To mentor or not to

[tired_mom]

Hello-

There was a requirement for a Math tutor for a 5th grader in a local
school and I volunteered to take it up few months back.
I have been spending few hours (2 or less) every week for the past
couple of months.

NOW.

I am on the verge of discountinuing the teaching, and here is why -

The student, a 5th grader girl is too poor in maths. i started teaching
her class curriculm which is geometry and realized that she has trouble
doing simple additions and that is what she need focus on.
I started going back to the basics and doing additions/mulitplications
etc.
I am finding this the biggest challenge. It is just so difficult to get
her to communicate anything and most of the time I do not know whether
she understands anything or not. Even a "Do you understand it, Yes, or
No" is usually a blank look. Even questions like what classes did you
have today morning or what topics are they covering in science is a
blank look. Other day I asked her who helps out in homework and what
you had for breakfast and the response is same. I have told her many
times that she need to communicate to me otherwise it is just very
difficult for me to teach her and it is for her own benefit.

Anyway, from all this nature, one would assume she is a very queit
person. But if you just start talking to her about movies or video
games etc, she is a changed person, her mood instantly changes and she
is all excited and she starts telling me all about it. Also if I make
a comment on how good she looks etc, she gets all excited.


I dont know anything about her family members, except that mom and dad
lives together and she is the only child.
I also assume they are well off because she told me her parents both
work together in a reputed software company. Another reason is her
outfits. Every day she comes to school with the prettiest dress, her
hairs dyed, nails all done - As if she is going to a party. she told me
she visits the salon with her mom to have pedicure etc alternate days
or so.

Here are the things I cannot understand-

how irresponsible her parents might be - that they do not spent any
time with her helping out with her homework etc or teach her basic
things in life. Even though they know their child has a mentor, they
never even once made an attempt to enquire about me with the teacher or
send a word of thanks.

how irresponsible her teachers are - that they let her be in 5th grade
when she has NO understanding of basic Math
I told her teacher about her lack of knowledge and she tells me "The
kid DOES know additions and multiplications, she just will not say it
and act like dumb and sit blank whatever you ask her because she is
very obstinate and does not like to talk to new people" She tells me
she understands my frustruation, and thank you for coming to teach her
and please continue to do it.

how irresponsible she is - Even though we have now spent atleast a good
15 hours together, she still does not want to trust me or open to me.
she thinks of me as trouble is the feeling I get. she does not have
the sligthest gratitue to me for spending all that time with her. I
teach her from 1-2 which is right after their recess. usually when i
reach there, she is playing outside and not too happy to see me. And
even though she sees me, she continues to act like she has not and
continues playing there until her teacher calls her and asks her to go
with me. She then comes along with me with a big drag.
I feel a 5th grader must know better!

When I speak about this to my spouse, he says I should not be doing
this. I have a toddler myself and he is in the daycare while I am
teaching her. the time I am spending with her could have been very well
spent with my child.
DH says this kid is a spoiled brat, and the time I spent with her might
not be giving back to society at all.
He tells me that millions of children around the world are dying out of
poverty and they are the ones who need help, not these rich kids who
have all the money and freedom.
He tells me that if I really want to teach her, I should teach her some
good behaviour and responsbility instead of Math and and that is
beyond what I am assigned to do.

Please pen your thought on this.
Thanks.

[Beth Kevles]

Hi -

It sounds to me as though this girl would be better off with a different
math tutor, and *you* would be better off with a different student.

Working well with kids takes experience. You may find it easier to work
with 5th graders when your own child reaches that age; you'll understand
a lot more about what makes them tick. In the meantime, consider
tutoring a much younger child, perhaps one in kindergarten who needs
individual help, or a first grader.

Don't tutor kids for gratitude, by the way. Do it because YOU find it
satisfying. I say this as someone who has done volunteer tutoring at a
variety of grade levels for over 20 years. Some jobs I loved and stuck
with for a long time, others I gave up as not being worth it.

