Help. Need some advice...Please.

[[email protected]]

I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
it will teach him how to behave. My opinion is that my wife needs to
teach or discipline him so that she can manage the day taking care of
the baby and him without all the whinning and tantrums. I really don't
want a day care worker to teach my son how to behave, I think it's the
parent's job. I would like to wait until he is 3 years old and potty
train before sending him to a pre school program and only for 1 1/2
hours twice a week. At 4 to 5 years, to pre school for 2 1/2 hours
three times a week.

My wife argues that it's in my sons best interest to send him to day
care. I don't agree and think that her reason is because she's having
a real tough time taking care of an infant (waking up in the middle of
the night) and a 19 month old all by herself. It's alot of work for
her and she's not getting enough sleep. But she insists that's not her
motivation for wanting daycare.

Thinking that her real reason is the tough work taking care of the
kids, I have been trying to help her by taking care of both the kids
when I get off from work, usually around 5:30pm until they go to sleep
at 9-10pm. I also feed the baby in the morning before I go to work
around 6 am. In addition we buy take out food everyday so she doesn't
have to cook, and I do all the chores, ie vacuuming, dishes (when I'm
home), mowing the lawn, and bathrooms. She basically takes care of the
kids when I'm doing the chores and am at work and she does the dishes
while I'm away and the laundry for everbody. She also wakes up in the
middle of the night to feed the 2 month old. Anyway, this hasn't stop
her from pushing daycare.

Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens when
the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it would
be very tough financially.

What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

Thanks.

[Tai]

wrote:

>
> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens
> when the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month.
> With just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it
> would be very tough financially.
>
> What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

I have similar age gap between my eldest two children and it was pretty
overwhelming for a time. Possibly as long as a year but definitely for the
first 6 months or so until the second bub was sleeping through the night. I
think a 19 month old would probably enjoy spending a day or two a week at
daycare, especially as 9am to 3pm aren't long hours and your wife would be
able to sleep while your baby napped and get a bit of rest during the day.
With the proviso that the daycare is good quality and your son settles in
well, etc. I probably wouldn't go for 5 days, though, unless your wife is at
risk for post-natal depression.

I wouldn't argue with your wife about *why* a bit of respite from each other
would be a good idea but it does sound like your wife might be able to cope
better if she gets some more rest. She may (wrongly) be feeling that she's
inadequate as a mother when really the problem is that no one is a good
parent if sleep-deprived.

Does your wife have a network of friends with similarly aged children with
whom she can arrange playdates? Any grandparents who'd love to babysit for
a few hours a couple of times a week?

What about the cost of hiring a regular babysitter to come in and take your
oldest boy out for a couple of hours? At this stage the reciprocal nature of
playdates might be a bit much for your wife while your baby is so young so I
would look for other *regularly scheduled* solutions that your son would
enjoy but that gave your wife a chance to catch her breath long enough to
enjoy relating to him again. And vice versa.

You do know this is a temporary situation, don't you? It will get better! I
do think it would be a good idea for her to speak to a sympathetic doctor
who is well-used to mothers of young children.

Tai

[bizby40]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
> 2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
> home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
> with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
> she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
> in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
> month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
> it will teach him how to behave. My opinion is that my wife needs to
> teach or discipline him so that she can manage the day taking care of
> the baby and him without all the whinning and tantrums. I really don't
> want a day care worker to teach my son how to behave, I think it's the
> parent's job.

When my second child was born, I was way overwhelmed. He was
actually a very good and easy-going baby, but my daughter, 2y9m old,
was *very* clingy and whiny and in need of massive amounts of
attention. It got bad enough that I went to a few "under 5s" counseling
sessions. I can't say that they helped much except to convince me
that jealousy really was the underlying cause of her behavior problems.
I hadn't thought so since she wasn't acting out against the baby. How
bad did it get? Well, she took to peeing on her floor if she was mad
at me. And once or twice she completely trashed her room. I was
really at my wits end.

I'm telling you this because it's easy to think "hundreds of millions of
people all over the world have more than one kid and have no problems
with it, why can't I (or she) deal with it?" So, I want you to know that
it isn't just your wife, or her lack of discipline or whatever. Bringing
home a new baby can cause *major* problems for the older child,
and of course, for their care giver(s).

Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you.
That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst
with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too
lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her.
He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but true.

> I would like to wait until he is 3 years old and potty
> train before sending him to a pre school program and only for 1 1/2
> hours twice a week. At 4 to 5 years, to pre school for 2 1/2 hours
> three times a week.

This paragraph struck me as very controlling. It's one thing to say,
"Wait until he's potty trained." It's another to try to dictate years in
advance how often and for how long he'll go.

> My wife argues that it's in my sons best interest to send him to day
> care. I don't agree and think that her reason is because she's having
> a real tough time taking care of an infant (waking up in the middle of
> the night) and a 19 month old all by herself. It's alot of work for
> her and she's not getting enough sleep. But she insists that's not her
> motivation for wanting daycare.
>
> Thinking that her real reason is the tough work taking care of the
> kids, I have been trying to help her by taking care of both the kids
> when I get off from work, usually around 5:30pm until they go to sleep
> at 9-10pm. I also feed the baby in the morning before I go to work
> around 6 am. In addition we buy take out food everyday so she doesn't
> have to cook, and I do all the chores, ie vacuuming, dishes (when I'm
> home), mowing the lawn, and bathrooms. She basically takes care of the
> kids when I'm doing the chores and am at work and she does the dishes
> while I'm away and the laundry for everbody. She also wakes up in the
> middle of the night to feed the 2 month old. Anyway, this hasn't stop
> her from pushing daycare.

It's great that you are helping out. You said the baby is only 2 months
old. As the weeks go on, he'll get on a better schedule, and she'll get
her routines down better, and be able to assume more of the load again.
Remember that in addition to caring for the two all day and interrupting
her sleep schedule at night, she's also been recovering her health and
strength after the pregnancy and birth of a child. She *is* pretty
exhausted right now, and it's completely understandable.

> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens when
> the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
> just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it would
> be very tough financially.

I don't think there is any reason to send a child this age to daycare.
Perhaps instead of just nixing the idea outright, you can find alternatives.
One idea might be to have a mother's helper come a couple of times
a week. She could perhaps watch the baby while your wife had
quality time with your older son, which might help offset some of
his jealousy and whining. Or maybe you can find a playgroup.
Or can sign your older son up for a toddler gym class or something.

Encourage your wife to get together with other mothers as much
as possible. Just getting out of the house will be a big relief for
her.

> What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

Understand that things will get better soon. Understand that your
son's whining and tantrums aren't so much a discipline problem
as an expression of anxiety. His world has been turned upside
down. He needs to be given as much love and attention as
possible. Understand that your wife's world has been turned
upside down as well. Make sure she knows that you love her
and support her, and think she's a *wonderful* mother.

Good luck.

Bizby

> Thanks.
>

[electroscopillan]

I'll just respond to a couple things.. ..give you my experience and opinion.
I'm a single dad of a 19mo ds too, fyi..

> wrote in message
ups.com...

> My opinion is that my wife needs to
> teach or discipline him so that she can manage the day taking care of
> the baby and him without all the whinning and tantrums. I really don't
> want a day care worker to teach my son how to behave, I think it's the
> parent's job.

I tend to agree with your opinion here, it really is the parents job, to
ensure consistency, and maintain a strong bond - which daycare could
potentially weaken, (though my situation is much different, and forces me
getting daycare right now). But then you say...

> My wife argues that it's in my sons best interest to send him to day
> care. I don't agree and think that her reason is because she's having
> a real tough time taking care of an infant (waking up in the middle of
> the night) and a 19 month old all by herself. It's alot of work for
> her and she's not getting enough sleep. But she insists that's not her
> motivation for wanting daycare.

You're probably correct, she's probably overwhelmed and possibly may be too
proud, or in denial about it. However.. ..if she says "it's in his best
interest", then maybe this is code for "I cannot handle all of this stress
(with whining/tantrums + baby) anymore, and feel like I'm in a losing
battle". And thus, maybe it really is in his best interest? Or, quite
alternately, maybe your wife needs to explain her reasoning to you, about
exactly *why* it is in his best interest to be in daycare. Maybe she thinks
that socializing him with other kids is a more important aspect to his
developement? I mean, there is a degree of balance involved here.

> Thinking that her real reason is the tough work taking care of the
> kids, I have been trying to help her by taking care of both the kids
> when I get off from work, usually around 5:30pm until they go to sleep
> at 9-10pm. I also feed the baby in the morning before I go to work
> around 6 am. In addition we buy take out food everyday so she doesn't
> have to cook, and I do all the chores, ie vacuuming, dishes (when I'm
> home), mowing the lawn, and bathrooms. She basically takes care of the
> kids when I'm doing the chores and am at work and she does the dishes
> while I'm away and the laundry for everbody. She also wakes up in the
> middle of the night to feed the 2 month old. Anyway, this hasn't stop
> her from pushing daycare.

Good for you.. ..some other dad's I know personally, lounge around the house
when they're home, and make more of a mess than anything else, (I get to
take it all on, but that's another story).

> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens when
> the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
> just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it would
> be very tough financially.

My 19mo son is currently in daycare M-F, 10am-6pm, while I work, and/or go
to school. I spend about 4 hours a day with him weekdays, and through most
weekends. Our bond hasn't weakened as far as I'm concerned - but is in fact
stronger, as I now have the energy and eagerness to expend on him that he
needs and deserves to recieve. My son is learning to socialize with other
kids/people, and gets to go on little field trips and excusrsions with other
kids nearly every other day. He's always full of eager hugs and smiles when
I come to pick him up.. .and falls asleep easily from all of the energy he's
burned off doing constructive things throughout the day.

Before I got him into daycare , the drudgery of struggling to get studying
done, or to fit in evening work on the weekends was daunting and draining.
I was frankly becoming very emotionally overwhelmed and needed a break from
his constant energy. (I recently acquired sole custody, whilst already
enrolled in classes, and have had to juggle my way through quite the
maelstrom as of late). When my ds' mother was around, things weren't much
better.. ..I was feeling emotionally drained, unfortunately, around my son,
and didn't feel like he was getting the best parts of my attention.

But he is now. =)

> What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

My best advice is.. ..talk to your wife. Find out what's going on, in her
mind. Maybe you guys can reach some kind of compromise with getting him
into more part-time daycare, or homecare, or something like that? I don't
know where you live, but a lot of homecare workers where I live will do very
part-time hours, and charge accordingly.. ..much cheaper. I know there are
some bad stories about homecare.. ..some people won't go near it. I just
went through someone I knew to be very reputable for some home-care for my
son in the past (which I needed to survive). I'm actually surprised that
you'd have to pay $500/mo for the hours you described, esp. if you live in
the states? (I'm in Canada) I pay $505/mo (CDN) for M-F, 7:30am-6:00pm
(which I choose to not fully utilize, so I can spend more time with my son).

[Penny Gaines]

wrote:

> I am having some trouble with my wife.

I think the real problem is that you have two babies (no matter how big
he seems compared to the 2mo, the 19mo is still a baby), and almost
everyone would find it hard to cope. You are probably both stressed out,
and it is possible your wife has postnatal depression as well.

> We have two boys, one is
> 2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
> home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
> with her, but not as much with me.

He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's probably
having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with you, you are not
also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is with your wife, she is
trying to look after another child too. That is, the reason you aren't
getting the tantrums is because he isn't jealous that the baby is stealing
his time with you.

> It's driving my wife nuts and now
> she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
> in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
> month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
> it will teach him how to behave. My opinion is that my wife needs to
> teach or discipline him so that she can manage the day taking care of
> the baby and him without all the whinning and tantrums. I really don't
> want a day care worker to teach my son how to behave, I think it's the
> parent's job. I would like to wait until he is 3 years old and potty
> train before sending him to a pre school program and only for 1 1/2
> hours twice a week. At 4 to 5 years, to pre school for 2 1/2 hours
> three times a week.

I don't think that is an unreasonable ideal for day care use: OTOH, you
aren't looking after him for the rest of the time, so you can look at it in
a different light to the way your wife is looking at it. Also, if she is
exhausted, she probably isn't thinking straight: maybe she would be happy
with shorter time, but doesn't think a daycare would offer it.

