. I am after
>them all day to pick this stuff up, of course, but it floors me that they
>feel that they can do this stuff. Basically, they are pretty messy.

Try a few things that are a bit different with this problem.

First of all, as always, model the behavior you want them to display.
Make sure that *you* and hubby always throw away your trash
when you are eating, immediately after you finish.

Next.
Instead of saying *throw away your candy wrapper* or *clean up
that yogurt lid,*

Describe what you see without commenting on what they should
do. Say *I see a candy wrapper on the floor* or *there's a dirty
yogurt lid on the table.*

Give information: *That yogurt lid is getting the table messy.*

Say it with only one or two words: *The candy wrapper* or *the
yogurt lid.*

Describe what you feel: *I don't like seeing a dirty table when I
come out of the office.*

Wrtie a note: *Please pick me up and put me in the trash so that
the floor will be clean.*

You may find that these kinds of tactics will engage their cooperation
much more than nagging them to do what you want them to do.

*************
As parents, I do think we all talk way to much, so it can really help
if we put things in writing (that way you only tell the kids ONCE).

And you can make it fun too.

One example: One mom who wanted the kids to put their toys
away, wrote a note on a piece of paper that said *Toys away,
after play* and made it into a paper airplane. She threw the
paper airplane into the kids room. They read it and went to put
the toys away quite quickly.

************
Another idea is to give the kids choices, but to make sure that
you can follow through on the consequences if they choose
not to clean up.

As others have suggested, if they will not put away their toys,
the toys can go into *jail* for a period of time. I would really do
this with the art things because it seems that the mess is not
being cleaned up. Since your dd loves to do art, I would think
that one day without any of the materials would probably convince
her that she needs to clean up the mess when she is done.

Good luck with all of this. Moving is a stressful time and since
the kids really don't want to go, they are probably resisting with
their behavior. Obviously they cannot choose for the family to
stay in your present home, so...

If you can, try taking them to the new area for a visit soon. If they
can see good things about the area, that might help them deal
with the fact that they are going to move no matter what. Talk
to them about staying in touch with friends through email and
chat. Talk to them about the new schools and new activities that
they can do when they get to the new location. You may want to
find some books about moving on their level. You can read to
them even though they are old enough to read for themselves.
If you can get some good books about the area you are moving
to that might help. And books about making friends in new places
may help too.







--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Stephanie]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Sounds to me like you collectively have Too Much Stuff. You watch any
> of those sell your house shows, step one is always decluttering. Use
> the opportunity of a looming move to do a disciplined prune of the junk
> y'all own. Not only will it help you sell your house, but it helps with
> housework.
>
> In recent years, I've done some extensive cleaning out - where we
> sorted, and kept only what we loved, used and really needed, pitched
> the junk, and donated or sold the rest. You'll feel like the weight of
> the world is off you, and holy cow, does it make keeping the house
> clean and tidy EASY. Its the junk piled in every corner, the tchochkas,
> the books and magazines, the stacks of games no one plays, the closets
> stuffed with - that's what makes it overwhelming to keep things
> organized and neat.
>

Flylady recommends singing "Please release me, let me go; for you don't love
me anymore!" This is from the point of view of the item you are deciding to
keep or five away.

> Mary G.
> Mom of three (14, 11 and 7)
>

[Penny Gaines]

Sue wrote:

> "Circe" > wrote in message news:rAmZd.5118
>> That seems like an odd problem to me. My kids don't seem to generate much
>> "trash" in the classic sense. (School does it for them by sending home a
>> jillion pieces of paper in their folders every day, but that is a
>> separate issue <g>!) What kinds of trash are we talking about here?
>
> If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
> stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc ....... When they color,
> the pieces of paper stay on the floor or table. Tissues are left. I am
> after them all day to pick this stuff up, of course, but it floors me that
> they feel that they can do this stuff. Basically, they are pretty messy.

How easy is it for them to chuck rubbish out? My children aren't perfect,
but they put most of their rubbish in the waste-paper bin that is in each
room. I can imagine that if they had to go all the way to the kitchen, they
would leave a lot more stuff out.

Another option for a quick clear up is to give them a small rubbish bag (we
use plastic shopping bags, that come free with groceries), and tell them to
keep filling it until the room is done, or the bag is full.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[hobbes]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...

>I am mainly concerned with the fact
> that since my husband and I have been so busy getting the house ready to
> sell, that they just haven't pitched in and helped us in any way and I
think
> that is my perspective being off.


A number of years ago, I was a house parent to a group of 18-20 year olds
who were doing voluntary service in our community (it was a missions thing).
These were kids who were raised in good homes, had done well in high school
and were looking for some life experience before going to college. I would
have thought that by their age they would have been quick to help around the
house and to jump in when they saw I could use help with something. Out of
two groups (total of 10 kids), only 1 person was like that--she was a dream.
The others were so self-absorbed, I honestly think they never even noticed.
Now, when we had jobs that were scheduled, they did what they had to do, but
when it came to basic clean-up-after-yourself stuff, they were horrible.

We moved at one point, and I was the only person out of a house of 6 who did
any packing. They would actually sit on the couch and watch me lugging boxes
around. I had to specifically ask them to do a specific job before I got any
sort of help. (Please take this box and pack those books into it and then
stack it over here.)

I guess I'm just trying to tell you that it's normal--even almost-adults
don't always notice how hard you're working and how nice it would be if they
would help. I think they get so wrapped up in their own experience they
simply don't think about what anyone else is experiencing, unless you hit
them over the head with it. It's aggravating, but if you want them to pitch
in, I think you're going to have to ask them for it.

I remember when we were younger and my mom worked during the summer, she'd
give us a list of things she'd like us to do that day. We liked that,
because we could do it on our own time (mainly 15 minutes before she got
home). Would it work for you to do something like that?

--
Jodi
SAHM to Oliver (4 years)
and Arwen (23 months)

[[email protected]]

hobbes wrote:

> I guess I'm just trying to tell you that it's normal--even
almost-adults
> don't always notice how hard you're working and how nice it would be
if they
> would help. I think they get so wrapped up in their own experience
they
> simply don't think about what anyone else is experiencing, unless you
hit
> them over the head with it. It's aggravating, but if you want them to
pitch
> in, I think you're going to have to ask them for it.

I wanted to chime in - I was a slob as a pre-teen, a slob as a teen,
and now as an adult I'm *still* a slob. The thing that finally made a
difference to me was living with peers in an apartment, because even
slobs have things that they care about finding in the right places and
messes they find intolerable, and I started to understand how annoying
it was. It didn't change my essential nature (my husband would love to
know how to get *me* to pick up all my toys and trash!) but I'm at
least willing to try and be apologetic when I fail.