My two cents,
--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

[Jeff]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello-
>
> There was a requirement for a Math tutor for a 5th grader in a local
> school and I volunteered to take it up few months back.
> I have been spending few hours (2 or less) every week for the past
> couple of months.
>
> NOW.
>
> I am on the verge of discountinuing the teaching, and here is why -
>
> The student, a 5th grader girl is too poor in maths. i started teaching
> her class curriculm which is geometry and realized that she has trouble
> doing simple additions and that is what she need focus on.

Have discussed this with the teacher? The teacher may be willing to help
you in this or might be able to explain why (s)he thinks it would be better
to work on geometry.

(...)

> Here are the things I cannot understand-
>
> how irresponsible her parents might be - that they do not spent any
> time with her helping out with her homework etc or teach her basic
> things in life. Even though they know their child has a mentor, they
> never even once made an attempt to enquire about me with the teacher or
> send a word of thanks.

I understand your feelings. Please remember, you are there for the girl, not
for her parents.

> how irresponsible her teachers are - that they let her be in 5th grade
> when she has NO understanding of basic Math
> I told her teacher about her lack of knowledge and she tells me "The
> kid DOES know additions and multiplications, she just will not say it
> and act like dumb and sit blank whatever you ask her because she is
> very obstinate and does not like to talk to new people" She tells me
> she understands my frustruation, and thank you for coming to teach wher
> and please continue to do it.

OK, my previous question answered.

Maybe what the teacher means is that it takes a while until the child opens
up to you.

> how irresponsible she is - Even though we have now spent atleast a good
> 15 hours together, she still does not want to trust me or open to me.
> she thinks of me as trouble is the feeling I get. she does not have
> the sligthest gratitue to me for spending all that time with her. I
> teach her from 1-2 which is right after their recess. usually when i
> reach there, she is playing outside and not too happy to see me. And
> even though she sees me, she continues to act like she has not and
> continues playing there until her teacher calls her and asks her to go
> with me. She then comes along with me with a big drag.
> I feel a 5th grader must know better!

I work with a boy who is going into 5th grade next fall. Sounds perfectly
normal to me.

It seems to me that the school should arrange a time for you to meet that
doesn't take her away from other activities. How, I don't know. But having
you take her away from recess doesn't seem like good planning on the
school's fault. I am not saying with the daily schedule, there is a better
answer, though.

It seems to me that you are a caring person who wants to tutor a child.
However, I am wondering about 2

> When I speak about this to my spouse, he says I should not be doing
> this. I have a toddler myself and he is in the daycare while I am
> teaching her. the time I am spending with her could have been very well
> spent with my child.

It seems to me that you are becoming resentful of the child.

Maybe you could talk to the teacher about this as well as the child.

Perhaps this will help clear up your feelings as well as let the child
understand what is happening. Perhaps she will decide that she should
listen to you.

However, if you are not getting anywhere, it may be better for you to stop
tuturing her. Maybe when your toddler goes to kidnergarten, you could be a
classroom volunteer then. I know a few parents who did this and made a
tremendous difference in some of the students.

> DH says this kid is a spoiled brat, and the time I spent with her might
> not be giving back to society at all.

Frankly, it is hard to tell one way or the other.

> He tells me that millions of children around the world are dying out of
> poverty and they are the ones who need help, not these rich kids who
> have all the money and freedom.

From what you say, she is not a rick kid. There is more to be rich than
money and nice clothes.

> He tells me that if I really want to teach her, I should teach her some
> good behaviour and responsbility instead of Math and and that is
> beyond what I am assigned to do.

By sticking with this, you are teaching her responsibility. And you can
encourage good behavior.

It is hard to tell what to do from here, though.

> Please pen your thought on this.

I hope my thoughts help.

