Do you think my daughter is getting enough sleep?

[Renee]

I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
anybody have any suggestions?

Renee

[[email protected]]

I don't know if your two year old is getting enough sleep, but mine
needs more than yours is getting. My DS goes to bed at 8:00pm and is
usually up around 7:00am. He takes a two hour nap most days (sometimes
longer).

In all, he gets around 13 hours of sleep a day.

Jennifer in AZ

[Ericka Kammerer]

Renee wrote:

> I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
> anybody have any suggestions?

That sounds like too little sleep by normal standards
for two year olds, but not so little that there aren't 2yos
who would do just fine on 10-11 hours of sleep. Does her
behavior suggest to you that she might not be getting enough
sleep (crabby at times, whirling dervish, easily frustrated,
etc.)? If so, then I'd work on getting her to bed earlier.
If she seems just fine with the amount of sleep she's getting,
maybe it's time to see if daycare will cut back on the
afternoon nap.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

"Richard" wrote:

: Renee asked for a definition of sufficient sleep for her
two-year-old
: daughter.

: Ericka Kammerer wrote:
: > That sounds like too little sleep by normal standards
: > for two year olds, but not so little that there aren't
2yos
: > who would do just fine on 10-11 hours of sleep. Does
her
: > behavior suggest to you that she might not be getting
enough
: > sleep (crabby at times, whirling dervish, easily
frustrated,
: > etc.)? If so, then I'd work on getting her to bed
earlier.
: > If she seems just fine with the amount of sleep she's
getting,
: > maybe it's time to see if daycare will cut back on the
: > afternoon nap.

: Or add to it. We had trouble with our now 28-month-old
waking
: early and displaying (too) many of the symptoms of
insufficient
: sleep. We asked daycare to let her sleep as much as
possible.
: She sleeps *more* at home as a result.

: This is very much a YMMV phenomena.

: Fwiw, I personally am in a state now that I would sleep
better
: and easier if I were getting more sleep. Of course,
toddlers
: have their own set of responses.

Often the quick reaction is to have daycare do away with
naps in the hope that the children will be more tired in the
evening and go to sleep earlier. However, from all that I
have read, this is generally not the answer to the problem.
On top of which, it can be quite a challenge to keep
children up from their nap at this age. I have three year
olds falling asleep in their lunch half the time and would
be horrified if I was supposed to 'keep them awake' (I
won't, by the way).

Sometimes shortening the nap and slowly moving up the
bedtime can be the answer. Having a consistent bedtime
ritual is recommended. If she is now going to bed at 10:00,
begin settling her 15 minutes earlier each night until she
is going to bed at a more reasonable hour. Once settled,
she should not be allowed to get up. Perhaps supply her
with some cuddly toys and books to keep herself occupied
until she dozes off. Obviously you cannot make her sleep,
but you can require her to remain in bed. Many times this
is a stage that will work through fairly quickly. Good
luck!
--
Ruth

[jojo]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> I don't know if your two year old is getting enough sleep, but mine
> needs more than yours is getting. My DS goes to bed at 8:00pm and is
> usually up around 7:00am. He takes a two hour nap most days (sometimes
> longer).
>
> In all, he gets around 13 hours of sleep a day.
>
> Jennifer in AZ
>

OUR ROUTINE EXACTLY

[Renee]

> Often the quick reaction is to have daycare do away with
> naps in the hope that the children will be more tired in the
> evening and go to sleep earlier. However, from all that I
> have read, this is generally not the answer to the problem.
> On top of which, it can be quite a challenge to keep
> children up from their nap at this age. I have three year
> olds falling asleep in their lunch half the time and would
> be horrified if I was supposed to 'keep them awake' (I
> won't, by the way).
>
> Sometimes shortening the nap and slowly moving up the
> bedtime can be the answer. Having a consistent bedtime
> ritual is recommended. If she is now going to bed at 10:00,
> begin settling her 15 minutes earlier each night until she
> is going to bed at a more reasonable hour. Once settled,
> she should not be allowed to get up. Perhaps supply her
> with some cuddly toys and books to keep herself occupied
> until she dozes off. Obviously you cannot make her sleep,
> but you can require her to remain in bed. Many times this
> is a stage that will work through fairly quickly. Good
> luck!
> --
> Ruth

Thanks to everyone who responded.