Basically, as a kid, I absolutely did not get my mother's perspective
on any of this, and there was just no chance I was going to clean up
out of the goodness of my heart. :-) Taking stuff away or limiting
privileges got me to do it, although not without a lot of moaning and
groaning.

Beth

[Karen]

> Well, in all fairness, why should their priorities be your priorities? The
> reality is that they are kids and their world is very different from
yours,
> even though you all live in the same house.
>
> Personally, I don't think you can expect kids to pitch in and help you
> unless you give them specific instructions as to what you want them to do
> and then provide incentives to get them to do it. The laundry just doesn't
> matter to them like it matters to you. The dishes on the table don't
matter
> to them like they matter to you. And there isn't any particular reason
that
> you should expect otherwise.
>
> So, you can't really tell them you want them to do certain things and then
> just wait for them to decide they *want* to do them. Chances are high that
> the time when they want to do those things won't ever come. So, you give
> them tasks to do, check occasionally to be sure they're getting things
done,
> and tell them that when they're done, they can do their things
> (computer/TV/whatever).
> --
> Be well, Barbara
> Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)
>
> I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)
>

I agree. It's the same with DH. What's a priority to one of us isn't
necessarily a priority to the other. Good point.

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"Sue" > wrote in message
...
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.
> Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
> their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
> strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their rooms
> that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with their
> things. Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
> move.
> I understand that my kids are fighting this move. They don't want to leave
> their friends and school, which I totally understand and have been very
> symphatetic to their feelings. But, we are moving and it seems that they
> are
> doing everything in their power to hender us from what we are trying to
> do.
> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes,

I haven't started this because only my daughter is old enough but when I was
growing up, my mom (or dad) set up a weekly schedule. They divided up three
chores everyday of the week among the kids: putting dishes into the
dishwasher, taking clean dishes out of the dishwasher and putting them away,
and setting the table. It was VERY clear who was assigned what task and
somehow we never questioned it although we didn't like it.

>laundry (their own,
> not mine),

Again, when we were older (around 10,11) we helped with the laundry - at
first it was just folding the laundry and putting it away. Then, it was
taking the clean wet clothes and putting it into the dryer. Again, it
wasn't liked but we did it.

>picking up after themselves,

Ahhh. This is where my family fell down. Our house was messy with papers
and books and drips and drabs of stuff (shoes, socks, etc). And my house
now is the same. No advice here.

With DD, I turn off the TV/computer/stereo and tell her she has to pick up
the stuff or I will pitch it (and I have). She has to take her dirty
dishes to the kitchen but I put them into the dishwasher. She will also put
the clean silverware away (she's not tall enough to reach the cabinets) as
well as the plastic ware and pots and pans.


Jeanne

[Sue]

"hobbes" > wrote in message
> A number of years ago, I was a house parent to a group of 18-20 year olds
> who were doing voluntary service in our community (it was a missions
thing).
> These were kids who were raised in good homes, had done well in high
school
> and were looking for some life experience before going to college. I would
> have thought that by their age they would have been quick to help around
the
> house and to jump in when they saw I could use help with something. Out of
> two groups (total of 10 kids), only 1 person was like that--she was a
dream.
> The others were so self-absorbed, I honestly think they never even
noticed.
> Now, when we had jobs that were scheduled, they did what they had to do,
but
> when it came to basic clean-up-after-yourself stuff, they were horrible.
>
> We moved at one point, and I was the only person out of a house of 6 who
did
> any packing. They would actually sit on the couch and watch me lugging
boxes
> around. I had to specifically ask them to do a specific job before I got
any
> sort of help. (Please take this box and pack those books into it and then
> stack it over here.)

That's amazing. I couldn't watch someone work their butt off and not get up
and help. Even as a young adult. I don't know if it was my training at home
or just my temperment. But, good to know that my kids are not abnormal, lol.

> I remember when we were younger and my mom worked during the summer, she'd
> give us a list of things she'd like us to do that day. We liked that,
> because we could do it on our own time (mainly 15 minutes before she got
> home). Would it work for you to do something like that?

Yes, that would work. I had a much better day yesterday once I told them
what I expected and what I would like them to do. We then did it all
together like we used to and put some music on. I had gotten away from that
and yesterday reminded me that I need to do that again.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Nikki" > wrote in message
> I don't know first hand about any of this stuff with mine being so little.
> My cousin has three girls...all a bit older now but they moved down here
> when they were all that age. *Terrible* mess they could make at that age
so
> you aren't alone ;-) I also remember being a teenager although I was
quite
> helpful until I was 16 or so...all down hill after that ;-)

It's good to know that my kids are not the only ones that are messy. My
sister was messy growing up, but she is neat as a pin now. I was very neat
as a kid and I still am. I can't stand to have a messy house. It makes me
nuts.

> I do know first hand exactly how stressful moving is and how stressful a
> house in disarray from moving is. So I can sympathize with that. I'd say
> that could cloud your perspective because things are already twice as
> stressful, the kids aren't helping at all, and all the other stuff that
goes
> along with moving.

I know now that it is clouding my perspective. I can't believe how stressed
out I am about this right now. We have moved before, but the kids were small
and I didn't expect them to help too much. I have way too much going on,
getting the house ready and packed, trying to work and then the kids and
activities. I will be insane before this is all over and done with.

> Try and accept that they aren't going to be helpful just for you, but try
> not to take that personally ;-).

Yeah, I feel better today. I wrote some stuff down yesterday and told them
what I expected them to do. It went much smoother and we all did it
together. I think this is the key for my kids right now.

Thanks for all the suggestions Nikki. I printed them out, along with the
other suggestions everyone else has given and I think things will be much
better now.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[shinypenny]

Sue wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some
help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8.

My girls are around that age too.

> They are very messy children. Despite
> my husband talking with them until we are blue in the face and even
> resorting to yelling about picking up their own mess, taking pride in
their
> things and our things, they just simply don't care if their stuff is
strewn
> all over and/or torn up. And I am not just saying that it's their
rooms that
> are a mess, which they are, but the overall house is trashed with
their
> things.

Do they have too many things? Is there a logical place that each item
lives? I've found that my kids are more likely to pick up their things,
and even keep their bedrooms clean, if each item has a logical place to
live. I might ask, "please put your things away" but if they 1) have no
place to put it away or 2) their shelves and drawers are crammed,
making it hard to put away, then they don't bother and I can't say as I
can blame them for that.


> Despite making them clean up everyday (and them balking at us
> telling us that they feel like our maids) it has been a daily
struggle for
> our house to look presentable. We are in the process of moving, and
my
> husband and I have been working really hard to get our house ready to
move.

First of all, I think your solution is going to take more time and
effort over the long haul than can be accomplished before and during
your move.