> My wife argues that it's in my sons best interest to send him to day
> care. I don't agree and think that her reason is because she's having
> a real tough time taking care of an infant (waking up in the middle of
> the night) and a 19 month old all by herself. It's alot of work for
> her and she's not getting enough sleep. But she insists that's not her
> motivation for wanting daycare.

One option she could consider is perhaps getting a mother's help for a
few hours a day. That way, the mother's help could take the older child out
so he isn't bored and give your wife the time she wants with the baby.

It's possible that your wife is feeling guilty that the baby isn't getting
the same attention that she gave the older one, and the only way she can see
to do this is to send the older one someone else.

[snip]

> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens when
> the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
> just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it would
> be very tough financially.
>
> What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

I think this is nothing to do with whether daycare is in the best interests
of your children, and has a huge amount to do with your wife feeling
exhausted, over-stretched and unappreciated. From what you have written,
there is a certain air of "look at *all* I do, and how little she does", and
if you discuss this issue with her like that, she probably feels you
don't appreciate that she may well be runing round trying to keep two
demanding little tryants happy, and have no idea what it is like for her -
and you don't. I'm not trying to belittle what you do, but when you have
a single baby, you get lots of time off- eg when the baby is napping - but
when you add the second child, you don't have that time off. She is on call
the entire time you are at work, she doesn't even get coffee breaks.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[Tomwaters]

Tai wrote:
> With the proviso that the daycare is good quality and your son
settles in
> well, etc. I probably wouldn't go for 5 days, though, unless your
wife is at
> risk for post-natal depression.

We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
provider
and the director at that school recommends all five days. They really
stress the learning value over child care. I just think 19 months is
a little too early to be so concerned about learning. Wife might have
some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
any
kids and her life is now miserable".


> I wouldn't argue with your wife about *why* a bit of respite from
each other
> would be a good idea but it does sound like your wife might be able
to cope
> better if she gets some more rest. She may (wrongly) be feeling that
she's
> inadequate as a mother when really the problem is that no one is a
good
> parent if sleep-deprived.

Good advice. Thanks.


> Does your wife have a network of friends with similarly aged children
with
> whom she can arrange playdates? Any grandparents who'd love to
babysit for
> a few hours a couple of times a week?

We have some friends with similar aged children, but they don't live
nearby.
We get together every two months or so on the weekend. Her parents
travel
alot and are not available at this time. Wife doesn't feel comfortable
with my parents and doesn't want me to ask them to help out.

> What about the cost of hiring a regular babysitter to come in and
take your
> oldest boy out for a couple of hours? At this stage the reciprocal
nature of
> playdates might be a bit much for your wife while your baby is so
young so I
> would look for other *regularly scheduled* solutions that your son
would
> enjoy but that gave your wife a chance to catch her breath long
enough to
> enjoy relating to him again. And vice versa.

We talked about that, but turned out too hard for us to find someone.
It
was easier just to look at licensed day care centers.

>
> You do know this is a temporary situation, don't you? It will get
better! I
> do think it would be a good idea for her to speak to a sympathetic
doctor
> who is well-used to mothers of young children.
>

I hope so. Thanks for your advice.

P.S. I'm new to usenet via google.com. How do I change the text color
when
I reply?

[Nikki]

wrote:

We have two boys, one is
> 2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
> home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
> with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
> she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
> in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
> month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
> it will teach him how to behave.

She's got to be exhausted physically and emotionally from meeting the needs
of two such young children. Make sure she knows she is a good mother. It
is easy to think someone else would do a better job when you are completely
exhausted and things aren't going well. It is expected that his behavior
will regress due to his age and a new baby. That is due to the situation,
not the parenting. It will get better.

She needs a break - regularly. A block of time (a couple hours) when she is
needed by no one nor responsible for anyone.

OK - to give some suggestions that are actually helpful ;-)

Daycare is one option. Other options are:

Hire someone to do the indoor and outdoor chores so instead of you doing
them, you can watch the babies. Watch them 100% for a couple hours. Have a
list of places you can go/things you can do with the babies so you can
sometimes leave the house. Your wife can sometimes leave to go to a restful
peaceful place, or do something she enjoys that isn't kid friendly. She can
lock herself in the bedroom and read/sleep/whatever.

Summer is coming. Hire a 14yo to come in 3 times a week for a couple hours
to watch the new baby. She can spend that time alone with the toddler.
That will be nice for both of them and his behavior will probably improve.

Sign up for some toddler classes or mom groups if any are available. That
won't be a break but it is sometimes helpful to have other woman of babies
to talk to.

--
Nikki

[Tomwaters]

electroscopillan wrote:

> You're probably correct, she's probably overwhelmed and possibly may
be too
> proud, or in denial about it. However.. ..if she says "it's in his
best
> interest", then maybe this is code for "I cannot handle all of this
stress
> (with whining/tantrums + baby) anymore, and feel like I'm in a losing
> battle". And thus, maybe it really is in his best interest? Or,
quite
> alternately, maybe your wife needs to explain her reasoning to you,
about
> exactly *why* it is in his best interest to be in daycare. Maybe she
thinks
> that socializing him with other kids is a more important aspect to
his
> developement? I mean, there is a degree of balance involved here.

I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
her
that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
because
he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
get stimulated and not bored. I don't want to send the child to
daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the
different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
kids go to day care from
toddler to kindergarden.

> Good for you.. ..some other dad's I know personally, lounge around
the house
> when they're home, and make more of a mess than anything else, (I get
to
> take it all on, but that's another story).

Thanks. I'm getting really tired, but I think she really needs a break
until things get easier.


> My 19mo son is currently in daycare M-F, 10am-6pm, while I work,
and/or go
> to school. I spend about 4 hours a day with him weekdays, and
through most
> weekends. Our bond hasn't weakened as far as I'm concerned - but is
in fact
> stronger, as I now have the energy and eagerness to expend on him
that he
> needs and deserves to recieve. My son is learning to socialize with
other
> kids/people, and gets to go on little field trips and excusrsions
with other
> kids nearly every other day. He's always full of eager hugs and
smiles when
> I come to pick him up.. .and falls asleep easily from all of the
energy he's
> burned off doing constructive things throughout the day.

Sounds like your a good dad. It's really hard being a parent,
especially
a single one. I'm not anti daycare because I think it's up to each
family's
situation. I think if my wife just can't take it, then we would have
to get day care help. Otherwise it won't be good for any of us. It's
amazing you can do all that and still go to school.


> I'm actually surprised that
> you'd have to pay $500/mo for the hours you described, esp. if you
live in
> the states? (I'm in Canada) I pay $505/mo (CDN) for M-F,
7:30am-6:00pm
> (which I choose to not fully utilize, so I can spend more time with
my son).

Yes in LA, that's the going rate...some a little more some a little
less.
We are thinking about a montessori school. The have full time care
from
6:00am-6:30pm and that would cost about $700/mo.

[Nan]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:10:02 EDT, "Tomwaters" >
wrote:

>Wife might have
>some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
>any
>kids and her life is now miserable".

Okay, this sets off the alarm bells. If she's saying things like
this, she's definitely overwhelmed, and most likely depressed.
I'd encourage her to talk to her doctor about post-partum issues and
see if she can get that part sorted.

Nikki also had some great ideas for easing the burden on both of you.
I think your wife does have a good idea bout your son interacting with
other kids, but it's not necessary to have that happen full-time, 5
days a week.... however, the alternatives, which would be for her to
get involved in a mom's group or storytime at the library, or a class
for him, is going to put even more burden on her at this point since
it would require her to become more active, as well.

Nan

[Banty]

In article om>, Tomwaters
says...
>


>I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
>her
>that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
>she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
>because
>he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
>get stimulated and not bored. I don't want to send the child to
>daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the
>different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
>don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
>kids go to day care from
>toddler to kindergarden.
>

She may truly see it that was, or it may really be because she needs a break, or
(most likely) some combination. Consider that women are socialized not to do
things for their own sakes, so we tend to couch our needs in terms of what
others' needs are. (Speaking in very broad and general terms, but I feel these
expectations every single day as a woman.) "It's best for the child" is seen as
more acceptable than "I need a break".

And she may need to see it that way - if you're insisting that it's only
necessary if it's for her sake, you may be putting her into a spot where she
either is 'selfish', or doesn't get her needs fulfilled.

With this in mind, lay out the options for daycare and/or preschool and discuss
from among these.

Banty

[Tomwaters]

bizby40 wrote:

> I hadn't thought so since she wasn't acting out against the baby.
How
> bad did it get?

Our older boy is really sweet. He actually like the baby and always
wants to go over and kiss him. His acting out begins with him wanting
my wife to play, sing, or do something with him. When she can't do
it, the acting out escalates without any let up until either she gives
in, or he is in a full blown tantrum.


> Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you.
> That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst
> with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too
> lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her.
> He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but
true.

That's probably true. I don't know if she can get him to change
his behavior, but I just think she should spend more effort on stopping
bad behavior rather than daycare. We must have gone to five or six
daycare places and call the children we saw were all in control.
When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants me
to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the
difference
is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy can't play with
you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look
at some books or toys, he usually stops.

>
> This paragraph struck me as very controlling. It's one thing to say,
> "Wait until he's potty trained." It's another to try to dictate
years in
> advance how often and for how long he'll go.

The years and times is because our community offers a popular program
for preschoolers and the age, time, and schedule is dictated by them.
I also believe at age 3 and above, the can start to talk and I would
feel more comfortable sending them to this kind of program for the
kid to play and learn to play with other kids.

> It's great that you are helping out. You said the baby is only 2
months
> old. As the weeks go on, he'll get on a better schedule, and she'll
get
> her routines down better, and be able to assume more of the load
again.
> Remember that in addition to caring for the two all day and
interrupting
> her sleep schedule at night, she's also been recovering her health
and
> strength after the pregnancy and birth of a child. She *is* pretty
> exhausted right now, and it's completely understandable.

Yes. I'm hoping thats the reason and it'll go away once things settle
down.


> I don't think there is any reason to send a child this age to
daycare.
> Perhaps instead of just nixing the idea outright, you can find
alternatives.
> One idea might be to have a mother's helper come a couple of times
> a week. She could perhaps watch the baby while your wife had
> quality time with your older son, which might help offset some of
> his jealousy and whining. Or maybe you can find a playgroup.
> Or can sign your older son up for a toddler gym class or something.

>
> Encourage your wife to get together with other mothers as much
> as possible. Just getting out of the house will be a big relief for
> her.

That's a good idea. We will try to look into something like gymboree.
Hopefully she'll meet other mothers and they can get together
during the day.


> Understand that things will get better soon. Understand that your
> son's whining and tantrums aren't so much a discipline problem
> as an expression of anxiety. His world has been turned upside
> down. He needs to be given as much love and attention as
> possible. Understand that your wife's world has been turned
> upside down as well. Make sure she knows that you love her
> and support her, and think she's a *wonderful* mother.
>

Thanks for your reply. My wife is a wonderful mother.

[Circe]

"bizby40" > wrote in message
...
> Also, you mention that he's whinier with your wife than with you.
> That too is very common. Children are very often at their worst
> with their primary caregiver. Not necessarily because she is too
> lax with him, but simply because he is most comfortable with her.
> He trusts her enough to fall apart in front of her. Strange, but true.
>
I wanted to second this (and third and fourth it, too). All three of my
children are much better behaved and whine/cry less when they are with my
husband than when they are with me alone or with both of us. I firmly
believe that this is because my husband is the "novel" parent because he's
at work much of the time, and therefore, the kids value their time with him
more and don't want to "mess it up" by having him upset with them or by
getting into trouble with him. By comparison, I am home most of the time and
*my* being upset with them or them being in trouble with me is old hat.

I know that my husband often thinks I'm lax when it comes to disciplining
them because of the difference in the way they behave when I'm around and
when I'm not. But the truth is, I enforce the boundaries and limits
*waaaaay* more than my husband does because I am around *waaaaay* more than
he is; it's just that he isn't here to see me do it because, well, he isn't
here!
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[[email protected]]

Tomwaters wrote:
> electroscopillan wrote:

> I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
> her
> that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
> she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
> because
> he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things
to
> get stimulated and not bored. I don't want to send the child to
> daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from
the
> different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
> don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
> kids go to day care from
> toddler to kindergarden.

