OT -- do you use your turn signal when no one is there to see?

[dragon]

I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
What about you? :-)

dragon

[Ericka Kammerer]

dragon wrote:

> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

I do. It's such a habit that I've found myself signalling
to turn out of my driveway ;-) Does the steering wheel actually
turn that far if the signal isn't on? ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

[dragonlady]

In article . com>,
"dragon" > wrote:

> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon
>

I always use them.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Brian]

dragon > wrote:
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

> dragon

I saw a car flip over three times when a driver did that. Be careful
out there.

[Jeff]

"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon

I always use my turn signals. Easier than trying to figure out if someone
is around to see them.

Is this a question like if a tree falls in the forest....?

Jeff

[Banty]

In article . com>, dragon
says...
>
>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>What about you? :-)
>
>dragon
>


I signal. I think it's best if it's an ingrained habit, just as strong as the
habit that makes me put on my seatbelt.

I never understood this idea that one shouldn't turn the signal on if no one is
there to see it. If the light blinks, and no-one sees it (existential question:
was it really blinking...? Kidding :-) SO WHAT?? Is there some cosmic
accounting of Unseen Wasted Turn Signal Blinks that at the pearly gates will be
held against anyone?

Also, what's the definition of 'no one to notice'? I've seen discussions where
folks think that, if no-one is behind one, it doesn't matter. But drivers in
all directions, and pedestrians, need to know drivers' intentions.

Banty

[dkhedmo]

By no one, do you really mean no one, or no other cars? As a pedestrian
and bicyclist, I get really annoyed when cars don't use their signals
and end up turning when I have been waiting to cross and could have had
plenty of time to go had I known they were going to turn. Grrr!

-Karen, who uses hand signals when riding the bike, mom to Henry almost
5 and William 11 months-

[Jeff]

"dkhedmo" > wrote in message
link.net...
> By no one, do you really mean no one, or no other cars? As a pedestrian
> and bicyclist, I get really annoyed when cars don't use their signals and
> end up turning when I have been waiting to cross and could have had plenty
> of time to go had I known they were going to turn. Grrr!
>
> -Karen, who uses hand signals when riding the bike, mom to Henry almost 5
> and William 11 months-

You still have to be really careful, because the drivers may have left
signals on or put the wrong one on.

But you appear to be alive, so I guess you figured this out. ;-)

Jeff

[Rosalie B.]

dragonlady > wrote:

>In article . com>,
> "dragon" > wrote:
>
>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>> What about you? :-)
>>
>> dragon
>>
>I always use them.

It's easier around here to use them when there's no one to notice. If
you are on the Washington Beltway and use your turn signals people
will automatically close up the gap you were intending to slot into.

I think that I almost always use them just as I almost always buckle
my seatbelt. I don't look to see if anyone will notice. If I don't
signal, that's not the reason.

[For the seatbelt I feel so guilty if I don't have it on that I
notice(*). Signal use or non-use does not cause me such a large
amount of guilt, so I don't notice as much. Plus for the last 4
months I've only drive about four times as I've been on a trip with dh
and he's done almost all of the driving so I'm not sure I remember
what I actually do.]

(*) I had a job before I was retired of checking on occupational
health in many workplace settings. One of the ones that I did a fair
amount of was funeral homes. I had to monitor formaldehyde levels in
the embalming area. One unfortunate case was a young girl who was
about the age of my granddaughter at that time. Her brother was
driving her somewhere, and she took off the seatbelt to get something
out of the back seat, and their car crashed and she was killed. Every
time I don't use my seatbelt, I remember that child.


grandma Rosalie

[Melania]

dragon wrote:
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't
bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon

I use my turn signal in the middle of broad daylight at an intersection
between two gravel roads on the flattest bit of the prairies, when I
can see about 20 kms in every direction and there aren't any HOUSES
around, let alone people or cars.

Yep, I really do.

Why? Because signalling is an automatic, reflex sort of thing, and if I
only did it sometimes, I think I'd be more likely to forget to do it in
the city sometime when it mattered.

Plus, my 2yo loves cars and is very very observant, and I want him to
see us being responsible drivers all the time.

Melania
Mom to Joffre (Jan 11, 2003)
and #2 (edd May 21, 2005)

[Pip]

I always use them.



--


Abby - 3rd Feb 2005 at 32 weeks
Jasmine - 21st Mar 2002 at 35 weeks


"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon
>

[Melania]

Jeff wrote:
> "dkhedmo" > wrote in message
> link.net...
> > By no one, do you really mean no one, or no other cars? As a
pedestrian
> > and bicyclist, I get really annoyed when cars don't use their
signals and
> > end up turning when I have been waiting to cross and could have had
plenty
> > of time to go had I known they were going to turn. Grrr!
> >
> > -Karen, who uses hand signals when riding the bike, mom to Henry
almost 5
> > and William 11 months-
>
> You still have to be really careful, because the drivers may have
left
> signals on or put the wrong one on.

About 20 years ago a woman in my hometown was killed, along with one of
her children, when she signaled to make a lefthand turn, noticed a semi
bearing down on her from behind, and moved over onto the right shoulder
to let him by without changing her signal. He, of course, moved over at
the exact same time, planning to go around her . . . my dad told me
that story while he was teaching me to drive, and it really stuck with
me.

Melania

[Nikki]

dragon wrote:
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

I use signals about 90% of the time. Not always do I signal out in the
country and stuff.

I knew a guy once that was trying to outsmart the cops. He turned his
lights off before turning onto his street. He was a good 6 blocks ahead
and this might have worked had he not signaled his turn, lol.
--
Nikki

[toto]

On 18 Mar 2005 13:53:30 -0800, "dragon" >
wrote:

>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>What about you? :-)
>
>dragon

I use it all the time because it's a good habit to have and it doesn't
cost me anything to do it.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Caledonia]

dragon wrote:
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't
bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon

I used to be about 80% compliant. Then I put my first bumper sticker on
my car, and am now 100% compliant, mainly because I don't want people
to think that people who support 'X' are a bunch of jerks.

Caledonia

[enigma]

"dragon" > wrote in
oups.com:

> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me
> and there's no one to notice whether I put on my turn
> signal, then I don't bother. What about you? :-)

yeah, i do, but it's an autopilot response, just like shifting.
i don't think about it, i just do it.
lee

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"enigma" > wrote in message
. ..
> "dragon" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me
>> and there's no one to notice whether I put on my turn
>> signal, then I don't bother. What about you? :-)
>
> yeah, i do, but it's an autopilot response, just like shifting.
> i don't think about it, i just do it.
> lee

My dad used to use his turn signal when he was turning into the garage (from
the driveway).

Jeanne

[Marie]

On 18 Mar 2005 13:53:30 -0800, "dragon" >
wrote:
>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>What about you? :-)

Nope! Also if I am in a turn-only lane I do not use my signal.
Marie

[[email protected]]

dragon wrote:
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't
bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon

Always, it's an autopilot response. I have to make a decision not to,
and it's more trouble than it's worth.

Besides, someone one told me -- signals aren't for the driver you see,
but for the driver you don't see.

I have had cars pop up where I thought there were none...

Rupa

[Barbara Bomberger]

On 18 Mar 2005 13:53:30 -0800, "dragon" >
wrote:

>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>What about you? :-)
>
>dragon

Yes, always..

Just as I use my seatbelt always even if its down one block to pick up
a kid.

Its a habit and one i want to keep

[P. Tierney]

"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't -- when no one is around
to notice, or when many people are and I might not see the
necessity. It isn't a deeply ingrained habit, so usage is fairly
random.


P. Tierney

[Banty]

In article >, Marie says...
>
>On 18 Mar 2005 13:53:30 -0800, "dragon" >
>wrote:
>>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>>What about you? :-)
>
>Nope! Also if I am in a turn-only lane I do not use my signal.
>Marie

So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?

Banty

[dejablues]

"Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang" > wrote in
message ...
>
> "enigma" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > "dragon" > wrote in
> > oups.com:
> >
> >> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me
> >> and there's no one to notice whether I put on my turn
> >> signal, then I don't bother. What about you? :-)
> >
> > yeah, i do, but it's an autopilot response, just like shifting.
> > i don't think about it, i just do it.
> > lee
>
> My dad used to use his turn signal when he was turning into the garage
(from
> the driveway).
>
> Jeanne


Parts of our road are really curvy (like 90 degree bends) and I often find
myself using the signal then!

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:17:12 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> wrote:

>
>"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>> What about you? :-)
>
> Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't -- when no one is around
>to notice, or when many people are and I might not see the
>necessity. It isn't a deeply ingrained habit, so usage is fairly
>random.
>
>
>
> P. Tierney

One of the most annoying things I have found since I moved is
the lack of signalling when people are turning here. We have
these streets with U-turns in the center because of canals in the
middle of the street for drainage. People don't signal and then
you get hung up behind them which is very annoying. If they
signalled you would have a chance to get around them and
not end up sitting in the left lane when your own turn might be
coming up next.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Sidheag McCormack]

I do. Doing it automatically takes less processing power than wondering
whether I should, it seems to me! My driving instructor tried to encourage
me not to when there was no need. I'm not sure why - maybe just as a check
that I was doing observations properly.

Also, it really annoys me when I'm a pedestrian and cars don't signal,
since knowing where they're going can make a difference more often than
most drivers seem to imagine.

Sidheag
DS Colin Oct 27 2003

[Penny Gaines]

dragon wrote:

> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

I always signal.

I've got a rather old copy of the (UK) Dept of Transport driving manual
here, and it includes the following comments about signalling:

"...they must be given in good time and for long enough for you to be as
sure as you can that other road users have seen and recognised them. You
must allow enough time for other road users to see your signal, realise what
you are going to do and take their own action".

Later on, when it discusses whether the positioning of your car is enough
guidance to other people: "not every other road user is another driver".

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Marie]

On 19 Mar 2005 05:08:01 -0800, Banty > wrote:
>So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
>Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?

Here, if you are in a turn-only lane, you have a turn light, and no
other cars will have a green light. So it is not a problem there. Not
many pedestrians either, and really I have never seen any in the
intersections where we have turn-only lanes. Those areas are too
crowded for people to even attempt to walk across the road.
Marie

[Nan]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:28:50 -0500, Marie >
scribbled:

>On 19 Mar 2005 05:08:01 -0800, Banty > wrote:
>>So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
>>Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?
>
>Here, if you are in a turn-only lane, you have a turn light, and no
>other cars will have a green light. So it is not a problem there. Not
>many pedestrians either, and really I have never seen any in the
>intersections where we have turn-only lanes. Those areas are too
>crowded for people to even attempt to walk across the road.
>Marie

We have the same here. However I prefer seeing people use their turn
signals, at it lets me know that they know what they're doing! I
don't like to assume they'll turn just because they're in a turn lane
in spite of knowing any possible accident would probably be their
fault. Much easier to avoid accidents than to assign blame.