With that said, since you are moving, I'd get a bunch of boxes, and do
a daily pickup, tossing into the boxes all the toys and possessions
that are left strewn about the house. Tell the girls this is your plan.
You will give only ONE warning to pick up. What's not picked up by
bedtime, gets packed and stashed away until the move.

Are you still in process of selling your house? If so, and you need to
keep it tidy for showings, then I'd bite the bullet and hire a cleaning
service. This will allow you to concentrate on packing and picking up,
not on the daily cleaning chores. It will help save your sanity!


> I really need their help with daily chores, like dishes, laundry
(their own,
> not mine), picking up after themselves, etc....... (not just today,
but I
> think these skills are useful for when they are grown).

Yes, good life skills. But, be realistic about your expectations - this
is not going to get solved overnight.

> For example, today
> they have the day off of school. I have been painting most of the
morning
> and they have been either on the computer, playing the keyboard that
we have
> or watching TV. Our house is absolutely turned upside down and I did
mention
> this morning that I would like their help.

No computer, keyboard or t.v. UNTIL the following chores are done.

> Most of the mess is theirs. Their
> trash that they don't pick up,

Perhaps an obvious question, but, do you have trash cans in all the
rooms?

> dishes that they have used,

Is the dishwasher empty? Can't put dirty dishes in the dishwasher if
it's not empty. Is the sink full? Can't put dirty dishes in there if
it's full.

Also, for the short-term, why not consider paper plates? They'd still
need to be thrown away, but it might save a little bit of stress for
you.

> toys all over the
> floor.

Pack these up daily.

> I decided to not even bring it up today and see just what they end up
> doing today. It's almost 2 o'clock now and as I have said, they have
done
> nothing. Is my perspective off in that I expecting children of this
age to
> care about their surroundings or is it my responsibility to just keep
the
> house clean myself and not expect them to help? What would many of
you do in
> the same situation?

I see the main living areas as primarily my responsibility, because I
care a lot more than anyone else does. In our house, people will
usually get to it when they get to it, and not necessarily on my
timeframe. If I want it done NOW, I see that as my responsibility and I
go ahead and do it.

I believe the way you teach kids is to be a role model. I am highly
organized and over the years, that has rubbed off on my kids. DD12 is
extremely organized. DD10 a little less so, but it's coming along (I
was just told by her teacher that at school she's incredibly organized
- we don't see it as much at home, but are starting to see it, as she
has lately taken greater pride and care with her bedroom, which used to
be a huge mess).

In our household, we have a logical place for everything. I've spent
the last couple of years decluttering and paring down our possessions
to an amount that fits within the space we have in our house, so that
everything has a place. I've also instilled routines in the girls. This
did not happen overnight - it took a long time, and daily gentle
reminders (I try very hard not to nag). Today I don't need to remind
for some routines that I've long ingrained in them.

For example, when the girls and I get home at night, we have a specific
routine. They put their backpacks in a certain place, taking out
notices and leaving them on the kitchen counter for me, along with
their lunch boxes, which they empty over the trash can. They put their
shoes, coats, hats, etc in the mudroom that has plenty of hooks.
Likewise, I put my keys, purse and laptop in a particular place, grab
the mail, sort it over the trash can while I still have my coat on,
then hang my coat in the mudroom. This routine takes only a minute or
two, but it took about a year for the kids to get it down as a habit.
Now, they do it without needing reminders, and for example, have
learned by watching me sort the junk mail, that it is smart to do a
backpack purge over the trash can every few days. As a result, we
always know where their school things are, the paper monster stays
under control, and mornings go a lot smoother.

As for dishes, my routine is to always empty the dishwasher first thing
in the morning, because otherwise, I've found nobody puts their
breakfast and lunch dishes away because it's too full. Simple but
obvious, yet it took me awhile to make that connection. And I've also
found that if the sink and counters are clean and dish-free, people are
more likely to not want to pile dirty dishes in it - they'll put the
dishes in the dishwasher instead.

We are in process of learning to set the table. I started by doing most
of it myself, with the girls acting as go-betweens. I would step them
through it "please get 4 glasses for me." I set the glasses down, etc.
Now we have worked up to the girls routinely, without being asked,
getting the glassware, filling with water, and setting them on the
table. They are now advancing to mastery of silverware, as bit by bit,
they are taking over this task without realizing it.

After dinner, we started teaching "clearing the table" by having
everyone bus their own dirty dishes. We all work together as a team.
Over time, I've slowly moved myself to supervisory/pots&pan duty while
DF and the girls bring over all the dirty dishes and put away the items
that need to go back in the fridge. IOW, instead of saying "Go clear
the table and clean up the kitchen or no t.v./dessert/whatever" I've
slowly stepped them through the process over a long period of time,
giving them more and more responsibility for this task. Eventually,
they'll have taken over all of it.

As for putting away toys and other possessions, I do a daily "hot spot"
run through the house, with basket in hand, picking up their things
from the main living areas. I do this without complaint, because, well,
I want it done now, not on their time frame, and I've learned nagging
doesn't help. I then take the basket to the hallway between their
rooms. They are responsible for taking their things out of the basket,
and putting them away. If they don't do it, I have been known to dump
it out on their floor so I can take the empty basket back for another
hot-spot round.

I do in general ignore their rooms. DD12 keeps hers very tidy and puts
away her own things routinely without prompting. DD10's room was a huge
mess, until she and I both made the connection that it was because she
had too many things and not enough places to put them away. We did a
major declutter on her room, and now she has room to put things away
easily and logically, and she does. It made a huge difference.

As for laundry, DD12 is taking this over; it's a little harder for DD10
because we have a stackable, and she's still too short to easily reach
the dryer part, but she can and does load the washer, help fold, and
put away.

Again, learning laundry didn't happen overnight - it was a long,
step-by-step process as routines were taught and then ingrained. My own
routine is to do one complete load each day, starting in the morning. I
put a load into the wash. Put it in the dryer immediately when I get
home. Fold and put away at bedtime (kids have long put their own
away).

I started teaching DDs laundry by involving them in each of these
individual steps. For example, on the days I do their laundry, I'll ask
them to bring me their laundry basket, or have them come help me fold.
Over time, I delegated one of these steps "DD, I'm going to get dinner
started - can you run down and put the wash in the dryer for me?
Thanks." Or "Hey, after you throw your pj's in the laundry basket this
morning, would you mind just taking the whole basket into the laundry
room and putting it all in the wash for me?" If they don't want to, I
don't nag or cajole, I just do it myself, and ask again next time.

DD12 can now do laundry from start to finish. For her, it's just
another of her daily routines (as I said, she is highly organized as it
is). Since the fall, she's been 100% responsible for the kids' laundry.
For Lent she decided to take over the whole family's laundry, and it's
been great. I don't know if she'll continue doing it all after Lent,
but that's okay - it's been a good experience for her.