I think you should not worry so much about the reason to send the older
child to day care. You seem to think she needs a break, and pretty much
everyone I know that has two kids that close in age has needed a break.
So in your mind, you are sending the child to day care because your
wife needs a break. She is sending him because he needs interactions.
So what, the end effect is the same.

Maybe your wife is rationalizing, and maybe she isn't. But there is
isn't much value in forcing her to admit she is rationalizing or making
her give up the day care idea if you think she needs a break.

And, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of having both kids in
day care 18 months from now. This decision you are making is not
forever -- you can revisit it later, reduce the number of days or
hours, decide to wait longer to send the younger child, etc. I think
the key thing with having a newborn is that with most things, you
should do what works for your family now, and not worry about undoing
it later. You do that when you need to.

Jan

[cara]

wrote:

>I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
>2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
>home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
>with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
>she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
>in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
>month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and
>it will teach him how to behave.
>
I think you should immediately assure her that you will find a solution
to the situation and make some compromises. She clearly needs a 'break'
from the demands of the two little guys at some point during the week,
and the 19 month old is likely the more demanding of the two at this
stage. Why not talk about trying daycare for 3 mornings a week to start
and then see if the additional days and times are really necessary. Or
a nanny or mother's helper like others have suggested. - anything that
gives her a little respite, chance to catch up on sleep and other things
she wants/needs to get done. My bet is that by giving her a break from
the kid(s), she'll start to feel more like pitching in around the
house. Sometimes spending a little money (ie: cost of a sitter or
daycare) and looking past semi-rigid views of who should be doing what
is really worth the mental health benefits for everyone involved,
particularly your wife.

cara

[dragonlady]

In article om>,
"Tomwaters" > wrote:

> she always insists that it's the best thing
> because
> he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
> get stimulated and not bored.

Many toddlers DO do better when they have other children around. If she
is isolated with the two kids all the time -- that is, no other children
around, no other parents around -- I can really understand how she
feels.

My own tendency is to accept people at their word, rather than trying to
second guess their "real" motivation. If that really is her primary
goal -- to get him around other kids and have the stimulation of a
different environment -- there may be other options to pursue, such
formal play groups (I used to go to one at a local community center
twice a week) or other mom/tot groups. There was also a local church
that had a once-a-week "mom's morning out" program, where the children
(all younger than school age) were cared for in one room with a paid,
professional care provider while the moms had a formal program (the one
I remember best was on flower arranging) followed by some informal time
together. Some friendships grew out of this, and I enjoyed both the
program and the break from my kids.

I started getting out and doing things with my three kids when the twins
were about six weeks old; my older child was past her 3rd birthday,
however, so it was easier than if she'd still been a toddler. It was
hard work, but for me it was worth it. I'm a classic Myers-Briggs
extrovert -- I need to be around other people to feel recharged; too
much time alone (and, frankly, being with an infant and a toddler is
about the same as being alone for THAT purpose) and I start to sink into
depression. My daughter enjoyed her time with other kids, and the
babies seemed pretty oblivious to whether we were at home or out and
about.

I wish I'd lived where I grew up -- I had cousins having kids about the
same time I did, and I know we'd have gotten together during the day.

Since at this point you and your wife disagree about day care, it just
makes sense to me to drop THAT discussion, and try to have a discussion
about what needs of your son's (and your wife's, if she's willing to
include that) are not currently being met, and try to research and
discuss other ways to meet those needs. You may end up agreeing that
day care is the best option -- or you may not. But I think framing it
as a discussion about how to get needs met, rather than whether or not
to send him to day care, is more likely to be a positive discussion.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Ericka Kammerer]

Tomwaters wrote:


> I think you're right about being overwhelmed. When we talked I told
> her
> that I won't mind sending the older child to daycare if the reason is
> she needs a break, but she always insists that it's the best thing
> because
> he needs to interact with other kids and be exposed to other things to
> get stimulated and not bored.

But if she admits that it's because she's overwhelmed,
then she's admitting to being an "inadequate" mother. She may
feel a need to frame it as something that's best for the child
in order to salvage some dignity for herself, especially if
she's struggling with postpartum depression. You may need to
tread very carefully to find a compromise solution.

> I don't want to send the child to
> daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from the
> different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
> don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
> kids go to day care from
> toddler to kindergarden.

The finances are a very viable concern. Clearly, it is
not necessary for your toddler to be in full time daycare for
him to be properly socialized. Equally clearly, having him
in daycare is not having strangers raise him and isn't some
sort of awful thing. Personally, while I'm not anti-Montessori
in general, I'd beware of buying into the notion that your
toddler really needs to be in it five full days a week. If
they're really pushing that, I'd be skeptical. I understand
that some Montessori schools push that, but honestly, the
child's only 19 months old. I rather suspect that something
short of full time (combined with appropriate care for
PPD, if your wife has it) will provide sufficient respite,
especially as the new baby gets older, at a cost that isn't
so burdensome to your family.
I wouldn't get too didactic about how many hours
when. Different kids are different and thrive on different
things. My third will go off to a 3 hour, 2 days/week
program just after she turns 2 years old. She's very
social and thrives on being around other kids and structured
activities and I'll be thrilled for her to have those
experiences while I get a few hours to get some other
stuff done without tending to the needs of a very active
toddler. I don't think it'll harm her a bit. In fact, I
think it will be quite beneficial for her, though I don't
think all 2yos need to be in such programs and some 2yos
won't really be ready for one.
I think you really have to separate out your issues
here. One is that your wife is overwhelmed, possibly
complicated by PPD. You've obviously tried to deal with
that by providing a lot of support while you're home, but
you can't really do anything about the long day while
you're gone. Some additional resources seem in order,
both to provide some respite and to evaluate whether
PPD is a problem. I don't think you can further address
the question of the toddler's needs until you make some
progress on the first set of issues. I'd be looking to
put a temporary situation in place until those can be
dealt with.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[Nikki]

wrote:

> I think you should not worry so much about the reason to send the
> older child to day care. You seem to think she needs a break, and
> pretty much everyone I know that has two kids that close in age has
> needed a break. So in your mind, you are sending the child to day
> care because your wife needs a break. She is sending him because he
> needs interactions. So what, the end effect is the same.

I think it does matter though. The mother needs a break no matter what. I
won't repeat my other post but if she is *really* truly concerned about her
19mo's behavior then I have two comments. First when really tired and
overwhelmed some woman don't think to clearly. They think that they are
shortchanging their kids and that someone else would do a better job. I
wouldn't want that to be the basis of a decision. Second, if the child is
having a hard time because he is adjusting to having a new baby and less
mommy time....sending him to daycare isn't going to fix that. Getting him
some one:one relaxed mommy time on a regular basis would go a lot further.
She may not think that way if she is really tired because she may already
think she is failing him. When I was still on maternity leave with my
second, I took swim lessons with my first. Now...that wasn't so brilliant
as the he would have much rather just hung out with me..we had a long drive
to town etc. but the fact that he had just me really did a lot for him. For
those first few months back at work I'd take an afternoon off every 2 weeks
and spend a couple hours with him before getting the baby. He loved it. We
also did some of that with dh and I. I do think it helped him. He happened
to be an easy toddler but with my second I did the same thing when he was a
toddler. That helped me because he was so difficult with me that some
relaxed one:one time helped *me* reconnect with *him*. Don't underestimate
the value of that time for both parties.

> Maybe your wife is rationalizing, and maybe she isn't. But there is
> isn't much value in forcing her to admit she is rationalizing or
> making her give up the day care idea if you think she needs a break.

I agree with that. Just give her a break...anyone would need it :-) The
plan for how best to meet the child's needs could use some discussion
though, IMO.

> And, I wouldn't worry so much about the future of having both kids in
> day care 18 months from now.

Very good point. Do it (or whatever plan is decided on) for 2-3 months and
re-assess then.

--
Nikki

[Irrational Number]

wrote:

> I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
> 2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
> home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying.

You have already gotten some good suggestions. I
just wanted to add a couple of things.

Sleep deprivation is a SERIOUS problem. In a healthy
person, it can cause paranoia and depression. In a mother
with two children under two, it can NOT be pushed away
by saying "she should learn how to discipline the children
and deal with it".

Have you actually walked in her shoes? Not just the before
work, after work, weekend thing... No, I'm saying, can you
take one week off of work and take care of the kids in the
same way that she is? If you cannot, then you must believe
her exhaustion.

And it's pretty clear that she will not admit that she's too
overwhelmed and she will keep saying it's in the best interests
of your older child, and in a way, that is probably true.

Regarding a 19-month-old in daycare... That's how hundreds
of thousands of people do it. If both parents work, then
the 19-month-old (AND the 2-month-old) is in daycare. It's
neither better nor worse, there are good and bad in every
situation; it's basically a choice.

I personally think it would be a good thing for your family
dynamics. The cost will not always be the same; as children
grow older, childcare costs go down. (Well, not childcare,
but the amount you pay to a daycare.) Plus, by the time
your infant is about 2 years old, your older child is likely
in preschool and, later on, kindergarten.

-- Anita --

[dragonlady]

In article . com>,
"Tomwaters" > wrote:

> Wife might have
> some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
> any
> kids and her life is now miserable".

*Might* have some depression?

I'd say she definately does.

This comment makes me feel pretty confident that your wife should be
seeing a therapist, someone who can evaluate the level of depression and
figure out what to do about it.
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Circe]

"Tomwaters" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Wife might have
> some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
> any kids and her life is now miserable".
>
You need to get your wife to her OB or primary care provider for an
evaluation ASAP. This sounds like a very likely symptom of post-partum
depression to me and that should be looked into immediately.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Rosalie B.]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>>I am having some trouble with my wife.

This initial phrase quite put me off of your post. You aren't really
having trouble with your wife, but the fact that you characterize it
this way puts my back up.

>> Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
>> with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts

It would drive me nuts too. And the fact that you apparently think it
is her failure that leads him to behave that way increases my distaste
for your POV.

>> she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
>> in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week. It costs about $500 a
>> month. She says it will be good for him because he is bore at home and

This sounds like it is money that is your primary concern here, and
not your wife or your older son. Another black mark for you.

However, I don't think a child that age needs pre-school, and
especially not for that long. The fact that she says that he is a
bore at home sounds like she's at her wits end with him, and having
him behave better for you is probably not helping.

>> it will teach him how to behave. My opinion is that my wife needs to
>> teach or discipline him so that she can manage the day taking care of
>> the baby and him without all the whinning and tantrums. I really don't
>> want a day care worker to teach my son how to behave, I think it's the
>> parent's job.

So it is. But it can be the day care provider's job too.

I quite agree with everyone who says your wife needs a break, but
maybe also both of you need an attitude adjustment. You in your
attitude toward what your wife should be able to do, and your wife in
her attitude toward the older child.

grandma Rosalie

[Ericka Kammerer]

Tomwaters wrote:


> That's probably true. I don't know if she can get him to change
> his behavior, but I just think she should spend more effort on stopping
> bad behavior rather than daycare. We must have gone to five or six
> daycare places and call the children we saw were all in control.

But you know, a bunch of those kids go home and get
*out* of control when they're home. You can't always tell
how kids are in one environment by looking at them in another.
At school, those kids aren't in competition with their siblings
for the attention of their primary caregiver. That makes a
world of difference. That's not to say that your wife couldn't
find more successful ways to deal with the toddler's jealousy,
but it's not an easy or simple problem--and it's one that is
the most difficult to handle when you *are* the primary caregiver.

> When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants me
> to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the
> difference
> is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy can't play with
> you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look
> at some books or toys, he usually stops.

But again, you're not the primary caregiver. You haven't
been stolen from him in the same way that his mother has. He's
always shared you with work and with his mother, but his perception
is likely that before, he had his mother largely to himself.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[[email protected]]

Nikki wrote:
> wrote:
>. Second, if the child is
> having a hard time because he is adjusting to having a new baby and
less
> mommy time....sending him to daycare isn't going to fix that.
Getting him
> some one:one relaxed mommy time on a regular basis would go a lot
further.

You are right -- I forgot about the 19 month old behavior issue. My
kids were further apart, but when my then 3.5 year old was having some
behavior problems, but mother (who watches them while I work part time)
really tried to push me to put the baby in day care part time rather
than the older one because the baby wouldn't notice so much and the
older one needed 1-1 mommy or grandma time and some time away from the
baby.