I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a half
hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a different
story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems to
calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the time,
she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then, she
fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband will
take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while he
works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of her
nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.

Renee

[Ericka Kammerer]

Renee wrote:


> I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a half
> hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a different
> story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems to
> calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the time,
> she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then, she
> fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband will
> take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while he
> works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of her
> nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.

I suspect you're correct in that. It sounds like she's
learned that resisting sleep with you leads to time with Daddy
and a later bedtime.
Out of curiosity, why the elaborate bedtime routine?
What would happen if you just read her a story and put her
down?

Best wishes,
Ericka

[[email protected]]

Renee wrote:
> I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings.
Does
> anybody have any suggestions?

No suggestions, but some company. :-) Our 2 1/2 year old goes to bed
most nights by 9:30, but it's not uncommon for him to stay awake until
11:00 in his room. He's skipping naps pretty routinely on weekends
now, and on weekends he'll go to sleep at a more normal 8:30, so at
least for us it does seem to be the case that skipping the nap works.

However, we *do* put him to bed at 9:30 even though we know he'll be
awake for another hour or so, and that at least means neither of us has
to be directly attending to him during that time. He usually
talks/sings to himself in bed, plays with a toy or two, whatever.

Beth

[Melania]

Renee wrote:
> I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings.
Does
> anybody have any suggestions?
>
> Renee

I couldn't tell you if she's getting enough sleep or not, but I do know
that my 2yo is usually asleep by 9 or 9:30. He might go down as early
as 7:30 if he's missed his nap or is sick. He sleeps to about 7 am most
days, so he usually gets about 10 hours of sleep at night and 2 more in
the afternoons. I'd like him to be asleep by 8:30, and that has more to
do with our timing of the bedtime routine than with his natural
inclinations.

Our bedtime routine is:
-bath (about 15 minutes long)
-nighttime diaper and pyjamas
-brush teeth
-into bed with sippy cup of milk (yes, yes, I know, bad, we're working
on reversing the milk and the tooth brushing!!)
-drinks milk while reading story, then hands over cup
-one of the stuffed animals turns off the light (dh's idea)
-tucked in with stuffed animals - all the animals get kisses and get
told something good they've done or accomplished today (dh has a great
imagination)
-ds gets told something good he's done or accomplished that day, and
gets kisses
-one parent sits on the floor inside the door till ds is asleep -
usually 10 minutes or so

The last step is part of an ongoing process: at first I was nursing him
to sleep, then just lying with him, then dh lay with him, then dh lay
on the floor right beside the bed, and now either of us can sit inside
the door. The next step will be to sit just outside the door (we're
waiting till this cold passes before starting), and then finally we'll
just leave him.

In the beginning, for about 2 weeks, he took up to 1.5 or 2 hours to
fall asleep with dh in the bed or on the floor, and he would often try
to leave the room. Now, however, usually he's asleep pretty quickly and
even if he's not sleepy, he lies in bed and sings, or plays with his
stuffed animals, and doesn't get up. We've made it clear that he can
stay awake, but he's not allowed to get up.

It usually takes 45 minutes from the time the bath starts, and the bath
should start at 7:45, but we've been lazy lately and have been starting
it too late, more like 8:15 or 8:30.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[P. Tierney]

"Renee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
> anybody have any suggestions?

No, but as far as your question in the subject heading goes,
it appears to be normal, though slightly on the low end.
According to one site
http://parentcenter.babycenter.com/refcap/preschooler/psleep/64915.html
Your childs sleep of 11-12 hours a night is within range, though
on the low end. It's about what my three year old gets, though
hers is all at night.

Your child will move away fom her nap at some point. Mine started
that when she was two years, four months. Perhaps when that happens,
she'll move to the 9pm-8am sleep hours that would work best for you.


P.
Tierney

[Renee]

Ericka Kammerer wrote:
> Renee wrote:
>
>
> > I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a
half
> > hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a
different
> > story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems
to
> > calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the
time,
> > she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then,
she
> > fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband
will
> > take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while he
> > works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of
her
> > nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.
>
> I suspect you're correct in that. It sounds like she's
> learned that resisting sleep with you leads to time with Daddy
> and a later bedtime.
> Out of curiosity, why the elaborate bedtime routine?
> What would happen if you just read her a story and put her
> down?
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

That's what we were doing, but she kept getting up. We just moved her
from the crib about a month ago. I thought maybe some more quiet
activities would calm her down.