As for general cleaning, the girls clean their own bedrooms. I don't
dictate when or how they should do this. They just took the initiative
on their own. We have a Roomba, so there is a certain "fun" factor to
vacuuming your own room. Dusting probably isn't done as often as I'd
personally like, if it were my bedroom, but oh well.

As for helping out with cleaning the main rooms, DD12 hates this part
and will avoid it, but DD10 loves to help when she's in the mood. Since
she was a preschooler, she had this love affair with the windex spray
bottle and some paper towels, and has long loved using a wet mop (my
most dreaded and hated chore). We used to strip her naked when it was
time to wet mop, so I think that made it an adventure! Plus, the mop
handle was retractable, so I could adjust it to just her height. She
also enjoys cleaning out the tub after her bath.

I just go with that flow. If she's in the mood, I'll give her a
swiffer, a mop, or bottle of windex, and let her go to town. I try
very hard not to go back over her efforts or in any way criticize the
job she's done. She's learning, she offered to help, and that's what
counts. I can say she does a MUCH better job with the windex today,
than she did as a preschooler!

Basically, I've got one kid who loves cleaning chores, but isn't too
keen on putting things away, and another kid who loves putting things
away, but hates cleaning chores. I try to go with and encourage their
interests. Every little bit helps.

jen

[shinypenny]

Circe wrote:
> And the fact that I didn't have to do the dishes as a kid doesn't
appear to
> have negatively affected my ability to do them now that I'm the
grown-up and
> it's my job, so I'm not particularly sold on the notion that if I
don't make
> them do it now as a regular chore, they'll be incompetent at it as
adults.

I agree with this.

For the most part, my mother catered to us kids hand-and-foot, and
required very little of us. We had no chore lists that I can remember.
She was highly organized and ran a tight ship. The house was always
spotless. We were lazy kids always leaving our things and dishes around
the house; within minutes, they'd be cleared and put away as if by a
magic fairy.

I went through a rough stage when I hit college, and realized I didn't
have the life skills to clean and maintain my apartment. I did have to
teach myself these skills, and that took awhile. But the interesting
thing is that I found I *hated* living in disorganized squalor!!!
Having grown up in a neatly organized, clean house, I cannot seem to
function well in anything less.

On the flip side, my DF grew up in a messy, disorganized house. He
cannot stand being in a household like that. It makes his skin crawl,
he gets all jumpy and distracted, and can't relax. Which is why he is
so incredibly neat and organized today as an adult (he has this thing
about trash in a trash can - he empties them constantly throughout the
day and I've long found this amusing).

We were just talking about this the other day - how we both prefer an
organized, clean house for our mental sanity, and yet we were raised in
entirely different types of households. So, I wouldn't necessarily
worry that kids who aren't required to do chores, will grow up to be
incompetent adults.

jen

[Nikki]

Sue wrote:

> Thanks for all the suggestions Nikki. I printed them out, along with
> the other suggestions everyone else has given and I think things will
> be much better now.

I hope so! I bet you'll be glad when the move is done. It might also be
helpful to have one day a week where your dh takes the girls out all day.
It is amazing how productive a person can be all alone *and* not have anyone
home to mess things up! I suppose you could arrange for all of them to go
to various friends houses but that seems like more work :-)


--
Nikki

[Penny Gaines]

Sue wrote:

> "Nikki" > wrote in message
>> I don't know first hand about any of this stuff with mine being so
>> little. My cousin has three girls...all a bit older now but they moved
>> down here when they were all that age.**Terrible*mess*they*could*make*at
>> that*age
> so
>> you aren't alone ;-)***I*also*remember*being*a*teenager*although*I*wa s
> quite
>> helpful until I was 16 or so...all down hill after that ;-)
>
> It's good to know that my kids are not the only ones that are messy. My
> sister was messy growing up, but she is neat as a pin now. I was very neat
> as a kid and I still am. I can't stand to have a messy house. It makes me
> nuts.

FWIW, I can think of at least three people I have known who had neat
bedrooms when they were kids, but in each case they wouldn't automatically
do anything about their belongings in the rest of the house (although the
rest of those houses have been moderately untidy).

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Irene]

Nikki wrote:
> Sue wrote:
>
> > Thanks for all the suggestions Nikki. I printed them out, along
with
> > the other suggestions everyone else has given and I think things
will
> > be much better now.
>
> I hope so! I bet you'll be glad when the move is done. It might
also be
> helpful to have one day a week where your dh takes the girls out all
day.
> It is amazing how productive a person can be all alone *and* not have
anyone
> home to mess things up! I suppose you could arrange for all of them
to go
> to various friends houses but that seems like more work :-)
>
I forget - you're still trying to sell the house, right? When my SIL
was trying, with 3 small girls, she spent as much time out of the house
as possible, to keep it in showable condition. ;-)

Irene

[Catherine Woodgold]

"Sue" ) writes:
> I had a chore chart and we got away from it. I guess it's time for me to get
> back to that again. I guess my problem is today that they are off school and
> nothing has been done. I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and help
> and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with unless
> I stand over them, like Marie said. Thanks.

You're feeling disappointed because you thought
your kids would help you out of consideration or
a sense of responsibility.

The book "The Family Virtues Guide" tells how
to teach children to show virtues such as
consideration, responsibility, honesty, patience etc.
Actually, it's ore like carefully nurturing those
virtues as they grow in the
children. You can't force the virtues in,
but you can care for them like watering a plant
and help them grow.

The main thing to do is to recognize when the children do
show those virtues even a tiny bit, and use the
words for the virtues while praising them.

Re chores: I think it's very reasonable to
expect children to do some of the housework. A fair share,
perhaps. But they're not going to just do it because you
expect it. You have to teach them to, or force
them to, or make it fun for them, or something.

A good technique is to have family meetings where
you all discuss who is supposed to do what and
what the consequences will be if they don't.
Try to have a spirit of working together and
dividing up the work.

You can do things like making a rule that
there are no video games for anyone as long as there
is any trash on the floor. Recognize, though, that
these rules will affect the atmosphere and how
your kids feel about you and whether they'll feel
like pitching in to help in emergencies such
as moving.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> I need some perspective on a couple of matters and/or even some help/ideas
> on how to solve this problem my family is experiencing.
>
> We have three girls ages 12, 9 and 8. They are very messy children.

I'd suggest you subscribe to Flylady. There are several things she talks
about that would help.