Nan

[Clisby]

Nan wrote:
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:28:50 -0500, Marie >
> scribbled:
>
>
>>On 19 Mar 2005 05:08:01 -0800, Banty > wrote:
>>
>>>So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
>>>Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?
>>
>>Here, if you are in a turn-only lane, you have a turn light, and no
>>other cars will have a green light. So it is not a problem there. Not
>>many pedestrians either, and really I have never seen any in the
>>intersections where we have turn-only lanes. Those areas are too
>>crowded for people to even attempt to walk across the road.
>>Marie
>
>
> We have the same here. However I prefer seeing people use their turn
> signals, at it lets me know that they know what they're doing! I
> don't like to assume they'll turn just because they're in a turn lane
> in spite of knowing any possible accident would probably be their
> fault. Much easier to avoid accidents than to assign blame.
>
> Nan
>

Except that I never assume people know what they're doing when they use
their turn signals. I've been at too many intersections where an
oncoming car signals a left turn, and then blithely proceeds straight
through the intersection. I'll believe they're turning left when I see
them halfway through the turn.

Clisby

[Nan]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:00:50 GMT, Clisby >
scribbled:

>Except that I never assume people know what they're doing when they use
>their turn signals. I've been at too many intersections where an
>oncoming car signals a left turn, and then blithely proceeds straight
>through the intersection. I'll believe they're turning left when I see
>them halfway through the turn.

I also always wait until they're actually turning before I'll pull out
in front of them. I've had my turn signal stick before, so it's not a
stretch to think it happens.
I'm talking about center turn lanes on the arrow. *Most* people
obviously will only be in a turn-only lane if they intend to turn.
But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).

Nan

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"dejablues" > wrote:

> "Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang" > wrote in
> message ...
> >
> > "enigma" > wrote in message
> > . ..
> > > "dragon" > wrote in
> > > oups.com:
> > >
> > >> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me
> > >> and there's no one to notice whether I put on my turn
> > >> signal, then I don't bother. What about you? :-)
> > >
> > > yeah, i do, but it's an autopilot response, just like shifting.
> > > i don't think about it, i just do it.
> > > lee
> >
> > My dad used to use his turn signal when he was turning into the garage
> (from
> > the driveway).
> >
> > Jeanne
>
>
> Parts of our road are really curvy (like 90 degree bends) and I often find
> myself using the signal then!
>
>

Me, too. My kids think it's silly -- "Where ELSE are you going to go?"
-- but signalling for a sharp turl is just automatic, and I wouldn't
want it any other way.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Barbara Bomberger]

On 19 Mar 2005 05:08:01 -0800, Banty > wrote:

>In article >, Marie says...
>>
>>On 18 Mar 2005 13:53:30 -0800, "dragon" >
>>wrote:
>>>I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>>>no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>>>What about you? :-)
>>
>>Nope! Also if I am in a turn-only lane I do not use my signal.
>>Marie
>
>So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
>Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?
>
>Banty

I dont think Marie is from the US..in Germany, every turn lane has its
own lite. So wh ile I do it out of habit, it is not necessary.
Every left turn has its own light, and there is no "right on red"

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:48:31 -0600, toto >
wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:17:12 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>>> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>>> What about you? :-)
>>
>> Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't -- when no one is around
>>to notice, or when many people are and I might not see the
>>necessity. It isn't a deeply ingrained habit, so usage is fairly
>>random.
>>
>>
>>
>> P. Tierney
>
>One of the most annoying things I have found since I moved is
>the lack of signalling when people are turning here. We have
>these streets with U-turns in the center because of canals in the
>middle of the street for drainage. People don't signal and then
>you get hung up behind them which is very annoying. If they
>signalled you would have a chance to get around them and
>not end up sitting in the left lane when your own turn might be
>coming up next.


Are you in northern virginia, where most people think a turn signal is
an option item to be used when the mood strokes??

[Stephanie]

"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)
>
> dragon
>

Turn signals are as much a habit as breathing for me. I always do.

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:55:15 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
> wrote:

>Are you in northern virginia, where most people think a turn signal is
>an option item to be used when the mood strokes??

No, but it appears that folks here think that as well.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:

>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>
>Nan

We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
don't seem to see that as the thing to do.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Rosalie B.]

toto > wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>
>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>
>>Nan
>
>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.

Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
before you get back to where you were.

Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
with no advance warning.


grandma Rosalie

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:

>toto > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>
>>>Nan
>>
>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>
>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>before you get back to where you were.
>
>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>with no advance warning.
>
>
>grandma Rosalie

Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Nan]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
> scribbled:

>toto > wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>
>>>Nan
>>
>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>
>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>before you get back to where you were.
>
>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>with no advance warning.

Sorry, but I'm not buying it. It's not just a matter of maybe
upsetting another driver, but of possibly causing an accident. When I
drove from AL to SC to see ds graduate basic training, I got lost a
few times. I left the road I was on and found my way back just fine.

Fort Jackson is located near Columbia and I'm definitely not used to
driving in large cities. On the day ds was allowed to leave the base
we decided to go out to eat and to a mall. I took a few wrong turns
and still just pulled into a place I could turn around and got back in
the right place without much trouble.

Nan

[P. Tierney]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
> > wrote:
>
>>toto > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>
>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>
>>>>Nan
>>>
>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>before you get back to where you were.
>>
>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>with no advance warning.
>>
>>
>>grandma Rosalie
>
> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.

True, but those aren't the only two options.


P.
Tierney

[Marie]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 20:54:04 +0100, Barbara Bomberger
> wrote:
>I dont think Marie is from the US..in Germany, every turn lane has its
>own lite. So wh ile I do it out of habit, it is not necessary.
>Every left turn has its own light, and there is no "right on red"

I am from and in the US actually :o)
Marie

[Rosalie B.]

toto > wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:
>
>>toto > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>
>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>
>>>>Nan
>>>
>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>before you get back to where you were.
>>
>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>with no advance warning.
>>
>>
>>grandma Rosalie
>
>Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.

I disagree. I'd rather not have an accident, but an accident isn't
inevitable, if someone will let you back into the correct lane when
you signal.

And there are some areas of some cities where getting lost can result
in worse than an accident (which in the case of a city street will
probably only be a fender bender) - like some areas of Miami or
Washington DC, some places in south Philly, etc. Tourists have been
hijacked and killed in some of those places. I took a wrong turn off
the Schykill Expressway at night once, down by the navy yards, and it
took me about a hour of driving around in circles and stopping under a
light to read the map to find my way back (because it was an exit only
and I couldn't get back on again). Not something I would recommend at
all.

grandma Rosalie

[Bruce Bridgman and Jeanne Yang]

"Barbara Bomberger" > wrote in message
...>
>
> Are you in northern virginia, where most people think a turn signal is
> an option item to be used when the mood strokes??

Trust me, optional turn signals is not limited to No. VA. The metro Atlanta
area was also anti-turn signal - never really saw one. And the Triangle
area in NC, while better, also had plenty of folks who never used turn
signals.

I thought No.VA was pretty good.

Jeanne

[Jeff]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
> > wrote:
>
>>toto > wrote:
>>
>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>
>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>
>>>>Nan
>>>
>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>before you get back to where you were.
>>
>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>with no advance warning.
>>
>>
>>grandma Rosalie
>
> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.

But, are you more of a hazard in an unfamilar area, maybe pulling into a
drive way and backing out?

Jeff

> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Jeff]

"Barbara Bomberger" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 08:48:31 -0600, toto >
> wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 07:17:12 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"dragon" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>>>> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>>>> What about you? :-)
>>>
>>> Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't -- when no one is around
>>>to notice, or when many people are and I might not see the
>>>necessity. It isn't a deeply ingrained habit, so usage is fairly
>>>random.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> P. Tierney
>>
>>One of the most annoying things I have found since I moved is
>>the lack of signalling when people are turning here. We have
>>these streets with U-turns in the center because of canals in the
>>middle of the street for drainage. People don't signal and then
>>you get hung up behind them which is very annoying. If they
>>signalled you would have a chance to get around them and
>>not end up sitting in the left lane when your own turn might be
>>coming up next.
>
>
> Are you in northern virginia, where most people think a turn signal is
> an option item to be used when the mood strokes??

How does the mood stroke?

Anyway, in NJ, where the worst drivers in the US live, turn signals seem to
be an optional item, as well.

Jeff

[Jeff]

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...
> dragon wrote:
>
>> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
>> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
>> What about you? :-)
>
> I always signal.
>
> I've got a rather old copy of the (UK) Dept of Transport driving manual
> here, and it includes the following comments about signalling:
>
> "...they must be given in good time and for long enough for you to be as
> sure as you can that other road users have seen and recognised them. You
> must allow enough time for other road users to see your signal, realise
> what
> you are going to do and take their own action".
>
> Later on, when it discusses whether the positioning of your car is enough
> guidance to other people: "not every other road user is another driver".

It also helps if the other drivers aren't talking to someone, lighting up
cigarettes, putting on make up or otherwise not doing stuff that is
distracting the drivers' attention to the road.

> --
> Penny Gaines
> UK mum to three

[dejablues]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
> Anyway, in NJ, where the worst drivers in the US live, turn signals seem
to
> be an optional item, as well.

I guess you've never driven in Boston!

[dragonlady]

In article >,
toto > wrote:

> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>
> >But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
> >the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
> >should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
> >someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
> >
> >Nan
>
> We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
> mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
> wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
> figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
> don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

I will TRY to get into the correct lane if at all possible -- sometimes
rather aggressively -- when I'm in an unfamiliar area. It isn't so bad
here (CA), but when I was in Mass, if I ended up making a wrong turn in
an unfamiliar area, I was likely to end up lost forever! Honestly,
there are areas where you just can't get BACK to where you were.

However, if it's impossible without doing something dangerous, yes, I
turn anyway, and then just swear a lot.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Nan > wrote:

> >Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
> >especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
> >right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
> >with no advance warning.
>
> Sorry, but I'm not buying it. It's not just a matter of maybe
> upsetting another driver, but of possibly causing an accident. When I
> drove from AL to SC to see ds graduate basic training, I got lost a
> few times. I left the road I was on and found my way back just fine.

In some areas, it is much more difficult. I had more than one occassion
in Mass where I was lost for over an hour, because the road markings are
so poor.

And here, it is not uncommon to find that, by the time there's any
indication that you are in a "turn only" lane, traffic is already
stopped!

As I said, I don't do anything terribly dangerous, but I WILL be
somewhat aggressive to avoid getting lost.