Jeff

> Thanks.
>

[toypup]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> When I speak about this to my spouse, he says I should not be doing
> this. I have a toddler myself and he is in the daycare while I am
> teaching her. the time I am spending with her could have been very well
> spent with my child.
> DH says this kid is a spoiled brat, and the time I spent with her might
> not be giving back to society at all.
> He tells me that millions of children around the world are dying out of
> poverty and they are the ones who need help, not these rich kids who
> have all the money and freedom.
> He tells me that if I really want to teach her, I should teach her some
> good behaviour and responsbility instead of Math and and that is
> beyond what I am assigned to do.

This child needs someone, but that someone may not be you. If you are
volunteering, you should do it because you want to, and it doesn't sound
like you do, at least you don't want to tutor her in particular.

[tired_mom]

Yes it is true that I no longer have much interest in going over to
meet her every week.
Maybe some time in the past few weeks, my excitement of teaching turned
into a "task"
I guess I like to teach a kid who is sincere and hardworking but not
talented or intelligent like her counterparts. not someone who wears
the best jewelry everyday to class and thinks she is the prettiest lady
in town.

I hate to stop because I dont want the teacher to think I gave up on
the child and thereby make her think that she cannot do it either.
(The head of the school told me that this is the teachers first year
teaching)

I also heard the news that the school is closing at the end of this
School year because of State budget cuts.

[Jeff]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yes it is true that I no longer have much interest in going over to
> meet her every week.
> Maybe some time in the past few weeks, my excitement of teaching turned
> into a "task"
> I guess I like to teach a kid who is sincere and hardworking but not
> talented or intelligent like her counterparts. not someone who wears
> the best jewelry everyday to class and thinks she is the prettiest lady
> in town.
>
> I hate to stop because I dont want the teacher to think I gave up on
> the child and thereby make her think that she cannot do it either.
> (The head of the school told me that this is the teachers first year
> teaching)
>
> I also heard the news that the school is closing at the end of this
> School year because of State budget cuts.


There are three months left. Maybe it is worth it to stick with the program.
If things work out, you might even follow the mentee. If not, you go and do
something different.

On the other hand, maybe you should cut your losses now and concentrate on
something else or working with someone else.

Am I wishy-washy or what?

Jeff

[tired_mom]

Maybe Im too immature but the whole incident makes me not want to teach
anymore..

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello-
>
> There was a requirement for a Math tutor for a 5th grader in a local
> school and I volunteered to take it up few months back.
> I have been spending few hours (2 or less) every week for the past
> couple of months.
>
> NOW.
>
> I am on the verge of discountinuing the teaching, and here is why -
>
> The student, a 5th grader girl is too poor in maths.

Uhm...These are usually the children picked for tutoring/mentoring.

>i started teaching
> her class curriculm which is geometry and realized that she has trouble
> doing simple additions and that is what she need focus on.
> I started going back to the basics and doing additions/mulitplications
> etc.
> I am finding this the biggest challenge. It is just so difficult to get
> her to communicate anything and most of the time I do not know whether
> she understands anything or not. Even a "Do you understand it, Yes, or
> No" is usually a blank look. Even questions like what classes did you
> have today morning or what topics are they covering in science is a
> blank look. Other day I asked her who helps out in homework and what
> you had for breakfast and the response is same. I have told her many
> times that she need to communicate to me otherwise it is just very
> difficult for me to teach her and it is for her own benefit.
>

These sounds like typical responses to the types of questions you ask. I
get the same blank looks when I ask DD these questions. The advice I got
was to start talk about yourself and how your day/morning went - that
usually worked better for us.


> Anyway, from all this nature, one would assume she is a very queit
> person. But if you just start talking to her about movies or video
> games etc, she is a changed person, her mood instantly changes and she
> is all excited and she starts telling me all about it. Also if I make
> a comment on how good she looks etc, she gets all excited.
>
>

Let's see you first asked her about things she probably doesn't like or have
no interest. Not unexpectedly, she doesn't respond in a favorable way.
Then you talk to her about her interests and she responds! Sounds pretty
normal to me.