I didn't do it -- I couldn't see putting my then 4 month old in day
care when it wasn't necessary. A two month old would be even harder. I
think it is a valid perspective though. If the OP's wife could pump
some and hire a sitter to watch the baby for an hour or two
occasionally, she could focus energy on the older one. This will feel
like a break to her, and would help the older one a lot.

Jan

[[email protected]]

Tomwaters wrote:

I don't want to send the child to
> daycare for that reason because I think it's too early. Aside from
the
> different view point about whether it's good for him or not, I just
> don't think we can afford it on a permanent basis, especially if both
> kids go to day care from toddler to kindergarden.

Different kids are different. One of mine was dead keen to go to
preschool from 19 months and it was great. The other was less
interested. I really thought my older one benefited from being with
other kids at that age. Maybe yours would, too.

Affordability is a different issue, and I guess it depends to some
extent on your priorities. You might want to talk it over with your
wife and figure how you can work it.

I would personally really worry about over-ruling a primary caregiver
on this issue.

Rupa

[Dawn]

I'm going to be uncharacteristically brief (google me to see how
long-winded I can be!). It doesn't matter why she says or thinks she
needs relief -- she needs relief. It sounds to me like she's feeling
kind of desperate, and I think when our spouses reach that point it's
usually best to let them go with what they think will help. Can you
afford $1500 for a three-month experiment with the daycare? You'll all
have clearer heads after a break, and a good preschool (one that is
accredited or certified -- Montessori would certainly qualifiy in my
book) is a good alternative.

If she does have PDD, she may not be able to even realize or admit it
until she gets some ongoing relief and realizes the reason for her
feelings are internal rather than external.

Let her have her way on this, for now, in order to help her sort out
whether there is more to it.

[shinypenny]

wrote:
> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare
monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens
when
> the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
> just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it
would
> be very tough financially.
>
> What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?

When my 2nd was born, my first was only 19 months old, so I can relate
to your situation! I also understand what your wife is going through,
and how exhausted she must be. Kudos to you for being understanding and
pulling a lot of weight around the house.

IMO, the 19 month old is probably experiencing sibling rivalry and
needs mom's attention. Sending him off to full-time daycare might not
be the best strategy here, although it might not hurt to sign him up
for one or two half-days per week.

Alternatively, why not take part of that $500 you don't mind spending,
and sign up a mother's helper to come into the house during the day, or
at least part of the day?

I'd recommend that initially the mother's helper pitch in with running
the household so mom has more time to give attention to both kids, and
taking the baby off mom's hands from time to time during the day, so
mom can spend more one-on-one time with your son. I do not recommend
the mother's helper taking the son off mom's hands - this can backfire
and make your son even more needy for mom.

jen

[shinypenny]

Tai wrote:
> What about the cost of hiring a regular babysitter to come in and
take your
> oldest boy out for a couple of hours?

Hmm, I dunno, Tai. When DD2 was born, the grandparents were all very
well-intentioned, attempting to take DD1 off my hands so I could
concentrate on the baby. All it did was make DD1 (then also only 19
months old) very, very anxious and needy for her mother!

I found this rivarly/needy stage went very quickly once I adopted a few
practices:

1) I always made room for DD1 to sit on my other knee while nursing DD2
(yes, it was awkward and a squish, but this only lasted maybe a week
before she felt secure enough to move to a position on the floor of our
nursing chair).

2) Instead of having grandparents take DD1 off my hands, I handed over
the baby to them. They were thrilled to have the baby all to themselves
for an hour, while I got to take DD1 out for special one-on-one mommy
time.

3) Recruit everyone's help to clear all the housekeeping tasks off my
plate, so I could have more energy leftover to deal with both
children's needs at the same time.

I do agree they might consider hiring a sitter, but I'd have the sitter
either help out with all the housekeeping, or take the baby off mom's
hands, instead of taking the 19 month old away from mommy. If he's
whining, he's feeling needy. Better to address that need with lots of
reassurance and cuddles.

jen

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article . com>,
shinypenny > wrote:
>
>I do agree they might consider hiring a sitter, but I'd have the sitter
>either help out with all the housekeeping, or take the baby off mom's
>hands, instead of taking the 19 month old away from mommy. If he's
>whining, he's feeling needy. Better to address that need with lots of
>reassurance and cuddles.
>

This does make a lot of sense, but I think if they find a
more-part-time daycare option, that having somewhere special that he
gets to go because he is the big boy, and making other toddler friends
there, might work well and give mom the break that she seems to need
from him.

--Robyn

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article om>,
> wrote:

>I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
>2 months old and the other is 19 months. I work and my wife stays at
>home. Lately my older son has been whinning and crying. He does this
>with her, but not as much with me. It's driving my wife nuts and now
>she wants to sent him to day care part time. She wants to enroll him
>in a pre school from 9am to 3pm, 5 days a week.

I see from a later post that you are looking at that schedule because
that is what your preferred Montessouri program recommends. That seems
like a lot (of time and money) for a child who has a "stay at home"
parent.

Honestly, I do think it would be good for your child and for your wife,
given the current situation, for you child to spend some time in a good
daycare/preschool program, but I would be inclined to try to compromise
on a program that doesn't insist on a full-time schedule. Did you have
a "second choice" that was more flexible about the hours? I think a very
nice compromise might be to get your older child into a part-time program
and also hire a mother's helper to look after the baby a few hours a week
so mom can spend some one-on-one time with the older child, if she agrees
that that is something that she would like.

A daycare program doesn't have to be overtly "educational" for a toddler
to learn a lot from it. Just being exposed to a different caregiver,
other children, and different toys and activities is a great learning
experience for a young child. As others have suggested, I'd recommend
trying something for a few months, and then re-assessing later.

Also, if your wife does have post-partum depression, it is not going
to go away by itself, even if you put your child in daycare and do all
the chores, etc. Make sure you look into it.

For what it's worth, my three boys each had a different childcare
situation at 19 months. My first was in daycare 3 mornings a week
while I went to school and my DH worked full-time. My second was in
daycare full-time while we both worked full-time. My third was cared
for exclusively by my DH and myself while we both worked flexible
part-time sechedules. All three thrived. There is no one "right" way
of doing things. Each arrangement has its benefits and drawbacks.

Good luck finding what works best for you and your family, and remember
that the solutions will not be set in stone, and will likely change as
your family changes and grows.

--Robyn

[Penny Gaines]

Tomwaters wrote:

> Penny Gaines wrote:
>
>> I think the real problem is that you have two babies (no matter how
> big
>> he seems compared to the 2mo, the 19mo is still a baby), and almost
>> everyone would find it hard to cope. You are probably both stressed
> out,
>> and it is possible your wife has postnatal depression as well.
>
> That's probably true.

Firstly, in your posts, you do sound like you think your wife is a lovely
woman: it didn't come out in your original one :-).

>> He's just found that life no longer revolves aroud him, and he's
> probably
>> having a hard time adjusting. Possibly when he is with you, you are
> not
>> also in sole charge of the baby, but when he is with your wife, she
> is
>> trying to look after another child too. That is, the reason you
> aren't
>> getting the tantrums is because he isn't jealous that the baby is
> stealing
>> his time with you.
>
> The strange thing is that with me that really doesn't happen. I often
> look after both of them alone and even when both of them want to be
> fed at the same time, or the older one wants my attention, I can
> usually
> redirect him and stop his whining until I am finish with the new born
> and can pay some attention to the 19 month old.

I'll just re-iterate what other people have said: the primary care-giver
always gets the worst behaviour. In addition, you mentioned in another
post that the children at daycare are all well behaved: that again is
probably because the children are not with mummy, and if you saw them
at home you'd probably wonder what happened.

[snip]
> We'll I'm not oppose to daycare if we are in agreement as to why we are
> sending him there. If it becomes so overwhelming for her, then we
> really
> have no choice, and daycare would be the next best option. I just
> don't want to send him there if the reason is because she thinks it
> would
> be good for him to learn and be with other kids, and by not doing so we
> would put him at a disadvantage in his later years. I think at 19
> months
> the main reason for daycare is to care for the child, not to stimulate
> and teach him. If you look at their daytime schedule, the interaction
> or play time is usually for half and hour in the morning and half and
> hour during the afternoon. And the teaching time is usually for
> an hour to hour and a half in the morning. All the other times are for
> diaper changes, lunch preparation, lunch time, pre nap, and 2 1/2 hour
> of naptime.

OK, it looks like the day care your wife likes wants the children
full-time, rather then your wife wanting to send them to a daycare
full-time. It also sounds like you are not too keen on the Montessori
style of this daycare: it is probably worth noting that the Montessori
philosophy regards play as being "children's work", so maybe it is
the terminology putting you off.

I think part of the problem is that you and your wife are not in agreement
about what you want to achieve by sending him to daycare. It might be -
like other people have suggested - that your wife is uncomfortable
saying "I need a break". OTOH, I do think that toddlers of the age
your older child do need interaction with other children, and they do
get bored, so it also possible that your wife's comments about the boy
needing daycare for stimulation should be taken at face value. Or maybe
it is a bit of both: but I don't know your wife, so I can't be too
quick to presume.

If I was advising your wife, I would suggest finding some friends with
*older* children, to get together for coffee. A 4yo will be entertaining
for a 19mo (and a baby), and going to see some one else would give her
a break. But obviously I can't organise someone else's social life.
My suggestions for finding people like this - and they don't need to
become good friends - would be perhaps neighbours or through a church.

>> One option she could consider is perhaps getting a mother's help for
> a
>> few hours a day. That way, the mother's help could take the older
> child out
>> so he isn't bored and give your wife the time she wants with the
> baby.
>
> Do you have any suggestions about how to go about getting a mother's
> helper?
> Do we just put an ad or is there a place that would have pre screened
> candidates?

You could put an ad out, or try a nanny agency. Another possibility
would be teenagers, maybe a neighbour's daughter.

>> It's possible that your wife is feeling guilty that the baby isn't
> getting
>> the same attention that she gave the older one, and the only way she
> can see
>> to do this is to send the older one someone else.
>>
>
> No, I don't think so. She really plays with the babies alot. She's
> always
> reading to them, playing the toys with them, posing them for pictures,
> taking them outside , doing singing and dancing, etc.
> She probably pays them too much attention. Her problem only recently
> started
> because the whining and crying has got to such a point that he's
> totally
> frustrated and can't take it anymore (in my opinion).

Like I said in a seperate post, this might be that he is heading for
the terrible twos. The way to deal with terrible twos is to be consistant
and firm, but when you are sleep deprived it is not easy to do that.

[snip]
> Yes, I think thats the consensus from most of the replys. I don't mean
> to
> appear that I'm doing alot more and she's doing alot less. In fact,
> before she started insisting on daycare, she was doing most of the
> work.
> Only recently have I begun taking care of both of them when I get off
> work. This way at least she'll have some free time and either go out
> of the house to the gym or shopping or whatever, or get some sleep or
> just relax.
>
> I'm looking for sound advice and an objective third point of view so
> I can assess and make a judgement as to whether to give in and send
> our son to daycare, or hold firm and only send him only if necessary.

I think you are getting about a fourth, fifth and sixth opinion here!

Have you considered printing all the replies you get, and showing them to
your wife?

I mean I think your wife is probably correct in that the 19mo needs more
stimulation then he will get at home with just Mummy and the baby. The
question is which of the options available where you are is the best way
of him getting stimulation.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[shinypenny]

Robyn Kozierok wrote:
> In article . com>,
> shinypenny > wrote:
> >
> >I do agree they might consider hiring a sitter, but I'd have the
sitter
> >either help out with all the housekeeping, or take the baby off
mom's
> >hands, instead of taking the 19 month old away from mommy. If he's
> >whining, he's feeling needy. Better to address that need with lots
of
> >reassurance and cuddles.
> >
>
> This does make a lot of sense, but I think if they find a
> more-part-time daycare option, that having somewhere special that he
> gets to go because he is the big boy, and making other toddler
friends
> there, might work well and give mom the break that she seems to need
> from him.

I think that works wonderfully with a 3 or 4 year old. A 19 month old?
No, different story entirely. JMHO.

It *can* work, however, if you think about all this in advance, and
enroll the older child in daycare *before* baby sibling comes along.
But now? No, I'd be concerned that big brother is going to see this for
what it is - and attempt to get him out of the house so mom and baby
can have it all to themselves. And who is he going to blame for that?
Baby! I'd personally hate to set up their budding sibling relationship
on that particular note!