(And, on the flip side, if I see someone trying to get back into the
regular lane -- or into the turn only lane -- I tend to do my best to
let them in.)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Marie]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:53:03 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:
>(And, on the flip side, if I see someone trying to get back into the
>regular lane -- or into the turn only lane -- I tend to do my best to
>let them in.)

I do that also. People can be so rude, can't they, it's not difficult
to let someone get into your lane. I make it a point to do so when I
see someone, to make up for all the people who have let me in front of
them (especially when I'm driving in an unfamiliar town)
I am a very calm driver, I'll smile at someone's stupidity before I'll
curse at them. Unless they pull out in front of me from a side road
going half the speed I am when I am too close to them, that really
****es me off. They tend to do that alot, I don't know if it's because
my van is white and harder to see, or what.
Marie

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 15:29:13 -0600, toto >
wrote:

>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>
>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>
>>Nan
>
>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.

I should also add that where I am, it is the LAW that when you change
lanes on the freeway, you need to use your turn signal.

Of course its also the law that slower trafic must stay in the right
and the left lane is only for passing...thank god

[enigma]

"Jeff" > wrote in
:

> But, are you more of a hazard in an unfamilar area, maybe
> pulling into a drive way and backing out?

that's where K turns are useful. *back* into the driveway &
turn...
lee

[Sue]

"Barbara Bomberger" > wrote in message
> I should also add that where I am, it is the LAW that when you change
> lanes on the freeway, you need to use your turn signal.
>
> Of course its also the law that slower trafic must stay in the right
> and the left lane is only for passing...thank god

We have that law too, but hardly anyone follows it. It is very annoying,
especially on the freeway and all of a sudden you have a car pulling in
front of you. People think our freeway system is the autobaun and can drive
any speed they like.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Nan" > wrote in message
> Sorry, but I'm not buying it. It's not just a matter of maybe
> upsetting another driver, but of possibly causing an accident. When I
> drove from AL to SC to see ds graduate basic training, I got lost a
> few times. I left the road I was on and found my way back just fine.
>
> Fort Jackson is located near Columbia and I'm definitely not used to
> driving in large cities. On the day ds was allowed to leave the base
> we decided to go out to eat and to a mall. I took a few wrong turns
> and still just pulled into a place I could turn around and got back in
> the right place without much trouble.

Sometimes, it's not that easy. Just because you had it easy, doesn't mean it
can be easy for everyone else. There are many roads here that the street
name is not marked. Someone would have a very hard time finding out where
they are if that particular road didn't have a name. I got into a left hand
lane just the other day by mistake. Luckily, there was no traffic coming and
I got over. If me getting back over would cause a problem, then of course I
don't do it. But, I do see the point of some roads being more difficult to
get turned back around. Nothing isn't as black and white as you would like
to believe. There are options one can take without resulting in an accident.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Barbara Bomberger" > wrote in message
> Are you in northern virginia, where most people think a turn signal is
> an option item to be used when the mood strokes??

My husband and I have a joke about people who don't signal. We say that the
turn signal must not have been an option on that particular model of car.
;o)

And just for the sake of this subject, yes I signal all the time. There have
been more than a few occasions where someone has appeared out of no where.
So to use the arguement when no one is around doesn't mean that it's okay.
Here, there are lots of people on bikes and walkers and they also need to
know which way I am going. To not use your signal is irresponsible, breaking
the law and just plain rude.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[toto]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:30:34 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> wrote:

>
>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>toto > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>>
>>>>>Nan
>>>>
>>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>>
>>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>>before you get back to where you were.
>>>
>>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>>with no advance warning.
>>>
>>>
>>>grandma Rosalie
>>
>> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.
>
> True, but those aren't the only two options.
>
>
> P.
>Tierney
>
If you swerve out of a left turn only lane or a right turn only lane
at the last minute, it is certainly more likely to cause an accident
than getting off the road and finding your way back is.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 01:15:35 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:

>And there are some areas of some cities where getting lost can result
>in worse than an accident (which in the case of a city street will
>probably only be a fender bender)

Here people swerve accross 2 to 3 lanes of traffic both in and out of
exit only lanes on the highway as well as swerving out of left turn
lanes to go straight when the light changes and the accident rate
seems higher than it was in Chicago where I saw that rarely.

I do think it is partly the fault of the highway system and not
marking the lanes far enough in advance, but I still think people
need to realize that their actions do have consequences for
other people who are driving properly.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:21:00 -0500, "Jeff" >
wrote:

>
>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
>> > wrote:
>>
>>>toto > wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>>
>>>>>Nan
>>>>
>>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>>
>>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>>before you get back to where you were.
>>>
>>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>>with no advance warning.
>>>
>>>
>>>grandma Rosalie
>>
>> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.
>
>But, are you more of a hazard in an unfamilar area, maybe pulling into a
>drive way and backing out?
>
Not if you know how to back out safely. How is that more likely to be
a hazzard than pulling into traffic from a turn only lane abruptly?

>Jeff
>


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 03:53:03 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:

>(And, on the flip side, if I see someone trying to get back into the
>regular lane -- or into the turn only lane -- I tend to do my best to
>let them in.)

I let them in too if I see it coming. But many of them don't signal
and they pull out just as the light is turning green without any
advance warning that they are trying to get back in.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 23:05:10 -0500, Marie >
wrote:

>I do that also. People can be so rude, can't they, it's not difficult
>to let someone get into your lane.

Have you ever seen a zipper merge?

Only in Seattle... <g>


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[shinypenny]

Sue wrote:
> "Barbara Bomberger" > wrote in message
> > I should also add that where I am, it is the LAW that when you
change
> > lanes on the freeway, you need to use your turn signal.
> >
> > Of course its also the law that slower trafic must stay in the
right
> > and the left lane is only for passing...thank god
>
> We have that law too, but hardly anyone follows it. It is very
annoying,
> especially on the freeway and all of a sudden you have a car pulling
in
> front of you. People think our freeway system is the autobaun and can
drive
> any speed they like.

Heh. The other day, I had a flat tire. I had no choice but to drive
about 10 miles on the highway on a donut to get home. I deliberately
stuck to the speed limit, in the right hand lane, and even put my
flashers on. Meanwhile, all these trucks and SUVs were whizzing by me
about 25 miles over speed limit or in many cases, more than that.

Some jerk came up behind me in an SUV, got impatient with me going the
speed limit with my flashers on, and cut around me in the breakdown
lane - without putting on his turn signal either! I almost about had a
heart attack when I realized there was a car broken down in the break
down lane up ahead. Luckily, the guy got around me fast enough, but it
totally freaked me out.

jen

[P. Tierney]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 00:30:34 GMT, "P. Tierney"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>toto > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nan
>>>>>
>>>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>>>before you get back to where you were.
>>>>
>>>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>>>with no advance warning.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.
>>
>> True, but those aren't the only two options.
>>
>>
> If you swerve out of a left turn only lane or a right turn only lane
> at the last minute, it is certainly more likely to cause an accident
> than getting off the road and finding your way back is.

Sure, but one can check the traffic before swerving quickly.
That one is seen swerving quickly does not mean that such
checking wasn't done. Also, getting lost in an unfamiliar area isn't
necessarily a "bit" thing. It certainly has resulted in dire consequences
for some people.

So, it isn't an either/or thing. Each possibility has a lot of
other variables to consider and possible outcomes, other than
getting a bit lost and causing an accident.


P. Tierney

[Nan]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:48:55 -0500, "Sue"
> scribbled:

>Sometimes, it's not that easy. Just because you had it easy, doesn't mean it
>can be easy for everyone else. There are many roads here that the street
>name is not marked. Someone would have a very hard time finding out where
>they are if that particular road didn't have a name. I got into a left hand
>lane just the other day by mistake. Luckily, there was no traffic coming and
>I got over. If me getting back over would cause a problem, then of course I
>don't do it. But, I do see the point of some roads being more difficult to
>get turned back around. Nothing isn't as black and white as you would like
>to believe. There are options one can take without resulting in an accident.

I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
was.
Yes, I have switched lanes if there is a safe way to do so, but I'm
talking about those really bad drivers that just plain cut out in
front of you without signalling and almost cause you to wreck.

Nan

[Banty]

In article >, Nan says...
>
>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:48:55 -0500, "Sue"
> scribbled:
>
>>Sometimes, it's not that easy. Just because you had it easy, doesn't mean it
>>can be easy for everyone else. There are many roads here that the street
>>name is not marked. Someone would have a very hard time finding out where
>>they are if that particular road didn't have a name. I got into a left hand
>>lane just the other day by mistake. Luckily, there was no traffic coming and
>>I got over. If me getting back over would cause a problem, then of course I
>>don't do it. But, I do see the point of some roads being more difficult to
>>get turned back around. Nothing isn't as black and white as you would like
>>to believe. There are options one can take without resulting in an accident.
>
>I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
>streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
>when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
>was.

Around here, often only the cross-streets are marked. As if to say to the poor
out-of-towner "you TURNED onto this street you should have already LOOKED to see
WHAT it WAS!" :-)

Banty

[Rosalie B.]

Dorothy, I think to a certain extent you are preaching to the choir.
There's all kinds of unsafe driving out there - I've seen someone get
onto the DC beltway and merge straight across 4 lanes of traffic
apparently without looking to see if there was anyone there or not.

Obviously, one should try to drive safely. But one of the things
about driving defensively is looking out for fools and idiots -
whether they use their turn signals or not. And that includes being
kind to people who get into the wrong lane, and not being so superior
because you wouldn't drive that way.

I personally would do all I could to avoid an accident. But, if I
know that a right turn or left turn only lane is coming up, I try to
be prepared for someone to be in it inadvertently so I can deal with
that. And if I'm the one in the wrong lane by accident, I can deal
with the honking and the fingers if it means I don't have to get lost
or taken out of my way or worse.

Banty > wrote:

>In article >, Nan says...
>>
>>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 08:48:55 -0500, "Sue"
> scribbled:
>>
>>>Sometimes, it's not that easy. Just because you had it easy, doesn't mean it
>>>can be easy for everyone else. There are many roads here that the street
>>>name is not marked. Someone would have a very hard time finding out where
>>>they are if that particular road didn't have a name. I got into a left hand
>>>lane just the other day by mistake. Luckily, there was no traffic coming and
>>>I got over. If my getting back over would cause a problem, then of course I
>>>don't do it. But, I do see the point of some roads being more difficult to
>>>get turned back around. Nothing isn't as black and white as you would like
>>>to believe. There are options one can take without resulting in an accident.
>>
>>I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
>>streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
>>when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
>>was.
>
>Around here, often only the cross-streets are marked. As if to say to the poor
>out-of-towner "you TURNED onto this street you should have already LOOKED to see
>WHAT it WAS!" :-)
>
Yes that was one of the problems with Boston. They only marked the
cross streets which meant that there was no way to tell what street
you were ON. That plus the streets meandering around at random.