The trick is to make math interesting and relevant to her. That's tough for
most people - usually we fall back on drills, worksheets and flash cards
(ugh) but the good teachers talk about math as if it's the movies, videos,
games, etc. When I taught (in grad school) someone told me that the reason
I was a good instructor was that I obviously liked and enjoyed what I was
teaching. I wasn't particularly smooth in front of the class, but my
enthusiasm carried the class during my lectures.

> I dont know anything about her family members, except that mom and dad
> lives together and she is the only child.
> I also assume they are well off because she told me her parents both
> work together in a reputed software company.

Well, not everyone who worked for a software company is a programmer or
mid-level manager. :)

I used to joke with my husband and the only way I could get a job in his
organization (the professionals all have graduate math and/or computer
degrees or they are very very very bright) was as a cafeteria worker.

[lots of words about irresponsible people]

Instead of focusing on who's to blame (because that really don't move the
problem forward), focus on the child's needs. There can be a myriad of
reasons why the child needs help in math none of which have to do with
irresponsible parents/schools/teachers/children.

I found tutoring tough and much tougher with children than with college
students. I used math games and manipulatives to help children with
addition and subtraction. In many ways, I was just someone to play games
with during tutor time with drills interspersed. Praise also went a long
way - I found that these children just learned in a different way and the
trick was to uncover it.

Good luck
Jeanne

[Jeff]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Maybe Im too immature but the whole incident makes me not want to teach
> anymore..

I am probably older than you. I am still learning from mentees and maturing.
I expect to learn and mature until my dying day.

All you can do is the best you can do. That may mean staying with the child
or moving on. I guess you have to figure out what is the best thing for you
and the child. Talking with the teacher is probably a really good start.

Remember, there are only about 12 weeks left in the school year.

Jeff

[toto]

On 14 Mar 2005 22:08:44 -0800, "tired_mom" >
wrote:

>Maybe Im too immature but the whole incident makes me not
>want to teach anymore..

I don't think it is immaturity to figure out your own inadequacies
in situations like this one.'

When a child is difficult, many people have a problem dealing with
this. Note that this child may actually be depressed or have other
problems that no one is dealing with. Teaching her math skills may
not be what she needs. She may need help dealing with her feelings
and you are most likely not qualified to do this.

Sometimes, too, you will find that you just don't have the kind of
rapport with a particular student to allow her to get anything out
of the relationship.

OTOH, I do think that children like this sense that *everyone* will
abandon them because they are *unlikable.* Thus it isn't a good
idea to get into this situation and bail out when you feel that you
cannot make progress. Sometimes, just persisting is helpful. You
may find that the student needs someone to talk to about things
that really interest her and that the math tutoring isn't going to get
better until you get her to open up to you more.

It's frustrating, I know. And, it shows why it takes special training
to teach or tutor. You really have to be able to relate to the child
on a special level before she will learn much.

You know, mentoring kids with problems doesn't really mean
teaching them academics. You will find very few kids who are
doing poorly in school who don't have some self-esteem problems
and who may thus be unwilling to do the work until they can see some
success.

I think if you decide to continue, you may want to see if you can
concentrate on an area where she may have some real success
before going on to academic areas where she is failing to *get it.*
One thing that may help is talking to her about your own struggles
in school. Even if you never struggled with school, you must have
had struggles in some area and that can help you relate to her.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Jeff]

"toto" > wrote in message
...

(...)

> You know, mentoring kids with problems doesn't really mean
> teaching them academics. You will find very few kids who are
> doing poorly in school who don't have some self-esteem problems
> and who may thus be unwilling to do the work until they can see some
> success.

Are you supposed to be a tutor or a mentor?

They are both very different things.