There are good reasons why the human body really wasn't designed to
have babies spaced closer than 4 years apart. Back-to-back pregnancies
take a serious toll on the body, deplete vitamins, deplete sleep, etc,
and make it a real challenge to serve both children's needs at the same
time. It's not just emotional needs that are demanding in the under 2
crowd - there's the whole physical aspect. My DD1, at age 19 months
when her sister was born, was still in diapers, barely speaking (her
first sentence, in fact, was "Tummy - all gone!"), and also still
wanting to be carried everywhere by mom. I threw my back out within a
couple of days of bringing sister home, attempting to carry both of
them down the stairs at once. A 19 month old still requires a lot of
physical touch, too.

Nope, I barely remember DD2's first 6 months. It is all like a walking
dream. And she was an *easy* child who slept through the night and took
ample naps!!! DD1 was much more demanding at that time. To give you an
idea how out of it I was, around age 3 months, I took both kids out to
go grocery shopping - it was snowing out - get to the store parking
lot, go to lift out the baby, she's sopping wet. Feel inside her onesie
and realize, "Oh my. I dressed her in a onesie, bundled her up in a
snow suit, and duh,,,,, I forgot to put on a diaper first!!" I just
completely spaced on that one! :-)

I'm not sure I'd do it all over again this way. There are, however, big
pluses as the children transition out of diapers and become more
social. I enrolled my kids in preschool by age 4. Until that age,
neither one of them were all that ready for it, IMO (YMMV and all
that). They did have tons of playdates, but were still primarily
playing side-to-side until around 3-1/2 or 4.

Oh - actually, I did, however, put both of them into a one-hour
babysitting service a few days a week so I could work out and get a hot
shower. But I don't know how much that really counts: the sitting
service was in a room with a glass wall overlooking the health club
track, so the kids could see me zip by on my laps.

Today, my kids are very close friends and have a good relationship with
minimal rivalry. It is a lot of fun having the two so close in age -
NOW - but I am dreading having all that college tuition hitting at
once. :-(

jen

[Sue]

"Robyn Kozierok" > wrote in message
> This does make a lot of sense, but I think if they find a
> more-part-time daycare option, that having somewhere special that he
> gets to go because he is the big boy, and making other toddler friends
> there, might work well and give mom the break that she seems to need
> from him.

This could backfire and the child may feel like he is being gotten rid of
and become more clingy.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"shinypenny" > wrote in message
>Nope, I barely remember DD2's first 6 months. It is all like a walking
> dream. And she was an *easy* child who slept through the night and took
> ample naps!!! DD1 was much more demanding at that time. To give you an
> idea how out of it I was, around age 3 months, I took both kids out to
> go grocery shopping - it was snowing out - get to the store parking
> lot, go to lift out the baby, she's sopping wet. Feel inside her onesie
> and realize, "Oh my. I dressed her in a onesie, bundled her up in a
> snow suit, and duh,,,,, I forgot to put on a diaper first!!" I just
> completely spaced on that one! :-)
>
> I'm not sure I'd do it all over again this way. There are, however, big
> pluses as the children transition out of diapers and become more
> social. I enrolled my kids in preschool by age 4. Until that age,
> neither one of them were all that ready for it, IMO (YMMV and all
> that). They did have tons of playdates, but were still primarily
> playing side-to-side until around 3-1/2 or 4.
>
> Oh - actually, I did, however, put both of them into a one-hour
> babysitting service a few days a week so I could work out and get a hot
> shower. But I don't know how much that really counts: the sitting
> service was in a room with a glass wall overlooking the health club
> track, so the kids could see me zip by on my laps.
>
> Today, my kids are very close friends and have a good relationship with
> minimal rivalry. It is a lot of fun having the two so close in age -
> NOW - but I am dreading having all that college tuition hitting at
> once. :-(
>
> jen

I have two girls that are 19 months apart. They are the last two of my
three. My experience mimics yours, except the last two girls do not get
along at all. When DD3 was born, I had DD2 who was 19 months old and then an
older daughter, who was three years older. It was horrible for a while. I
remember being a walking zombie for quite a long time.

And there were times when I regretted having them and said the same thing as
the OP's wife did. I wasn't depressed though, just extremely overwhelmed and
tired. It got better, but DD3 still remains high needs and hard to get along
with. So, while depression may be behind the OP's behavior, I suspect it
might just be due to being tired and overwhelmed.

I don't think sending the child away right now would be a good thing, but
the OP's wife does need to have some time with the older child and perhaps
have some time to herself. I understand the husband is helping out, but
maybe what the mom needs is
1-2 hours to herself every evening to do what she wants or maybe spend that
some time with her older son.
--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[Sue]

"Tomwaters" > wrote in message
> When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants me
> to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the
> difference is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy can't play
with
> you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look
> at some books or toys, he usually stops.

Never blame the baby as to why you cannot play or do something with the
older child. Come up with something else or say that you can play when you
are done with xyz and involve the older child if you can. Also, both of you
read Siblings Without Rivarly and How To Talk So Kids Will Listen & Listen
So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish. You can also talk to your
son about when he was a baby and all of the care he needed at this age. Even
get some pictures out and give him a photo album of his own to look at while
you or your wife is busy with the baby. Get him some toys to occupy himself
or read a book while the baby is feeding. Perhaps you could spend some one
on one time with your older son when you get home. When our second was born,
DH took DD1 out to the park or for a walk while I cared for the baby. Hang
in there, it's rough, but it does get better.

--
Sue (mom to three girls)

[toto]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 16:37:18 EDT, wrote:

>If the OP's wife could pump some and hire a sitter to
>watch the baby for an hour or two occasionally, she could
>focus energy on the older one. This will feel like a break to
>her, and would help the older one a lot.

It seems like she feels she is not coping well with the toddler
though. I agree that probably he needs some one on one time
with her. Perhaps this can happen if dad takes the baby when
he comes home and she does the toddlers bath and bedtime
routine too.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:10:02 EDT, "Tomwaters" >
wrote:

>Wife might have some depression since she sometimes
>would say "I wished we never had any kids and her life is
>now miserable".

Take this seriously. She needs to talk to her doctor about
depression and get some real help for it.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[toto]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:10:02 EDT, "Tomwaters" >
wrote:

>We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
>provider and the director at that school recommends all five days.
>They really stress the learning value over child care. I just think
>19 months is a little too early to be so concerned about learning.

While the fact is that children of this age are always learning, I
don't think that a five day a week daycare is necessary for this
at this age. The primary needs of children at this age are to
explore the world and they can do this quite well at home or
on the playground. Even going out to the grocery store is a
learning experience for them.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Tai]

Tomwaters wrote:
> Tai wrote:
>> With the proviso that the daycare is good quality and your son
>> settles in well, etc. I probably wouldn't go for 5 days, though,
>> unless your wife is at risk for post-natal depression.
>
> We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
> provider
> and the director at that school recommends all five days. They really
> stress the learning value over child care.

That might be a misunderstanding over terminology, as I understand it
montessori education is very child-led and at that age what the child would
be doing is playing - just in an environment with lots of different
opportunities to learn by osmosis, almost!

I just think 19 months is
> a little too early to be so concerned about learning. Wife might have
> some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
> any
> kids and her life is now miserable".

Oh boy, that's a cry for help. Take her to a doctor, fast.

The other posters have given lots of good advice about different options
that might help but the first thing is to get your wife feeling rested, in
control and coping. Your older son will be happier (and easier for his
mother to manage) once that happens but you need to start at the cause of
the problem rather than trying to work from the outside in.

Tai

[Tai]

shinypenny wrote:
> Tai wrote:
>> What about the cost of hiring a regular babysitter to come in and
>> take your oldest boy out for a couple of hours?
>
> Hmm, I dunno, Tai. When DD2 was born, the grandparents were all very
> well-intentioned, attempting to take DD1 off my hands so I could
> concentrate on the baby. All it did was make DD1 (then also only 19
> months old) very, very anxious and needy for her mother!
>
> I found this rivarly/needy stage went very quickly once I adopted a
> few practices:
>
> 1) I always made room for DD1 to sit on my other knee while nursing
> DD2 (yes, it was awkward and a squish, but this only lasted maybe a
> week before she felt secure enough to move to a position on the floor
> of our nursing chair).
>
> 2) Instead of having grandparents take DD1 off my hands, I handed over
> the baby to them. They were thrilled to have the baby all to
> themselves for an hour, while I got to take DD1 out for special
> one-on-one mommy time.
>
> 3) Recruit everyone's help to clear all the housekeeping tasks off my
> plate, so I could have more energy leftover to deal with both
> children's needs at the same time.
>
> I do agree they might consider hiring a sitter, but I'd have the
> sitter either help out with all the housekeeping, or take the baby
> off mom's hands, instead of taking the 19 month old away from mommy.
> If he's whining, he's feeling needy. Better to address that need with
> lots of reassurance and cuddles.

Jen, I don't disagree with any of that and I regret that I gave the
impression that I thought it would be a good thing for mum and toddler to be
separated for long periods. My feeling is that one or two 6 hour sesssions a
week might be good for the boy and allow the mother the opportunity to miss
her toddler while spending one-on-one time with her baby and getting to take
a nap during the day while her nights are broken. I was imagining the child
and his mother coming back to each other refreshed and stimulated but only
if the little lad was happy at at his "big-boy" activity.

I also think it would be good for her to have one-on-one time with her
oldest child while the baby is looked after by someone else but at the
moment I think she's desperate for some alone time - first to sleep, and
then to have some life apart from motherhood. That's hard to imagine when
you're immersed in the 24/7 care of a newborn but not so difficult to
imagine with an older baby such as her toddler.

As their baby is only two months old their lives probably haven't quite
settled into a routine yet and I think that having some scheduled times that
she can count on each week without having to use extra energy in trying to
organise it afresh each time would be especially useful just now. If it
isn't daycare (and I don't think full time would be desirable in their
situation) then it still needs to be constant and reliable.

I just think that with a bit of imagination and perhaps some medical
assistance this need not be more than a short and adjustment period but it
won't be if the woman doesn't get a chance to get back her joy in her life
and family.

Tai

[toto]

On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 21:28:54 EDT, "Tai" > wrote:

>> We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
>> provider
>> and the director at that school recommends all five days. They really
>> stress the learning value over child care.
>
>That might be a misunderstanding over terminology, as I understand it
>montessori education is very child-led and at that age what the child would
>be doing is playing - just in an environment with lots of different
>opportunities to learn by osmosis, almost!

This is generally true, but imo, a 5 day a week all day program is
simply too long to be in a group setting at 19 months unless the
child has to be there because of work situations. Kids can adjust
to it, but it's not the best scenario by any means.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

[Catherine Woodgold]

Banty ) writes:
> And she may need to see it that way - if you're insisting that it's only
> necessary if it's for her sake, you may be putting her into a spot where she
> either is 'selfish', or doesn't get her needs fulfilled.

Yes, that may be it. Imagine when the kid is 8 years old
and she's telling the kid, "Oh, yes, when you were
19 months old I sent you to daycare
because I needed a break from you." Wouldn't the kid
feel so much better if she said instead, "I sent you to
daycare because you needed to run around a lot, not stay
home with a boring mother and baby who were taking naps
all day." At 19 months, probably the kid already understands
a lot of speech even if he doesn't talk yet. If you're
talking about daycare where he can hear, it may be much
better to put it in more diplomatic or positive terms.
But even when talking privately, maybe your wife doesn't
want to feel that she's being selfish, or doesn't want
to admit to something that she might later feel she has
to tell the kids to be completely open with them.

I imagine it's like this: For her own sake and the
baby's, she needs to be doing quiet things all day:
nursing the baby, rocking the baby to sleep, and
lying down to rest and take naps herself to make up
for interrupted sleep at night. But for the sake of
the toddler, she needs to be doing active things
almost all day: running around, waving toys in
the air, going outside, going to playgrounds and
playgroups, talking, picking up the toddler and
tossing him in the air, etc. That's a conflict,
almost constantly all day.

Since her need for sleep and the baby's needs are
more basic, pressing physical needs, she has to give priority
to those needs, but the toddler's need for stimulation,
excitement and learning is almost as pressing and
is constantly expressed in whining all day.