IMHO, Washington DC, Boston and Pittsburgh are among the hardest
cities to drive in because they don't follow the grid pattern. I have
never quite understood why people seem to think that L'Enfant's street
pattern is so wonderful.

In Pittsburgh it's because of the rivers and hills - at least there
the drivers are pretty polite when people get in the wrong place.They
have various 'routes' in Pittsburgh to help people get around - the
blue route, the yellow route and the orange route (for instance). I
got a taxi from a downtown hotel once to go out to Castle Shannon (a
suburb) and the driver called the dispatcher to find out how to get
there, and the dispatcher didn't know - I had to tell him what I
remembered of doing it as a passenger.


grandma Rosalie

[Jeff]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 21:21:00 -0500, "Jeff" >
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 22:56:36 GMT, Rosalie B.
>>> > wrote:
>>>
>>>>toto > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nan
>>>>>
>>>>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>>>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>>>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>>>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>>>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>>>
>>>>Sometimes if you are unfamiliar with the area and get lost easily you
>>>>may rather make people upset than get lost. I get lost easily. And
>>>>if the turn is onto a limited access road it may take many miles
>>>>before you get back to where you were.
>>>>
>>>>Also the turn only lanes are not marked far enough in advance -
>>>>especially the right turn lanes - you are driving nicely in the far
>>>>right (for the US) lane and all of a sudden it goes around the corner
>>>>with no advance warning.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>grandma Rosalie
>>>
>>> Better to get a bit lost and take some time than to cause an accident.
>>
>>But, are you more of a hazard in an unfamilar area, maybe pulling into a
>>drive way and backing out?
>>
> Not if you know how to back out safely. How is that more likely to be
> a hazzard than pulling into traffic from a turn only lane abruptly?

Depends on the situtation. In many cases, I think you may be more likely to
cause a crash if you go on a road that you are unfamilar with than if you
switch lanes. It depends on how busy the roads are and where you are.

Jeff

>>Jeff
>>
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Jeff]

"dejablues" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Anyway, in NJ, where the worst drivers in the US live, turn signals seem
> to
>> be an optional item, as well.
>
> I guess you've never driven in Boston!

Actually, I have. I even did some work in Boston.

My brother used to work there in some hospital.

jeff

[toto]

On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:00:04 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:

>Obviously, one should try to drive safely. But one of the things
>about driving defensively is looking out for fools and idiots -
>whether they use their turn signals or not. And that includes being
>kind to people who get into the wrong lane, and not being so superior
>because you wouldn't drive that way.

I let everyone in. I have never honked at or given the finger to
another driver in anger. I have honked lightly to let another driver
know I was there though.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Rosalie B.]

toto > wrote:

>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:00:04 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:
>
>>Obviously, one should try to drive safely. But one of the things
>>about driving defensively is looking out for fools and idiots -
>>whether they use their turn signals or not. And that includes being
>>kind to people who get into the wrong lane, and not being so superior
>>because you wouldn't drive that way.
>
>I let everyone in. I have never honked at or given the finger to
>another driver in anger. I have honked lightly to let another driver
>know I was there though.

I wasn't saying that you honked or that you refused to let someone in.
I was saying that just because I'm in the correct lane and someone
else is not, and then does some boneheaded maneuver doesn't mean that
I'm a superior driver.

Also what I'm saying is - I do NOT think that if you find yourself in
a turn lane by mistake, that it is always BEST to go ahead and make
the turn - that's not always the safer option, or the only
possibility..


grandma Rosalie

[toto]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 01:21:19 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:

>toto > wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 20 Mar 2005 20:00:04 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:
>>
>>>Obviously, one should try to drive safely. But one of the things
>>>about driving defensively is looking out for fools and idiots -
>>>whether they use their turn signals or not. And that includes being
>>>kind to people who get into the wrong lane, and not being so superior
>>>because you wouldn't drive that way.
>>
>>I let everyone in. I have never honked at or given the finger to
>>another driver in anger. I have honked lightly to let another driver
>>know I was there though.
>
>I wasn't saying that you honked or that you refused to let someone in.
>I was saying that just because I'm in the correct lane and someone
>else is not, and then does some boneheaded maneuver doesn't mean that
>I'm a superior driver.
>
It doesn't have to do with being a *superior* driver. OTOH, if the
person who is in the correct lane isn't paying attention to the road
in the way s/he should, your action can cause that person to have
an accident. Might not hit *you* either, but might hit another car
or the shoulder or something else.

>Also what I'm saying is - I do NOT think that if you find yourself in
>a turn lane by mistake, that it is always BEST to go ahead and make
>the turn - that's not always the safer option, or the only
>possibility..
>
It seems to me it's always safer for the other drivers on the road.

It may not be safer for you if getting lost distracts you enough that
you cannot figure out what to do to return to your route.

One cool thing that works wonders is to get a GPS system either
hand held or in the car. When we moved, my dd got one and
believe me its a godsend because it is easy to get lost around
here when you don't know your way around. That wasn't a possibility
years ago, but wow, I love the technology.

>grandma Rosalie


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Nan > wrote:

>
> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
> was.

There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or that
there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
direction you need to go.

Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....

(I get lost a lot. It doesn't upset me too much most of the time, but I
can assure you that getting back to where you belong is often not as
easy as "just turn around.")

Anyone who has ever been lost in the Maze in Oakland will appreciate the
lengths to which I would go to get into the proper lane when I realized
I was in the wrong one when I'm in that area! One trip, I ended up on
Treasure Island several times before I managed to get back to San Jose.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[enigma]

toto > wrote in
:

> One cool thing that works wonders is to get a GPS system
> either hand held or in the car. When we moved, my dd got
> one and believe me its a godsend because it is easy to get
> lost around here when you don't know your way around. That
> wasn't a possibility years ago, but wow, I love the
> technology.

you do realize that having a GPS and a mapbook in your car
means you can be arrested as a terrorist suspect? add a
digital camera & your friends & family may be wondering about
your whereabouts for months...
lee <carries all three items>

[Penny Gaines]

toto wrote:

>>Also what I'm saying is - I do NOT think that if you find yourself in
>>a turn lane by mistake, that it is always BEST to go ahead and make
>>the turn - that's not always the safer option, or the only
>>possibility..
>>
> It seems to me it's always safer for the other drivers on the road.
>
> It may not be safer for you if getting lost distracts you enough that
> you cannot figure out what to do to return to your route.

Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are looking
for road signs.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Jeff]

"enigma" > wrote in message
. ..
> toto > wrote in
> :
>
>> One cool thing that works wonders is to get a GPS system
>> either hand held or in the car. When we moved, my dd got
>> one and believe me its a godsend because it is easy to get
>> lost around here when you don't know your way around. That
>> wasn't a possibility years ago, but wow, I love the
>> technology.
>
> you do realize that having a GPS and a mapbook in your car
> means you can be arrested as a terrorist suspect?

I really doubt this is relevent. Police can arrest you as a terrorist
suspect for a lot less.

> add a
> digital camera & your friends & family may be wondering about
> your whereabouts for months...

They may be wondering about your whereabouts for months anyway.

Jeff

> lee <carries all three items>

[Stephanie]

"Clisby" > wrote in message
hlink.net...
>
>
> Nan wrote:
> > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 12:28:50 -0500, Marie >
> > scribbled:
> >
> >
> >>On 19 Mar 2005 05:08:01 -0800, Banty > wrote:
> >>
> >>>So, everyone around you is supposed to just know it's a turn-only lane?
> >>>Pedestrians, traffic on the cross street, out of towners, everyone?
> >>
> >>Here, if you are in a turn-only lane, you have a turn light, and no
> >>other cars will have a green light. So it is not a problem there. Not
> >>many pedestrians either, and really I have never seen any in the
> >>intersections where we have turn-only lanes. Those areas are too
> >>crowded for people to even attempt to walk across the road.
> >>Marie
> >
> >
> > We have the same here. However I prefer seeing people use their turn
> > signals, at it lets me know that they know what they're doing! I
> > don't like to assume they'll turn just because they're in a turn lane
> > in spite of knowing any possible accident would probably be their
> > fault. Much easier to avoid accidents than to assign blame.
> >
> > Nan
> >
>
> Except that I never assume people know what they're doing when they use
> their turn signals. I've been at too many intersections where an
> oncoming car signals a left turn, and then blithely proceeds straight
> through the intersection. I'll believe they're turning left when I see
> them halfway through the turn.
>
> Clisby

I'm with you. On the other hand, if there is a turn signal AND a turn only
lane, and they match, my confidence goes up somewhat. DH says I drive like a
granny, but my record is a whole lot cleaner with my defensive driving style
than his is.

[Stephanie]

"toto" > wrote in message
...
> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>
> >But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
> >the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
> >should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
> >someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
> >
> >Nan
>
> We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
> mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
> wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
> figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
> don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>
>

Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do not
get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody completely
ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is riding
in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok I
don't really.

> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits

[Stephanie]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> toto > wrote:
>
> > On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
> >
> > >But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
> > >the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
> > >should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
> > >someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
> > >
> > >Nan
> >
> > We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
> > mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
> > wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
> > figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
> > don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
> >
> >
> > --
> > Dorothy
> >
> > There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> > that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> >
> > The Outer Limits
>
> I will TRY to get into the correct lane if at all possible -- sometimes
> rather aggressively -- when I'm in an unfamiliar area. It isn't so bad
> here (CA), but when I was in Mass, if I ended up making a wrong turn in
> an unfamiliar area, I was likely to end up lost forever! Honestly,
> there are areas where you just can't get BACK to where you were.
>

Anything goes in Boston AFAIC. It's all just paved over cow paths, and you
really can get lost for*ever*. Of course, the best thing to do in Boston is
not have a car, but that is another matter.

> However, if it's impossible without doing something dangerous, yes, I
> turn anyway, and then just swear a lot.
> --
> Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>

[Mary W.]

Stephanie wrote:

> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>>>
>>>Nan
>>
>>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>
>
>
> Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
> increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do not
> get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
> have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody completely
> ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is riding
> in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok I
> don't really.
>

Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?

Mary W.

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Stephanie" > wrote:

>
> Anything goes in Boston AFAIC. It's all just paved over cow paths, and you
> really can get lost for*ever*. Of course, the best thing to do in Boston is
> not have a car, but that is another matter.

I didn't actually live in Boston, but did like to go into the city to go
to the Children's museum, the Aquarium, and some other stuff. I also
went into the city periodically to meet with other professionals in my
field.

I left the car at a train station and used public transportation when I
could, but there were times when that wasn't practical -- when the kids
were very small, the thought of wrangelling two infants and a three year
old on trains, buses, and subways made getting lost in Boston sound not
so bad, and later, when they were in school, I had to get back to where
I lived before school got out.