Jeff, mentor to Amir, Kartell and Johncarlos

[Cathy Kearns]

"tired_mom" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello-
>
> There was a requirement for a Math tutor for a 5th grader in a local
> school and I volunteered to take it up few months back.
> I have been spending few hours (2 or less) every week for the past
> couple of months.
>
> NOW.
>
> I am on the verge of discountinuing the teaching, and here is why -
>
> The student, a 5th grader girl is too poor in maths. i started teaching
> her class curriculm which is geometry and realized that she has trouble
> doing simple additions and that is what she need focus on.
> I started going back to the basics and doing additions/mulitplications
> etc.
> I am finding this the biggest challenge. It is just so difficult to get
> her to communicate anything and most of the time I do not know whether
> she understands anything or not. Even a "Do you understand it, Yes, or
> No" is usually a blank look. Even questions like what classes did you
> have today morning or what topics are they covering in science is a
> blank look. Other day I asked her who helps out in homework and what
> you had for breakfast and the response is same. I have told her many
> times that she need to communicate to me otherwise it is just very
> difficult for me to teach her and it is for her own benefit.

I hesitate to go here, but are you tutoring in English? From your phrasing
it looks like English may be your second language. Is it possible she is
having trouble understanding your accent? I have a fifth grade daughter. I
have friends she can't understand where I hadn't even noticed they had an
accent.

> Anyway, from all this nature, one would assume she is a very queit
> person. But if you just start talking to her about movies or video
> games etc, she is a changed person, her mood instantly changes and she
> is all excited and she starts telling me all about it. Also if I make
> a comment on how good she looks etc, she gets all excited.

I've found when working with folks with accents that work related phrases,
and other phrases learned recently, are said with no accents. It's possible
she's able to parse these conversations easier as she understands the movie
and video game titles.

Fifth graders love to talk about stuff that interests them. If you figure a
way to include geometry in her favorite video game that may well be the key.
But you also might try talking slower, it makes it easier to understand.

[toto]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 10:44:10 -0500, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>
>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>
>(...)
>
>> You know, mentoring kids with problems doesn't really mean
>> teaching them academics. You will find very few kids who are
>> doing poorly in school who don't have some self-esteem problems
>> and who may thus be unwilling to do the work until they can see some
>> success.
>
>Are you supposed to be a tutor or a mentor?
>
>They are both very different things.
>
>Jeff, mentor to Amir, Kartell and Johncarlos
>

The OP started tutoring, but her title talks about mentoring.

You are correct they are different, but often if you are
tutoring a child with real problems, you must do both.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[tired_mom]

Yes that is true, English is my second language.
I do not think she does not respond because she does not understand
even the casual talk.
But maybe she does find it difficult when I teach her math concepts.

Now that you mention this, I am remembering her telling me - The school
is closing down because her mom told her that too many kids spanish. I
dont speak spanish but maybe she thinks about non Americans
differently.

[toto]

On 15 Mar 2005 18:47:32 -0800, "tired_mom" >
wrote:

>Yes that is true, English is my second language.
>I do not think she does not respond because she does not understand
>even the casual talk.
>But maybe she does find it difficult when I teach her math concepts.
>
>Now that you mention this, I am remembering her telling me - The school
>is closing down because her mom told her that too many kids spanish. I
>dont speak spanish but maybe she thinks about non Americans
>differently.

It is unlikely that too many Spanish speakers would be a reason
for a school to close in reality. If her mom told her this, her mom
is probably incorrect about it.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[tired_mom]

Definitely.
It is a low income neighbourhood and I guess that is what is implied.

[Catherine Woodgold]

What a wonderful opportunity you have.
You're working with a child who may be discouraged,
and who certainly has some sort of problem with math.
If you can find a way to connect with
her and find some clever way to give her
a new experience with math, if you can get her
to think that "math can be fun" or "I can do math",
what a marvelous positive difference you can
make in her life!

Likely she needs one-on-one attention.
Likely she needs particular ways of being taught.

I think this is a case where you need to try
lots of different things until you find something
that works.

Here are some ideas. They might work with
this girl. They might not. You can look for more
different ideas, too.

-- Get her the "Math Blaster" video game or some
other video game designed to give kids practice in math.

-- Forget teaching her addition and
multiplication for now, and teach her
geometry.

-- Spend lots of time in each lesson talking with her about
stuff she's interested in, and a small amount
of time teaching math.