Renee

[toto]

On 17 Mar 2005 11:00:39 -0800, "Renee" > wrote:

>I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
>10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
>morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
>gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
>asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
>her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
>anybody have any suggestions?
>
>Renee

I would try to make a different association for sleeping with her.
She is probably getting enough sleep if she isn't being cranky,
but you should check with the daycare folks to see if she seems
to be irritable after a certain time of day.

Suggestions here:

Make a real bedtime routine but one that isn't too long.
Our routine for dgd involves:

Milk or other snack about an hour or two before bedtime.
Bath. Teeth brushing. Hair brushing (she likes to count to 100)
We also use lavendar lotion on her and that seems to calm her
and help her sleep.
She climbs into her bed *all by herself,* snuggles down with
her pink blanket and some stuffed animals.
We read 2 stories (and one special story that is just a picture
album of all the animals she has seen at the zoo taken by
grandpa and put in A to Z order with their names on each
picture).
Then we have kisses goodnight for her and the animals
and the lights are turned out and the nightlight is turned on.
We then leave the room and she happily plays with her
animals for a bit and goes to sleep.



--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[shinypenny]

Renee wrote:
> Thanks to everyone who responded.
>
> I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a half
> hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a different
> story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems to
> calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the time,
> she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then,
she
> fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband
will
> take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while he
> works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of
her
> nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.

She wants quality time with her parents. It's not unusual for infants
and kids who spend the day in daycare to rearrange their sleep schedule
so that they are wide awake during the best part of their day - when
their parents are around.

What is the rest of her schedule like? What time do you drop her off
and pick her up from daycare, and how do the mornings and early
evenings proceed? Does your husband get home the same or a different
time?

The solution might be to slowly decrease the amount of time spent in
bedtime rituals, while increasing the amount of quality time you spend
with her in the other parts of the day.

For example, you might institute a "transition" ritual whereby you
spend an hour reading to her or enjoying some other activity as soon as
you get home and before you start dinner (or alternatively, in the
morning if you can swing that). During this hour give her your
undivided attention. It's not always easy to do, because dinner must be
cooked and there's chores to do, but I've found if I meet the kids'
needs for quality time first, then the evening goes much smoother for
everyone. Basically you'd be shifting the reading and cuddles from
bedtime to early evening. Bedtime is then not the time when she has
your undivided attention - she has already had that earlier.

jen

[Nikki]

Renee wrote:

> I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a half
> hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a different
> story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems to
> calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the time,
> she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then, she
> fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband
> will take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while
> he works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of
> her nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.


I wouldn' let her get back out of bed. She'll cry about that. I chose to
sit with mine when I made them stay in bed. It is reasonable to just make
her stay in bed while you leave the room too but it will be harder at first.
I wasn't up for that kind of battle but in the long run it probably would
have been better..... or at least easier for me because after the initial
learning curve/battle I'd be out of it :-) You could also consider the two
parts of your routine. You have the rocking chair part and the actually
putting to bed part. Have dh do one of those parts so that she gets her
daddy time. My kids didn't want their dad in the bedroom at bedtime until
they were a little older but they sure liked it if they got to sit with him
before bed.

--
Nikki

[hobbes]

"Renee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I usually will read or sing to her from a rocking chair about a half
> hour before bedtime. Then, when she's in her bed, I read a different
> story (over and over) while stroking her back or head. This seems to
> calm her down, and she starts to nod off. However, most of the time,
> she suddenly jumps out of bed. I think she's fighting sleep. Then, she
> fights me when I try to put her back into bed. Usually, my husband will
> take her at this point, and she'll fall asleep in his lap while he
> works on the computer. It could be that she thinks that is part of her
> nighttime routine. Maybe that's the problem.

Ah, sounds like your little girl really likes her cuddle with Daddy time,
and knows if she holds out long enough, she'll get it. Who wouldn't want to
fall asleep in their daddy's arms??? What if you would spend some time
reading and rocking, and then your DH could come in and do a little cuddling
there in her room. He could rock her, or just lie down with her a little and
tell her stories in the dark. OR you could convince him to take over the
bedtime routine, and get yourself some nice quiet time.