The first is to model what you want. You can hardly blame your kids for being
messy if you come in, drop the mail and your shoes in the lounge room till
"later", and are always losing your car keys and eating takeaway because you
are disorganised. So the first thing to look at is whether *you* need help!
And that's where Flylady starts -- with you, not your family. There are rave
reviews from women who have suddenly discovered their husbands helping in the
kitchen after they started *modelling* what was required instead of expecting
their husbands to mind-read!

Secondly, FLylady's routines approach is helpful. If you do the same things
in the same order each morning, you have a morning routine, and it becomes
automatic -- you then have more time to do other things.

Thirdly, your children may just have too many things, a pretty common
phenomenon in the First World. If they have so many things that they no
longer feel the need to look after them, they have too many. Time to
declutter -- and that will help simplify the move, too.

Are you getting the children to help pack their rooms?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> I have tried that and basically they don't care if they have their stuff or
> not.

They have too many things. Put 'em in the garage for sale, if they aren't
truly interested in playing with them.

> I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and help
> and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with unless
> I stand over them

They "don't care enough"? About you, or about a neat environment? I think
you need to look at your own thinking patterns here.

(a) you are expecting people to read your mind

(b) you are expecting people fall in with what you want

(c) you are equating neatness in the house with how much they care about you

(d) after a few months of letting things get untidy, you are wondering how
come nobody sees neatness as a priority!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article <r6qZd.5153$uk7.1407@fed1read01>, "Circe" >
wrote:

> > If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
> > stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc .......
>
> Okay, well, I think if if that were happening in my house, I'd stop letting
> them have those things as snacks.

Ditto here -- and I would be getting them to eat in the kitchen.

> > Tissues are left.
>
> Oops, can't help ya there! Can't exactly have them stop blowing their noses,
> eh?

Yuk! Don't they have pockets?

> I am chuckling a little bit to myself at this, because I remember how it
> drove my father absolutely nuts that I *never* hung my wet towels back up in
> the bathroom.

What I don't understand is why you were taking them out of the bathroom. In
my family, people took their clothes *into* the bathroom with them (or came
out in the nud).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> Thanks. I think I will let them know that they can't watch
> TV/computer/keyboard until the place is picked up.

I think that sounds as if you are expecting them to do wrong. I'd be tying
pickup time to something nice, eg 10 mins before dinner/favourite TV show.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Sue]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
> > Okay, well, I think if if that were happening in my house, I'd stop
letting
> > them have those things as snacks.

And then what? Never teach them to throw their things away? I'm not sure
that's the answer. I have two kids that have to have snacks, so not letting
them have snacks would be a bad thing. Someone suggested having a trash can
in the living room and I think that is the answer to this particular
problem. I have put it right by the table.

> Ditto here -- and I would be getting them to eat in the kitchen.

Except that the table to eat on is in the living room. There is no room in
the kitchen. They are eating in the correct spot, but just not putting their
stuff away.

> Yuk! Don't they have pockets?

Oh yuk, that's even worse. I think the next time they have a cold, I will
just deposit a trash can by them that they can use.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
> They have too many things. Put 'em in the garage for sale, if they aren't
> truly interested in playing with them.

They *do* have too much stuff. But, like I said in my previous post, we are
in the middle of moving and getting rid of stuff, so things are in a huge
mess right now. Things will get better once we can get everything cleared
out.

> They "don't care enough"? About you, or about a neat environment? I
think
> you need to look at your own thinking patterns here.

A neat environment. I am very neat and organized by nature, and I guess I
thought that they would just naturally pick this trait up. My oldest has
that trait, but the youngest two don't. It is very hard for me to have
things in a mess as they are right this minute because of moving.

> (a) you are expecting people to read your mind

Probably, but they have heard me bellyaching about cleaning up their stuff
for years and months now. It seems like they should be getting it now.

> (b) you are expecting people fall in with what you want

Yep. It's a hard concept to let go of.

> (c) you are equating neatness in the house with how much they care about
you

No, I am not.

> (d) after a few months of letting things get untidy, you are wondering how
> come nobody sees neatness as a priority!

It hasn't been months, but more like a weekend. Things were left over the
weekend because my husband and I were busy painting. Dishes got left, the
kids toys were left out and both my husband and I were too tired to make
them do anything after the weekend. I thought that since they had Monday
off, they would help me out without me asking, but I see that my
expectations are not the same as theirs and have went back to the chore
chart and working together to clean up. It has worked much better these last
few days. I see now that I have to keep up with the chore chart and working
together for a common goal.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
> The first is to model what you want. You can hardly blame your kids for
being
> messy if you come in, drop the mail and your shoes in the lounge room till
> "later", and are always losing your car keys and eating takeaway because
you
> are disorganised. So the first thing to look at is whether *you* need
help!

Nope, I don't need help. My keys are always put in my purse that is hung up
in the foyer that have hooks. My coat is always hung up. Shoes are put in
the basket in the foyer. I'm extremely neat by nature.

> Secondly, FLylady's routines approach is helpful. If you do the same
things
> in the same order each morning, you have a morning routine, and it becomes
> automatic -- you then have more time to do other things.

I work at home, so things run a little different in my house. I usually save
any work around the house until they come home from school. But, it's the
routine we had gotten out of. We have gotten back into our routine again and
things have been much smoother the last couple of days.

> Are you getting the children to help pack their rooms?

To a certain extent. They would keep everything under the sun, if I just
didn't clean it myself and got rid of things that I know they don't need.
They will be helping to pack the things that end up being kept though.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

Thanks Cathy. You have some very good ideas.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

"Catherine Woodgold" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Sue" ) writes:
> > I had a chore chart and we got away from it. I guess it's time for me to
get
> > back to that again. I guess my problem is today that they are off school
and
> > nothing has been done. I guess I kind of expected them to pitch in and
help
> > and I see that that they really don't care enough to help me out with
unless
> > I stand over them, like Marie said. Thanks.
>
> You're feeling disappointed because you thought
> your kids would help you out of consideration or
> a sense of responsibility.
>
> The book "The Family Virtues Guide" tells how
> to teach children to show virtues such as
> consideration, responsibility, honesty, patience etc.
> Actually, it's ore like carefully nurturing those
> virtues as they grow in the
> children. You can't force the virtues in,
> but you can care for them like watering a plant
> and help them grow.
>
> The main thing to do is to recognize when the children do
> show those virtues even a tiny bit, and use the
> words for the virtues while praising them.
>
> Re chores: I think it's very reasonable to
> expect children to do some of the housework. A fair share,
> perhaps. But they're not going to just do it because you
> expect it. You have to teach them to, or force
> them to, or make it fun for them, or something.
>
> A good technique is to have family meetings where
> you all discuss who is supposed to do what and
> what the consequences will be if they don't.
> Try to have a spirit of working together and
> dividing up the work.
>
> You can do things like making a rule that
> there are no video games for anyone as long as there
> is any trash on the floor. Recognize, though, that
> these rules will affect the atmosphere and how
> your kids feel about you and whether they'll feel
> like pitching in to help in emergencies such
> as moving.
> --
> Cathy
> A *much* better world is possible.