-- Read a book about learning styles, for
example "How Your Child Is Smart". Figure
out what her learning style is, and teach her
in a way that works for that style. For example,
some children respond better to pictures and shapes than to words.

-- Try really hard to avoid asking her questions that she
answers with blank looks. Ask questions she can answer,
and build gradually to expand what she's able to answer.

-- Cut strips of 10 squares, 5 squares an other numbers of
squares and have her manipulate them while learning addition etc.

-- Teach her how to add by counting on her fingers.

-- Paint the numbers from 1 to 10 on her fingernails,
in a very pretty way.

-- Fit arithmetic into your conversation about video
games. For example, you could say: "I have 12 video games at
home: 3 sword-and-sorcery games, 5 children's games, and the
rest are spaceship games. I wonder how many spaceship games
I have. I've forgotten. Can you figure it out for me?"
You can ask questions about how many more levels she
has to beat to get to level 48 in a game, etc.

-- Find out whether she's interested in money. Use real
coins or cardboard coins that can be moved around when
doing the arithmetic.

-- Find out what she's interested in and build from
that somehow.

-- Find out something that she's really good at:
telling jokes? Making friends? Choosing clothes?
Memorizing poems? Whatever. Praise her for what
she's good at, then help her find a way to use her
skill in that to help her do arithmetic.

-- Give her a reason to learn math. Find out
what she wants to be when she grows up. Find out
what high school credits she needs to do that
career. Help her form a goal of passing grade 10
math or whatever.

-- Try to get her tested for learning disabilities.

-- Use music and rhythm in combination with
counting. Easy: "I'll say "one, two, three, four"
over and over while drumming, and you hit the
triangle whenever I say "one".
Hard: "I'll beat the drum. You count
from one to sixteen over and over, and hit the triangle
every time you say "five" or "thirteen"."

I hope you can sympathize with her when she
has trouble answering questions. When you ask
her whether she understands, yes or no, maybe she feels
that's like giving her a choice between telling a
lie or admitting she's a failure for life.
Or, maybe she's thinking, "Well, I thought I
understood what you were saying, but do you mean
there's more to it that I'm not getting?"
Anyway, there's some reason why she can't
easily answer that question. Try to find
her questions she can answer.


--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Jeff]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On 15 Mar 2005 18:47:32 -0800, "tired_mom" >
> wrote:
>
>>Yes that is true, English is my second language.
>>I do not think she does not respond because she does not understand
>>even the casual talk.
>>But maybe she does find it difficult when I teach her math concepts.
>>
>>Now that you mention this, I am remembering her telling me - The school
>>is closing down because her mom told her that too many kids spanish. I
>>dont speak spanish but maybe she thinks about non Americans
>>differently.
>
> It is unlikely that too many Spanish speakers would be a reason
> for a school to close in reality. If her mom told her this, her mom
> is probably incorrect about it.

They may be closing one of the schools in the area, and chose this one so
that when the students are reassigned, the ratio of English to non-english
speaking kids is more even around the school district.

One of the elementary schools I went to was closed so that they can
consolidate all the elementary schools in the school district into three
schools (there are about 200 to 250 students in each grade). It used to be
that there was one class in each of the grades in about 4 schools. I guess
this brings better services, like better gym, library, counseling, etc., to
all the students.

It may be that the population in your area is shifting, so that fewer
schools are needed or there are new schools opening and older ones
decomisssioned. (That happened where I live, except the population grew so
much, that they had to reopen one of the schools.)

They other thing that is happening is that there are a lot of Catholic
schools closing. I live in metro NJ, I see schools closing where I live, in
NYC and where my dad lives in NE Pennsylvania. I think this is happening all
over to Catholic schools. (I get the impression that this is a public
school, but it could be a Catholic one).