Boston IS one of the cities that you can live in without a car. My
brother and his partner live in Cambridge now; they have a car for when
they want to go out of town, but most of the time it's just parked.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Nan]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:48:02 GMT, dragonlady
> scribbled:

>In article >,
> Nan > wrote:
>
>>
>> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
>> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
>> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
>> was.
>
>There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
>taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
>around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or that
>there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
>direction you need to go.

If you take the wrong exit then you're already in a position to have
to 'turn around' or travel to find the next entrance. That's basic
info taught in my driver's ed class eons ago.

>Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
>every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....

I wasn't talking about U-turns. I was talking about taking a turn
then finding a *safe* way back to the intersection.

Nan

[Nan]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 10:36:59 -0500, "Stephanie"
> scribbled:

>
>"toto" > wrote in message
...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>> >But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>> >the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>> >should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>> >someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>> >
>> >Nan
>>
>> We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>> mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>> wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>> figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>> don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>
>
>Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
>increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do not
>get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
>have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody completely
>ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is riding
>in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok I
>don't really.

I don't notice it around here, but I don't live in a large city. When
I was near Atlanta, I noticed it though.

Nan

[Jeff]

"Stephanie" > wrote in message
...

(...)

> Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
> increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do
> not
> get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
> have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody
> completely
> ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is
> riding
> in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok
> I
> don't really.

Here's why I always pull over:

You can't tell if the patient in the back of the ambulance (or who will be
in the back of the ambulance) is in critcal condition and the extra two
minutes that the lights and siron will make the difference between life and
death or life and limb.

I have already seen a patient come in come in in apparently good condition
and require intubation two minutes later. And we had a women come in and
deliver a baby in the elevator instead of the birthing room, because the
ambulance was delayed (it was a train, not a car, but you get the idea).

Plus you cannot stabilize a patient nearly as easily, surely or safely in
the back of an ambulance as you can in an intensive care unit or emergency
department. And if the patient was involved in a car crash, he might have
unsuspected abdominal breathing and crash real fast.

Whenever a police car, ambulance or fire truck goes by, I know know that
enough of the time, getting out of the way will mean less damage from a
fire, a person will be freed from a car that was in a crash a little sooner
or that the person in the back of the ambulance will get a few needed
seconds or minutes.. Getting out of the way makes it safer for me, for the
people in the emergency vehicle and for the other people on the road or
walking on the side of the road.

Plus, the sooner I get out of the way and the emergency vehicle goes by, the
sooner i get to get on my way again.

Jeff

[Rosalie B.]

"Mary W." > wrote:

>Stephanie wrote:
>
<snip>
>> Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
>> increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do not
>> get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
>> have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody completely
>> ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is riding
>> in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok I
>> don't really.
>>
>Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
>of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?

Most of the time when there is a problem it is with cars stopped at a
light. Be aware that if you try to let the ambulance through by going
through the red light, and if there is then an accident because
someone with a green light hits you, YOU will be at fault. At least
in this area. Getting out of the way of the ambulance by going
through a red light is not a legal option.


grandma Rosalie

[bizby40]

"Stephanie" > wrote in message
...
>
> "toto" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
>>
>> >But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
>> >the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
>> >should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
>> >someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
>> >
>> >Nan
>>
>> We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
>> mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
>> wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
>> figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
>> don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
>>
>>
>
> Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
> increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do
> not
> get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend? I
> have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody
> completely
> ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is
> riding
> in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well, ok
> I
> don't really.

Not here. Not only do people pull over for the sirens, but the
people following the ambulance will generally slow down to
let those who pulled over back in.

Bizby

>> Dorothy
>>
>> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
>> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>>
>> The Outer Limits
>
>

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

"bizby40" wrote:

: "Stephanie" wrote:

: > Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there
seems to be an
: > increase around here of people who ignore emergency
vehicles and just do
: > not get out of the way. Is this a local development, or
is it a wider trend? I
: > have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see
somebody
: > completely ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving.
I hope *that*
: > person is riding in an ambulance some day when someone
else refuses to
: > pull over. Well, ok I don't really.

: Not here. Not only do people pull over for the sirens,
but the
: people following the ambulance will generally slow down to
: let those who pulled over back in.

What lovely area do you live in?

Here in the Bah-ston (Massachusetts) area, many barely move
out of the way, and then if they do, will dart back into
traffic right behind the emergency vehicle so that they can
quickly follow in their wake.
--
Ruth B

[bizby40]

"Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote in message
...
>
> "bizby40" wrote:
>
> : "Stephanie" wrote:
>
> : > Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there
> seems to be an
> : > increase around here of people who ignore emergency
> vehicles and just do
> : > not get out of the way. Is this a local development, or
> is it a wider trend? I
> : > have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see
> somebody
> : > completely ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving.
> I hope *that*
> : > person is riding in an ambulance some day when someone
> else refuses to
> : > pull over. Well, ok I don't really.
>
> : Not here. Not only do people pull over for the sirens,
> but the
> : people following the ambulance will generally slow down to
> : let those who pulled over back in.
>
> What lovely area do you live in?

Charlottesville, VA -- consistantly ranked as one of the best
cities in America by various sources. We do have our share
of driving ninnies though. The biggest local problem is that
people always seem to think that "just one more" can squeeze
through the left turn light.

Bizby

> Here in the Bah-ston (Massachusetts) area, many barely move
> out of the way, and then if they do, will dart back into
> traffic right behind the emergency vehicle so that they can
> quickly follow in their wake.
> --
> Ruth B
>
>

[Nan]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 11:23:16 -0500, "Jeff" >
scribbled:

>Here's why I always pull over:
>
>You can't tell if the patient in the back of the ambulance (or who will be
>in the back of the ambulance) is in critcal condition and the extra two
>minutes that the lights and siron will make the difference between life and
>death or life and limb.
>
>I have already seen a patient come in come in in apparently good condition
>and require intubation two minutes later. And we had a women come in and
>deliver a baby in the elevator instead of the birthing room, because the
>ambulance was delayed (it was a train, not a car, but you get the idea).
>
>Plus you cannot stabilize a patient nearly as easily, surely or safely in
>the back of an ambulance as you can in an intensive care unit or emergency
>department. And if the patient was involved in a car crash, he might have
>unsuspected abdominal breathing and crash real fast.
>
>Whenever a police car, ambulance or fire truck goes by, I know know that
>enough of the time, getting out of the way will mean less damage from a
>fire, a person will be freed from a car that was in a crash a little sooner
>or that the person in the back of the ambulance will get a few needed
>seconds or minutes.. Getting out of the way makes it safer for me, for the
>people in the emergency vehicle and for the other people on the road or
>walking on the side of the road.
>
>Plus, the sooner I get out of the way and the emergency vehicle goes by, the
>sooner i get to get on my way again.

As someone who has had to ride in an ambulance as a patient:

Lights and sirens weren't used to transport me back *to* the hospital,
but they were used enroute to pick me up. And I can say that even the
short distance (less than a mile from the hospital) in which I could
hear the siren coming, the wait seemed interminable while I hung onto
my husband and didn't want to move out of fear of my intestines coming
out completely. It's very frightening to not understand what's
happening to you, or if you'll be okay and reassurance can come in the
form of seeing the ambulance arrive for you.

I've always moved for emergency vehicles in the past out of habit, and
am even more conscious about it now, for the reasons you mention.

Nan

[Stephanie]

"Mary W." > wrote in message
...
> Stephanie wrote:
>
> > "toto" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>On Sat, 19 Mar 2005 18:50:58 GMT, Nan > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>>But I've seen exceptions (almost got hit once, and got yelled at by
> >>>the offending driver that they didn't have their signal on, so I
> >>>should have "known" they weren't going to turn.... this was from
> >>>someone in a left-turn-only lane that was clearly marked).
> >>>
> >>>Nan
> >>
> >>We have plenty of folks who seem to get into turn only lanes by
> >>mistake and swerve over quickly when they realize they are in the
> >>wrong lane. I personally make the turn if I am mistaken and then
> >>figure out a way to get back to where I was going, but most people
> >>don't seem to see that as the thing to do.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > Since we are talking about bad driving techniques, there seems to be an
> > increase around here of people who ignore emergency vehicles and just do
not
> > get out of the way. Is this a local development, or is it a wider trend?
I
> > have seen it many times and it just makes me wild to see somebody
completely
> > ignore an emergency vehicle and keep driving. I hope *that* person is
riding
> > in an ambulance some day when someone else refuses to pull over. Well,
ok I
> > don't really.
> >
>
> Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
> of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?
>
> Mary W.


Worse, do they just not care?

[Banty]

In article >, Stephanie says...
>
>
>
>> >
>>
>> Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
>> of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?
>>
>> Mary W.
>
>
>Worse, do they just not care?
>
>

Mostly, it's distractions and very loud music in the car.

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote:

>
> What lovely area do you live in?
>
> Here in the Bah-ston (Massachusetts) area, many barely move
> out of the way, and then if they do, will dart back into
> traffic right behind the emergency vehicle so that they can
> quickly follow in their wake.
> --
> Ruth B

While there, I was almost rear ended a couple of times when I slowed
down to pull over!

The worst was at a stop light. The light turned green, but I could hear
sirens, and quickly saw that they were coming towards the intersection,
so, naturally, I stayed put. The guy behind me honked and swore. The
light turned red. Unfortunately, by the time the light turned green
again, ANOTHER set of flasing lights was headed my way. I thought the
guy was going to burst a vessel! He actually got out of his car and was
headed towards me with a pretty PO'd look on his face. Fortunately, the
intersection cleared about then nad I was able to get moving before he
reached me.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Nan > wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:48:02 GMT, dragonlady
> > scribbled:
>
> >In article >,
> > Nan > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
> >> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
> >> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
> >> was.
> >
> >There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
> >taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
> >around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or that
> >there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
> >direction you need to go.
>
> If you take the wrong exit then you're already in a position to have
> to 'turn around' or travel to find the next entrance. That's basic
> info taught in my driver's ed class eons ago.\

Do you understand that sometimes you end up in the wrong exit because
you discover you are in an "exit only lane"? That's what I'm talking
about -- not just screwing up and taking the wrong exit, but realizing
that you are in an "exit only" lane.
>
> >Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
> >every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....
>
> I wasn't talking about U-turns. I was talking about taking a turn
> then finding a *safe* way back to the intersection.
>

And I'm telling you that in some areas, that isn't easy to do. If you
don't already know the area, you can end up on streets where you can't
get there from here.