[Circe]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
> > I am chuckling a little bit to myself at this, because I remember how it
> > drove my father absolutely nuts that I *never* hung my wet towels back
up in
> > the bathroom.
>
> What I don't understand is why you were taking them out of the bathroom.
In
> my family, people took their clothes *into* the bathroom with them (or
came
> out in the nud).

Well, I was perfectly capable of leaving them on the floor in the bathroom
and did fairly frequently when I was younger, but as a teenager, I rarely
ever decided what I was going to wear until *after* I got out of the shower,
and running to my room in the buff just didn't seem appropriate to me at
that age.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Nan]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:

>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?

Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.

Nan

[Banty]

In article >, Nan says...
>
>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:
>
>>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>
>Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.
>

When my (then) 11 year old got the job of doing his own laundry is when he was
leaving pens in pants pockets, tissues in pockets. Then he could deal with his
own ink and fluff :)

He took to the responsibility pretty easily (suprises me sometimes). Now if I
could get him to actually hang stuff up and put it away in the new furniture he
has and new closet with two-tired hanging rods. He seems to prefer the
pull-from-pile approach.

Banty

[shinypenny]

Circe wrote:
> Well, I was perfectly capable of leaving them on the floor in the
bathroom
> and did fairly frequently when I was younger, but as a teenager, I
rarely
> ever decided what I was going to wear until *after* I got out of the
shower,
> and running to my room in the buff just didn't seem appropriate to me
at
> that age.

I have one DD who routinely puts her clothes in the hamper and hangs up
her towel without any prompting necessary. The other DD does not. I
don't know whether this is a good thing or not, but I decided long ago
not to make it an issue. It's no big deal for me to hang up her towel
and put her clothes in the hamper when I go to tuck her into bed. I
guess I hope someday it'll simply click in with her. In the meantime, I
don't get upset since it's really not a big deal. Maybe I would feel
differently if all members of my household didn't bother, but since
it's just her and not DF and DD12, then it's no skin off my nose.

Oh well, at least she loves to clean the bathtub for me, and she
*always* makes her bed without any prompting. Better than me on those
two scores. I rarely make my bed.

jen

[Nan]

On 17 Mar 2005 09:31:06 -0800, Banty >
scribbled:

>In article >, Nan says...
>>
>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:
>>
>>>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>>
>>Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.
>>
>
>When my (then) 11 year old got the job of doing his own laundry is when he was
>leaving pens in pants pockets, tissues in pockets. Then he could deal with his
>own ink and fluff :)

I taught ds how to do laundry, but I still preferred to do our
laundry. I couldn't make a full load of just one or the other, and
I'm anal about my washing machine ;-)

>He took to the responsibility pretty easily (suprises me sometimes). Now if I
>could get him to actually hang stuff up and put it away in the new furniture he
>has and new closet with two-tired hanging rods. He seems to prefer the
>pull-from-pile approach.

Mine preferred living out of his laundry basket for some reason.

Nan

[Catherine Woodgold]

"Sue" ) writes:


> out. I had gotten out of the chore list and working at a certain time
> everyday together to get things done. I see that I need to reinstitute that
> again. Toda

If you have a system, it's much better to keep
using the system all the time, than to slip out of
it and reinstitute it when you
feel the need for it.

If you keep the same system going all the time, the kids
tend to come to accept it as reality. If you only use
it sometimes, it seems to the kids more like something
their parents feel like imposing on them.

At you r family meetings: OK, the parents have to
have the final say. However, it's im;oortant that
the kids also have ssome input and be
listened to. The family meeting should not be pretty
much just the parents announcing
this is what the new system is.

These kids are going through a move they don't want.
Consideration for them would mean things like
helping them figure out how to
stay in toouch with friends;
helping them through a grieving process;
or leaving them alone to
work out their own feelings. They
may also be angry at you for deciding to move.

A 3-year-old might perceive a move as something inevitable that's
just happening, but your kids are old enough to
fully understand that the move is your decision even though
you know the kids don't want it and will suffer
from being separated from their freinds.
It is not at all surprising if they don't
particularly feel like being
spontaneously considerate and rushing to
help you with things.

Things you might try with chores:

-- Assign each child one plate of a distinctive
colour, one bowl, one spoon etc.
They have to wash their own (or take
turns washing each other's or
however they want to work that out).
If yiou do this, they will probably always
wash hjust before eating, though.

-- Let them do their own laundry or wesar dirtly clothes.
Before doing this, think about whether you can stand them in
dirty clothes.

-- Have more wastebaskets to make it
easier to throw out trash: one on
each side of a room , etc.

-- Every day at 12 noon, 4 pm and 7 pm,
everyboyd has to come off the computer and
tidy up. Nobody is allowed to use the computer
etc. until the floor and table are empty.

-- I wouldn't use the word "trash" to refer
to the things they leave. They could be insulted.
I would say "things" which is neutral.
"There has to be nothing on the table."

-- At the famioly meeting, discuss what areas have to
be kept clear etc. Listen to their perspective.
But if you're showing your house, it's a special
case.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Marie]

On 18 Mar 2005 02:13:28 GMT, (Catherine
Woodgold) wrote:
>Things you might try with chores:
>
>-- Assign each child one plate of a distinctive
>colour, one bowl, one spoon etc.
>They have to wash their own (or take
>turns washing each other's or
>however they want to work that out).
>If yiou do this, they will probably always
>wash hjust before eating, though.
>
>-- Let them do their own laundry or wesar dirtly clothes.
>Before doing this, think about whether you can stand them in
>dirty clothes.
>
>-- Have more wastebaskets to make it
>easier to throw out trash: one on
>each side of a room , etc.
>
>-- Every day at 12 noon, 4 pm and 7 pm,
>everyboyd has to come off the computer and
>tidy up. Nobody is allowed to use the computer
>etc. until the floor and table are empty.
>
>-- I wouldn't use the word "trash" to refer
>to the things they leave. They could be insulted.
>I would say "things" which is neutral.
>"There has to be nothing on the table."
>
>-- At the famioly meeting, discuss what areas have to
>be kept clear etc. Listen to their perspective.
>But if you're showing your house, it's a special
>case.