Jeff

> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On 15 Mar 2005 18:47:32 -0800, "tired_mom" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Yes that is true, English is my second language.
>>>I do not think she does not respond because she does not understand
>>>even the casual talk.
>>>But maybe she does find it difficult when I teach her math concepts.
>>>
>>>Now that you mention this, I am remembering her telling me - The school
>>>is closing down because her mom told her that too many kids spanish. I
>>>dont speak spanish but maybe she thinks about non Americans
>>>differently.
>>
>> It is unlikely that too many Spanish speakers would be a reason
>> for a school to close in reality. If her mom told her this, her mom
>> is probably incorrect about it.
>
> They may be closing one of the schools in the area, and chose this one so
> that when the students are reassigned, the ratio of English to non-english
> speaking kids is more even around the school district.
>

More likely, of (let's say) three schools eligible to be closed the school
board will close the one with the least amount of parent and community
resistance. So, if there is little feedback from the "Spanish-speakers"
their school is chosen (or rather, not un-chosen).

Thus, I can see the mother's reasoning and it's not necessarily incorrect.

Jeanne (former school planner who met a lot of community resistence).

[tired_mom]

Thank you all. This forum has definitely been so helpful.
Thanks Cathy for so many ideas. You have helped me opened my mind quite
a bit.
I go to teach her today afternoon, and my mentality towards the kid is
so different from what I had when I met her last week.
Kudos to all!

[toto]

On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:02:56 -0500, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>> It is unlikely that too many Spanish speakers would be a reason
>> for a school to close in reality. If her mom told her this, her mom
>> is probably incorrect about it.
>
>They may be closing one of the schools in the area, and chose this one so
>that when the students are reassigned, the ratio of English to non-english
>speaking kids is more even around the school district.

Or, cynically speaking, it may be that the hispanic population has
less clout, so their school is being closed instead of schools with
more politically savvy parents.

It actually makes no sense to reassign the schools so that there are
less Spanish speakers in a given school as it is more economical
to offer the bilingual program for Spanish speaking students in only
one or two schools anyway.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Cathy Kearns]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:02:56 -0500, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
> It actually makes no sense to reassign the schools so that there are
> less Spanish speakers in a given school as it is more economical
> to offer the bilingual program for Spanish speaking students in only
> one or two schools anyway.

But what if the school was over half Spanish speakers? Isn't the ideal
bilingual program one with 50% of the student fluent in each language? (So
50% English speakers 50% Spanish speakers in a Spanish/English bilingual
program.) Though I live in California, where only true bilingual programs
are allowed. Programs aimed at Spanish speakers that teach only in Spanish
for most subjects, slowly introducing English, are no longer legal here.
Many of them weren't run well, and students were making it entirely through
school without becoming fluent in English. (Not a recipe for success...)

[dragonlady]

In article >,
toto > wrote:

> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 22:02:56 -0500, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
> >> It is unlikely that too many Spanish speakers would be a reason
> >> for a school to close in reality. If her mom told her this, her mom
> >> is probably incorrect about it.
> >
> >They may be closing one of the schools in the area, and chose this one so
> >that when the students are reassigned, the ratio of English to non-english
> >speaking kids is more even around the school district.
>
> Or, cynically speaking, it may be that the hispanic population has
> less clout, so their school is being closed instead of schools with
> more politically savvy parents.
>
> It actually makes no sense to reassign the schools so that there are
> less Spanish speakers in a given school as it is more economical
> to offer the bilingual program for Spanish speaking students in only
> one or two schools anyway.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

Unless you are in an area that has made bilingual programs illegal, and
only allows full-immersion programs. Those programs will be more
successful if you have FEWER non-Englinsh speakers.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[toto]

On 17 Mar 2005 10:34:31 -0800, "tired_mom" >
wrote:

>I go to teach her today afternoon, and my mentality towards the kid is
>so different from what I had when I met her last week.
>Kudos to all!

Give us an update after you teach... Good luck.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Catherine Woodgold]

"tired_mom" ) writes:
> Thank you all. This forum has definitely been so helpful.
> Thanks Cathy for so many ideas. You have helped me opened my mind quite
> a bit.
> I go to teach her today afternoon, and my mentality towards the kid is
> so different from what I had when I met her last week.
> Kudos to all!
>

Wonderful!