As I've said, I'll get lost before I'll make a truly dangerous move --
but if, by being a little more agressive, I can get into the proper lane
instead of risking getting lost, that's what I do.
> Nan
>
>
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

"dragonlady" wrote:

: "Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote:

: > Here in the Bah-ston (Massachusetts) area, many barely
move
: > out of the way, and then if they do, will dart back into
: > traffic right behind the emergency vehicle so that they
can
: > quickly follow in their wake.

: While there, I was almost rear ended a couple of times
when I slowed
: down to pull over!

Yep, sounds about right, unfortunately.

: The worst was at a stop light. The light turned green,
but I could hear
: sirens, and quickly saw that they were coming towards the
intersection,
: so, naturally, I stayed put. The guy behind me honked and
swore. The
: light turned red. Unfortunately, by the time the light
turned green
: again, ANOTHER set of flasing lights was headed my way.
I thought the
: guy was going to burst a vessel! He actually got out of
his car and was
: headed towards me with a pretty PO'd look on his face.
Fortunately, the
: intersection cleared about then nad I was able to get
moving before he
: reached me.

Driving here can be maniacal, emergency vehicles aside. The
road signs are confusing and poorly marked, and you can
really only drive safely here if you know where the heck you
are going. It can be a circular challenge :)
--
Ruth B

[Nan]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:13:21 GMT, dragonlady
> scribbled:

>In article >,
> Nan > wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:48:02 GMT, dragonlady
>> > scribbled:
>>
>> >In article >,
>> > Nan > wrote:
>> >
>> >>
>> >> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
>> >> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
>> >> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
>> >> was.
>> >
>> >There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
>> >taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
>> >around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or that
>> >there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
>> >direction you need to go.
>>
>> If you take the wrong exit then you're already in a position to have
>> to 'turn around' or travel to find the next entrance. That's basic
>> info taught in my driver's ed class eons ago.\
>
>Do you understand that sometimes you end up in the wrong exit because
>you discover you are in an "exit only lane"? That's what I'm talking
>about -- not just screwing up and taking the wrong exit, but realizing
>that you are in an "exit only" lane.

Sure, as I've stated, it's happened to me.

>> >Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
>> >every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....
>>
>> I wasn't talking about U-turns. I was talking about taking a turn
>> then finding a *safe* way back to the intersection.
>>
>
>And I'm telling you that in some areas, that isn't easy to do. If you
>don't already know the area, you can end up on streets where you can't
>get there from here.

I'm not claiming it's easy, only that it's safer to other drivers on
the road you'd have to turn off because you found yourself in the
wrong lane.

>As I've said, I'll get lost before I'll make a truly dangerous move --
>but if, by being a little more agressive, I can get into the proper lane
>instead of risking getting lost, that's what I do.

I'm still not buying getting lost is so prevalent. Rarely have I
found myself on a road I couldn't turn around safely to get back to
point A without getting terribly lost, unless I wasn't paying
attention.

Nan

[Stephanie]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Stephanie says...
> >
> >
> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
> >> of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?
> >>
> >> Mary W.
> >
> >
> >Worse, do they just not care?
> >
> >
>
> Mostly, it's distractions and very loud music in the car.
>
> Banty
>


I surely hope so. I am actually glad you said that, because I do not really
*like* having bad feelings toward my fellow homo sapien. (Almost wrote
"man.")

[Stephanie]

"Nan" > wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:13:21 GMT, dragonlady
> > scribbled:
>
> >In article >,
> > Nan > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:48:02 GMT, dragonlady
> >> > scribbled:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Nan > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
> >> >> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
> >> >> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where
I
> >> >> was.
> >> >
> >> >There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
> >> >taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
> >> >around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or
that
> >> >there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
> >> >direction you need to go.
> >>
> >> If you take the wrong exit then you're already in a position to have
> >> to 'turn around' or travel to find the next entrance. That's basic
> >> info taught in my driver's ed class eons ago.\
> >
> >Do you understand that sometimes you end up in the wrong exit because
> >you discover you are in an "exit only lane"? That's what I'm talking
> >about -- not just screwing up and taking the wrong exit, but realizing
> >that you are in an "exit only" lane.
>
> Sure, as I've stated, it's happened to me.
>
> >> >Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
> >> >every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....
> >>
> >> I wasn't talking about U-turns. I was talking about taking a turn
> >> then finding a *safe* way back to the intersection.
> >>
> >
> >And I'm telling you that in some areas, that isn't easy to do. If you
> >don't already know the area, you can end up on streets where you can't
> >get there from here.
>
> I'm not claiming it's easy, only that it's safer to other drivers on
> the road you'd have to turn off because you found yourself in the
> wrong lane.
>
> >As I've said, I'll get lost before I'll make a truly dangerous move --
> >but if, by being a little more agressive, I can get into the proper lane
> >instead of risking getting lost, that's what I do.
>
> I'm still not buying getting lost is so prevalent. Rarely have I
> found myself on a road I couldn't turn around safely to get back to
> point A without getting terribly lost, unless I wasn't paying
> attention.
>
> Nan

You are not me, it seems. I can get completely turned around in no time
flat. But I don't particularly mind driving around in circles either. :)

[Nan]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:47:36 -0500, "Stephanie"
> scribbled:

>You are not me, it seems. I can get completely turned around in no time
>flat. But I don't particularly mind driving around in circles either. :)

Lol, I actually found myself in the wrong lane approaching the
intersection while taking dd to preschool today. I kept going
straight (I should have turned) and we took the scenic route ;-)

Nan

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

"Stephanie" wrote:

: "Nan" wrote:

<snips>
: > I'm still not buying getting lost is so prevalent.
Rarely have I
: > found myself on a road I couldn't turn around safely to
get back to
: > point A without getting terribly lost, unless I wasn't
paying
: > attention.

: You are not me, it seems. I can get completely turned
around in no time
: flat. But I don't particularly mind driving around in
circles either. :)

In Upstate NY, where I spent my formative years, I would
agree with Nan, but out here in Boston, where I have lived
for 25 years, it is as simple as pie to get stuck in an exit
only ramp (and probably poorly marked, if at all) or unable
to detect an alternate on ramp or to find yourself in a
quagmire of streets that will never return you from whence
you came :)
--
Ruth

[Jeff]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...

(...)

> While there, I was almost rear ended a couple of times when I slowed
> down to pull over!

I was rear ended when I slowed down in a snow storm for a car ahead of me
that was making a left turn into a McDonalds. The driver in the car two cars
back wasn't watching. I heard skidding, then I heard a crash and felt a
crash. The drive at fault had his air bags go off. The car between use had a
lot of damage, too. My car was fine.

> The worst was at a stop light. The light turned green, but I could hear
> sirens, and quickly saw that they were coming towards the intersection,
> so, naturally, I stayed put. The guy behind me honked and swore. The
> light turned red. Unfortunately, by the time the light turned green
> again, ANOTHER set of flasing lights was headed my way. I thought the
> guy was going to burst a vessel! He actually got out of his car and was
> headed towards me with a pretty PO'd look on his face. Fortunately, the
> intersection cleared about then nad I was able to get moving before he
> reached me.

What an idiot!

Jeff

> --
> Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>

[toto]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:41 +0000, Penny Gaines
> wrote:

>Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
>if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
>somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
>might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
>at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are looking
>for road signs.

Pull over and get out the map. And going a bit slower is not
*dangerous* just annoying for the speed demons.




--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 16:41:16 GMT, Rosalie B.
> wrote:

>>Happens all the time here in Atlanta. Drives me crazy - which part
>>of siren and flashing lights don't you understand?
>
>Most of the time when there is a problem it is with cars stopped at a
>light. Be aware that if you try to let the ambulance through by going
>through the red light, and if there is then an accident because
>someone with a green light hits you, YOU will be at fault. At least
>in this area. Getting out of the way of the ambulance by going
>through a red light is not a legal option.

I don't think that it is a problem only with people stopped at a
light, but the law (in most states) reads something like this:

When approached (from the front or rear) by an emergency vehicle whose
light and siren are activated the driver of every other vehicle must
yield the right of way.

In yielding the right of way, you must drive immediately to the right
hand edge or curb of the roadway, parallel to the roadway, and clear
of any intersection.

You must stop and remain stopped until the emergency vehicle or
vehicles have passed, unless otherwise directed by a police officer.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Banty]

In article >, toto says...
>
>On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:41 +0000, Penny Gaines
> wrote:
>
>>Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
>>if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
>>somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
>>might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
>>at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are looking
>>for road signs.
>
>Pull over and get out the map. And going a bit slower is not
>*dangerous* just annoying for the speed demons.
>

'cept to use the map, first I need to know where I am. To know where I am,
first I need to know what street I'm on. Signs around here will tell me what
little cross-street I'm near, but what major street I'm already on is a Secret
for the Initiated..

Banty

[Banty]

In article >, Banty says...
>
>In article >, toto says...
>>
>>On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:41 +0000, Penny Gaines
> wrote:
>>
>>>Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
>>>if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
>>>somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
>>>might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
>>>at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are looking
>>>for road signs.
>>
>>Pull over and get out the map. And going a bit slower is not
>>*dangerous* just annoying for the speed demons.
>>
>
>'cept to use the map, first I need to know where I am. To know where I am,
>first I need to know what street I'm on. Signs around here will tell me what
>little cross-street I'm near, but what major street I'm already on is a Secret
>for the Initiated..

...then I pull into the closest gas station to ask them. Hurrah - the gas
station owner knows every single main *and* cross street!

- in Lahore.

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote:

> "dragonlady" wrote:
>
> : "Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote:
>
> : > Here in the Bah-ston (Massachusetts) area, many barely
> move
> : > out of the way, and then if they do, will dart back into
> : > traffic right behind the emergency vehicle so that they
> can
> : > quickly follow in their wake.
>
> : While there, I was almost rear ended a couple of times
> when I slowed
> : down to pull over!
>
> Yep, sounds about right, unfortunately.
>
> : The worst was at a stop light. The light turned green,
> but I could hear
> : sirens, and quickly saw that they were coming towards the
> intersection,
> : so, naturally, I stayed put. The guy behind me honked and
> swore. The
> : light turned red. Unfortunately, by the time the light
> turned green
> : again, ANOTHER set of flasing lights was headed my way.
> I thought the
> : guy was going to burst a vessel! He actually got out of
> his car and was
> : headed towards me with a pretty PO'd look on his face.
> Fortunately, the
> : intersection cleared about then nad I was able to get
> moving before he
> : reached me.
>
> Driving here can be maniacal, emergency vehicles aside. The
> road signs are confusing and poorly marked, and you can
> really only drive safely here if you know where the heck you
> are going. It can be a circular challenge :)
> --
> Ruth B
>
>

Yup. The rule seems to be, "if you don't know where you are, you have
no business being here."