These are good ideas!
Marie

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> wrote:

>In article <r6qZd.5153$uk7.1407@fed1read01>, "Circe" >
>wrote:
>
>> > If they get a piece of candy, they drop it to the floor, a yogurt, the lid
>> > stays on table, wrappers from a granola bar, etc .......
>>
>> Okay, well, I think if if that were happening in my house, I'd stop letting
>> them have those things as snacks.
>
>Ditto here -- and I would be getting them to eat in the kitchen.
>
>> > Tissues are left.
>>
>> Oops, can't help ya there! Can't exactly have them stop blowing their noses,
>> eh?
>
>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>
>> I am chuckling a little bit to myself at this, because I remember how it
>> drove my father absolutely nuts that I *never* hung my wet towels back up in
>> the bathroom.
>
>What I don't understand is why you were taking them out of the bathroom. In
>my family, people took their clothes *into* the bathroom with them (or came
>out in the nud).

My husband dries off in the bathroom. The rest of us wrap towels
around us and go into our bedrooms to dress and soon.

My solution, having radiators, is that I putthe wet towel over the
radiator in my own room

In my house everyone has their own towels and are responsible for
washing them when they wash their clothing

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:17:55 GMT, Nan > wrote:

>On 17 Mar 2005 09:31:06 -0800, Banty >
>scribbled:
>
>>In article >, Nan says...
>>>
>>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:
>>>
>>>>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>>>
>>>Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.
>>>
>>
>>When my (then) 11 year old got the job of doing his own laundry is when he was
>>leaving pens in pants pockets, tissues in pockets. Then he could deal with his
>>own ink and fluff :)
>
>I taught ds how to do laundry, but I still preferred to do our
>laundry. I couldn't make a full load of just one or the other, and
>I'm anal about my washing machine ;-)

We only do full loads. my childusually has one or two full loads (one
of jeans and such, one of everything else.

but I also would be willing to live with a less than full load as part
of the experience of learning to be responsible for one's own
possessions.

In our house everyone takes care of their own things, no exception,

Barb

[toto]

On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:15:41 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
> wrote:

>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:17:55 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>
>>On 17 Mar 2005 09:31:06 -0800, Banty >
>>scribbled:
>>
>>>In article >, Nan says...
>>>>
>>>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:
>>>>
>>>>>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>>>>
>>>>Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.
>>>>
>>>
>>>When my (then) 11 year old got the job of doing his own laundry is when he was
>>>leaving pens in pants pockets, tissues in pockets. Then he could deal with his
>>>own ink and fluff :)
>>
>>I taught ds how to do laundry, but I still preferred to do our
>>laundry. I couldn't make a full load of just one or the other, and
>>I'm anal about my washing machine ;-)
>
>We only do full loads. my childusually has one or two full loads (one
>of jeans and such, one of everything else.
>
>but I also would be willing to live with a less than full load as part
>of the experience of learning to be responsible for one's own
>possessions.
>
>In our house everyone takes care of their own things, no exception,
>
I've always had washing machines that have different fill levels for
smaller loads even when my kids were little. So even when they
couldn't make up a full load, they most certainly could have made
up a half load or 3/4 load. My new machine even has a miniload
and continuous water level setting so you can use any level of water
that suits the load.

>Barb


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Banty]

In article >, toto says...
>
>On Fri, 18 Mar 2005 07:15:41 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
> wrote:
>
>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 18:17:55 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>>>On 17 Mar 2005 09:31:06 -0800, Banty >
>>>scribbled:
>>>
>>>>In article >, Nan says...
>>>>>
>>>>>On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 20:18:06 +1100, Chookie
> scribbled:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>>>>>
>>>>>Shredded tissues in the washing machine/dryer would be worse, imo.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>When my (then) 11 year old got the job of doing his own laundry is when he was
>>>>leaving pens in pants pockets, tissues in pockets. Then he could deal with his
>>>>own ink and fluff :)
>>>
>>>I taught ds how to do laundry, but I still preferred to do our
>>>laundry. I couldn't make a full load of just one or the other, and
>>>I'm anal about my washing machine ;-)
>>
>>We only do full loads. my childusually has one or two full loads (one
>>of jeans and such, one of everything else.
>>
>>but I also would be willing to live with a less than full load as part
>>of the experience of learning to be responsible for one's own
>>possessions.
>>
>>In our house everyone takes care of their own things, no exception,
>>
>I've always had washing machines that have different fill levels for
>smaller loads even when my kids were little. So even when they
>couldn't make up a full load, they most certainly could have made
>up a half load or 3/4 load. My new machine even has a miniload
>and continuous water level setting so you can use any level of water
>that suits the load.

Water is no problem in my part of the country at present, but there are the
concerns of power consumed, and wear and tear, for more and smaller loads.

However, to my mind the benefit of being able to transfer a well-definable
responsibility to my son outweighs that. Benefits both of us.

Of course it's a simpler equation as it's just the two of us...

Banty

[Sue]

"toto" > wrote in message
> I've always had washing machines that have different fill levels for
> smaller loads even when my kids were little. So even when they
> couldn't make up a full load, they most certainly could have made
> up a half load or 3/4 load. My new machine even has a miniload
> and continuous water level setting so you can use any level of water
> that suits the load.

My washer has different water levels also and that's why I wouldn't care if
they couldn't make up a full load. They have been taught to change the level
if they need to. But, I have said too that if they want to go ahead and make
a full load, there is always plenty of clothes to that.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[toto]

On 18 Mar 2005 09:00:19 -0800, Banty > wrote:

>>I've always had washing machines that have different fill levels for
>>smaller loads even when my kids were little. So even when they
>>couldn't make up a full load, they most certainly could have made
>>up a half load or 3/4 load. My new machine even has a miniload
>>and continuous water level setting so you can use any level of water
>>that suits the load.
>
>Water is no problem in my part of the country at present, but there are the
>concerns of power consumed, and wear and tear, for more and smaller loads.
>
>However, to my mind the benefit of being able to transfer a well-definable
>responsibility to my son outweighs that. Benefits both of us.
>
I agree.

Of course, with my Maytag machines, the wear and tear must have been
pretty negligible since I think that they lasted without repair for
over 20 years and then lasted longer after minor adjustments.

I hope that the new ones we bought when we moved last as long.

>Of course it's a simpler equation as it's just the two of us...
>

Yep, that's true too.

>Banty


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Chookie]

In article >,
Barbara Bomberger > wrote:

> My solution, having radiators, is that I putthe wet towel over the
> radiator in my own room

Possible fire hazard, I would think!

> In my house everyone has their own towels and are responsible for
> washing them when they wash their clothing

I suppose this would depend on how many people there are in the house (and
their age), but as towels have a tendency to leave fluff, it seems a bit
counterproductive to make people wash the towels with their other clothes. I
just do a load of towels a week (unless they are pale, in which case they go
in with the whites) -- but there are only 3 of us.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> "Chookie" > wrote in message
> > > Okay, well, I think if if that were happening in my house, I'd stop
> > > letting them have those things as snacks.
>
> And then what? Never teach them to throw their things away? I'm not sure
> that's the answer. I have two kids that have to have snacks, so not letting
> them have snacks would be a bad thing. Someone suggested having a trash can
> in the living room and I think that is the answer to this particular
> problem. I have put it right by the table.