A couple more ideas you could try:

-- play games with her that use math.
Examples: the card game "Ninety-nine", where
you pile up cards and add up the total without
going over 99; or Yahtzee, a game with dice
that needs some addition and multiplication to
figure out the score.

-- do memory games with her, more to increase her
coinfidence than anything else. You could get
blocks that are triangles and rhombi and put
them in a pattern, show her the pattern for
a limited number of seconds, cover it, and then
see if she can make the same pattern.

Good luck. I hope you find something that helps.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[toypup]

"Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
. com...
> program.) Though I live in California, where only true bilingual programs
> are allowed. Programs aimed at Spanish speakers that teach only in
> Spanish
> for most subjects, slowly introducing English, are no longer legal here.
> Many of them weren't run well, and students were making it entirely
> through
> school without becoming fluent in English. (Not a recipe for success...)

Since when? There is a dual immersion program here (S. California) where
they teach kindergarteners 95% in Spanish and gradually bring in English so
that by 3rd grade or so, they are being taught 50% in English, 50% in
Spanish. I read an article in the paper about it and one Spanish speaking
parent loved the program, which they say is intended to teach Spanish to
English speaking kids.

[toypup]

"toypup" > wrote in message
. ..
>
> "Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> program.) Though I live in California, where only true bilingual
>> programs
>> are allowed. Programs aimed at Spanish speakers that teach only in
>> Spanish
>> for most subjects, slowly introducing English, are no longer legal here.
>> Many of them weren't run well, and students were making it entirely
>> through
>> school without becoming fluent in English. (Not a recipe for success...)
>
> Since when? There is a dual immersion program here (S. California) where
> they teach kindergarteners 95% in Spanish and gradually bring in English
> so that by 3rd grade or so, they are being taught 50% in English, 50% in
> Spanish. I read an article in the paper about it and one Spanish speaking
> parent loved the program, which they say is intended to teach Spanish to
> English speaking kids.

Oh, and I must add, though it's intended to teach Spanish to English
speaking kids, it does not exclude Spanish speaking kids who don't know
English. So, it's probably a way around the English only law.

[Cathy Kearns]

"toypup" > wrote in message
...
>
> "toypup" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >
> > "Cathy Kearns" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> program.) Though I live in California, where only true bilingual
> >> programs
> >> are allowed. Programs aimed at Spanish speakers that teach only in
> >> Spanish
> >> for most subjects, slowly introducing English, are no longer legal
here.
> >> Many of them weren't run well, and students were making it entirely
> >> through
> >> school without becoming fluent in English. (Not a recipe for
success...)
> >
> > Since when? There is a dual immersion program here (S. California)
where
> > they teach kindergarteners 95% in Spanish and gradually bring in
English
> > so that by 3rd grade or so, they are being taught 50% in English, 50% in
> > Spanish. I read an article in the paper about it and one Spanish
speaking
> > parent loved the program, which they say is intended to teach Spanish to
> > English speaking kids.
>
> Oh, and I must add, though it's intended to teach Spanish to English
> speaking kids, it does not exclude Spanish speaking kids who don't know
> English. So, it's probably a way around the English only law.

All parents have to sign documents to allow their children in these types of
programs. The Spanish speaking kids have special documents in Spanish
signed by their parents saying they understand their child may not learn
English in a timely manner, if at all. It really helps the English speaking
kids, to have classmates that speak Spanish fluently. If one starts in
kindergarten it is much easier to pick up another language than if one
starts in, say 3rd grade. This is why having Spanish speaking kids in a
dual immersion that starts off in Spanish is not to the Spanish speaking
kids advantage.

They have a similar program up here, at Castro School in Mountain View.
They are considering scrapping the program, or limiting it, as they are
finding though the English speaking kids do become fluent in Spanish, the
Spanish speaking kids are not becoming fluent enough in English to pass
Standardized testing before the head off to middle school.
>