Kids do like routine, and the thing is, she has one. It's just not very
convenient. I would work on replacing it, but still make sure she gets the
attention and closeness she needs.

--
Jodi
SAHM to Oliver (4 years)
and Arwen (23 months)

[Nikki]

Renee wrote:
> I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
> anybody have any suggestions?
>
> Renee


I found with my youngest son that when I was strict about bedtime and a
bedtime routine he started to go to bed at a more reasonable hour...without
all the drama....after about 4 weeks. He also needed very clear
expectations. Our routine was brush teeth/jammies...read books in older
son's bed....move into his own bed for sleep. I chose to sit with him until
he was asleep which might not have been the smartest move. I had a bear of
a time just getting him to accept my sitting and not actually laying down
with him so I wasn't willing to go whole hog :-) I did make him stay off me
and in bed though which he wasn't to happy about at first. I moved his
bedtime up by 15 minutes every 4-5 nights until it was where I wanted it.
He was a tad older then your daughter when I started this. At 2yo I was
laying down with him but we started off co-sleeping.

I would not eliminate the nap but maybe they can wake him up after 2 hours
until you have your routine going. That hardly ever worked for me because
my kids were/are sort of crabby for awhile after the wake up on their own.
They are really hard to be around if you wake them up. We found it helped
to actually wake them up a little earlier in the morning....let them nap as
long as they wanted....and then it was easier to get them to go to bed in
the evening.

My boy clearly thrives on routines and clear expectations...and I'm looser
by nature so I've had to work on that. He is also very persistant at
fighting me on things and so I have to have a lot of resolve for things like
this. It helped though. When I started this it would take him at least 45
minutes to fall asleep and it finally went to more like 15 minutes. He also
started sleeping for longer stretches before waking up. I also new he
needed more sleep. Now that he is giving up naps he sometimes isn't tired
by bedtime. I can tell when and I let him get back up on those nights....or
let him go backdown stairs after stories.

I can tell when mine need more sleep. Luke gets hyper is just driven to do
naught things....he'll move from one thing to the next and get into mischeif
as if he can't stop himself. Both tantrum easily, don't eat well, fight
with each other. Hunter didn't get hyper but he would just look awful and
cling cling cling. Wouldn't play by himself. If your daughter is cheerful
and active all day she is probably getting enough. 3 hours seems like a
long nap to me so she is probably making up for it in the afternoon.


--
Nikki

[hobbes]

"Renee" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
> 10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
> morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
> gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
> asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
> her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings. Does
> anybody have any suggestions?
>
> Renee

DD is almost 2 and our bedtime routine starts around 8:00. Unless it's a
bath night, which usually happens around 7:30. It takes a while to get her
to sleep, though, so usually she's down by around 9, sometimes 9:30. She
wakes up around 7. Takes a 1.5 - 2 hour nap.

So your DD doesn't get THAT much less than ours, really. Some kids really
don't need as much. But I'd still try to fiddle with the nighttime routine
and see if you can't get her down earlier. It's not easy--we're constantly
honing ours, and it has been a concerted effort on both DH's and my part to
get her down more easily.

--
Jodi
SAHM to Oliver (4 years)
and Arwen (23 months)

[Penny Gaines]

toto wrote:

>>I have a two year old daughter that doesn't want to sleep before
>>10:30-11:00 most nights. Last night she was up until midnight. This
>>morning, like most mornings, she's up and cheerful at 7:30-8:00. She
>>gets about a 2-3 hour nap at daycare. The problem is that I'm falling
>>asleep at 9:00 because I'm 8 months pregnant. My husband will watch
>>her, but he's been trying to get some work done in the evenings.**Does
>>anybody have any suggestions?
>>
>>Renee
>
> I would try to make a different association for sleeping with her.
> She is probably getting enough sleep if she isn't being cranky,
> but you should check with the daycare folks to see if she seems
> to be irritable after a certain time of day.

You could change the routine to maybe you read one story, then a
cuddle with Daddy - I know you say he is trying to work, but if he
is doing a cuddle anyway, this might shorten the entire length of
the routine.

However, I think you said you were heavily pregnant? Make sure
whatever changes you make will work after the baby is born.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three