I stopped to ask directions at a gas station shortly after we moved
there -- a common thing to do in the midwest. The kid behind the
counter looked at me and said, "What do I look like? A f***ing map?"

(As I recall, grace sat on me that day and I responded, "No, you looked
like a human being. My mistake.")
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Nan > wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 21:13:21 GMT, dragonlady
> > scribbled:
>
> >In article >,
> > Nan > wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 07:48:02 GMT, dragonlady
> >> > scribbled:
> >>
> >> >In article >,
> >> > Nan > wrote:
> >> >
> >> >>
> >> >> I've encountered the same situation many times... poorly marked
> >> >> streets. I do the same thing if I get lost or get in the turn lane
> >> >> when I'm supposed to go straight... make the turn and get back where I
> >> >> was.
> >> >
> >> >There are places where you can't do that: either you've inadvertenly
> >> >taken the wrong freeway ramp, and when you take the next exit to turn
> >> >around you discover that there's no entrance ramp at that exit, or that
> >> >there's no ramp going from the second highway back to the first in the
> >> >direction you need to go.
> >>
> >> If you take the wrong exit then you're already in a position to have
> >> to 'turn around' or travel to find the next entrance. That's basic
> >> info taught in my driver's ed class eons ago.\
> >
> >Do you understand that sometimes you end up in the wrong exit because
> >you discover you are in an "exit only lane"? That's what I'm talking
> >about -- not just screwing up and taking the wrong exit, but realizing
> >that you are in an "exit only" lane.
>
> Sure, as I've stated, it's happened to me.
>
> >> >Or on surface streets, every intersection is labeled "no U-turn", and
> >> >every street is one way, and there don't seem to be square blocks....
> >>
> >> I wasn't talking about U-turns. I was talking about taking a turn
> >> then finding a *safe* way back to the intersection.
> >>
> >
> >And I'm telling you that in some areas, that isn't easy to do. If you
> >don't already know the area, you can end up on streets where you can't
> >get there from here.
>
> I'm not claiming it's easy, only that it's safer to other drivers on
> the road you'd have to turn off because you found yourself in the
> wrong lane.
>
> >As I've said, I'll get lost before I'll make a truly dangerous move --
> >but if, by being a little more agressive, I can get into the proper lane
> >instead of risking getting lost, that's what I do.
>
> I'm still not buying getting lost is so prevalent. Rarely have I
> found myself on a road I couldn't turn around safely to get back to
> point A without getting terribly lost, unless I wasn't paying
> attention.
>
> Nan

When I lived in the mid-west, it didn't happen often, either. Try it in
eastern Mass., where you can literally drive miles without finding a
sign that identifies the street you are on. Here isn't as bad, since
the streets are pretty well labeled, and I can usually figure out where
I am and how to get back. And when I can't I use my "on-board
navigation system" (I call my husband, who is usually where he can look
on Mapqest.)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Rosalie B.]

Banty > wrote:

>In article >, Banty says...
>>
>>In article >, toto says...
>>>
>>>On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:41 +0000, Penny Gaines
> wrote:
>>>
>>>>Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
>>>>if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
>>>>somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
>>>>might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
>>>>at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are looking
>>>>for road signs.
>>>
>>>Pull over and get out the map. And going a bit slower is not
>>>*dangerous* just annoying for the speed demons.
>>>
>>
>>'cept to use the map, first I need to know where I am. To know where I am,
>>first I need to know what street I'm on. Signs around here will tell me what
>>little cross-street I'm near, but what major street I'm already on is a Secret
>>for the Initiated..
>
>..then I pull into the closest gas station to ask them. Hurrah - the gas
>station owner knows every single main *and* cross street!
>
> - in Lahore.
>
I pulled into a gas station in King of Prussia PA and asked the
attendant how to get to the PA turnpike which I knew was somewhere
nearby. The teenage boy's response was that he didn't know because he
couldn't drive.

grandma Rosalie

[Chookie]

In article . com>,
"dragon" > wrote:

> I've always wondered what others do. If I look around me and there's
> no one to notice whether I put on my turn signal, then I don't bother.
> What about you? :-)

Of course I do. That way I don't have to look around to see whether anyone is
watching -- I just have to look to see that nobody is *ignoring* it!

You wouldn't be from Canberra, by any chance? That's where the worst Aussie
drivers are supposed to be.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Chookie]

In article >,
Rosalie B. > wrote:

> One unfortunate case was a young girl who was
> about the age of my granddaughter at that time. Her brother was
> driving her somewhere, and she took off the seatbelt to get something
> out of the back seat, and their car crashed and she was killed. Every
> time I don't use my seatbelt, I remember that child.

Failing to put on a seat belt here will earn you a substantial fine (and the
driver too, if you are a passenger). That's if you're lucky, of course...

In southern NSW there is a very long, steep, winding road down the escarpment.
Unfortunately it's also a major route from Goulburn and Canberra to the South
Coast. Four kids died a few years ago when they lost control of their 4WD/SUV
and crashed. It wasn't the crash that killed them -- it was their being flung
completely out of the vehicle.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"In Melbourne there is plenty of vigour and eagerness, but there is
nothing worth being eager or vigorous about."
Francis Adams, The Australians, 1893.

[Penny Gaines]

toto wrote:

> On Mon, 21 Mar 2005 14:05:41 +0000, Penny Gaines
> > wrote:
>
>>Well, it might be safer for the drivers on the road you turned off of, but
>>if you are looking for a new route on the new road, your driving will be
>>somewhat unpredictable for the users of the new route. For instance, you
>>might be driving significantly slower then most drivers along the road, or
>>at the very least be concentrating less on the road because you are
>>looking for road signs.
>
> Pull over and get out the map. And going a bit slower is not
> *dangerous* just annoying for the speed demons.

Well, that's why you're driving slower: you're looking for somewhere to
pull over to look at the map.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Stephanie]

"Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote in message
...
> "Stephanie" wrote:
>
> : "Nan" wrote:
>
> <snips>
> : > I'm still not buying getting lost is so prevalent.
> Rarely have I
> : > found myself on a road I couldn't turn around safely to
> get back to
> : > point A without getting terribly lost, unless I wasn't
> paying
> : > attention.
>
> : You are not me, it seems. I can get completely turned
> around in no time
> : flat. But I don't particularly mind driving around in
> circles either. :)
>
> In Upstate NY, where I spent my formative years, I would
> agree with Nan, but out here in Boston, where I have lived
> for 25 years, it is as simple as pie to get stuck in an exit
> only ramp (and probably poorly marked, if at all) or unable
> to detect an alternate on ramp or to find yourself in a
> quagmire of streets that will never return you from whence
> you came :)
> --
> Ruth
>
>

I lived in Boston for years. My approach when I was young and foolish is
going to garner huge frowns. I went big and figured out the landing later.
Boston streets are all just paved over cow paths, it is a nasty warren. I
would press the gas peddle and.... as I say figure out the landing later. It
seemed what everyone was doing, so we all were on the same vibe. People
respected that more than any tenuous approach to driving.

[Ruth Baltopoulos]

"Stephanie" wrote:

: "Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote:

: > In Upstate NY, where I spent my formative years, I would
: > agree with Nan, but out here in Boston, where I have
lived
: > for 25 years, it is as simple as pie to get stuck in an
exit
: > only ramp (and probably poorly marked, if at all) or
unable
: > to detect an alternate on ramp or to find yourself in a
: > quagmire of streets that will never return you from
whence
: > you came :)

: I lived in Boston for years. My approach when I was young
and foolish is
: going to garner huge frowns. I went big and figured out
the landing later.
: Boston streets are all just paved over cow paths, it is a
nasty warren. I
: would press the gas peddle and.... as I say figure out the
landing later. It
: seemed what everyone was doing, so we all were on the same
vibe. People
: respected that more than any tenuous approach to driving.

Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depending on your
viewpoint) that is the modus operandi for driving in the
area. Whoever goes the fastest, is the most aggressive, and
has the 'biggest balls' wins. Tentative driving in some
areas of the city could end with horrifying results :)

When I was younger, I was *petrified* of being lost, but it
was because I had never traveled very much, and didn't have
the tools to deal with not knowing where I was or was going.
This area is not a good one for that type of mindset. All
these years of living here has relieved me of that worry,
and now I act as if I know where I am going even when I
don't, and enjoy the adventure!
--
Ruth

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Ruth Baltopoulos" > wrote:

> "Stephanie" wrote:
>
> : "Ruth Baltopoulos" wrote:
>
> : > In Upstate NY, where I spent my formative years, I would
> : > agree with Nan, but out here in Boston, where I have
> lived
> : > for 25 years, it is as simple as pie to get stuck in an
> exit
> : > only ramp (and probably poorly marked, if at all) or
> unable
> : > to detect an alternate on ramp or to find yourself in a
> : > quagmire of streets that will never return you from
> whence
> : > you came :)
>
> : I lived in Boston for years. My approach when I was young
> and foolish is
> : going to garner huge frowns. I went big and figured out
> the landing later.
> : Boston streets are all just paved over cow paths, it is a
> nasty warren. I
> : would press the gas peddle and.... as I say figure out the
> landing later. It
> : seemed what everyone was doing, so we all were on the same
> vibe. People
> : respected that more than any tenuous approach to driving.
>
> Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depending on your
> viewpoint) that is the modus operandi for driving in the
> area. Whoever goes the fastest, is the most aggressive, and
> has the 'biggest balls' wins. Tentative driving in some
> areas of the city could end with horrifying results :)
>
> When I was younger, I was *petrified* of being lost, but it
> was because I had never traveled very much, and didn't have
> the tools to deal with not knowing where I was or was going.
> This area is not a good one for that type of mindset. All
> these years of living here has relieved me of that worry,
> and now I act as if I know where I am going even when I
> don't, and enjoy the adventure!
> --
> Ruth
>
>

Yup. I never did get to driving as aggressively as most folks, which
Stephanie did (as did DH) and I know such annoying habits as driving the
speed limit and letting another car in in front of me upset the drivers
behind me. (Apparently, turning on your blinkers to indicate a desire
to change lanes is some sort of challenge -- many people seemed to do
their best to keep you from getting into your desired lane.)

However, I DID get pretty calm about being lost. Even after living in
the area for 8 years, I was lost a LOT. The only times I found it
upsetting were when it meant my kids would get home from school before I
got there, which THEY found upsetting. (Yes, they knew what to do and
there were several close neighbors to go to -- but it upset them the few
times it happened anyway.)
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Jeff]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
(...)