Every family is unique. I think just about any mother
who is looking after 2 kids that young while
her husband works, without the help of relatives etc.,
is doing something difficult and challenging.
But it varies from one family to another.
Some families may have a mother who happens to only
need 6 hours of sleep a night; or babies who
sleep through the night almost every night; or
two babies with similar temperaments (both need
lots of quiet time, or both enjoy lots of stimulation);
or two babies who take naps at the same time.
These families may do OK and then other people
think "if they can handle it, I ought to be able to."
But other families have things more difficult:
babies who wake every 2 hours at night for years after
birth (not just weeks or months); mothers who need
a little more sleep than the average person; babies
who need to be walked for hours in the middle of the
night; babies with stomach pains who cry a lot, etc.

So, some mothers can look after 2 babies while their
husband works and feel OK and maybe even get other
stuff done too, but for other mothers it may be
torture. I imagine your wife lying down with the
baby and desperately trying to get a few minutes
rest while the toddler is pulling on her arm, whining
and trying to get her to get up and play. Over and
over again all day long. It could be rather horrible.

Maybe your wife knows perfectly well how to teach
a toddler not to whine, but she sees that she just
can't do it while also looking after a baby and
trying to catch up on her sleep. The way to teach
the toddler not to whine is: give him lots of
attention, including at times when he enjoys it
but didn't ask for it, and at times when he asked
for it subtly, quietly or politely; when you say no
or ask for him to wait, be ready to stick to it
and not change your mind in response to whining;
and above all, don't keep on saying no for a period
of time while he whines and then change your mind
and give in when he whines more loudly.

I think that may be the only way to teach a toddler
not to whine, and I think it is simply impossible
for your wife to do that if she's spending all day
trying to get the baby to sleep and take a nap or
at least rest herself, and she constantly has to
struggle with the balance of whether the toddler's
need to play is strong enough that she just has
to get up and play for a while. It's almost
inevitable that she'll have to refuse to play a
lot and give in and play when the toddler whines
more loudly (or starts pulling all the books
off the shelves or other misbehaviour which he'll
learn is a way to get her attention).

She may be right in a sense that it's in the toddler's
best interest to go to daycare. She can see that
he wants stimulation and excitement (which she is unable to
give him). Being separated from the parents
can be an emotional trauma for a little child, but
the fun of having a chance to play with interesting toys and
other children for hours can be (for many children)
a bigger plus than the negative of separating from
the parents. Little kids often cry for a few minutes
when their parents leave but then look happy playing
for hours. It's hard to judge how much they miss
their parents.

Here's an idea: you and your wife need to make
a big decision. Before making a big decision, you can
arrange to have both of you get as good a sleep
as possible for 2 days and then discuss it. You
can't discuss effectively when sleep-deprived.
Since looking after the baby in the middle of th
night is inevitable, as good a sleep as possible
may mean: a 12-hour sleep at night with interruptions,
but including a 3-hour uninterrupted part during
the first half of the night, plus a 3-hour nap
in the early afternoon and two other 2-hour naps
during the day. In order to arrange for this for
your wife (and maybe for yourself too if you need
it), you may need to take a few days off work, or
use a weekend, and/or hire someone to do the chores
for a few days, and/or hire somone to take the
toddler out to a playground for a few hours, or
perhaps to take both kids out. So that's a suggestion:
make arrangements to make a good sleep possible for
2 days before discussing a major decision.

I think any arrangement you come to to cover the
next few months should include letting your wife
get enough sleep. She's miserable. Maybe if she
gets enough sleep she'll enjoy being a mother.
Whether it's daycare, or hiring someone to do
the chores, or playgroups, or whatever.

Maybe the baby is teething or something. Maybe
it's a relatively short-term crisis.

--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

dragonlady ) writes:
> Since at this point you and your wife disagree about day care, it just
> makes sense to me to drop THAT discussion, and try to have a discussion
> about what needs of your son's (and your wife's, if she's willing to
> include that) are not currently being met, and try to research and
> discuss other ways to meet those needs. You may end up agreeing that
> day care is the best option -- or you may not. But I think framing it
> as a discussion about how to get needs met, rather than whether or not
> to send him to day care, is more likely to be a positive discussion.

Yes, I think this is a good idea.

I think the toddler definitely has a need for
stimulation (and he knows it -- constantly asking
Mummy or Daddy to play with him.) This is a real,
important need. Daycare is one of a number of
possible ways of meeting that need.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

dragonlady ) writes:
> In article . com>,
> "Tomwaters" > wrote:
>
>> Wife might have
>> some depression since she sometimes would say "I wished we never had
>> any
>> kids and her life is now miserable".
>
> *Might* have some depression?
>
> I'd say she definately does.

I agree: she definitely has some depression.
Note: lack of sleep causes depression. I would
suggest: immediately take steps to make sure she
gets enough sleep. (But if she is breastfeeding,
I would suggest not interfering with breastfeeding,
not feeding the baby other ways, but finding other
ways to get her enough sleep, like having someone
else look after the kids while the chores are
being done, etc.) After she has had enough sleep for a
few days, plus a half-hour walk in sunshine or
at least daylight every day, if she's still
depressed then other options like seeing a therapist
may be a good idea. I don't see the point of
further cutting into her sleeping time by
having her go out of the house to visit a therapist
if she's already not getting enough sleep.
Taking that time to have a nap may do her
more good.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> If the OP's wife could pump
> some and hire a sitter to watch the baby for an hour or two
> occasionally, she could focus energy on the older one. This will feel
> like a break to her, and would help the older one a lot.

It might not feel like a break. If you are short of
sleep, playing with a toddler for an hour might not
feel like a break even if you don't have to look after
the baby at the same time; and the effort of pumping
milk, answering the doorbell when the sitter arrives,
suffering some separation anxiety or guilt,
etc. may be more effort than looking after a little
baby for another hour or two. It might or might
not feel like a break for the mother. It would
probably feel great for the toddler and help the
toddler to be (just a little) less whiny the rest of the day.

If it's just for an hour or two, it might not
be necessary to pump milk.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

"shinypenny" ) writes:
> Hmm, I dunno, Tai. When DD2 was born, the grandparents were all very
> well-intentioned, attempting to take DD1 off my hands so I could
> concentrate on the baby. All it did was make DD1 (then also only 19
> months old) very, very anxious and needy for her mother!

That's a point! Sending the toddler to daycare could
result in the toddler being even whinier around the
mother: first, the baby comes along and takes up
most of mother's attention, and then being sent away
for hours! It depends on how the toddler feels about
daycare. Maybe it's seen more as a fun time, or maybe
it's seen more as a time of separation from the mother.

How about starting by hiring someone to do the
chores, so the mother doesn't have to look after
the children while father does the chores.
That would make things easier with less
separation anxiety.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[shinypenny]

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> I agree: she definitely has some depression.
> Note: lack of sleep causes depression. I would
> suggest: immediately take steps to make sure she
> gets enough sleep. (But if she is breastfeeding,
> I would suggest not interfering with breastfeeding,
> not feeding the baby other ways, but finding other
> ways to get her enough sleep, like having someone
> else look after the kids while the chores are
> being done, etc.) After she has had enough sleep for a
> few days, plus a half-hour walk in sunshine or
> at least daylight every day, if she's still
> depressed then other options like seeing a therapist
> may be a good idea. I don't see the point of
> further cutting into her sleeping time by
> having her go out of the house to visit a therapist
> if she's already not getting enough sleep.
> Taking that time to have a nap may do her
> more good.

Add "eating well" into that. Assuming she nursed her first child too,
then her body has been pregnant and/or nursing continuously for the
last couple of years. Lack of sleep aside, that takes quite a
nutritional toll on a woman. I'd recommend having the OB/GYN do a blood
test to see how her iron levels are fairing. Multivitamin is a good
idea, but cannot replace a healthy diet. Even if she is taking a
vitamin and eating well, it may take her body awhile to build back the
nutrient stores she's lost through successive pregnancies and nursing.

Having help to prepare nutritious meals for mom each day would go a
long way. I'm sure she's probably too busy, stressed, drained, and/or
tired to make much extra effort in the kitchen right now.

jen

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens when
> the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month. With
> just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it would
> be very tough financially.

I don't know whether it's in the best interests of the kid
or not. I tend to think it's usually best for a little
kid to be close to the parents all the time, but in this
case the mother is exhausted, she knows she can't satisfy
his need to play, and she believes he'll be better
off in daycare, so in this case maybe he would be -- I don't know.

You could send him to daycare
temporarily and only discuss the long-term situation when you and your
wife have had a good sleep (maybe in a few months).
I don't mean that it's necessarily safe to do
that; it's just one option.
Sending him even temporarily could result in
long-term emotional problems if he doesn't
take well to separation from his parents especially
so soon after the upheaval of a new baby arriving.
On the other hand, the mother herself may be
headed for long-term emotional problems if
something doesn't change.

If you do end up putting both kids in daycare from
9:00 to 3:00 later on, possibly your wife could then
work part-time to help cover the costs.

Is she breastfeeding? One or both kids?
Was the older one recently weaned?

What's her schedule like? How much does she
have to wake in the middle of the night, and
how much does she have to actually get out of
bed in the night? How much does she get to nap during the
day?

What does her schedule from 5:30 to 9:30 PM look
like? Does she get to take a long nap during
that time? How long? How much is she on-call during that
time to breastfeed, look after the kids while
you do the chores, or get woken by the whining
toddler or by hearing the baby's cries from
another room?

An idea: in addition to looking after both
kids from 5:30 to 9:30 PM, you could find another
family with kids and volunteer to look after
one of their kids too during that time, maybe one
or two evenings a week, and in return they
would look after your toddler sometimes while
you're at work. That would provide your
toddler with some stimulation as well as
giving your wife a bit of a break. You could
put up an ad to look for such a family, or
hang around in playgrounds in your neighbourhood
and get to know the parents there. For that
matter, if you just take both kids out to a
playground for an hour or so during the evening
that may help your wife get a break as well
as helping the toddler get stimulation.
You could make that a routine every evening.
And then possibly also find neighbours with
children to make play arrangements with.

I wouldn't expect a 19 month old to exactly
socialize much. At that age, watching older
children play is a big activity. I agree
with another poster's suggestion that having
a 4-year-old over to visit, for example,
could be beneficial.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

Since you're making a big decision, I suggest doing
some things to make sure you and your wife are
communicating clearly. Especially with the sleep
deprivation, it's easy to get into a situation where
years later you're saying "But I thought you said ..."
or "but I thought you meant ...".

Besides getting as good a sleep as possible for
the 1 or 2 nights before the discussion, here are
some ideas to facilitate clear communication:

-- write things down.
-- have a marriage counsellor facilitate the discussion.
-- have a friend, relative, religious leader or
other person come to your house to facilitate the
discussion. Someone you both agree on. Since
your wife is short of sleep, having someone come
to the house may be easier for her than having to
go out.
-- use the creative problem-solving format: identify
the needs; define the needs in abstract terms;
both people agree on what the problem is and what
the needs are; then brainstorm, list many possible
solutions without criticizing or evaluating them;
write down all the suggested solutions (including
silly ones and ones you don't like);
then evaluate the solutions -- perhaps
each person crossing off the ones they don't like,
or modifying them, or listing pros and cons etc.;
decide on a solution; then schedule a time to
re-assess and re-evaluate after trying out the
solution for a while. (However, she may not be able to
brainstorm effectively if sleep-deprived.)
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Nikki]

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> "shinypenny" ) writes:
>> Hmm, I dunno, Tai. When DD2 was born, the grandparents were all very
>> well-intentioned, attempting to take DD1 off my hands so I could
>> concentrate on the baby. All it did was make DD1 (then also only 19
>> months old) very, very anxious and needy for her mother!
>
> That's a point! Sending the toddler to daycare could
> result in the toddler being even whinier around the
> mother: first, the baby comes along and takes up
> most of mother's attention, and then being sent away
> for hours! It depends on how the toddler feels about
> daycare.