Your solution is another one. No, I wrote *those things* -- things that come
in wrapping. I meant that they might have to have bread, cheese slices, fruit
and so on, instead of the ready-made kinds of snacks, just to cut down on the
rubbish.

> > Ditto here -- and I would be getting them to eat in the kitchen.
>
> Except that the table to eat on is in the living room. There is no room in
> the kitchen. They are eating in the correct spot, but just not putting their
> stuff away.

I see -- I was assuming an eat-in kitchen but that snacks were being eaten on
the sofa.

> > Yuk! Don't they have pockets?
>
> Oh yuk, that's even worse. I think the next time they have a cold, I will
> just deposit a trash can by them that they can use.

LOL! Picking up someone else's snot isn't fun whether it's in the pocket or
in the lounge room. Sounds like another waste-paper basket might be required
in your lounge room.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> "Chookie" > wrote in message
> > They have too many things. Put 'em in the garage for sale, if they aren't
> > truly interested in playing with them.
>
> They *do* have too much stuff. But, like I said in my previous post, we are
> in the middle of moving and getting rid of stuff, so things are in a huge
> mess right now. Things will get better once we can get everything cleared
> out.

I don't envy you!


> > They "don't care enough"? About you, or about a neat environment? I
> > think you need to look at your own thinking patterns here.
>
> A neat environment. I am very neat and organized by nature, and I guess I
> thought that they would just naturally pick this trait up. My oldest has
> that trait, but the youngest two don't. It is very hard for me to have
> things in a mess as they are right this minute because of moving.

We have the opposite thing happening -- DS likes some things exceptionally
neat (like his music workbook -- he kept refusing to draw in it, and we
eventually discovered that he didn't want it messed up! Toys in the lounge
room are another story, though!).

> > (a) you are expecting people to read your mind
>
> Probably, but they have heard me bellyaching about cleaning up their stuff
> for years and months now. It seems like they should be getting it now.

Most people shut off when someone whinges to them, so they may have got past
the point of listening.

> > (b) you are expecting people fall in with what you want
>
> Yep. It's a hard concept to let go of.
>
> > (c) you are equating neatness in the house with how much they care about
> you
>
> No, I am not.

I wasn't sure about this, because I could read your post either way.

> > (d) after a few months of letting things get untidy, you are wondering how
> > come nobody sees neatness as a priority!
>
> It hasn't been months, but more like a weekend. Things were left over the
> weekend because my husband and I were busy painting. Dishes got left, the
> kids toys were left out and both my husband and I were too tired to make
> them do anything after the weekend. I thought that since they had Monday
> off, they would help me out without me asking, but I see that my
> expectations are not the same as theirs and have went back to the chore
> chart and working together to clean up. It has worked much better these last
> few days. I see now that I have to keep up with the chore chart and working
> together for a common goal.

Ah -- I had the impression it was a much longer period withut the chore chart.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"Sue" > wrote:

> > Secondly, FLylady's routines approach is helpful. If you do the same
> > things in the same order each morning, you have a morning routine, and it
> > becomes automatic -- you then have more time to do other things.
>
> I work at home, so things run a little different in my house. I usually save
> any work around the house until they come home from school. But, it's the
> routine we had gotten out of. We have gotten back into our routine again and
> things have been much smoother the last couple of days.

Flylady's routines are for everyone, no matter where they work. She pointed
out once that everyone has a routine, but that sometimes it isn't a productive
one (a routine of nagging a child to put his shoes on, or of hunting for your
car keys, for example). I have a short routine for work days and add a few
items on my non-work days.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Sue]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
> Your solution is another one. No, I wrote *those things* -- things that
come
> in wrapping. I meant that they might have to have bread, cheese slices,
fruit
> and so on, instead of the ready-made kinds of snacks, just to cut down on
the
> rubbish.

Oh I see. I didn't exactly understand what you meant. Yes that is a good
idea.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[[email protected]]

I went and bought some inexpensive hampers (those pop-up nylon mesh and
wire ones that are under $10) and put one in each of our three kids
rooms. Compliance with putting stuff in the hamper rather than the
floor is now 100%.

I installed big hooks in the bathroom (rather than towel bars), which
has improved the towel hanging rate as well.

Mary G
Mom of three, 14, 11 and 7

[bizby40]

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Sue" > wrote:
>
>> > Secondly, FLylady's routines approach is helpful. If you do the same
>> > things in the same order each morning, you have a morning routine, and
>> > it
>> > becomes automatic -- you then have more time to do other things.
>>
>> I work at home, so things run a little different in my house. I usually
>> save
>> any work around the house until they come home from school. But, it's the
>> routine we had gotten out of. We have gotten back into our routine again
>> and
>> things have been much smoother the last couple of days.
>
> Flylady's routines are for everyone, no matter where they work. She
> pointed
> out once that everyone has a routine, but that sometimes it isn't a
> productive
> one (a routine of nagging a child to put his shoes on, or of hunting for
> your
> car keys, for example). I have a short routine for work days and add a
> few
> items on my non-work days.

I've tried Flylady a few times, and just found it to be overwhelming. I
know you're supposed to take baby steps and not do the things that apply to
you, but when you get a digest with 25 reminders for every single day, it
seems like a lot. And it's hard to just ignore the bulk of them and still
think you're doing anything.

I think she needs levels. Is "Flylady Baby" a term I've seen on her
website? At any rate, that's what they need. You sign up as a beginner,
and then *only* get a schedule or reminders about the first steps. Then,
when and if you feel like you are ready to head up to another level, you
could move yourself up.

Bizby

> Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
> (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
>
> "In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
> nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
> Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
"bizby40" > wrote:

> I've tried Flylady a few times, and just found it to be overwhelming. I
> know you're supposed to take baby steps and not do the things that apply to
> you, but when you get a digest with 25 reminders for every single day, it
> seems like a lot. And it's hard to just ignore the bulk of them and still
> think you're doing anything.

I killfile the ones I can't see myself managing, or which don't apply (eg
there ar eight a day about drinking water, which is not a difficulty for me).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
toto > wrote:

> I've always had washing machines that have different fill levels for
> smaller loads even when my kids were little. So even when they
> couldn't make up a full load, they most certainly could have made
> up a half load or 3/4 load.

Mine does too, but the problem is that doing a half load doesn't use half the
water of a full load -- more like 3/4. I try not to do half loads for this
reason. The Sydney dams are at about 42%.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.