> Yup. I never did get to driving as aggressively as most folks, which
> Stephanie did (as did DH) and I know such annoying habits as driving the
> speed limit and letting another car in in front of me upset the drivers
> behind me. (Apparently, turning on your blinkers to indicate a desire
> to change lanes is some sort of challenge -- many people seemed to do
> their best to keep you from getting into your desired lane.)
>
> However, I DID get pretty calm about being lost. Even after living in
> the area for 8 years, I was lost a LOT. The only times I found it
> upsetting were when it meant my kids would get home from school before I
> got there, which THEY found upsetting. (Yes, they knew what to do and
> there were several close neighbors to go to -- but it upset them the few
> times it happened anyway.)

In New Jersey, drivers are not too bad about letting you into lanes when you
put on your turn signals. Despite this, New Jersey drivers tend to cut in
front of you.

I like driving in California a lot better.

Jeff
> --
> Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Jeff" > wrote:

> In New Jersey, drivers are not too bad about letting you into lanes when you
> put on your turn signals. Despite this, New Jersey drivers tend to cut in
> front of you.
>
> I like driving in California a lot better.

Me, too! I still get a kick out of people here complaining about the
awful drivers . . . apparently, 20 years ago Bay Area drivers were even
MORE polite than they are now.

We can get some pretty horrid rush hour traffic -- but even in traffic
jams, the attitude seems to be that you might as well sit back and
listen to your radio; getting agressive and honking your horn isn't
going to get you through it significantly faster, so why not make it as
pleasant as you can?
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Stephanie]

"Jeff" > wrote in message
...
>
> "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> ...
> (...)
>
> > Yup. I never did get to driving as aggressively as most folks, which
> > Stephanie did (as did DH) and I know such annoying habits as driving the
> > speed limit and letting another car in in front of me upset the drivers
> > behind me. (Apparently, turning on your blinkers to indicate a desire
> > to change lanes is some sort of challenge -- many people seemed to do
> > their best to keep you from getting into your desired lane.)
> >
> > However, I DID get pretty calm about being lost. Even after living in
> > the area for 8 years, I was lost a LOT. The only times I found it
> > upsetting were when it meant my kids would get home from school before I
> > got there, which THEY found upsetting. (Yes, they knew what to do and
> > there were several close neighbors to go to -- but it upset them the few
> > times it happened anyway.)
>
> In New Jersey, drivers are not too bad about letting you into lanes when
you
> put on your turn signals. Despite this, New Jersey drivers tend to cut in
> front of you.
>
> I like driving in California a lot better.
>

I will take Vermont driving any day of the week. California is one of those
states that is many different places. Driving in Los Angeles was pure hell.

> Jeff
> > --
> > Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
> >
>
>

[Banty]

In article >,
dragonlady says...
>
>In article >,
> "Jeff" > wrote:
>
>> In New Jersey, drivers are not too bad about letting you into lanes when you
>> put on your turn signals. Despite this, New Jersey drivers tend to cut in
>> front of you.
>>
>> I like driving in California a lot better.
>
>Me, too! I still get a kick out of people here complaining about the
>awful drivers . . . apparently, 20 years ago Bay Area drivers were even
>MORE polite than they are now.
>
>We can get some pretty horrid rush hour traffic -- but even in traffic
>jams, the attitude seems to be that you might as well sit back and
>listen to your radio; getting agressive and honking your horn isn't
>going to get you through it significantly faster, so why not make it as
>pleasant as you can?


Two out of three times I ever got rear-ended was in the Bay Area. The drivers
there aren't nearly as aggressive as some other places (like So. Cal - there
*is* a difference in different areas of California), but they're *SPACEY*. Each
time, I slowed up for normal reasons, then >>boom<<. The second time, it was
because I stopped at a stop sign! Knocked me forward. There were only two cars
in the whole area, me and him, and he ran into me.

He said "No-one stops at *that* stop sign"

Me : "well, *I* did"
Him: " So, why did you get out of the car?"
Me: "well, because you hit me, I want to check"
Him (still in his car): "But there's no damage"
Me: "I don't know, and you can't see if you don't get out, I'm checking"
Him: "I still don't know what the big deal is"
Me: "you hit me.."
Him: "yeah, so I don't know what the deal is"

Me: "it's like this, dude - you got in my space"

I exchanged info with him anyway.

Weird.

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Stephanie" > wrote:

> "Jeff" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > (...)
> >
> > > Yup. I never did get to driving as aggressively as most folks, which
> > > Stephanie did (as did DH) and I know such annoying habits as driving the
> > > speed limit and letting another car in in front of me upset the drivers
> > > behind me. (Apparently, turning on your blinkers to indicate a desire
> > > to change lanes is some sort of challenge -- many people seemed to do
> > > their best to keep you from getting into your desired lane.)
> > >
> > > However, I DID get pretty calm about being lost. Even after living in
> > > the area for 8 years, I was lost a LOT. The only times I found it
> > > upsetting were when it meant my kids would get home from school before I
> > > got there, which THEY found upsetting. (Yes, they knew what to do and
> > > there were several close neighbors to go to -- but it upset them the few
> > > times it happened anyway.)
> >
> > In New Jersey, drivers are not too bad about letting you into lanes when
> you
> > put on your turn signals. Despite this, New Jersey drivers tend to cut in
> > front of you.
> >
> > I like driving in California a lot better.
> >
>
> I will take Vermont driving any day of the week. California is one of those
> states that is many different places. Driving in Los Angeles was pure hell.


I've heard that. I should probably always specify that I'm talking
about the Bay Area, or Silicon Valley -- I understand southern
California can be a real nightmare!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Catherine Woodgold]

Marie ) writes:
> Nope! Also if I am in a turn-only lane I do not use my signal.
> Marie

When I'm in a turn-only lane I signal
(bicycle hand-signals). I also appreciate it
when others in turn-only lanes signal -- otherwise
I either wonder what they're doing, or don't
notice they're in a turn-only
lane (how shouyld I know? the turn-only
markers are placed to be
seen by the people in the lane,
not by everybody else).
Even if I'm familiar with the intersection I don't
find it easy remember to figure out who happens
to be in a turn-only lane.

But if I'm stopping at a red light or
a stop sign, I don't usually signal
that I'm stopping. Anybody behind me
ouight to be able to clearly
see the red light already.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> Besides, someone one told me -- signals aren't for the driver you see,
> but for the driver you don't see.
>
> I have had cars pop up where I thought there were none...
>

Yes, exactly!!

Someone made this point well in another newsgroup years ago,
and I've had the habit ever since of signalling
even when I appear to be alone at the
intersection.

To those who don't signal: Are you really sure that,
from now until the end of your life, there is never going to
be a time when you look around and miss seeing another
road user who is really there?

Before answering this, consider that other road users include:

-- motorcycles
-- bicycles
-- skateboarders suddenly entering the road sideways at high speed
-- joggers
-- wheelchair users going rather fast on the left side of the road
-- kids playing hide-and-seek suddenly running out from
behind a hedge
-- speeding cars coming out of side streets
-- rollerbladers
-- people running across the road fast at a funny
angle to catch a bus, chase a dog etc.

Also consider that at some time in your
life you may be driving while:

-- sneezing
-- having a headache
-- extremely short of sleep
-- having taken drugs for an illness
-- severely grief-stricken
-- suffering from a touch of Alzheimer's or maybe just
normal changes due to ageing -- slower reaction times, etc.?
-- conditions are both dark and rainy
-- someone is in your "blind spot"
-- etc.

Do you really think that every single time you're sure
there's nobody there, there will really be nobody there?

You can make a decision right now to do the turn
signal every tim for the rest of your life.

It doesn't cost anything. I think it's actually easier,
because you don't have to put energy into making
a decision about it -- you just do it
automatically.

You might argue: "Why should I worry about
illegal and unpredictable road users like kids
playing hide-and-seek or skateboarde
suddenly rolling onto the road? If someone
decides to use the road in an illegal way,
they're aware that they're making that decision, so it's up
to them to make sure they don't collide with
anybody -- and generally speaking, they do."

Without actually endorsing that point of view, I think
it has some logic to it.

However, note that the moment you decide
to not signal, you're putting yourself
in the category of an illegal, unpredictable
road-user. All of a sudden, you can no longer assume that
other unpredictable road-users that
might suddenly appear out of nowhere are
going to take the lion's share of
the responsibility to avoid a collision.
All of a sudden, you have to have a much-increased
level of awareness of things
like bicycles zooming
off the corner of the sidewalk,
people driving on the wrong side of the road or
too fast, etc
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Caledonia]

Banty wrote:
>
> Two out of three times I ever got rear-ended was in the Bay Area.
The drivers
> there aren't nearly as aggressive as some other places (like So. Cal
- there
> *is* a difference in different areas of California), but they're
*SPACEY*. Each
> time, I slowed up for normal reasons, then >>boom<<. The second
time, it was
> because I stopped at a stop sign! Knocked me forward. There were only
two cars
> in the whole area, me and him, and he ran into me.
>

I second this -- I learned to drive in Boston (well, Cambridge), where
people wield their cars. Aggressive, and uncommonly aware. Insults were
personalized, using the horn is a given. People weren't just letting
cars merge, they weren't letting *me* merge, and letting me know that.

When I lived in Northern CA (SF/SJ/Oak), there was no personal
interaction between drivers as everyone drove in their own little
bubble, protected from the world by their own little car. I learned to
always *hit the brakes* when I slowed down (on 880 or 101) instead of
just releasing the clutch because the drivers weren't really aware that
hey, that car ahead is slowing down. People would signal more, it's
true, but typically backed up without looking nor heeding the horn of
the driver in the parking lot behind them. There was also none of this
"I'll wave you through," stuff, which is a big part of driving here.
Never once experienced the wave through, or the high-beam flicker --
just placid drivers seemingly oblivious.

Drove me nuts, so I returned to the world of the rotary, the
disappearing right lane, and the world where yes, you can use the
breakdown lane in rush hour. Much more understandable to me.

Caledonia

[Caledonia]

Ruth Baltopoulos wrote:

> Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depending on your
> viewpoint) that is the modus operandi for driving in the
> area. Whoever goes the fastest, is the most aggressive, and
> has the 'biggest balls' wins. Tentative driving in some
> areas of the city could end with horrifying results :)
>
You mean it's not that the oldest car always has right-of-way? *Now*
you tell me :)

Caledonia

[Catherine Woodgold]

"Ruth Baltopoulos" ) writes:
> Unfortunately (or perhaps fortunately, depending on your
> viewpoint) that is the modus operandi for driving in the
> area. Whoever goes the fastest, is the most aggressive, and
> has the 'biggest balls' wins.

It seems to me that here in Ottawa, among
pedestrians, the faster ones get out of the
way of the slower ones, but in Vienna it's
the other way around: the fast walkers
expect slower walkers and stationary people
to get out of their way.

Maybe these two different modes occur for
car drivers, too.

The problem occurs when people who are
accustomed to different systems interact
with each other.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.