My son was 24mos when the baby was born. We actually did OK the first few
months but my dh didn't work very much then and he was used to going to
daycare and he really liked being at home even if it meant having a new baby
around ;-). I went back to work at 3mo when he was 27mos. His behavior
definitely went downhill for a bit when he started daycare again.
--
Nikki

[[email protected]]

Sue wrote:
> "Tomwaters" > wrote in message
> > When I'm taking care of both kids by myself and the older one wants
me
> > to play with him and I can't, he also starts to whine. But the
> > difference is when I raise the tone of my voice and say "Daddy
can't play
> with
> > you because daddy have to take care of Timmy" and I suggest he look
> > at some books or toys, he usually stops.
>
> Never blame the baby as to why you cannot play or do something with
the
> older child. Come up with something else or say that you can play
when you
> are done with xyz and involve the older child if you can. Also, both
of you
> read Siblings Without Rivarly and How To Talk So Kids Will Listen &
Listen
> So Kids Will Talk by Adele Faber & Elaine Mazlish. You can also talk
to your
> son about when he was a baby and all of the care he needed at this
age. Even
> get some pictures out and give him a photo album of his own to look
at while
> you or your wife is busy with the baby. Get him some toys to occupy
himself
> or read a book while the baby is feeding. Perhaps you could spend
some one
> on one time with your older son when you get home. When our second
was born,
> DH took DD1 out to the park or for a walk while I cared for the baby.
Hang
> in there, it's rough, but it does get better.
>
> --
> Sue (mom to three girls)


Thanks for the advice. I will keep this in mind in the future. Right
now our 19 month old is very sweet, so I don't think he feels neglected
when I say that. His behaviour thus far has not hinted that he's
jealous of the baby, in fact often times when the baby is crying he
will
come and get us and sometimes if he sees a pacifier he will try to
give it to him. He likes to play with the baby and kiss him. The only
thing we do is tell him to be gentle with the baby and so far he's very
good with the baby. I talk to him like he understands so when I
can't do something I always try to give him an explanation and it seems
to work. For example when he wants me to sing him a song and I do it
two or three times and he wants more, I will say "Daddy's losing his
voice and needs to rest". He seems to do better if I explain to him
rather than just ignore his request. But I think your right I should
not use the baby as an explantion because he might start to resent
him.

[[email protected]]

toto wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:10:02 EDT, "Tomwaters" >
> wrote:
>
> >We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
> >provider and the director at that school recommends all five days.
> >They really stress the learning value over child care. I just think

> >19 months is a little too early to be so concerned about learning.
>
> While the fact is that children of this age are always learning, I
> don't think that a five day a week daycare is necessary for this
> at this age. The primary needs of children at this age are to
> explore the world and they can do this quite well at home or
> on the playground. Even going out to the grocery store is a
> learning experience for them.
>
>
> --
> Dorothy
>
> There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> that can be heard unless someone listens ..
>
> The Outer Limits


The montessori school does have several options and are quite
flexible. They have part time day which is just the morning
session and they have 2 day (tue, thurs), 3 days (mon,wed,fri)
as well as 5 days. We went looking for perhaps 2 or 3 days,
but the school directory recommends five days.

I do agree with Dorothy that at his age, 5 day a week daycare
is not necessary if the main purpose is child stimulation and
development.

[Circe]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Right
> now our 19 month old is very sweet, so I don't think he feels neglected
> when I say that. His behaviour thus far has not hinted that he's
> jealous of the baby, in fact often times when the baby is crying he
> will come and get us and sometimes if he sees a pacifier he will try to
> give it to him. He likes to play with the baby and kiss him. The only
> thing we do is tell him to be gentle with the baby and so far he's very
> good with the baby. <snip> But I think your right I should
> not use the baby as an explantion because he might start to resent
> him.

FWIW, none of my kids ever showed any signs of being jealous OF THE BABY.
They were never mad at the BABY; they were mad at ME for not being able to
do things for me that I was able to do before the new baby came along.

Another thing I feel I must point out is that I have rarely seen a
toddler/preschooler who was aggressive towards a newborn. The
aggression/jealousy, IME, usually doesn't start until the baby is able to
sit up/crawl/get around. At that point, the baby becomes a more "real" being
to the older child. Also, at around that time (6 months or so), the older
child has probably realized that the new child is really here to stay. I
think in the early going, many older siblings think that the new baby is
just visiting and things will eventually go back to the way they were. By
the time the baby really starts to become a "person", it's also apparent
that the baby isn't ever going to leave. It's pretty common for the older
child to begin to show signs of jealousy and aggression at this time, even
if you've not seen it up to that point.
--
Be well, Barbara
Mom to Mr. Congeniality (7), the Diva (5) and the Race Car Fanatic (3)

I have PMS and ESP...I'm the bitch who knows everything! (T-shirt slogan)

[Ericka Kammerer]

wrote:

> The montessori school does have several options and are quite
> flexible. They have part time day which is just the morning
> session and they have 2 day (tue, thurs), 3 days (mon,wed,fri)
> as well as 5 days. We went looking for perhaps 2 or 3 days,
> but the school directory recommends five days.

Color me cynical, but they do have several motives
beyond "what's best for the child" to recommend five day
programs ;-) I know part of it is their curriculum, which
does go for an immersion sort of thing that is probably more
effective with more time in some ways, but 19 months is just
waaaaay too early to worry about how effective the
curriculum is. Even your wife admits this is about
socialization and not academics, so a part day, part
time program would be much more suitable. My 21 month
old is *very* social and eager to go hang out with other
kids, and she'll start at two half-days per week next
year (when she's about 26 months old). I'd rather she
do three half days per week, because two days is a very
rough adjustment because there's such a long gap between
school days, but I don't have any urge to put her in five
half days a week, much less five full days a week, for
her benefit (though there are days when it looks good
from a personal mental health standpoint ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

[[email protected]]

Thank you to everyone who participated in this
discussion. It has helped me to see what's
going on. I initially was looking at this
as wife wants daycare for child development, and
I don't because I think its too early. Now
I now the real issue is wife needs help taking
care of two kids.

I suggest she talk with her ob about the post
partum depression. She says she will and that
the depression is not that bad, only comes
at times when she's completely overwhelmed, ie
both babies crying non stop and both wanting
her attention.

We decide to take small steps and to evaluate how
things are going before taking more steps.
For now we have placed an ad in the local university
employment help for part time mother's helper(s), 20
hours a week with the schedule to be determine by
the wife. We have also signed up for a 9 week
gymboree class so 19 month old can play and so wife
can meet other moms with similar age kids.
If things don't work out we will try daycare for him,
twice a week and go on from there.

P.S. In my posts I hardly mention the 2 month old
and that's not because we are not paying him enough
attention...we try to give them both them equal
treatment. The 2 month old so far is very easy,
just takes the bottle and sleeps most of the time.
The 19 month old acting up with wife is the main
cause of my wife's feeling frustrated on overwhelmed.

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article . com>,
> wrote:
>For now we have placed an ad in the local university
>employment help for part time mother's helper(s), 20
>hours a week with the schedule to be determine by
>the wife. We have also signed up for a 9 week
>gymboree class so 19 month old can play and so wife
>can meet other moms with similar age kids.
>If things don't work out we will try daycare for him,
>twice a week and go on from there.

It sounds like you have come up with several good plans. Please
consider updating us when you see how things are working for you.

>P.S. In my posts I hardly mention the 2 month old
>and that's not because we are not paying him enough
>attention...we try to give them both them equal
>treatment. The 2 month old so far is very easy,
>just takes the bottle and sleeps most of the time.

Don't worry, I don't think anyone thinks you are ignoring the baby!
It's only with your second child that you realize just how easy a
two-month-old is. ;-) Didn't it seem much harder the first time
around? My second child was by far my most difficult infant (he had
food allergies that presented as colic and GE reflux), but I'll be the
first to say that my firstborn got way more "attention" when his
brother was a baby. And he was almost 3yo! Before the baby is
mobile, he needs to be held, fed, talked to, rocked, etc. but that is
nothing compared to making sure the older child doesn't kill himself,
which at that age seems to be a constant goal ;-)

Enjoy your boys,
Robyn (mom to 3 boys, ages 4, 8, 11)

[Mike Isaacs]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2005 22:48:06 EDT, wrote:

>I am having some trouble with my wife. We have two boys, one is
>2 months old and the other is 19 months.

<snip>

You aren't the one with the problem, guy. You aren't the one home all day
long with a near-terrible-two and a two-month old kid. Your wife needs a
break. This isn't about your son -- it's about her.

[[email protected]]

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> Banty ) writes:
> > And she may need to see it that way - if you're insisting that it's
only
> > necessary if it's for her sake, you may be putting her into a spot
where she
> > either is 'selfish', or doesn't get her needs fulfilled.
>
> Yes, that may be it. Imagine when the kid is 8 years old
> and she's telling the kid, "Oh, yes, when you were
> 19 months old I sent you to daycare
> because I needed a break from you." Wouldn't the kid
> feel so much better if she said instead, "I sent you to
> daycare because you needed to run around a lot, not stay
> home with a boring mother and baby who were taking naps
> all day." At 19 months, probably the kid already understands
> a lot of speech even if he doesn't talk yet. If you're
> talking about daycare where he can hear, it may be much
> better to put it in more diplomatic or positive terms.


Also, I wouldn't discount the idea that the kid *is* ready for a
preschool. One of mine was, for sure, at that age. It wasn't a
childcare issue. I was living in another country, and we had a ratio of
something like 5 adults to one child. Everyone was tripping over their
toes to get the kids things...

....but that didn't make up for being in a child-centered environment
with other kids. They don't play with each other at that age, but they
(some of them, anyway), love to play around each other. This kid was
very aware of other children from around 10-12 months old, and it was
clear that preschool was a huge hit. I am *so* glad we did it.

I think the Gymboree is a great idea.

Rupa

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> toto wrote:
> > On Fri, 8 Apr 2005 12:10:02 EDT, "Tomwaters" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >We went to several day care provides. The wife likes a montessori
> > >provider and the director at that school recommends all five days.
> > >They really stress the learning value over child care. I just
think
>
> > >19 months is a little too early to be so concerned about learning.
> >

One of my kids was in Montessori pretty much through pre-school, and
I'm a great fan. (For the right kind of kid -- there are some for whom
it's not so good.) I think Montessori is excellent. If I had to do
anything over, it would be to look harder for a Montessori for the
other kid -- who did much less time in Montessori because of logistical
issues.

They learn a lot, they become self-confident and independent, and mine
at least couldn't wait to go to school. We started with 2 days, went to
3 days, went to 5 half-days, then gave in and went to five full days.

I think all 5 days is better, myself; little kids don't have a sense of
time so much as a sense of routine, and it's easier on them if
something happens every day (a predictable interval) than at vague
unpredictable intervals like 2 or 3 times a week. (However, I found
that out only when my kids taught it to me. It didn't occur to me
before. I didn't know any little kids before mine.)

We did do the "It's Tuesday! You get to go to school today!" bit. But
at 19 months or 36 months or 48 months, 7 day cycles are just plain
hard to understand.

Rupa

[Robyn Kozierok]

In article om>,
> wrote:
>
>I think all 5 days is better, myself; little kids don't have a sense of
>time so much as a sense of routine, and it's easier on them if
>something happens every day (a predictable interval) than at vague
>unpredictable intervals like 2 or 3 times a week. (However, I found
>that out only when my kids taught it to me. It didn't occur to me
>before. I didn't know any little kids before mine.)
>
>We did do the "It's Tuesday! You get to go to school today!" bit. But
>at 19 months or 36 months or 48 months, 7 day cycles are just plain
>hard to understand.

But you still have a 7-day cycle because the weekend days are different.
I don't see an inherent difficulty with learning that Saturday and Sunday
and Tuesday and Thursday, for example, are days that they don't go to
school.

On the other hand, in the preschool we have used, the kids who went all
week were in the same classes as the kids who went part-time, and that
made my middle son feel that he was missing out on things (even though
activities were always planned in such a way that every child got to do
them). So, for that child, we went up to 5 days even though we didn't
need it for childcare reasons.

My youngest, on the other hand, knows that some of the other kids are
there when he is not, but doesn't mind staying home on the days when
his school is "closed" for him.

Certain schedules do work better for different children. For example,
some children my do better with alternate days on and off, while mine
always seemed to prefer a block of days on, and then a block of days
off including the weekend, although this did make going back at the
beginning of the next block a bit harder when they were younger.

Anyhow, IME, there isn't one schedule that works best for all "little
kids". And you probably won't know what will work best for your child
until you experiment a bit.

--Robyn

[[email protected]]

Robyn Kozierok wrote:

> But you still have a 7-day cycle because the weekend days are
different.
> I don't see an inherent difficulty with learning that Saturday and
Sunday
> and Tuesday and Thursday, for example, are days that they don't go to
> school.

You're right, the weekend is different. But it's sufficiently different
that it feels different, I think. All the parents are home. If you
drive past the school, you can see no one's there. (Yes, we did that.)

> On the other hand, in the preschool we have used, the kids who went
all
> week were in the same classes as the kids who went part-time, and
that
> made my middle son feel that he was missing out on things (even
though
> activities were always planned in such a way that every child got to
do
> them). So, for that child, we went up to 5 days even though we
didn't
> need it for childcare reasons.

I rather suspect that's what happened with us, too. It was certainly a
factor in our going from half to full days. The kiddo talked us into
*trying* it for a week, and then was determined not to go back...

> My youngest, on the other hand, knows that some of the other kids are

> there when he is not, but doesn't mind staying home on the days when
> his school is "closed" for him.

Mine didn't mind staying home, exactly -- but they really wanted to be
in preschool.


> Anyhow, IME, there isn't one schedule that works best for all "little
> kids". And you probably won't know what will work best for your
child
> until you experiment a bit.

I'd agree with that. My guys threw out all my preconceptions.

Rupa

[[email protected]]

Robyn Kozierok wrote:
>
> Certain schedules do work better for different children. For
example,
> some children my do better with alternate days on and off, while mine
> always seemed to prefer a block of days on, and then a block of days
> off including the weekend, although this did make going back at the
> beginning of the next block a bit harder when they were younger.

My daughter did better with a block too. I would not have predicted
this. She used to be in full time "care" but was by herself with
grandma 3 days a week, and at day care 2 days a week. She had a
wonderful time playing with other children at day care, but preferred
grandma (more personal attention, plus having friends over). Each
morning that she was to go to day care, I would tell her in the morning
and hear lots of complaining. "I don't want to go to day care!!"

Anyway, we switched schedules around fairly frequently based on
convenience for grandma and a flexible day care. Day care Tues& Fri,
then Mon & Wed, etc. When we switch to two days in a row (I think it
was Tues & Wed) the whole complaining about day care thing got much
better. I think the schedule became much more predictable to her: You
don't go for a long time, then two days, then not for a long time. Even
Tuesdays (after 5 days off) weren't a problem.

This lasted until she started gaining awareness of the days of the week
around the age of 3.5. Once she knew that she went day X and day Y, she
would ask us each day "what day is today" and felt like she knew what
was going on. Then the pattern of days didn't seem to matter to her any
more, just that there was a pattern and she knew what it was.

Go figure.

Jan

PS Her preschool teacher was very impressed that she always knew the
day of the week. Seems they talked about "what day is today" each
morning. My daughter quizzed me every morning before school and thus
could shout out the answer. :)

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> For example when he wants me to sing him a song and I do it
> two or three times and he wants more, I will say "Daddy's losing his
> voice and needs to rest". He seems to do better if I explain to him
> rather than just ignore his request. But I think your right I should
> not use the baby as an explantion because he might start to resent
> him.

Well done. Also when you suggested that he look at
some books or toys, that's good too. Toddlers can get
distracted very quickly, so if you suggest an alternative
activity, if you're lucky, in seconds they may have forgotten they'd
asked for something else. So they don't feel frustrated.

You're treating him with respect and courtesy, and I'm
sure it will pay back many times over.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> We went looking for perhaps 2 or 3 days,
> but the school directory recommends five days.

Did they give a reason?

Remember, they make money off that decision, so they
may not be the best ones to ask.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Catherine Woodgold]

) writes:
> ...but that didn't make up for being in a child-centered environment
> with other kids. They don't play with each other at that age, but they
> (some of them, anyway), love to play around each other. This kid was
> very aware of other children from around 10-12 months old, and it was
> clear that preschool was a huge hit. I am *so* glad we did it.

>
> I think the Gymboree is a great idea.
>
> Rupa
>

Right. You can also look for other things such as "playgroups".
At schools and community centres, they have (or had, around
here anyway) times once or twice a week when
lots of parents brought their little kids to play
with toys together for a couple of hours.
The parents get to chat and hold their babies while
they watch their kids play. If you get to know
some other parents, you can also arrange private
playgroups in homes.

There were also swimming classes for a parent and
baby or a parent and toddler.

You could phone around and see what's available.
You could start with a school, hospital, community
centre or religious institution and ask them for ideas about
who else to phone to see what programs are
available in your community. Here in Ottawa,
it so happens that you can get somewhere by looking
up "Parent ..." in the white pages.
--
Cathy
A *much* better world is possible.

[Tomwaters]

> You're treating him with respect and courtesy, and I'm
> sure it will pay back many times over.

This week is better for wife even though we haven't hire
anyone yet.

This might be somewhat controversial topic, but we decided
to give the 19 month old a time out to stop his whining.
Basically, he whines continually when he doesn't get what
he wants and this drives my wife crazy. We know each time,
he finishes watching his favorite video, he will start to
whine because he doesn't want it to end. So we tried
out the time out hoping to get him to stop. After video
is over, we explain to him "no more" and will have to wait
till tommorrow to watch again. He goes into his routine
and instead of ignoring him, we say "mommy and daddy do
not want you to whine, after a couple of times, we than
say if you continue you will get a time out, after
a few minutes more of whining, we take himto a corner
away from the family room and say, Timmy timout, stay
here until daddy (or mommy) say its okay to leave. Whenever
he moves from the corner we pick him up and put him back.
After a minute or two we say Timmy, are you ready to stop
whining, if he calms down, we hug him and walk him back
to his chair. If he continues to whine we repeat this process.
I did it first and then had the wife try it as well. It took
5 time outs before he stopped his whining. We did this one
day last week and so far its work and no whining for five
straight days. This was suggested by a friend of ours and just
though I share it if anyone else is having this similar problem.

[[email protected]]

wrote:

> good with the baby. I talk to him like he understands so when I
> can't do something I always try to give him an explanation and it
seems
> to work. For example when he wants me to sing him a song and I do it
> two or three times and he wants more, I will say "Daddy's losing his
> voice and needs to rest". He seems to do better if I explain to him
> rather than just ignore his request.

Another strategy that works for us is to tell them before the last time
that the game is about to end.

i.e., sing the song twice. Then the child asks for it again, and you
say "ok, I will sing it ONE more time. This is the LAST time." Then you
sing it for the last time and no more.

My kids didn't really understand "why" much at this age (although great
if yours does, that make it easier) but knowing what was going to
happen in advance eased any transition, including things like singing a
song, holding them upside down, playing at the park, etc etc.

Jan

[shinypenny]

Tomwaters wrote:

> This might be somewhat controversial topic, but we decided
> to give the 19 month old a time out to stop his whining.

Not controversial as far as I'm concerned. I remember well the
time-outs I gave my DD#1 when she was around that age and her new baby
sister was born. What we did was essentially the same idea as you've
outlined, except sort of like a "reverse" time-out: baby and I would
park ourselves on the stairs, with the baby gate between us and DD.
We'd ignore her for a couple of minutes and that was the time-out.
Worked well because I could keep an eye on her so she didn't get into
trouble, and I didn't have the patience or energy to keep dragging her
back into a corner. She would stand at the baby gate the entire time.
Just make sure to give cuddles after the time-out, and explain again
why you did it. (And it goes without saying to give plenty of cuddles
and attention when the child is behaving well, too).

I was very consistent with the time-outs, and I believe this is why DD
never really went through a "terrible two's" stage (unless you count
ages 19-23 months).

jen

[Anon E. Mouse]

In article >, says...
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Is it really such a good idea to send a 19 month old to daycare monday
> > thru friday from 9am to 3pm? If it's really in the best interest of
> > the kid, I don't mind spending $500 a month, but then what happens
> > when the 2 month old gets to that age. Then it'll be $1000 a month.
> > With just my income and me not wanting to work more than 40 hours, it
> > would be very tough financially.
> >
> > What do you guys think? Any advice or suggestion?
>
> I have similar age gap between my eldest two children and it was pretty
> overwhelming for a time. Possibly as long as a year but definitely for the
> first 6 months or so until the second bub was sleeping through the night. I
> think a 19 month old would probably enjoy spending a day or two a week at
> daycare, especially as 9am to 3pm aren't long hours and your wife would be
> able to sleep while your baby napped and get a bit of rest during the day.
> With the proviso that the daycare is good quality and your son settles in
> well, etc. I probably wouldn't go for 5 days, though, unless your wife is at
> risk for post-natal depression.
>
> I wouldn't argue with your wife about *why* a bit of respite from each other
> would be a good idea but it does sound like your wife might be able to cope
> better if she gets some more rest. She may (wrongly) be feeling that she's
> inadequate as a mother when really the problem is that no one is a good
> parent if sleep-deprived.
>
> Does your wife have a network of friends with similarly aged children with
> whom she can arrange playdates? Any grandparents who'd love to babysit for
> a few hours a couple of times a week?
>
> What about the cost of hiring a regular babysitter to come in and take your
> oldest boy out for a couple of hours? At this stage the reciprocal nature of
> playdates might be a bit much for your wife while your baby is so young so I
> would look for other *regularly scheduled* solutions that your son would
> enjoy but that gave your wife a chance to catch her breath long enough to
> enjoy relating to him again. And vice versa.
>
> You do know this is a temporary situation, don't you? It will get better! I
> do think it would be a good idea for her to speak to a sympathetic doctor
> who is well-used to mothers of young children.
>
> Tai
>
>
>


It does not matter in the least whether or not she "enjoys relating to
him". Unless he is an unfit mother she will acknowledge her
responsibility to her child and live up to it. The kid did not decide
to have her--nor did any daycare workers or babysitters. Granted,
having a sitter or friend take the kid on occasion isn't such a big
deal, IMO, but that is to be a random treat. If she didn't want to be a
mother she shouldn't have chosen to be. Kids aren't party dresses that
you can buy on a whim and then return to the store when it isn't working
out. Taking up the responsibility of having children entails that you
also agree to be a parent--agreeing to *hire* a "parent" is not at all
the same thing.

I hate to say it, but I get the feeling that some people here are under
the illusion that a woman is some helpless "thing" that has to have free
time to sit and watch her soaps and get 10 hours of sleep a night. That
is sexist rubbish! It sounds to me like her husband is working harder
than her and taking it in stride. She needs to grow up and learn to
behave like an adult. There is absolutely no need here -- short of a
genuine psychological condition -- for her to require some other person
to play mother to *her* children.

And even if you want to reject all of this, one thing is clearly true:
before the child goes to any daycare, his/her mother needs to learn to
manage the child's behavior on her own. If she doesn't take that
seriously now, it'll be nothing more than dumb luck if the kid turns out
at all well. It is easier to prevent inappropriate behavior, etc., in
the first place than it is to correct it once it becomes ingrained. And
suffer no illusion: daycare workers are no patron saints of children.
Many of them have the job because it is *easy*, for god's sake!--easy
and it is the only work they can get with practically zero
qualifications and almost certain no children of their own.

AEM

[toto]

On Tue, 17 May 2005 18:50:35 EDT, "Anon E. Mouse"
> wrote:

>Many of them have the job because it is *easy*, for god's sake!--easy
>and it is the only work they can get with practically zero
>qualifications and almost certain no children of their own.

I have no idea where you get the idea that daycare workers believe
that this is easy work. It's not easy work at all and many workers
burn out after a few years.

Many women do take this work *because* they have children of their
own and they can take their children to their workplace more easily
or for a discounted price for the care. And others take the work
because they are unskilled in other areas, but love children. I am
sure they could get jobs at McDonald's or other unskilled retail jobs,
but this doesn't appeal to them (the pay is comparable).

Now, as a matter of fact, most daycares do require some qualifications
for those who work in centers and most states have requirements that
need to be filled. I have had good aides who were not academically
able, but were good with children. These folks did not do well in the
junior college classes that they had to take despite the fact that
they did very well with the kids. I am not sure that academic
requirements are what is necessary for a job like this one. It's more
like carpentry where experience and apprenticeship to a good carpenter
is better than going to school to *learn* without practicing the
skills.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits