Ideas sought... [Archive] - ParentingBanter.com

Chookie

May 24th 06, 10:47 AM

Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.

DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
participation/presence is a requirement.

The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?

I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.

The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
*two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.

<vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
-- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

[email protected]

May 24th 06, 10:51 AM

On Wed, 24 May 2006 19:47:13 +1000, Chookie
> wrote:

>Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
>DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
>afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
>home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
>singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
>the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
>participation/presence is a requirement.
>
>The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
>room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
>that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
>music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
>been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
>of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>
>I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
>in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
>babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
>pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
>rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>
>The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
>I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
>*two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.
>
><vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
>in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
>-- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
>over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
>dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>

Can you enrol DS2 as a student in the music class? :-)

It seems that paying students are allowed to "be distracting".

Apart from that semi-serious suggestion, I have no ideas. Sorry.

Cheryl

May 24th 06, 12:02 PM

Carol Hulls

May 24th 06, 01:17 PM

In article >,
Chookie > wrote:
>Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
>DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
>afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
>home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
>singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
>the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
>participation/presence is a requirement.
>
>The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
>room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
>that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
>music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
>been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
>of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>

My first thought was to suggest asking a teen or pre-teen to help -
just to play with DS2 while you are nearby in class, but this is hard
to do in the hallway. When my two attended a similar program there
was a separate playroom for before class, after class, and siblings
(although parents were responsible for supervision). My nieces now
attend the program and occasionally DD has babysat in the playroom
when either my S or BIL couldn't attend to mind the other child. (DD
loves babies and toddlers but she is still a little young in age,
although not maturity, to babysit completely on her own, so this is a
real treat for her.)

Do any of the other parents in the class have younger children as
well? Do you know what arrangements they are making for siblings?
Would it be possible to mention things to the ILs in terms of asking
them to handle some of the weeks? The tricky part is figuring out
what frequency they would appreciate without you imposing on them, but
if you do find something that works, it would at least cover some of
the weeks.

--
Carol

Banty

May 24th 06, 01:20 PM

In article >, Chookie
says...
>
>Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
>DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
>afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
>home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
>singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
>the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
>participation/presence is a requirement.
>
>The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
>room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
>that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
>music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
>been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
>of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>
>I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
>in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
>babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
>pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
>rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>
>The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
>I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
>*two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.

But the teacher is suggesting it - presumably he or she knows more of what the
manager allows than you. At the least, if the manager complains to you, you can
tell him the teacher suggested it.

>
><vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
>in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
>-- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
>over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
>dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>
>

But the four year old is a paying customer, and two 'wrongs' dont' make a right.

Bring a stroller and some toys, take him for walks in the hallway and outside
when the weather is good, letting him out of the stroller much of the time. But
away from the class. And stay on top of him as far as where he is and what he
gets into pretty much every minute.

Really, this one isn't a difficult problem. The real problem is that it is not
exactly relaxing to do what's needed, and you can't watch the older one take the
lesson if you do what's needed, so you haven't been willing. But you can't just
chill and let the baby run around.

Banty

--

Banty

May 24th 06, 01:34 PM

In article >, Banty says...
>
>In article >, Chookie
>says...
>>
>>Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>>
>>DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
>>afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
>>home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
>>singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
>>the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
>>participation/presence is a requirement.
>>
>>The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
>>room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
>>that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
>>music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
>>been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
>>of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>>
>>I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
>>in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
>>babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
>>pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
>>rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>>
>>The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
>>I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
>>*two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.
>
>But the teacher is suggesting it - presumably he or she knows more of what the
>manager allows than you. At the least, if the manager complains to you, you can
>tell him the teacher suggested it.
>
>>
>><vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
>>in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
>>-- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
>>over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
>>dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>
>>
>
>But the four year old is a paying customer, and two 'wrongs' dont' make a right.
>
>Bring a stroller and some toys, take him for walks in the hallway and outside
>when the weather is good, letting him out of the stroller much of the time. But
>away from the class. And stay on top of him as far as where he is and what he
>gets into pretty much every minute.
>
>Really, this one isn't a difficult problem. The real problem is that it is not
>exactly relaxing to do what's needed, and you can't watch the older one take the
>lesson if you do what's needed, so you haven't been willing. But you can't just
>chill and let the baby run around.
>

I missed the part about your participation being needed. Really? Is it? How
have you been doing that and having baby all this time anyway? Is this possibly
a requirement just to make sure they're not a babysitting service, and having to
deal with late pickups? What kind of participation do you need to do?

Possibly, you can discuss with the teacher and he or she will be happy if you're
just nearby.

I think you're unecessarily closing off your options, though. If the teacher
suggests the hallway, you imagine a disapproving manager. You assert your IL's
will be imposed upon if they watch the younger, but so often from what I've seen
IRL this isn't really the case. At any rate, they should want to help out with
predicaments for their grandchildren's sake, no? Can hubby truly not watch the
baby for awhile? Doesn't he at home? "Manager won't approve, imposing, not good
with babies" - I recognize a string of excusifying here. Bringing baby with you
simply is the most convenient option for you and you don't want to give it up.

I've been in classes with my son, like Tae Kwon Do, where youngers are a
problem, and the Master is caught between wanting a better environment for his
classes, and fear of losing patrons in a fairly competitive market. Cub Scouts
youngers presented a similar problem - there, there was more latitude, but kids
would get wilder and screamier as the parents take the opprotunity to sit and
visit.

Chookie - this really is a problem for others. People may smile at you and not
want to anger you, but their teeth is on edge, believe me.

If push comes to shove, you possibly should find a program with a nursery nearby
and conclude that thi isn't working.

Banty

--

Donna Metler

May 24th 06, 01:53 PM

Well, as a music teacher who teaches parent participation classes, my policy
is that younger siblings can't attend unless they're young enough to happily
spend the class in a carrier or sling (usually under about 6 months). A 1 yr
old in a class of preschoolers/early school aged kids is a major distraction
and the teacher is almost certainly concerned about liability if the 1 yr
old is injured.

As far as the 4 yr old, is he an enrolled student, or is he a sibling? You
can't really compare a non-enrolled child to an enrolled child, because,
simply, the enrolled child is part of the class and the non-enrolled child
isn't. I wouldn't have a 4 yr old in an instrumental class (and, in fact,
the group keyboard curriculum I'm familiar with is for 5-7 yr olds, with
most teachers not starting children until age 6), but that's the teacher's
call.

As far as younger son, could you find a teenager who would be willing to be
mother's helper (even a mature 12-13 yr old) who could possibly entertain
him in a corner somewhere and possibly keep him a bit more contained? The
other option is to see if there is a family music class designed for parents
to participate with children of multiple ages available. There are several
curriclums for such in the USA, but I don't know about Australia.

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

Barbara

May 24th 06, 03:16 PM

Banty wrote:
> In article >, Banty says...
SNIP
> Chookie - this really is a problem for others. People may smile at you and not
> want to anger you, but their teeth is on edge, believe me.
>
> If push comes to shove, you possibly should find a program with a nursery nearby
> and conclude that thi isn't working.
>
I have to agree with Banty here. On 2 occasions, the teacher has told
you that having your younger son in the classroom is distracting and
problematic. Complaining that another child -- who was accepted as a
student in the program -- also causes disruptions doesn't help the
matter. Besides, you have no clue what discussions the teacher has had
with that family.

As I see it, you have several options:

(i) Pull your older son out of the class;

(ii) Find someone else to take your older son to the class -- his
grandparents, a sitter, his father;

(iii) Find someone else to watch your younger child while the older
one is in class;

(iv) Talk to the teacher about whether your participation is really
required and, if it is not, leave and take your younger child elsewhere
during the class (how much are you participating in any event if you're
looking after the little one);

(v) Talk to the other parents in the class about what they have done
with younger sibs -- perhaps you could share a sitter with one of them;

(vi) Bring along a playpen or play yard, if one will fit in the room
without taking up room needed for the class, and have your younger son
remain in there if he can do so quietly. Yes, I know that 1 year-olds
don't like such things and, frankly, I'm not at all fond of them. But
its the only thing that I can think of to safely restrain him;

(vii) And in the future, of course, be sure to check into arrangements
for siblings and the need of a parent to participate before signing up
for classes.

Barbara

Jeff

May 24th 06, 03:19 PM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
> Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is
> 5.

(...)

> I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad
> lives
> in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
> babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30
> and
> pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
> rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.

Two things come to mind that haven't been said.

1) Bring dad with you. He might enjoy getting out and being with your son.
This might be enough of a distraction to help stay occupied.
2) Ask your ILs. They might be delighted to get their grandson to themselves
once a week for four hours. Make it clear that you are bringing him to class
and there isn't a problem. They may jump at the chance or say "No Thanks. We
too busy." You have nothing to lose by asking.

Jeff

Ericka Kammerer

May 24th 06, 03:21 PM

Chookie wrote:
> Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
> DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
> afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
> home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
> singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
> the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
> participation/presence is a requirement.
>
> The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
> room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
> that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
> music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
> been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
> of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>
> I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
> in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
> babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
> pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
> rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>
> The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
> I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
> *two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.
>
> <vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
> in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
> -- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
> over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
> dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>

I hear your frustration, but personally, I still think
it's inappropriate to have a toddler disrupting a class (even
if there's a paying participant who's also being disruptive).
I know well the issues you're having--I've got two older boys
with lots of activities and a now-almost-3yo, so we've been
through lots of times where the older kids' activities aren't
all that appropriate for the younger one. Our struggle is
piano as well, as there is no way the 2yo is going to be still
and quiet during lessons. I bring activities and sit in the
car with her until Dad can spirit her away. I understand you
have limited options. Some suggestions:

1) Look for a local drop-in daycare for the 1yo.
2) Hire a babysitter, either near your home for a
long stretch, or near the class for a short stretch.
3) Bite the bullet and ask the grandparents if they'd be
willing. You never know--they might find it nice time
alone with the small fry.
4) Bring along a "mother's helper" to the class (or see
if one of the other families has an older sib capable
of taking the 1yo somewhere nearby to play).
5) If Dad can't effectively watch the 1yo, can he
effectively manage the parent participation part of
the keyboard lesson?
6) Switch to lessons where parental participation is
not required.
7) Have afternoon tea at home to shorten the time away
from home (or a sitter).
8) Maybe Grandma or Grandpa would enjoy being the
adult participant at the keyboard lesson and you
could have some nice 1-on-1 time with DS2?

Best wishes,
Ericka

Penny Gaines

May 24th 06, 03:40 PM

Chookie wrote:
> Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
[snip]
> I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
> in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
> babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
> pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
> rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
[snip]

Could you invite one of the in-laws along, sand have a family outing -
you could bring them along for tea, and then have either them or you
look after the 1yo, while the other does the parent participation part.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

shinypenny

May 24th 06, 04:34 PM

Cheryl wrote:

> I don't know how she can say that parental participation is necessary
> and then say that you can take #2 out into the hallway to play with
> him. Either your presence is necessary all the time or you could be
> nowhere near the place, there really isn't any middle ground there. I
> would asking her which one she really wanted and if she was more
> interested in having DS1 as a paying student than DS2 as a distraction
> you could then take off to a local park.

That was my thought too. When DD1 is taking piano lessons, DD2 and I
leave the premises and tackle the weekly grocery shopping, since the
grocery store is only 1/4 mile away. I am reachable by cell if there's
ever an issue, and the teacher knows exactly where I am. I can be back
within minutes if need be.

The teacher's major concern is ensuring I am back at the end of the
lesson and not a minute later, because by then she is ready to knock
off for the day and feed her husband and as much as she adores my DD,
she is not a babysitter. :-)

Apparently my ex has abused this on occasion, taking the opportunity to
run all over town and the attitude "oh DD isn't a bother for a few
extra minutes." He's never been all that good respecting other people's
time, sigh.... But I've got shopping down to a science so we always
arrive back 5 minutes before the lesson ends.

jen

toypup

May 24th 06, 04:52 PM

"Cheryl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I don't know how she can say that parental participation is necessary
> and then say that you can take #2 out into the hallway to play with
> him. Either your presence is necessary all the time or you could be
> nowhere near the place, there really isn't any middle ground there. I
> would asking her which one she really wanted and if she was more
> interested in having DS1 as a paying student than DS2 as a distraction
> you could then take off to a local park.

I've been to classes where parent participation is a must and parents cannot
bring in siblings unless they pay for the sibling. It is made clear that
parents must arrange for childcare for siblings not enrolled in the class.

Banty

May 24th 06, 05:52 PM

In article om>, Irene says...
>
>
>Banty wrote:
>
>> Can hubby truly not watch the
>> baby for awhile? Doesn't he at home?
>
>I read the OP as Chookie's Dad, not her hubby. ;) I'm assuming
>Chookie's dh is at work during the class?

Ah - probaby that's the case. But then, can he (the grandpa) do the parent
participation part if it's really something more than just being there and
occassional help or feedback?

>
>I do think Ericka and others had some good ideas further down the
>thread. It's disappointing they don't have better facilities for
>siblings during class. Ds had gymnastics where they had a play area
>for siblings, which worked out nicely besides the fact that I couldn't
>really watch the class very well. I lucked out that ds got out of the
>parent participation class right about the time that dd was getting
>more mobile (and she wasn't disruptive - it was just that I needed to
>chase her.)

All that would be nice, but if every program had to do that, there would be
fewer programs.

I've had to deal with cases where *both* parents are present, but they still
hang out with the youngers during TKD class or Cub Scouts, with the youngers
running around being disruptive. Chookie *does* have options, just none that
are as perfecty-perfect for her as having the baby with her and everyone else
dealing.

>
>And while hallways with ungated stairs aren't ideal, they should be
>manageable for one caregiver and one toddler, since the caregiver
>wouldn't also be tending to an older child. Heck, it could be a good
>time to practice going up and down stairs!

That's right. And, since the teacher is the one who suggested it, presumably
the parent participation part woudln't interfere (?). Chookie will have to come
back and answer (how dare she be asleep down under there when we have questions
for her! ;-) , but, to me, if she's been doing parent participation with baby
in tow, *and* the teacher him or herself suggested the hallway, it's not all
that involving. Plus - making the excuse that the *teacher's* manager might not
approve to go to the hallway - c'mon, that's not Chookie's problem. Flags go up
in my head when I hear folks reaching for reasons like that.

If she really can't have inlaws or granpa involved, the ideas would be either
bringing someone else with (possibly hired), or tag teaming with another parent
in a similar predicament.

This may be a time for the "10 year old babysitter". I posted on that looooong
time ago. Ten year olds are great in that they are still kids enough themselves
to keep a small child really occupied, and just getting responsible enough to
watch littles and follow through in tasks, in situations where an adult backup
is closeby since they're not mature enough for unexpected difficulties and
emergencies. Although maybe a setting other than the hallways with the two
ungated stairways might be better for that - maybe an unused room next door? If
not that, an older teen. If she's lucky, she may be grooming a future
babysitter for herself!

Banty

--

Donna Metler

May 25th 06, 12:30 AM

FWIW, most parent participation curricula I'm familiar with stop requiring
parent participation through all of class at age 3-4, and instead have a
"sharing time" at the end where the children show their parents what they've
done-this is both because of the growing independence of kids at this stage
(and that often they get confused with both teacher and parent present and
have trouble focusing because of not knowing which parent to listen to) and
because it is more the rule than the exception that preschoolers will have
baby brother/sister in tow. And, unofficially, if parents have to be back
30 minutes into a 45 minute lesson, it usually means that I'm not trying to
explain to a scared 3 yr old that Daddy probably just got caught up
somewhere (in fact, I request that parent not leave for the 30 minutes at
all-because if your child needs assistance, I can't leave the rest of the
group behind in order to take one preschooler potty). I'm guessing that is
the situation here. Suzuki requires that the parent be present and
participate throughout the entire lesson, but that's not a group approach.

As far as room set up, such programs usually operate on a very limited
budget, and having a separate room for a waiting area would be nice, but if
you're having to rent space is likely to be financially impossible. I'm very
fortunate, because I teach in literally a model classroom, so we have an
observation room where parents can sit and watch (and hear) classes (or play
with younger sibling) along with the college kids observing for their
required hours-but the students can't see or hear them. However, I'm not
paying for such a set up, and the lesson fees charged by our program do not
pay for the building or grounds in any way, and are comparable to similar
programs teaching in much less ideal situations.

--
Donna DeVore Metler
Orff Music Specialist/Kindermusik
Mother to Angel Brian Anthony 1/1/2002, 22 weeks, severe PE/HELLP
And Allison Joy, 11/25/04 (35 weeks, PIH, Pre-term labor)

FlowerGirl

May 25th 06, 02:22 AM

"Jeff" > wrote in message
k.net...
>
> "Chookie" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is
> > 5.
>
> (...)
>
> > I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad
> > lives
> > in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
> > babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30
> > and
> > pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and
is
> > rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>
> Two things come to mind that haven't been said.
>
> 1) Bring dad with you. He might enjoy getting out and being with your son.
> This might be enough of a distraction to help stay occupied.
> 2) Ask your ILs. They might be delighted to get their grandson to
themselves
> once a week for four hours. Make it clear that you are bringing him to
class
> and there isn't a problem. They may jump at the chance or say "No Thanks.
We
> too busy." You have nothing to lose by asking.
>
I was just going to suggest something similar.

Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad precious, but rules are
rules I guess. That being said, fire hazard rules are also *rules* and they
legally can't ask you to play in a hallway.... which is unsafe for a toddler
at any rate.
Surely they've encountered a mother with more than one child to look after
at a time??? Maybe you could tag-team with another Mum there?

At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as the
issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
Hope something works out.
Amanda

toypup

May 25th 06, 02:32 AM

"FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
...
> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as the
> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
> Hope something works out.
> Amanda

I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just offering a
suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her child
out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.

Ericka Kammerer

May 25th 06, 03:17 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:

> Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad precious, but rules are
> rules I guess. That being said, fire hazard rules are also *rules* and they
> legally can't ask you to play in a hallway.... which is unsafe for a toddler
> at any rate.
> Surely they've encountered a mother with more than one child to look after
> at a time???

This is one of my pet peeves. Everyone in the
class paid to be there. They deserve 100 percent of
the teacher's attention, and they do not deserve to be
disturbed by children who aren't in the class. (They
don't deserve to be disturbed by children *in* the
class either, but that's another issue, and besides
that, two wrongs don't make a right.) These classes
don't exist as entertainment for the younger sibs.
It's not like there aren't alternatives. One can ask
for friends or family to help. One can pay someone
to help. If all else fails, there are other ways of
getting musical instruction that don't require parental
participation. However you slice it, though, the toddler
is *not* the teacher's problem, nor is he the students'
problem. I understand fully how challenging it is to
deal with all that, given that I have a toddler and
much older children with quite a few activities not
suitable for small kids, but it is *MY* responsibility
to figure out how to resolve the issue, not everyone
else's responsibility to put up with my toddler in an
environment not designed for that purpose. You just
go through some years where most kids will not sit
down and play quietly in one place for long enough
to accommodate a class, so you have to find a way to
work around it and not impose on others.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Donna Metler

May 25th 06, 05:06 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> FlowerGirl wrote:
>
> > Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad precious, but rules
are
> > rules I guess. That being said, fire hazard rules are also *rules* and
they
> > legally can't ask you to play in a hallway.... which is unsafe for a
toddler
> > at any rate.
> > Surely they've encountered a mother with more than one child to look
after
> > at a time???
>
> This is one of my pet peeves. Everyone in the
> class paid to be there. They deserve 100 percent of
> the teacher's attention, and they do not deserve to be
> disturbed by children who aren't in the class. (They
> don't deserve to be disturbed by children *in* the
> class either, but that's another issue, and besides
> that, two wrongs don't make a right.) These classes
> don't exist as entertainment for the younger sibs.
> It's not like there aren't alternatives. One can ask
> for friends or family to help. One can pay someone
> to help. If all else fails, there are other ways of
> getting musical instruction that don't require parental
> participation. However you slice it, though, the toddler
> is *not* the teacher's problem, nor is he the students'
> problem. I understand fully how challenging it is to
> deal with all that, given that I have a toddler and
> much older children with quite a few activities not
> suitable for small kids, but it is *MY* responsibility
> to figure out how to resolve the issue, not everyone
> else's responsibility to put up with my toddler in an
> environment not designed for that purpose. You just
> go through some years where most kids will not sit
> down and play quietly in one place for long enough
> to accommodate a class, so you have to find a way to
> work around it and not impose on others.
>
In addition, at least in the US, most of the major ECED music programs offer
a family class, and in fact, there are two that I know of which offer
family/multi-aged classes as their only or primary method of delivery. I
don't know the situation in Australia, but here, there are options for
families with multiple children. In addition, traditional lessons, as
opposed to group classes and Suzuki instruction, does not require parental
participation, and many preschools and after school programs offer pull-out
music instruction which does not require parent participation at the school,
although it may at home.

The teacher is well within her rights to have in her policies that younger
siblings may not attend, and, in fact, if it is truly a parental
participation class, is already bending the curriculum and her policies to
suggest that the parent take the younger child elsewhere. In general, if a
class is written as parental participation, the expectation is active
participation and it requires real effort to support the child who doesn't
have a parent present for whatever reason, and is hard on the child who
misses that active attention from the parent/adult. I had one poor little 4
yr old in my class this past semester who's father spent most of the
semester outside the room, talking on his cell phone-and it was definitely
hard on the little tyke to be the one child without an "adult friend" for
sharing time, and no, doing her song for Ms. Donna didn't cut it.

Regardless, it is the teacher's perogative to set standards and policies-and
if you don't like it, you're free to go elsewhere.

> Best wishes,
> Ericka

Rosalie B.

May 25th 06, 05:18 AM

"toypup" > wrote:

>
>"Cheryl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I don't know how she can say that parental participation is necessary
>> and then say that you can take #2 out into the hallway to play with
>> him. Either your presence is necessary all the time or you could be
>> nowhere near the place, there really isn't any middle ground there. I
>> would asking her which one she really wanted and if she was more
>> interested in having DS1 as a paying student than DS2 as a distraction
>> you could then take off to a local park.
>
>I've been to classes where parent participation is a must and parents cannot
>bring in siblings unless they pay for the sibling. It is made clear that
>parents must arrange for childcare for siblings not enrolled in the class.
>
That isn't what she has said though.

Unless she wasn't really supposed to bring #2 or unless they were
going to allow it thinking he was a more placid type child (or
younger).

I often had younger children along at older ones activities, and I did
have an incident once but it was a swimming lesson where dd#1 was
reluctant to put her face in the [cold] water, and dd#2 escaped my
grasp and ran to the pool and said I can put MY head in the water, and
jumped in fully dressed - shoes and all, went to the bottom (she was
almost 3 and couldn't swim), and came up and said "See" and went back
down again. The teacher hauled her out of the water and returned her
to me with the STRONG suggestion that I keep better control of her.

So I generally sat farther away during the lessons.

Chookie

May 25th 06, 11:42 AM

In article >, Banty >
wrote:

> >The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
> >I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one,
> >but *two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a
> >loss.
>
> But the teacher is suggesting it - presumably he or she knows more of what
> the manager allows than you. At the least, if the manager complains to you,
> you can tell him the teacher suggested it.

The teacher is very young and quite new, and perhaps not familiar with the
concept of Public Liability Insurance. My required presence in the classroom
may have more to do with that than anything else. I will ask the teacher to
check that this is acceptable.

<snip quoted vent>

> But the four year old is a paying customer, and two 'wrongs' dont' make a
> right.

That's why it's a vent. Life isn't fair. Nothing I can do about this
situation, especially now the teacher has spoken to *me* -- can you imagine
how bad it would sound to suggest the little boy go to the preschool class?!
But Blind Freddy can see it though, and for all I know the teacher has already
suggested it to the mother.

> Really, this one isn't a difficult problem. The real problem is that it is
> not exactly relaxing to do what's needed, and you can't watch the older one
> take the lesson if you do what's needed, so you haven't been willing. But
> you can't just chill and let the baby run around.

The real problem is that you haven't read the OP carefully. Where does it say
that my role is merely to watch DS1? That I haven't been actively trying to
keep DS2 out of the way? And that I'm just chilling and letting the baby run
around? Did you need coffee when you posted?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 12:10 PM

In article >, Banty >
wrote:

> I missed the part about your participation being needed. Really? Is it? How
> have you been doing that and having baby all this time anyway? Is this
> possibly a requirement just to make sure they're not a babysitting service,
> and having to deal with late pickups? What kind of participation do you
> need to do?

Quite possibly these are the times that DS2 is distracting the teacher! We
join in some dances/ rhythm patterns, open books to the correct page, help
seat our children properly at their keyboards, admire, applaud and encourage.
We also provide the usual parent interpreting service -- explaining the child
to the teacher.

> I think you're unecessarily closing off your options, though. If the teacher
> suggests the hallway, you imagine a disapproving manager. You assert your
> IL's will be imposed upon if they watch the younger, but so often from what
> I've seen IRL this isn't really the case. At any rate, they should want to
> help out with predicaments for their grandchildren's sake, no?

One would think so, but I hesitate to ask anyone to mind a baby for a period
that includes arsenic hour, particularly older people. He's still a very
booby boy. Let's say the ILs will be a way down the list.

>Can hubby truly not watch the baby for awhile? Doesn't he at home?

Well, DH is usually at work at 4:15. However, your use of the word 'home' has
reminded me that most of the firm work from home on Wednesdays, and DH is able
to do this. Perhaps this will be simple to solve after all!

> "Manager won't approve, imposing, not good with babies" - I recognize a
> string of excusifying here. Bringing baby with you simply
> is the most convenient option for you and you don't want to give it up.

Of course not. I was really hoping some one would come up with a suite of
toys that would keep DS2 happily and quietly occupied for 45 mins, but as his
favourite activities atm include pulling books off shelves and stuff out of
cupboards, that may be a lost cause. (Has anyone invented a portable kitchen
cupboard full of tupperware yet?!)

> Chookie - this really is a problem for others. People may smile at you and
> not want to anger you, but their teeth is on edge, believe me.

I would be more inclined to think so if I had not previously been in a class
with a busy toddler who was the younger sibling of a student. That is why I
was surprised when the teacher complained. But as several people have said,
it's her class.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 12:22 PM

In article om>,
"Irene" > wrote:

> I read the OP as Chookie's Dad, not her hubby. ;) I'm assuming
> Chookie's dh is at work during the class?

Yep. It's my Dad who's legally blind.

> I do think Ericka and others had some good ideas further down the
> thread. It's disappointing they don't have better facilities for
> siblings during class.

Yes, it's a tight fit. They have a tiny waiting area with some toys and 4
seats, right at the top of a steep flight of stairs. I leave the stroller at
the foot of the stairs as there is no place I could leave it upstairs
withoutcausing a hazard to shipping. The space is all music rooms, and on
weekday afternoons they are in heavy use. I don't know how the people
downstairs (medical imaging) put up with the noise of feet dancing around a
Mexican Hat all day, let alone a constant stream of faulty renditions of Fur
Elise... How *do* music teachers cope?!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 12:43 PM

In article >,
"Donna Metler" > wrote:

> FWIW, most parent participation curricula I'm familiar with stop requiring
> parent participation through all of class at age 3-4, and instead have a
> "sharing time" at the end where the children show their parents what they've
> done

No, not in this case. They are very into kinaesthetic learning so there's a
lot of dancing, singing, rhythm games, etc, with parents dancing with the
child or helping with the rhythm. Also, parents keep the kids focussed. 5yos
are not at their best after a day of school and a parent can cut the gigglies
short before the child gets completely silly. We do have little
'performances' from time to time, but they seem to be mid-lesson.

I like the physical activity of the class -- the last thing a 5yo can cope
with is 45 mins sitting at a keyboard in the late afternoon. This school's
style of teaching seems very much in tune with the developmental stage of the
children -- short activities and plenty of movement. I like the
listen-and-guess-the-note-sequence game too.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 12:48 PM

In article >,
wrote:

> Can you enrol DS2 as a student in the music class? :-)

Not for another 6 months, and it would be a different class.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 12:51 PM

In article . com>,
"Cheryl" > wrote:

> I don't know how she can say that parental participation is necessary
> and then say that you can take #2 out into the hallway to play with
> him. Either your presence is necessary all the time or you could be
> nowhere near the place, there really isn't any middle ground there.

Yes, this is what concerned me about the suggestion, and why I'll suggest she
OK it with the boss first.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 25th 06, 01:10 PM

Here are all the suggestions so far. Thank you all for helping; I'll let you
know what pans out.

* Talk to the teacher about whether your participation is really
required and, if it is not, leave and take your younger child elsewhere
during the class

* Get DH to work from home on Wednesdays and be a bit less productive for
some of it.

* Bite the bullet and ask the grandparents if they'd be
willing to babysit.

* Look for a local drop-in daycare for the 1yo.

* invite one of the in-laws along, and have either them or you
look after the 1yo, while the other does the parent participation part.

* Hire a babysitter, either near your home for a
long stretch, or near the class for a short stretch.

* Bring along a "mother's helper" (=young babysitter?) to the class

* tag teaming with another parent in a similar predicament, or share a
babysitter.

* Bring along a playpen

* Switch to lessons where parental participation is
not required.

* Switch to lessons with a nursery.

* Pull your older son out of the class

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Banty

May 25th 06, 01:11 PM

In article >, Chookie
says...
>
>In article >, Banty >
>wrote:
>
>> >The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
>> >I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one,
>> >but *two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a
>> >loss.
>>
>> But the teacher is suggesting it - presumably he or she knows more of what
>> the manager allows than you. At the least, if the manager complains to you,
>> you can tell him the teacher suggested it.
>
>The teacher is very young and quite new, and perhaps not familiar with the
>concept of Public Liability Insurance. My required presence in the classroom
>may have more to do with that than anything else. I will ask the teacher to
>check that this is acceptable.

Still, it's not _your_ problem. And have you seen their insurance policy or
limitations? Do you truly know what it is, or is this your guess. The teacher
you think isn't knowledgable because she's new, but you, as a partron, knows all
their restrictions?? C'mon. There's no reason for you to overrule her. If
you're right about the insurance thing, let the manager talk to her. It's
simply not your purview to be concerning yourself about it. You're closing off
one of your options.

>
><snip quoted vent>
>
>> But the four year old is a paying customer, and two 'wrongs' dont' make a
>> right.
>
>That's why it's a vent. Life isn't fair. Nothing I can do about this
>situation, especially now the teacher has spoken to *me* -- can you imagine
>how bad it would sound to suggest the little boy go to the preschool class?!
>But Blind Freddy can see it though, and for all I know the teacher has already
>suggested it to the mother.

I don't even know if it's "unfair". The child is getting a lesson. To be
"fair", is the music school to reject all students with ADHD or simliar
problems, if they're to otherwise keep a non-distracting atmosphere??

>
>> Really, this one isn't a difficult problem. The real problem is that it is
>> not exactly relaxing to do what's needed, and you can't watch the older one
>> take the lesson if you do what's needed, so you haven't been willing. But
>> you can't just chill and let the baby run around.
>
>The real problem is that you haven't read the OP carefully. Where does it say
>that my role is merely to watch DS1? That I haven't been actively trying to
>keep DS2 out of the way? And that I'm just chilling and letting the baby run
>around? Did you need coffee when you posted?
>

OK, the first time I missed that they needed parent participation. I did
correct that - possibly you haven't read farther into the thread (where's your
tea - fix it now.) But, in this list of "where does it say I didn't...", I
don't see what parent participation IS needed. That's what I'm curious about.
And, if the baby is disruptive, whatever you're doing ain't working.

You simply need to use one of your other existing options, or try one of new
ones suggested in this thread. Yes, none of them will be as smashingly
convenient and free of charge as what you're presently doing. But that's only
because it's at cost to others at the music school.

Banty

--

Ericka Kammerer

May 25th 06, 01:16 PM

Chookie wrote:

> Of course not. I was really hoping some one would come up with a suite of
> toys that would keep DS2 happily and quietly occupied for 45 mins, but as his
> favourite activities atm include pulling books off shelves and stuff out of
> cupboards, that may be a lost cause. (Has anyone invented a portable kitchen
> cupboard full of tupperware yet?!)

I think the reason that you haven't heard this
suggestion is that most of us who've been there realize
that it's futile ;-) There are very rare toddlers who'll
sit quietly and play in this sort of situation, but not
enough of them that better toys seems like a reasonable
solution to propose!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty

May 25th 06, 02:18 PM

In article >, Ericka Kammerer
says...
>
>Chookie wrote:
>
>> Of course not. I was really hoping some one would come up with a suite of
>>toys that would keep DS2 happily and quietly occupied for 45 mins, but as his
>> favourite activities atm include pulling books off shelves and stuff out of
>>cupboards, that may be a lost cause. (Has anyone invented a portable kitchen
>> cupboard full of tupperware yet?!)
>
> I think the reason that you haven't heard this
>suggestion is that most of us who've been there realize
>that it's futile ;-) There are very rare toddlers who'll
>sit quietly and play in this sort of situation, but not
>enough of them that better toys seems like a reasonable
>solution to propose!
>

I don't see the post you responded to, but, since we've all been parents of
toddlers, yes, you're right. Something might work *once*, but not time after
time.

But mostly, whatever would work would have to mean a *lot* of second to second
parental attention to the toddler, kinda like having a toddler with you on an
airline flight. And that doesn't accomodate a kinesthetic parent-participation
music class.

Banty

--

Penny Gaines

May 25th 06, 05:04 PM

Chookie wrote:
> Here are all the suggestions so far. Thank you all for helping; I'll let you
> know what pans out.
[snip]

And of course, you can mix-n-match: one week, dad works at home, the
next the baby goes to the in-laws, the week after the baby visits a
friend etc etc.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

toto

May 26th 06, 06:36 AM

On Thu, 25 May 2006 21:22:03 +1000, Chookie
> wrote:

>Yep. It's my Dad who's legally blind.

Chookie, did you see my announcement of the discussion in news.groups
about creating a newsgroup called soc.support.vision-impaired for
people who work with or want to know about vision-impairments and
things that can help people who are vision-impaired?

You may want to watch the discussion if you think you might read or
post to such a group.

--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..

The Outer Limits

Catherine Woodgold

May 26th 06, 03:11 PM

Banty ) writes:
> Ah - probaby that's the case. But then, can he (the grandpa) do the parent
> participation part if it's really something more than just being there and
> occassional help or feedback?

Maybe parent participation mostly means being there in
case your kid starts crying or something. you could do
this fine by playing in the hall and just coming in
if needed.

Catherine Woodgold

May 26th 06, 03:22 PM

Here are some ideas.

You could play with DS2 in the hall using a harness/tether.

You could try to have DS2 have lots and lots of exercise
just before the class. (During the "tea"?) Then he
might be calmer.

You could try to schedule naps so that DS2 is having a
nap during the class. (unlikely to work but I thought
I would mention it.)

You could hold DS2 and pace back and forth, doing funny things
like touching him on the nose to keep him entertained.
Might only work for a few minutes and teacher might complain
anyway.

You could try to find a corner of the room where the
students and teacher can't see you and DS playing.

You could try to get another child to play with DS:
doesn't have to be age 12, could be younger since
you're there too to supervise. (Would need a safe
nearby room or corner of room though.)

Nerf toys. They're quiet. How about a bunch of blocks
made of sponge material, and building towers with them
so they don't make any noise when they fall.

Making facial expressions. Playing peek-a-boo.

You could try to do entertaining things when DS2 is
looking but the class and (especially) teacher aren't,
such as dramatically pulling out of your pocket
another interesting toy from time to time during
the class.

Doing "magic tricks".

Good luck. I know it isn't easy.

FlowerGirl

May 26th 06, 10:31 PM

FlowerGirl

May 26th 06, 10:33 PM

"toypup" > wrote in message
. com...
>
> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
> ...
> > At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as the
> > issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
> > Hope something works out.
> > Amanda
>
> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just offering
a
> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her child
> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.

and the suggestion was unsafe.

FlowerGirl

May 26th 06, 10:38 PM

"Donna Metler" > wrote in message
. ..

> >
> In addition, at least in the US, most of the major ECED music programs
offer
> a family class, and in fact, there are two that I know of which offer
> family/multi-aged classes as their only or primary method of delivery. I
> don't know the situation in Australia, but here, there are options for
> families with multiple children. In addition, traditional lessons, as
> opposed to group classes and Suzuki instruction, does not require parental
> participation, and many preschools and after school programs offer
pull-out
> music instruction which does not require parent participation at the
school,
> although it may at home.
>
> The teacher is well within her rights to have in her policies that younger
> siblings may not attend, and, in fact, if it is truly a parental
> participation class, is already bending the curriculum and her policies to
> suggest that the parent take the younger child elsewhere. In general, if a
> class is written as parental participation, the expectation is active
> participation and it requires real effort to support the child who doesn't
> have a parent present for whatever reason, and is hard on the child who
> misses that active attention from the parent/adult. I had one poor little
4
> yr old in my class this past semester who's father spent most of the
> semester outside the room, talking on his cell phone-and it was definitely
> hard on the little tyke to be the one child without an "adult friend" for
> sharing time, and no, doing her song for Ms. Donna didn't cut it.
>
> Regardless, it is the teacher's perogative to set standards and
policies-and
> if you don't like it, you're free to go elsewhere.

Prezactly ... which is what I'd be doing.
The music schools in our area are much more accomodating to the need of
their clients ... *families* ... as they realise that they need to
accomodate them in order to make a buck. They have more of an all-ages
style for the under 5s which still alows for the older kids to have 1-on-1
with the teacher at the keyboard while Bubs are doing a different activity.
my 2c
Amanda

Ericka Kammerer

May 27th 06, 12:16 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "toypup" > wrote in message
> . com...
>> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as the
>>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
>>> Hope something works out.
>>> Amanda
>> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just offering
> a
>> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her child
>> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
>
> and the suggestion was unsafe.

? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
would take more effort than the parent is interested
in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
worth suggesting.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Catherine Woodgold

May 27th 06, 12:19 AM

Banty ) writes:
> But mostly, whatever would work would have to mean a *lot* of second to second
> parental attention to the toddler, kinda like having a toddler with you on an
> airline flight. And that doesn't accomodate a kinesthetic parent-participation
> music class.

Maybe -- but maybe there are ways to get the toddler involved,
such as lifting the toddler up and down in time to the music.

Ericka Kammerer

May 27th 06, 12:26 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> FlowerGirl wrote:
>>
>>> Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad precious, but rules
> are
>>> rules I guess. That being said, fire hazard rules are also *rules* and
> they
>>> legally can't ask you to play in a hallway.... which is unsafe for a
> toddler
>>> at any rate.
>>> Surely they've encountered a mother with more than one child to look
> after
>>> at a time???
>> This is one of my pet peeves. Everyone in the
>> class paid to be there. They deserve 100 percent of
>> the teacher's attention, and they do not deserve to be
>> disturbed by children who aren't in the class. (They
>> don't deserve to be disturbed by children *in* the
>> class either, but that's another issue, and besides
>> that, two wrongs don't make a right.) These classes
>> don't exist as entertainment for the younger sibs.
>> It's not like there aren't alternatives. One can ask
>> for friends or family to help. One can pay someone
>> to help. If all else fails, there are other ways of
>> getting musical instruction that don't require parental
>> participation. However you slice it, though, the toddler
>> is *not* the teacher's problem, nor is he the students'
>> problem. I understand fully how challenging it is to
>> deal with all that, given that I have a toddler and
>> much older children with quite a few activities not
>> suitable for small kids, but it is *MY* responsibility
>> to figure out how to resolve the issue, not everyone
>> else's responsibility to put up with my toddler in an
>> environment not designed for that purpose. You just
>> go through some years where most kids will not sit
>> down and play quietly in one place for long enough
>> to accommodate a class, so you have to find a way to
>> work around it and not impose on others.
>>
>
> Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having in
> using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
> solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.

It is not the responsibility of the teacher
to be all things to all people. If she wants to run
a parent participation class for 4-6 year olds, then
it is her prerogative to do so. Presumably, people
choose that class because that's what they want. Perhaps
they have been to other sorts of classes and have not
liked them and have deliberately chosen this model.
Sure, if a bunch of people don't like it and vote with
their feet, then the teacher will either decide she
wants to teach a different sort of class or go begging
for clients. However, it could just as easily be
the case that there are plenty of people who *DO* want
this model. Are you saying that just because we know
of one parent for whom this model isn't a great fit,
it necessarily follows that all the other parents in
the class would like it better if it were a family
class? It may well be that this teacher already *is*
serving the needs and interests of the majority of
the parents. It's not even the case that all of us
who *have* toddlers necessarily prefer multi-aged
classes where the toddler is also welcome.
Just because you're paying for something doesn't
mean that you can do whatever you please, even if it
disturbs other paying clients and the teacher. (And
I certainly don't think that Chookie would expect
that, either!)

Best wishes,
Ericka

FlowerGirl

May 27th 06, 04:34 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> FlowerGirl wrote:
> > "toypup" > wrote in message
> > . com...
> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as
the
> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
> >>> Hope something works out.
> >>> Amanda
> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
offering
> > a
> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her
child
> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
> >
> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
>
> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
> would take more effort than the parent is interested
> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
> worth suggesting.
>
> Best wishes,

Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of fire.
You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything else.
Amanda
> Ericka

FlowerGirl

May 27th 06, 04:36 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> > Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> > It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having
in
> > using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
> > solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
>
> It is not the responsibility of the teacher
> to be all things to all people. If she wants to run
> a parent participation class for 4-6 year olds, then
> it is her prerogative to do so. Presumably, people
> choose that class because that's what they want. Perhaps
> they have been to other sorts of classes and have not
> liked them and have deliberately chosen this model.
> Sure, if a bunch of people don't like it and vote with
> their feet, then the teacher will either decide she
> wants to teach a different sort of class or go begging
> for clients. However, it could just as easily be
> the case that there are plenty of people who *DO* want
> this model. Are you saying that just because we know
> of one parent for whom this model isn't a great fit,
> it necessarily follows that all the other parents in
> the class would like it better if it were a family
> class? It may well be that this teacher already *is*
> serving the needs and interests of the majority of
> the parents. It's not even the case that all of us
> who *have* toddlers necessarily prefer multi-aged
> classes where the toddler is also welcome.
> Just because you're paying for something doesn't
> mean that you can do whatever you please, even if it
> disturbs other paying clients and the teacher. (And
> I certainly don't think that Chookie would expect
> that, either!)
>

Well we'll have to agree to disagree it seems.
A
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

Banty

May 27th 06, 02:23 PM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
>> FlowerGirl wrote:
>> > "toypup" > wrote in message
>> > . com...
>> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well as
>the
>> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
>> >>> Hope something works out.
>> >>> Amanda
>> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
>offering
>> > a
>> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her
>child
>> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
>> >
>> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
>>
>> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
>> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
>> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
>> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
>> would take more effort than the parent is interested
>> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
>> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
>> worth suggesting.
>>
>> Best wishes,
>
>Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of fire.
>You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything else.

Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.

One is not to *block* hallways, but people daily, frequently, and perfectly
legally - wait in hallways for people busy in offices, stop to talk with a
friend of colleague, paint the walls, pick up papers, sit for discipline, etc.
etc.

I *do* think, in the case of a fire, she won't be blocking egress, saying "but
I'm to play with my baby here".

Banty

--

Banty

May 27th 06, 02:25 PM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
>> > Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
>> > It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having
>in
>> > using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
>> > solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
>>
>> It is not the responsibility of the teacher
>> to be all things to all people. If she wants to run
>> a parent participation class for 4-6 year olds, then
>> it is her prerogative to do so. Presumably, people
>> choose that class because that's what they want. Perhaps
>> they have been to other sorts of classes and have not
>> liked them and have deliberately chosen this model.
>> Sure, if a bunch of people don't like it and vote with
>> their feet, then the teacher will either decide she
>> wants to teach a different sort of class or go begging
>> for clients. However, it could just as easily be
>> the case that there are plenty of people who *DO* want
>> this model. Are you saying that just because we know
>> of one parent for whom this model isn't a great fit,
>> it necessarily follows that all the other parents in
>> the class would like it better if it were a family
>> class? It may well be that this teacher already *is*
>> serving the needs and interests of the majority of
>> the parents. It's not even the case that all of us
>> who *have* toddlers necessarily prefer multi-aged
>> classes where the toddler is also welcome.
>> Just because you're paying for something doesn't
>> mean that you can do whatever you please, even if it
>> disturbs other paying clients and the teacher. (And
>> I certainly don't think that Chookie would expect
>> that, either!)
>>
>
>Well we'll have to agree to disagree it seems.

In which case, you'd be one of the ones "voting with (your) feet", finding some
program where toddlers and babies are jiggled in time, or whatever they manage
to do, while the rest of the parents who want pre-school music classes tailored
to preschool age, continue with the program described.

Banty

--

Donna Metler

May 27th 06, 04:38 PM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
says...
> >
> >
> >"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> > Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> >> > It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are
having
> >in
> >> > using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to
help
> >> > solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
> >>
> >> It is not the responsibility of the teacher
> >> to be all things to all people. If she wants to run
> >> a parent participation class for 4-6 year olds, then
> >> it is her prerogative to do so. Presumably, people
> >> choose that class because that's what they want. Perhaps
> >> they have been to other sorts of classes and have not
> >> liked them and have deliberately chosen this model.
> >> Sure, if a bunch of people don't like it and vote with
> >> their feet, then the teacher will either decide she
> >> wants to teach a different sort of class or go begging
> >> for clients. However, it could just as easily be
> >> the case that there are plenty of people who *DO* want
> >> this model. Are you saying that just because we know
> >> of one parent for whom this model isn't a great fit,
> >> it necessarily follows that all the other parents in
> >> the class would like it better if it were a family
> >> class? It may well be that this teacher already *is*
> >> serving the needs and interests of the majority of
> >> the parents. It's not even the case that all of us
> >> who *have* toddlers necessarily prefer multi-aged
> >> classes where the toddler is also welcome.
> >> Just because you're paying for something doesn't
> >> mean that you can do whatever you please, even if it
> >> disturbs other paying clients and the teacher. (And
> >> I certainly don't think that Chookie would expect
> >> that, either!)
> >>
> >
> >Well we'll have to agree to disagree it seems.
>
> In which case, you'd be one of the ones "voting with (your) feet", finding
some
> program where toddlers and babies are jiggled in time, or whatever they
manage
> to do, while the rest of the parents who want pre-school music classes
tailored
> to preschool age, continue with the program described.
>
And, as I've stated, such programs do exist, both for infants and toddlers
with parents, and for family groups consisting of one or more parents and
two or more children of different ages. However, a parent-participation
class, particularly as described here, requires that the parent's attention
be on the child taking the class-not on a toddler. Just asking the parent to
take the toddler out of the room implies that the teacher is concerned
enough about the impact the toddler is having and/or the toddlers safety
that she's willing to change the nature of the class for this student, since
that means the parent will not be able to assist. And, if you've got
keyboards on stands, with cords dangling, it is absolutely NOT safe for a
toddler to be toddling through the room, period. Keyboard stands aren't
designed to be pulled up on, for example, and you can easily knock one over
or pull a keyboard stand with keyboard over by pulling on the cords. They're
stable, but not that stable. Even in my non-keyboard based preschool and
early elementary classes, many of the instruments we use are not safe for a
baby/young toddler-there are special instruments designed for that age
group. It is MUCH easier to accommodate an older sibling in a baby/toddler
class, when they're usually capable of playing by themselves on the side, or
of actively participating with a doll or stuffed animal as their baby if
that's appropriate, than in the opposite direction.

I really think the only appropriate options are to

a) bring someone to watch the baby outside the room
b) leave the baby home with another caregiver for the class time
or
c) find a music class which is age-appropriate for both children, or which
has parallel activities (for example, a non-parent participation school-aged
class going at the same time as a parent/child toddler class. My program
will often schedule such classes together intentionally, the parent/child
class ending at the time parents are expected to return for "Sharing time"
in the school-aged class).

Because, chances are good that the teacher will be faced with one of two
choices-asking the parent with toddler to leave, and likely losing that
family, or losing other customers because of the presence of the toddler.
The fact that she's asked that the toddler be removed during class indicates
to me that the second may already have been threatened by one or more
parents.

FlowerGirl

May 28th 06, 03:42 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
says...
> >
> >
> >"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> . ..
> >> FlowerGirl wrote:
> >> > "toypup" > wrote in message
> >> > . com...
> >> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
> >> >> ...
> >> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well
as
> >the
> >> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
> >> >>> Hope something works out.
> >> >>> Amanda
> >> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
> >offering
> >> > a
> >> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her
> >child
> >> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
> >> >
> >> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
> >>
> >> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
> >> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
> >> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
> >> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
> >> would take more effort than the parent is interested
> >> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
> >> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
> >> worth suggesting.
> >>
> >> Best wishes,
> >
> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of
fire.
> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything
else.
>
> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
>
> One is not to *block* hallways, but people daily, frequently, and
perfectly
> legally - wait in hallways for people busy in offices, stop to talk with
a
> friend of colleague, paint the walls, pick up papers, sit for discipline,
etc.
> etc.
>
> I *do* think, in the case of a fire, she won't be blocking egress, saying
"but
> I'm to play with my baby here".

Well its seems you're not here in Oz where you do get moved on if you're
loitering in a hallway (but only in places where there are security guards).
....and you've also apparently never had to vacate a building quickly when
there is a fire.

Its not legal to *wait* in one.... and while people do do it, they aren't
meant to.
Now go an have your cuppa and bex and have a good lie down.
A

FlowerGirl

May 28th 06, 04:04 AM

FlowerGirl

May 28th 06, 04:15 AM

"Donna Metler" > wrote in message
. ..

> c) find a music class which is age-appropriate for both children, or which
> has parallel activities (for example, a non-parent participation
school-aged
> class going at the same time as a parent/child toddler class. My program
> will often schedule such classes together intentionally, the parent/child
> class ending at the time parents are expected to return for "Sharing time"
> in the school-aged class).

Which is a sensible idea
.... and also one that my BIL's wife (a music / singing teacher) employs for
her younger children's classes. She has one of her advanced students take
the Mum's and toddlers in the next room for group singing / percussion /
dancing, while she has the older (ie 5& 6 yos) at the piano at the start of
the lesson. They all come together at the end of the lesson.
This is what I mean by the business finding solutions to the problem. ...
and the solution works both ways, T (BIL's wife) has so many clients that
she had to cap numbers some years ago. The waiting list is still very long.
Amanda

Ericka Kammerer

May 28th 06, 04:36 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Banty" > wrote in message

>> In which case, you'd be one of the ones "voting with (your) feet", finding
> some
>> program where toddlers and babies are jiggled in time, or whatever they
> manage
>> to do, while the rest of the parents who want pre-school music classes
> tailored
>> to preschool age, continue with the program described.
>
> Hmm leaving a thriving class of a whole *3* pupils. Gee now it does sound
> like a popular option ... where can I book in??

How many can be accommodated? Do we know
that there are spaces begging? I don't know what the
market is there. Here, there are lots of classes
for parents and preschoolers where toddlers aren't
accommodated and they are quite popular. People have
lots of different solutions for what to do with
their toddlers during the class, but they manage.
Lots of people I know choose these classes deliberately
to make them a special activity shared by the parent
and preschooler without the pesky interloper who's
recently arrived. I just don't get your seeming
assumption that everyone would be happier with a
mixed age class, much less your assertion that the
teacher is required to find a way to accommodate the parent
for whom it's not as good a fit. Would you be equally
sure the teacher should accommodate if it were the other
way around and a parent in a mixed age class was not
pleased with the dynamics resulting from having toddlers
as well as preschoolers in the class? Or would you say
that parent knew what she was getting into when she
signed up for the class, and if she didn't like the mixed
age class she should have found a different class to
begin with?

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty

May 28th 06, 04:48 AM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, FlowerGirl
>says...
>> >
>> >
>> >"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>> >> FlowerGirl wrote:
>> >> > "toypup" > wrote in message
>> >> > . com...
>> >> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in message
>> >> >> ...
>> >> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as well
>as
>> >the
>> >> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
>> >> >>> Hope something works out.
>> >> >>> Amanda
>> >> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
>> >offering
>> >> > a
>> >> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take her
>> >child
>> >> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
>> >> >
>> >> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
>> >>
>> >> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
>> >> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
>> >> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
>> >> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
>> >> would take more effort than the parent is interested
>> >> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
>> >> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
>> >> worth suggesting.
>> >>
>> >> Best wishes,
>> >
>> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of
>fire.
>> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything
>else.
>>
>> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
>>
>> One is not to *block* hallways, but people daily, frequently, and
>perfectly
>> legally - wait in hallways for people busy in offices, stop to talk with
>a
>> friend of colleague, paint the walls, pick up papers, sit for discipline,
>etc.
>> etc.
>>
>> I *do* think, in the case of a fire, she won't be blocking egress, saying
>"but
>> I'm to play with my baby here".
>
>Well its seems you're not here in Oz where you do get moved on if you're
>loitering in a hallway (but only in places where there are security guards).
>...and you've also apparently never had to vacate a building quickly when
>there is a fire.
>
>Its not legal to *wait* in one.... and while people do do it, they aren't
>meant to.
>Now go an have your cuppa and bex and have a good lie down.
>A

Oh don't be so snitty.

I do think fires are the same in both hemispheres.

Banthy

--

Barbara

May 28th 06, 10:53 PM

FlowerGirl wrote:
>
> Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having in
> using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
> solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
> My 2c

What a wonderful idea! My son is in private school. We have a
babysitter problem one day this week. I think I'll just tell him to
remain at school. I'm sure that someone there would be more than
willing to watch him until I can come home. After all, they might lose
my son as a student otherwise!

I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.

Sometimes, you just have to solve your own problems. And sometimes,
businesses weigh the risk of losing one customer like the OP vs. the
risk of losing others in the class or losing a valuable employee if her
younger child is allowed to remain vs. the risk of losing a huge number
of people if costs were raised to a level required to provide the
service that you're suggesting (a safe, fully dedicated and staffed
nursery for siblings).

Barbara

[email protected]

May 28th 06, 11:27 PM

On 28 May 2006 14:53:51 -0700, "Barbara" >
wrote:

>FlowerGirl wrote:
>>
>> Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
>> It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having in
>> using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
>> solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
>> My 2c
>
>What a wonderful idea! My son is in private school. We have a
>babysitter problem one day this week. I think I'll just tell him to
>remain at school. I'm sure that someone there would be more than
>willing to watch him until I can come home. After all, they might lose
>my son as a student otherwise!
>
>I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
>mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
>him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.

In what way do your two "analogies" bear any relevant resemblance to
what was being suggested by FlowerGirl?

No-one, least of all FlowerGirl, seems to have suggested that Chookie
should be entitled to leave her toddler with the music teacher while
she goes off and does something else.

Sarcastic analogies are all well and good... so long as they're
actually analogous.

Banty

May 28th 06, 11:48 PM

In article >,
says...
>
>On 28 May 2006 14:53:51 -0700, "Barbara" >
>wrote:
>
>>FlowerGirl wrote:
>>>
>>> Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
>>> It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having in
>>> using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
>>> solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
>>> My 2c
>>
>>What a wonderful idea! My son is in private school. We have a
>>babysitter problem one day this week. I think I'll just tell him to
>>remain at school. I'm sure that someone there would be more than
>>willing to watch him until I can come home. After all, they might lose
>>my son as a student otherwise!
>>
>>I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
>>mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
>>him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.
>
>In what way do your two "analogies" bear any relevant resemblance to
>what was being suggested by FlowerGirl?
>
>No-one, least of all FlowerGirl, seems to have suggested that Chookie
>should be entitled to leave her toddler with the music teacher while
>she goes off and does something else.
>
>Sarcastic analogies are all well and good... so long as they're
>actually analogous.
>

It depends on the parallel being drawn.

It isn't exactly between expecting a business owner to babysit a child vs. the
music teacher to babysit a child.

Note - FlowerGirl's statement was "It is a service offered and there is a
problem that clients are having in using the service. Its a business and it is
up to the business to help solve a client's problem.... or they lose the
client."

The parallel is between expecting that a client's problem (having a toddler in
tow + wanting to take advantage appropriately of the services) would be solved
by the shop owner actually taking on the child to shop (the purpose is to shop
AND having a tag along toddler), vs. having it solved by the music teacher
tolerating the toddler disruptions (where the purpose is to have the older child
get a music lesson AND having a tag along toddler).

I think it's perfectly analogous. It dosnt' have to be the *same* to be
analogous.

Banty

--

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 12:05 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
says...
> >
> >
> >"Banty" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >, FlowerGirl
> >says...
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> >> . ..
> >> >> FlowerGirl wrote:
> >> >> > "toypup" > wrote in message
> >> >> > . com...
> >> >> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in
message
> >> >> >> ...
> >> >> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as
well
> >as
> >> >the
> >> >> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
> >> >> >>> Hope something works out.
> >> >> >>> Amanda
> >> >> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
> >> >offering
> >> >> > a
> >> >> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take
her
> >> >child
> >> >> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
> >> >>
> >> >> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
> >> >> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
> >> >> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
> >> >> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
> >> >> would take more effort than the parent is interested
> >> >> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
> >> >> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
> >> >> worth suggesting.
> >> >>
> >> >> Best wishes,
> >> >
> >> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of
> >fire.
> >> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything
> >else.
> >>
> >> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
> >>
> >> One is not to *block* hallways, but people daily, frequently, and
> >perfectly
> >> legally - wait in hallways for people busy in offices, stop to talk
with
> >a
> >> friend of colleague, paint the walls, pick up papers, sit for
discipline,
> >etc.
> >> etc.
> >>
> >> I *do* think, in the case of a fire, she won't be blocking egress,
saying
> >"but
> >> I'm to play with my baby here".
> >
> >Well its seems you're not here in Oz where you do get moved on if you're
> >loitering in a hallway (but only in places where there are security
guards).
> >...and you've also apparently never had to vacate a building quickly when
> >there is a fire.
> >
> >Its not legal to *wait* in one.... and while people do do it, they aren't
> >meant to.
> >Now go an have your cuppa and bex and have a good lie down.
> >A
>
> Oh don't be so snitty.
>
> I do think fires are the same in both hemispheres.
>
Probably are. Health and Safety laws and regulations might differ though it
seems.
Now do go and have that lie down won't you.
:)
A

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 12:10 AM

"Barbara" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> FlowerGirl wrote:
> >
> > Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> > It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having
in
> > using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
> > solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
> > My 2c
>
> What a wonderful idea! My son is in private school. We have a
> babysitter problem one day this week. I think I'll just tell him to
> remain at school. I'm sure that someone there would be more than
> willing to watch him until I can come home. After all, they might lose
> my son as a student otherwise!

No but perhaps the P&C might talk to the school to see if there is an option
to get after school care. Many schools here do it, ot they offer
extracurricular activities that do go after school.

>
> I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
> mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
> him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.

No but lots of shopping centres have a child minding facility that they've
organised to help meet the needs of their clients. It usually costs between
$2-$5 for an hour which is generally all mots Mum's need.
>
> Sometimes, you just have to solve your own problems. And sometimes,
> businesses weigh the risk of losing one customer like the OP vs. the
> risk of losing others in the class or losing a valuable employee if her
> younger child is allowed to remain vs. the risk of losing a huge number
> of people if costs were raised to a level required to provide the
> service that you're suggesting (a safe, fully dedicated and staffed
> nursery for siblings).
>

No but as I said in another post, the music school could think about holding
a multi-age class suitable for all ages if there is an opportunity to do so.
Or they could hold the different age classes at the same time using
different rooms or sectiosn with the larger room.
There are two parties here and it doesn't serve any business not to meet the
needs of the client. Its amazinf what solutions can be found when both
parties see what can be done.

Amanda

Banty

May 29th 06, 12:21 AM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, FlowerGirl
>says...
>> >
>> >
>> >"Banty" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >> In article >, FlowerGirl
>> >says...
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
>> >> . ..
>> >> >> FlowerGirl wrote:
>> >> >> > "toypup" > wrote in message
>> >> >> > . com...
>> >> >> >> "FlowerGirl" > wrote in
>message
>> >> >> >> ...
>> >> >> >>> At any rate, I'd throw the fire hazard thing back at them as
>well
>> >as
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >>> issue of the stairwells and ask them for another solution.
>> >> >> >>> Hope something works out.
>> >> >> >>> Amanda
>> >> >> >> I don't think it's the teacher's problem to solve. She was just
>> >> >offering
>> >> >> > a
>> >> >> >> suggestion. OP needs to find something that suits her or take
>her
>> >> >child
>> >> >> >> out. There were many possible solutions offered in this thread.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> > and the suggestion was unsafe.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> ? Why? Nearly any situation can be pretty
>> >> >> darned safe with one able-bodied adult to one toddler,
>> >> >> as long as the adult is focused on the toddler. It
>> >> >> wouldn't be particularly relaxing, and perhaps it
>> >> >> would take more effort than the parent is interested
>> >> >> in expending (and thus another option would be preferable),
>> >> >> but I don't see than it's inherently too unsafe to be
>> >> >> worth suggesting.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> Best wishes,
>> >> >
>> >> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of
>> >fire.
>> >> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything
>> >else.
>> >>
>> >> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
>> >>
>> >> One is not to *block* hallways, but people daily, frequently, and
>> >perfectly
>> >> legally - wait in hallways for people busy in offices, stop to talk
>with
>> >a
>> >> friend of colleague, paint the walls, pick up papers, sit for
>discipline,
>> >etc.
>> >> etc.
>> >>
>> >> I *do* think, in the case of a fire, she won't be blocking egress,
>saying
>> >"but
>> >> I'm to play with my baby here".
>> >
>> >Well its seems you're not here in Oz where you do get moved on if you're
>> >loitering in a hallway (but only in places where there are security
>guards).
>> >...and you've also apparently never had to vacate a building quickly when
>> >there is a fire.
>> >
>> >Its not legal to *wait* in one.... and while people do do it, they aren't
>> >meant to.
>> >Now go an have your cuppa and bex and have a good lie down.
>> >A
>>
>> Oh don't be so snitty.
>>
>> I do think fires are the same in both hemispheres.
>>
>Probably are. Health and Safety laws and regulations might differ though it
>seems.
>Now do go and have that lie down won't you.
>:)

I'm extremely surprised, I must say, that one, when arriving early for an
appointment, must, instead of waiting in the hall, needs to walk through the
hall, down the stairs or lift, up an opposite stairs or lift, then back down the
hallway, to see if the apointment is open.

Whether clockwise or counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere.

At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based on her guess
as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.

And I'm quite well rested, thank you - you *do* know there's quite a time shift
on this side of the Pond, don't you.

Banty

--

Banty

May 29th 06, 12:22 AM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>
>No but as I said in another post, the music school could think about holding
>a multi-age class suitable for all ages if there is an opportunity to do so.
>Or they could hold the different age classes at the same time using
>different rooms or sectiosn with the larger room.
>There are two parties here and it doesn't serve any business not to meet the
>needs of the client. Its amazinf what solutions can be found when both
>parties see what can be done.

and lots of money and employees.

Banty

--

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 12:27 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> > Hmm leaving a thriving class of a whole *3* pupils. Gee now it does
sound
> > like a popular option ... where can I book in??
>
> How many can be accommodated? Do we know
> that there are spaces begging? I don't know what the
> market is there. Here, there are lots of classes
> for parents and preschoolers where toddlers aren't
> accommodated and they are quite popular. People have
> lots of different solutions for what to do with
> their toddlers during the class, but they manage.
> Lots of people I know choose these classes deliberately
> to make them a special activity shared by the parent
> and preschooler without the pesky interloper who's
> recently arrived. I just don't get your seeming
> assumption that everyone would be happier with a
> mixed age class, much less your assertion that the
> teacher is required to find a way to accommodate the parent
> for whom it's not as good a fit. Would you be equally
> sure the teacher should accommodate if it were the other
> way around and a parent in a mixed age class was not
> pleased with the dynamics resulting from having toddlers
> as well as preschoolers in the class? Or would you say
> that parent knew what she was getting into when she
> signed up for the class, and if she didn't like the mixed
> age class she should have found a different class to
> begin with?
>

Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above) to
which you have seriously replied.
But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me that
maybe nobody has actually checked.
It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with 4
students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice. ...most of us do tend to
vote with our feet rather than make a fuss over something, so it may be that
the class has so few in number because it doesn't work for more people. But
I don't know the specifics ... some music lessons cost a lot more and there
are smaller class sizes ... or even 1-on-1 lessons... and that's just fine
.... but nobody will know if that's the case if its not discussed.
So by asking the teacher / music school for other alternatives, it might
instigate a discussion which could provide solutions for both Chookie and
also for the music school.
Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 12:36 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,

> It depends on the parallel being drawn.
>
> It isn't exactly between expecting a business owner to babysit a child vs.
the
> music teacher to babysit a child.
>
> Note - FlowerGirl's statement was "It is a service offered and there is a
> problem that clients are having in using the service. Its a business and
it is
> up to the business to help solve a client's problem.... or they lose the
> client."

...and you might just want to re-read my statement now that you've typed it
out again.
*help solve a clients problem* doesn't mean "solve it without the client
having to do anything".
I don't know why a discussion about a business needing to use good business
practice to help meet the needs of a client seems so unreasonable to you.
>
> The parallel is between expecting that a client's problem (having a
toddler in
> tow + wanting to take advantage appropriately of the services) would be
solved
> by the shop owner actually taking on the child to shop (the purpose is to
shop
> AND having a tag along toddler), vs. having it solved by the music teacher
> tolerating the toddler disruptions (where the purpose is to have the older
child
> get a music lesson AND having a tag along toddler).

>
> I think it's perfectly analogous. It dosnt' have to be the *same* to be
> analogous.

But it does have to be somewhere on the same cricket pitch.
Amanda

Ericka Kammerer

May 29th 06, 02:46 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:

> Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above) to
> which you have seriously replied.
> But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me that
> maybe nobody has actually checked.
> It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with 4
> students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice.

Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could
be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.
The other thing that makes me think that the class isn't
terribly under-subscribed is that it seems like a teacher
desperate for students would be less likely to make waves
with one of the parents.

> So by asking the teacher / music school for other alternatives, it might
> instigate a discussion which could provide solutions for both Chookie and
> also for the music school.

I have no objection to a discussion of what other
classes and formats are currently available or might be
available in the future. I only have an objection to the
notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*
time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.
It's perfectly legitimate to discuss other options that
might or might not be offered in the future. Although,
frankly, I doubt that the teacher is confused about the
notion that a multi-aged class might be useful for
Chookie at this point. Presumably, if she was able to
offer one, she'd have mentioned it by this point.

Best wishes,
Ericka

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 04:48 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
says...
> >
> >
> >
> >No but as I said in another post, the music school could think about
holding
> >a multi-age class suitable for all ages if there is an opportunity to do
so.
> >Or they could hold the different age classes at the same time using
> >different rooms or sectiosn with the larger room.
> >There are two parties here and it doesn't serve any business not to meet
the
> >needs of the client. Its amazinf what solutions can be found when both
> >parties see what can be done.
>
> and lots of money and employees.

Not at all.
In fact I wonder what the fees are in the smaller class so that they can
meet salary and overheads. ... I got the impression that the "new teacher"
was an employee rather than the business owner, so presumably there is more
than one teacher.

Cheryl

May 29th 06, 04:48 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Barbara" > wrote in message
> ups.com...

> > I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
> > mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
> > him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.
>
> No but lots of shopping centres have a child minding facility that they've
> organised to help meet the needs of their clients. It usually costs between
> $2-$5 for an hour which is generally all mots Mum's need.

Not to mention that a couple of chains of stores that cater for women
in the age groups likely to have young children (for Aussies, I'm
talking about _Wombat_ here) have set up their fitting room areas with
a small gated section complete with toys so you can put your child in
there while you are trying on clothes. That's a practical solution
that some businesses could use to help them generate more sales. My
hairdressers, my doctors' surgeries and my chiropractor all have
similar setups so that they can encourage women to use their services
regularly, not just when they can find alternate arrangements for their
children.

Cheryl

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 04:57 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> I'm extremely surprised, I must say, that one, when arriving early for an
> appointment, must, instead of waiting in the hall, needs to walk through
the
> hall, down the stairs or lift, up an opposite stairs or lift, then back
down the
> hallway, to see if the apointment is open.

A hallway is not a waiting area ... no matter how much you try and insist it
is.

>
> Whether clockwise or counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere.

....sorry ... is this supposed to be funny?
>
> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based on her
guess
> as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.

Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to say about
it.
>
> And I'm quite well rested, thank you - you *do* know there's quite a time
shift
> on this side of the Pond, don't you.

Gee really? Thank you so much for telling me.
I still think you need a bex and a lie down. Perhaps then you'll be able to
hold a conversation without resorting to insults about my nationality.
Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 05:20 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> FlowerGirl wrote:
>
> > Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above)
to
> > which you have seriously replied.
> > But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me
that
> > maybe nobody has actually checked.
> > It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with
4
> > students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice.
>
> Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
> 4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
> of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
> there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
> already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
> and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could
> be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
> that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.

.....but in the same breath you seem to be saying that it is "plenty
popular".
I guess we don't really know do we?

> The other thing that makes me think that the class isn't
> terribly under-subscribed is that it seems like a teacher
> desperate for students would be less likely to make waves
> with one of the parents.

Which could be true .... but as you say ... how do we know?
Based on what I know of music schools in our area, smaller classes seem to
be for school-aged children, but larger for pre-school-aged children.

>
> > So by asking the teacher / music school for other alternatives, it might
> > instigate a discussion which could provide solutions for both Chookie
and
> > also for the music school.
>
> I have no objection to a discussion of what other
> classes and formats are currently available or might be
> available in the future. I only have an objection to the
> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
> namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*
> time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.

I don't remember advocating that the class accomodate Chookie's younger son.
I do remember suggesting that discussion of possible solutions between the
business and client be instigated as the solution offered was not well
thought out.

> It's perfectly legitimate to discuss other options that
> might or might not be offered in the future. Although,
> frankly, I doubt that the teacher is confused about the
> notion that a multi-aged class might be useful for
> Chookie at this point. Presumably, if she was able to
> offer one, she'd have mentioned it by this point.

Well since all of this argument is based on presumptions, you may be right -
perhaps there isn't the capacity for a multi-aged class ... but perhaps
there is and some discussion of the problem could actually find a solution.

Amanda

Banty

May 29th 06, 05:23 AM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> I'm extremely surprised, I must say, that one, when arriving early for an
>> appointment, must, instead of waiting in the hall, needs to walk through
>the
>> hall, down the stairs or lift, up an opposite stairs or lift, then back
>down the
>> hallway, to see if the apointment is open.
>
>A hallway is not a waiting area ... no matter how much you try and insist it
>is.
>
>>
>> Whether clockwise or counterclockwise in the southern hemisphere.
>
>...sorry ... is this supposed to be funny?

Sure.

>>
>> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based on her
>guess
>> as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.
>
>Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to say about
>it.

But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know that than
the teacher.

>>
>> And I'm quite well rested, thank you - you *do* know there's quite a time
>shift
>> on this side of the Pond, don't you.
>
>Gee really? Thank you so much for telling me.
>I still think you need a bex and a lie down. Perhaps then you'll be able to
>hold a conversation without resorting to insults about my nationality.

Oh dear. Did someone actually truly reciprocate Amanda's snarky comments about
needing tea and rest?? Dear dear dear, that's not supposed to happen...

Banty

--

FlowerGirl

May 29th 06, 05:55 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> Oh dear. Did someone actually truly reciprocate Amanda's snarky comments
about
> needing tea and rest?? Dear dear dear, that's not supposed to happen...

Made in reply to your "Oh Puhleese" actually. I was offering you a solution
to your bad mood.

Chookie

May 29th 06, 02:11 PM

In article >,
"FlowerGirl" > wrote:

> > >There are two parties here and it doesn't serve any business not to meet
> > >the needs of the client. Its amazing what solutions can be found when
> > >both parties see what can be done.
> >
> > and lots of money and employees.
>
> Not at all.
> In fact I wonder what the fees are in the smaller class so that they can
> meet salary and overheads. ... I got the impression that the "new teacher"
> was an employee rather than the business owner, so presumably there is more
> than one teacher.

Correct. The operation is actually a franchise, with quite a few teachers
employed. There are two classes for DS1's age group running at the same time,
and another that seems to start half an hour later. Not sure what the maximum
class size is for this age group. The preschooler age classes tend to be held
earlier in the day IME, probably because the kids are fresher then.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 29th 06, 02:19 PM

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
> 4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
> of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
> there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
> already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
> and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time.

The room isn't cramped; the school is.

> I only have an objection to the
> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
> namely, a distracting toddler.

And this is where it's tricky. In a previous class we took, there was an
active toddler, the younger brother of the participant. I had no qualms about
bringing DS2 along because of this precedent. In fact, I was surprised by the
teacher saying he was distracting, as I had done my best to ensure that he
wasn't (just as the other mother did).

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

May 29th 06, 02:22 PM

In article >, Banty >
wrote:

> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of fire.
> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything else.
>
> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.

Why, Banty! Didn't know you were an expert on NSW law!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Banty

May 29th 06, 02:30 PM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
>> FlowerGirl wrote:
>>
>> > Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above)
>to
>> > which you have seriously replied.
>> > But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me
>that
>> > maybe nobody has actually checked.
>> > It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with
>4
>> > students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice.
>>
>> Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
>> 4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
>> of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
>> there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
>> already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
>> and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could
>> be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
>> that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.
>
>....but in the same breath you seem to be saying that it is "plenty
>popular".
>I guess we don't really know do we?

But why on earth, especially for a music class, would a *large* class be a
measure of popularity? (let alone quality!)

Is it that music class where you are are run by rather large corporations or
government entities? As a parent of a preschooler in music, I wouldn't be
looking for the largest setting with the most students, surely.

>
>> The other thing that makes me think that the class isn't
>> terribly under-subscribed is that it seems like a teacher
>> desperate for students would be less likely to make waves
>> with one of the parents.
>
>Which could be true .... but as you say ... how do we know?
>Based on what I know of music schools in our area, smaller classes seem to
>be for school-aged children, but larger for pre-school-aged children.
>

OK, but that's not what this class apparently is.

>>
>> > So by asking the teacher / music school for other alternatives, it might
>> > instigate a discussion which could provide solutions for both Chookie
>and
>> > also for the music school.
>>
>> I have no objection to a discussion of what other
>> classes and formats are currently available or might be
>> available in the future. I only have an objection to the
>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>> namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*
>> time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.
>
>I don't remember advocating that the class accomodate Chookie's younger son.
>I do remember suggesting that discussion of possible solutions between the
>business and client be instigated as the solution offered was not well
>thought out.
>
>> It's perfectly legitimate to discuss other options that
>> might or might not be offered in the future. Although,
>> frankly, I doubt that the teacher is confused about the
>> notion that a multi-aged class might be useful for
>> Chookie at this point. Presumably, if she was able to
>> offer one, she'd have mentioned it by this point.
>
>Well since all of this argument is based on presumptions, you may be right -
>perhaps there isn't the capacity for a multi-aged class ... but perhaps
>there is and some discussion of the problem could actually find a solution.

The thing that gets me about this, Amanda, is that it appears to me to be a
question that is a distraction, a red herring, from what Chookie's situation is
by her own description. You seem to want to wave this away with a "if the
discussion happens solutions just materialize" attitude. *Even if* a mixed
class could be set up, the other patrons of the current class likely woudln't be
interested, as they had already clearly committed to a preschool class of small
size and setting, and managed to do so without having a noisy distraction in
tow. Have you paid any attention to Donna Metler's posts? There are many
people interested in more serious music study for their kids, and they're not
looking for a family outing. Can you look at and respond to her posts? You're
probably posting from the Austrailian parents' NG, so I'll tell you she *is* a
music teacher.

Each solution you've suggested means more facilities, more classes (I *don't*
think that all parents, even all parents of youngers, want to move over instead
to toddler-jiggling cutesy music sessions for their preschoolers). Possibly
your government is very very generous with aid to such children's programs. But
frankly, it takes something like this to make your stance a practicable one -
for all the "business practice" and "client" and "problem solving" lingo you
throw around, what's missing is the bottom line. (Speaking of business
reality!)

Finally, is it really such a foriegn concept to you that a reasonable solution
to these problems of having a younger child, is for the parent of the younger
child, themselves, to take responsibility for their problem and solve it?
Beleive me, people do that all the time, and without rancor and excuses.

Banty

--

Banty

May 29th 06, 02:33 PM

In article >, Chookie
says...
>
>In article >, Banty >
>wrote:
>
>> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of fire.
>> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything else.
>>
>> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
>
>Why, Banty! Didn't know you were an expert on NSW law!
>

Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an employee
regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance or law
that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than actively
walking in staight lines down their courses.

Banty (I'm waiting)

--

Ericka Kammerer

May 29th 06, 03:04 PM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> ...
>> FlowerGirl wrote:
>>
>>> Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer (above)
> to
>>> which you have seriously replied.
>>> But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me
> that
>>> maybe nobody has actually checked.
>>> It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class with
> 4
>>> students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice.
>> Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
>> 4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
>> of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
>> there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
>> already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
>> and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could
>> be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
>> that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.
>
> ....but in the same breath you seem to be saying that it is "plenty
> popular".

I said such classes were plenty popular in *MY* area.

> I guess we don't really know do we?

Hence my questioning of your assumptions.

>> I have no objection to a discussion of what other
>> classes and formats are currently available or might be
>> available in the future. I only have an objection to the
>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>> namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*
>> time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.
>
> I don't remember advocating that the class accomodate Chookie's younger son.

Well, you did say, "Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad
precious," which seems to be saying that you think the
teacher is unreasonable for attempting to maintain the original
intent of the class. Sorry if you meant something else by that
comment.

> I do remember suggesting that discussion of possible solutions between the
> business and client be instigated as the solution offered was not well
> thought out.

Again, I don't get why you think the teacher needs to
solve this problem. It would be one thing if there were concerns
that were reasonable given the sort of class. If, for example,
the OP's son was struggling with some portion of the class, or
was being disruptive, then it would be perfectly reasonable to
discuss with the teacher ways of making the class better for
*the student for whom it was intended.* But I can't see asking
the teacher to make the class better for someone the class
wasn't intended for, or asking her or the other students/parents
to put up with a disruption from someone who's not a legitimate
participant in the class. Sure, ask the teacher if there might
be another class that would accommodate a toddler as well or
something like that, but nothing that would put the burden on
the teacher to solve a problem that's none of her responsibility.
It's rather arrogant, in my opinion, to think that one's personal
problems are to be solved by others.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Banty

May 29th 06, 03:09 PM

In article >, Chookie
says...
>
>In article >, Banty >
>wrote:
>
>> >> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based on her
>> >> guess as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.
>> >
>> >Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to say about
>> >it.
>>
>> But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know that
>> than the teacher.
>
>Why? The teacher looks all of 21, and I know how aware of such issues I was
>at that age. Nor do I want her to get into trouble with the boss if she has
>offered me an off-the-top-of-her-head solution (and I believe she has). As I
>said, I will ask the teacher to check that it's OK with the boss before I
>leave DS1 in the room.
>

With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised you're
trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack of
regard?)

So how about just finding another solution? Your compatriot Amanda is telling
us that businesses faced with parents wanting youngers in tow have all found
equitable solutiont, so they must abound.

Banty

--

Ericka Kammerer

May 29th 06, 03:22 PM

Chookie wrote:
> In article >,
> Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

>> I only have an objection to the
>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>> namely, a distracting toddler.
>
> And this is where it's tricky. In a previous class we took, there was an
> active toddler, the younger brother of the participant. I had no qualms about
> bringing DS2 along because of this precedent. In fact, I was surprised by the
> teacher saying he was distracting, as I had done my best to ensure that he
> wasn't (just as the other mother did).

Was this a different teacher? If it was a different
teacher, the previous teacher might have simply been more lax
about enforcing such things. If it was the same teacher, she
may well have received complaints from the other parents in
the previous class about the distraction and realized that
she needs to be more careful about that.
I don't fault you at all for having expectations based
on what you had previously witnessed. I just think that the
fact that a similar disruption happened in the past doesn't
give you much of a leg to stand on in terms of justifying it
now. And I'm sure you have been doing everything possible
to minimize the disruption. Believe me, I'm an expert in
trying to minimize toddler disruptions at older kids'
activities! I know how hard it is. But really, what my
experience has led me to believe is that when the situation
is not conducive (parent participation required, no good
place for the toddler, etc.), it is simply best all around
to divide and conquer. It's so easy to fall into the trap
of trying to multitask-to-the-max and conquer all situations.
It leaves you frazzled and frustrated and never feeling like
you're doing anything as well as you'd like. Sometimes it's
just best to set things up so that you can focus on one child.
Make a virtue out of a vice! Bite the bullet and either get
someone else to look after the toddler so you can really give
100 percent to your preschooler in the class and enjoy it as
a fun activity you do with your big boy, or give someone else
the pleasure of that activity while you spend some special
1-on-1 time with the toddler and make a fun time of that.
When you've got a newborn, you imagine that you
can multitask and do it all because the baby is so portable.
You live as if the baby is almost just an extra appendage.
But they get bigger and more mobile and they demand (and
deserve) their own thing. You can keep trying to ratchet
up your ability to multitask and keep the toddler under
control, and sometimes you've got no choice but to do that.
When you've *got* alternatives, however, cut yourself some
slack and let someone else step in so that you don't *have*
to. You'll be happier and less stressed *and* your kids
will be too. Yes, it's a luxury to be able to do this,
but it's well worth it. Develop your network. You'll need
it in the future.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Barbara

May 29th 06, 05:07 PM

wrote:
> On 28 May 2006 14:53:51 -0700, "Barbara" >
> wrote:
>
> >FlowerGirl wrote:
> >>
> >> Now see that its one of *my* pet peeves.
> >> It is a service offered and there is a problem that clients are having in
> >> using the service. Its a business and it is up to the business to help
> >> solve a client's problem.... or they lose the client.
> >> My 2c
> >
> >What a wonderful idea! My son is in private school. We have a
> >babysitter problem one day this week. I think I'll just tell him to
> >remain at school. I'm sure that someone there would be more than
> >willing to watch him until I can come home. After all, they might lose
> >my son as a student otherwise!
> >
> >I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
> >mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
> >him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.
>
> In what way do your two "analogies" bear any relevant resemblance to
> what was being suggested by FlowerGirl?
>
> No-one, least of all FlowerGirl, seems to have suggested that Chookie
> should be entitled to leave her toddler with the music teacher while
> she goes off and does something else.
>
> Sarcastic analogies are all well and good... so long as they're
> actually analogous.

Flower Girls suggests that its up to businesses to find solutions to
their clients problems that would permit those clients to use their
services. Chookie's problem was that she couldn't watch her toddler
and participate in a class that requires one-on-one parent
participation. FG believes its the classes' obligation to solve that
problem for her. Its precisely the same thing.

Barbara

FlowerGirl

May 30th 06, 12:52 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> FlowerGirl wrote:
> > "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >> FlowerGirl wrote:
> >>
> >>> Well I admit to answering a flippant post with a flipant answer
(above)
> > to
> >>> which you have seriously replied.
> >>> But I don't *assert* that everyone would be happier ... it seems to me
> > that
> >>> maybe nobody has actually checked.
> >>> It just seems to me that when a music school can only fill a class
with
> > 4
> >>> students, it doesn't seem like a popular choice.
> >> Hence my question--can they take significantly more than
> >> 4 kids, or is that what the class is designed for? Here, I know
> >> of classes that can't accommodate more than that, and I believe
> >> there has been some mention of quarters being cramped in the room
> >> already, which makes me wonder if the class is plenty popular
> >> and simply can only accommodate 4 students at a time. Could
> >> be otherwise, but I don't see where the assumption is warranted
> >> that "only" 4 students means it's not popular.
> >
> > ....but in the same breath you seem to be saying that it is "plenty
> > popular".
>
> I said such classes were plenty popular in *MY* area.

So you are showing a different view point - it does not mean that my view is
somehow "incorrect" though.
>
> > I guess we don't really know do we?
>
> Hence my questioning of your assumptions.

Which I thought were plenty clear.
>
> >> I have no objection to a discussion of what other
> >> classes and formats are currently available or might be
> >> available in the future. I only have an objection to the
> >> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
> >> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
> >> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
> >> namely, a distracting toddler. In *this* class at *this*
> >> time, the distraction must be stopped one way or another.
> >
> > I don't remember advocating that the class accomodate Chookie's younger
son.
>
> Well, you did say, "Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad
> precious," which seems to be saying that you think the
> teacher is unreasonable for attempting to maintain the original
> intent of the class. Sorry if you meant something else by that
> comment.
>
Which I followed up with "but rules are rules".... I would have thought that
meant that "no matter what I think, the rules set out by the teacher are the
rules that apply".
I do *think* the teacher is being a little precious ... and I'm basing that
view on our very own 22 yo music teacher who is a little OTT when it comes
to the importance of music in the scheme of life. ... but thats another
story.

> > I do remember suggesting that discussion of possible solutions between
the
> > business and client be instigated as the solution offered was not well
> > thought out.
>
> Again, I don't get why you think the teacher needs to
> solve this problem. It would be one thing if there were concerns
> that were reasonable given the sort of class. If, for example,
> the OP's son was struggling with some portion of the class, or
> was being disruptive, then it would be perfectly reasonable to
> discuss with the teacher ways of making the class better for
> *the student for whom it was intended.* But I can't see asking
> the teacher to make the class better for someone the class
> wasn't intended for, or asking her or the other students/parents
> to put up with a disruption from someone who's not a legitimate
> participant in the class. Sure, ask the teacher if there might
> be another class that would accommodate a toddler as well or
> something like that, but nothing that would put the burden on
> the teacher to solve a problem that's none of her responsibility.
> It's rather arrogant, in my opinion, to think that one's personal
> problems are to be solved by others.

....and I'm not suggesting that anyone's personal problems be solved by
another. I'm suggesting that it is in the business's best interest to help
come up with solutions to a client's problem. She may suggest another
class, she may refer Chookie to the school manager for further discussions.
It may be that there are no solutions available but unless there is some
discussion, how would Chookie ever find out?
I don't understand why the idea of broaching the subject with the teacher
and the music school owner seems to be so problematic to even contemplate.

Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 30th 06, 01:54 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
Chookie
> says...
> >
> >In article >, Banty
>
> >wrote:
> >
> >> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of
fire.
> >> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything
else.
> >>
> >> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
> >
> >Why, Banty! Didn't know you were an expert on NSW law!
> >
>
> Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an employee
> regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance or
law
> that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than actively
> walking in staight lines down their courses.
>
> Banty (I'm waiting)

Its fairly common knowledge ... not to mention common sense.
Feel free to look up Public Liability in Australia if you are so interested.
I'm fairly sure you'll find plenty of information.
Have a nice time.
Amanda

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 02:26 AM

> On 28 May 2006 14:53:51 -0700, "Barbara" >
> wrote:
>>I also often have trouble shopping with my son. With your words in
>>mind, I just *know* that the sales associates would love to look after
>>him while I try on clothes. After all, they'll lose sales otherwise.

There was a health food store I used to love shopping in.
Not only was it quiet and free of too many distracting colourful
labels, but it had a little sort-of playpen in the middle with
some toys in it -- a nice wooden one -- for toddlers to play
in while their parents shop a few feet away.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 02:28 AM

Banty ) writes:
> It dosnt' have to be the *same* to be
> analogous.

I agree completely!

Given any two things, they have some similarities
and some differences, and therefore an analogy can
be drawn between them.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 02:33 AM

"FlowerGirl" ) writes:
> "Banty" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I think it's perfectly analogous. It dosnt' have to be the *same* to be
>> analogous.
>
> But it does have to be somewhere on the same cricket pitch.
> Amanda

No, it doesn't. Two things can be very, very different
and still useful analogies can be drawn between them.

IMO the way to argue against an argument by analogy is
to mention one or more specific differences and then
describe why these particular differences break down the
particular argument being made. It's not enough merely to
mention the differences: you have to explain the implications
of the differences.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 02:36 AM

Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
> I only have an objection to the
> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
> namely, a distracting toddler.

I could be wrong, but I think you're the first one
to mention this notion, which you say you object to.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 02:37 AM

"FlowerGirl" ) writes:
> A hallway is not a waiting area ... no matter how much you try and insist it
> is.

I disagree. People wait in hallways, and I can call them
"waiting areas" if I want.

Ericka Kammerer

May 30th 06, 03:23 AM

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
>> I only have an objection to the
>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>> namely, a distracting toddler.
>
> I could be wrong, but I think you're the first one
> to mention this notion, which you say you object to.

I think asking the teacher to solve the
problem of what to do with a younger sib is expecting
someone either to accommodate the toddler in the
class or find some other accommodation. I think it's
the parents' responsibility to do that. In the pursuit
of solving the problem, I don't have any objection to
asking the teacher if she knows of other classes that
do accommodate younger kids, but I think it crosses
the line if you throw the teacher's request back in
her lap by asking her to change the current class
requirements or create a new class that accommodates
younger sibs. There's a world of difference between
saying, "I'm so sorry Johnny has become a distraction.
It's a challenge for us to find another caretaker at
this time. Would you be able to recommend another
class that can accommodate both children, or a facility
that offers childcare?" and saying, "Well, I don't see
how I can manage Johnny in the hallway and I can't get
a sitter. If you want to keep clients, I think it would
be in your best interests to offer some kind of reasonable
solution for parents like me who have younger kids."
And anyway, requests for different course offerings are
typically best discussed with the director/manager of
the school than the teachers.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer

May 30th 06, 03:35 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> ...

>> Well, you did say, "Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad
>> precious," which seems to be saying that you think the
>> teacher is unreasonable for attempting to maintain the original
>> intent of the class. Sorry if you meant something else by that
>> comment.
>>
> Which I followed up with "but rules are rules".... I would have thought that
> meant that "no matter what I think, the rules set out by the teacher are the
> rules that apply".
> I do *think* the teacher is being a little precious ... and I'm basing that
> view on our very own 22 yo music teacher who is a little OTT when it comes
> to the importance of music in the scheme of life. ... but thats another
> story.

Well, perhaps there's a language issue. I interpret
your statement to mean, "Well, I suppose she has the right to
set her own rules, but they're clearly over the top." IOW,
the teacher is being unreasonable in your estimation, even
if you acknowledge her right to make the rules. If that's
what you mean, I disagree that the teacher is being
unreasonable. If I were one of the other parents who signed
up for the class, I'd be hot if my kid's class, for which
I paid good money, was being disrupted by some other student's
younger sibling. If I'd wanted a class with toddler participation,
presumably I'd have looked for one of those and signed up for
it. So, I think not only is the teacher being reasonable in
making the request, it is her *responsibility* to the other
students to make the request. (And even if she or another
teacher had allowed the disruption in the past, that doesn't
make it okay for her to continue to be derelict in that duty.)
Any discussion of other types of classes that might or might
not be offered in the future is completely separate from the
issue of what needs to be done in this class, at this time,
which is to stop the disruption by whatever means the parent
can arrange and feels is most appropriate.

There are many different types of music classes out
there. They all fill particular niches. If you don't like
the method of one teacher/class, then you find another. Far
from being an indictment of a particular type of class, that's
just an acknowledgment of the fact that different people are
looking for different things. In another thread a while back,
I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
"precious." It just means that we have different preferences
and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
be unhappy.

Best wishes,
Ericka

FlowerGirl

May 30th 06, 06:56 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
...
> FlowerGirl wrote:
> > "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> >> Well, you did say, "Personally I think the music teacher is being a tad
> >> precious," which seems to be saying that you think the
> >> teacher is unreasonable for attempting to maintain the original
> >> intent of the class. Sorry if you meant something else by that
> >> comment.
> >>
> > Which I followed up with "but rules are rules".... I would have thought
that
> > meant that "no matter what I think, the rules set out by the teacher are
the
> > rules that apply".
> > I do *think* the teacher is being a little precious ... and I'm basing
that
> > view on our very own 22 yo music teacher who is a little OTT when it
comes
> > to the importance of music in the scheme of life. ... but thats another
> > story.
>
> Well, perhaps there's a language issue. I interpret
> your statement to mean, "Well, I suppose she has the right to
> set her own rules, but they're clearly over the top."

Perhaps it is a language issue...

IOW,
> the teacher is being unreasonable in your estimation, even
> if you acknowledge her right to make the rules. If that's
> what you mean, I disagree that the teacher is being
> unreasonable. If I were one of the other parents who signed
> up for the class, I'd be hot if my kid's class, for which
> I paid good money, was being disrupted by some other student's
> younger sibling. If I'd wanted a class with toddler participation,
> presumably I'd have looked for one of those and signed up for
> it. So, I think not only is the teacher being reasonable in
> making the request, it is her *responsibility* to the other
> students to make the request. (And even if she or another
> teacher had allowed the disruption in the past, that doesn't
> make it okay for her to continue to be derelict in that duty.)

Clearly we disagree. I do think the teacher is being " a tad precious"
(which doesn't mean OTT to me)... but like I said .. its her class and her
rules are the rules.
From what I understand, Chookie's DS2 is not making a lot of noise, but is
being distracting by "exploring" the accumulation of "junk" in the room.
Personally, I don't think that's too distracting (which means I think the
teacher is being a "tad precious"), but apparently the teacher does and
since its her classroom, she does get to set the rules.

> Any discussion of other types of classes that might or might
> not be offered in the future is completely separate from the
> issue of what needs to be done in this class, at this time,
> which is to stop the disruption by whatever means the parent
> can arrange and feels is most appropriate.

...and the point which I have taken great pains to point out is that further
discussion between parent, teacher and music school may provide solutions
that would be more suitable for all invovled.

>
> There are many different types of music classes out
> there. They all fill particular niches. If you don't like
> the method of one teacher/class, then you find another.

True - depending on where you are. There isn't a heck of a lot of variety
in different class styles where we are, so we have few choices.... but
luckily the music class we go to is quite flexible and meets our needs at
present.
I'm thinking that there may be a few more choices in music schools where you
are than there are here. I don't know how many choices Chookie has in her
area either.

Far
> from being an indictment of a particular type of class, that's
> just an acknowledgment of the fact that different people are
> looking for different things.

....and it might be useful for the music school to get some feedback on what
"different things" are that people are looking for.

In another thread a while back,
> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
> be unhappy.

This is true, providing the choice is there.
Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 30th 06, 07:15 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
Chookie
> says...
> >
> >In article >, Banty >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> >> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based
on her
> >> >> guess as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.
> >> >
> >> >Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to say
about
> >> >it.
> >>
> >> But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know
that
> >> than the teacher.
> >
> >Why? The teacher looks all of 21, and I know how aware of such issues I
was
> >at that age. Nor do I want her to get into trouble with the boss if she
has
> >offered me an off-the-top-of-her-head solution (and I believe she has).
As I
> >said, I will ask the teacher to check that it's OK with the boss before I
> >leave DS1 in the room.
> >
>
> With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised
you're
> trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack of
> regard?)
>
This is an issue that a number of universities are looking at actually ....
the issue thathere is some concern that, while they are producing graduates
who's knowledge of a subject matter is fitting, their knowledge of other
issues (such as Workplace Health and Safety Regulations) pertinent to their
job is often quite lacking. This does not mean that she is not perfectly
capable of teaching music.

> So how about just finding another solution? Your compatriot Amanda is
telling
> us that businesses faced with parents wanting youngers in tow have all
found
> equitable solutiont, so they must abound.

....or perhaps you are deliberately oversimplifying their context in another
attempt at humour??

Amanda

Leanne

May 30th 06, 12:23 PM

> Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an employee
> regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance or
> law
> that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than actively
> walking in staight lines down their courses.
>
> Banty (I'm waiting)

Its not her work place rules, its a public lability law.

Banty

May 30th 06, 12:55 PM

In article >, Leanne says...
>
>
>> Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an employee
>> regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance or
>> law
>> that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than actively
>> walking in staight lines down their courses.
>>
>> Banty (I'm waiting)
>
>Its not her work place rules, its a public lability law.
>
>

Then perhaps you can produce it. Is it really true that, where you are, one
never stops in hallways.

Banty

--

Banty

May 30th 06, 01:02 PM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >,
>Chookie
>> says...
>> >
>> >In article >, Banty >
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >> >> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher based
>on her
>> >> >> guess as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.
>> >> >
>> >> >Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to say
>about
>> >> >it.
>> >>
>> >> But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know
>that
>> >> than the teacher.
>> >
>> >Why? The teacher looks all of 21, and I know how aware of such issues I
>was
>> >at that age. Nor do I want her to get into trouble with the boss if she
>has
>> >offered me an off-the-top-of-her-head solution (and I believe she has).
>As I
>> >said, I will ask the teacher to check that it's OK with the boss before I
>> >leave DS1 in the room.
>> >
>>
>> With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised
>you're
>> trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack of
>> regard?)
>>
>This is an issue that a number of universities are looking at actually ....
>the issue thathere is some concern that, while they are producing graduates
>who's knowledge of a subject matter is fitting, their knowledge of other
>issues (such as Workplace Health and Safety Regulations) pertinent to their
>job is often quite lacking. This does not mean that she is not perfectly
>capable of teaching music.

Oh, so, you'll grant that she can teach music. But not that she's mature enough
to handle classs disruption issues suitably. How respectful. (I hope she has
few parents like that, she'd be walking on eggshells the minute she leaves the
strictly musical training!) But the matter still stands, that it's a concern
between the teacher and her employer(s).

>
>> So how about just finding another solution? Your compatriot Amanda is
>telling
>> us that businesses faced with parents wanting youngers in tow have all
>found
>> equitable solutiont, so they must abound.
>
>...or perhaps you are deliberately oversimplifying their context in another
>attempt at humour??

Firstly, is there a problem with the idea of finding another solution??

As to oversimplification, - if, as you say, good business practice is to
accomodate the youngers, why would Chookie's area be benighted by businesses
with poor practice? You gave examples of how where you are, because of what you
view as common sense and common business practice, you have many options. Has
that changed?

Banty

Banty

--

Banty

May 30th 06, 01:04 PM

In article >, FlowerGirl says...
>

>
>In another thread a while back,
>> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
>> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
>> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
>> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
>> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
>> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
>> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
>> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
>> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
>> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
>> be unhappy.
>
>This is true, providing the choice is there.

Then one makes choices according to what other possibilities one has, like
asking a relative to help out.

Banty

--

Staycalm

May 30th 06, 01:58 PM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
> says...
>>
>
>>
>>In another thread a while back,
>>> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
>>> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
>>> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
>>> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
>>> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
>>> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
>>> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
>>> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
>>> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
>>> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
>>> be unhappy.
>>
>>This is true, providing the choice is there.
>
> Then one makes choices according to what other possibilities one has, like
> asking a relative to help out.
>
> Banty
But didn't she already explain why she couldn't do that? One parent visually
impaired and other relatives with busy lives? I'm in the same boat as far as
not having anyone to help us look after our daughter. It creates an immense
stress when circumstances mean that we are forced to rely on (for example)
the parent of one of DDs friends to look after her so that we can celebrate
our anniversary with a meal out. Not everyone has reliable or regular
backup.

In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure on
OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence in
the class. This creates conflict because OP now has two responsibilities -
proving support for older child while looking after younger. To have the
teacher tell her to go into the hallway sounds rather thoughtless to me.
This is not an environment likely to attract a toddler, not to mention the
safety issues involved with stairs, etc.

I work with children, especially babies and preschoolers. They are
distracting at times but they are also easily distracted to more positive
behaviours and tasks, given a little imagination. This teacher sounds as if
they are a little too focused on the class and not the wider ramifications.
This is not likely to be the only time they will be faced with this
situation. It is not that difficult to provide a little support to a mum
with a younger child. I have to do it all the time when trying to achieve
other tasks. This teacher risks losing her client. No big deal you say? But
what if she's not the only one who has to bring a younger child or baby?

I feel everyone is looking at this too negatively. Maybe OP needs to suggest
to the owner/director that they create a policy with a program or strategy
that is more inclusive of the presence of the younger ones. After all they
will be the next client in only a year or two. If I were the OP I would have
given up before now. I respect her perseverance

Liz

Banty

May 30th 06, 02:24 PM

In article >, Staycalm says...
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> In article >, FlowerGirl
>> says...
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>In another thread a while back,
>>>> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
>>>> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
>>>> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
>>>> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
>>>> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
>>>> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
>>>> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
>>>> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
>>>> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
>>>> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
>>>> be unhappy.
>>>
>>>This is true, providing the choice is there.
>>
>> Then one makes choices according to what other possibilities one has, like
>> asking a relative to help out.
>>
>> Banty
>But didn't she already explain why she couldn't do that? One parent visually
>impaired and other relatives with busy lives? I'm in the same boat as far as
>not having anyone to help us look after our daughter. It creates an immense
>stress when circumstances mean that we are forced to rely on (for example)
>the parent of one of DDs friends to look after her so that we can celebrate
>our anniversary with a meal out. Not everyone has reliable or regular
>backup.

She had a reason listed for everything, but frankly some of them were self
imposed, like "not wanting to impose" on inlaws, only considering her father as
a baby-watcher but not a music-class helper for the older child, dismissing the
teacher's suggestion out of hand. Not that things *can't* be done, but simply
nothing was equal or better than the simple humming convenience of taking baby
with and having everyone else at the music class deal with it (speaking of
imposing...)

Frankly, I'm a bit surprised, Chookie hasn't struck me as the excusifying type,
she's very level headed - perhaps it's the alignment of the planets ;-) (I
hesitate to say 'the phase of the moon')

>
>In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
>provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure on
>OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence in
>the class. This creates conflict because OP now has two responsibilities -
>proving support for older child while looking after younger. To have the
>teacher tell her to go into the hallway sounds rather thoughtless to me.
>This is not an environment likely to attract a toddler, not to mention the
>safety issues involved with stairs, etc.
>

Look, I'm a single mother (from the beginning) raising my son alone, living in
an area with no relatives nearby (my family is scattered all over the
continent). I face these time and space conflicts constantly. But that has
meant being willing to create solutions, rather than looking everywhere outside
to rescue me from whatever resulting predicament.

>I work with children, especially babies and preschoolers. They are
>distracting at times but they are also easily distracted to more positive
>behaviours and tasks, given a little imagination. This teacher sounds as if
>they are a little too focused on the class and not the wider ramifications.
>This is not likely to be the only time they will be faced with this
>situation. It is not that difficult to provide a little support to a mum
>with a younger child. I have to do it all the time when trying to achieve
>other tasks. This teacher risks losing her client. No big deal you say? But
>what if she's not the only one who has to bring a younger child or baby?

But* *that's* *not* *the* *class* *format* *she* *is* *holding*.
Apparently it's not a little free-form preschool, it's a *music class*. I'd
expect a teacher to be focussing on the class and the music! As other parents
(think - how many of the other parents have arranged other care for youngers,
have called their inlaws or otherwise rearranged schedules) expect and thought
they they had arranged and paid for.

I think you're seeing only one set of interests here.

Banty

--

Penny Gaines

May 30th 06, 02:59 PM

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> "FlowerGirl" ) writes:
>
>>A hallway is not a waiting area ... no matter how much you try and insist it
>>is.
>
>
> I disagree. People wait in hallways, and I can call them
> "waiting areas" if I want.

It depends what a "hallway" is, if you speak Australian English.

In Brirish English, a hallway has that element of a passage route
which is missing from "hall" - which could be almost anything from
a building to a minute room - and also from "waiting area".

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

Leanne

May 30th 06, 03:11 PM

> Then perhaps you can produce it. Is it really true that, where you are,
> one
> never stops in hallways.

You are taking this too far. You can't see the message because all you want
to do is prove *you're* right. You are suggesting that its fine to play in a
hallway, its not. Not because she wouldn't be able to move out of the way
quickly, but if there is toys on the ground, something blocking the top of
the stairs so the toddler cant escape or whatever, people could either fall
over toys, get stuck at whatever is blocking the stairs and so on. If
someone trips over and falls and badly hurts themselves the owners are up
for a large sum of money, hence our Liability laws.

Cathy Kearns

May 30th 06, 03:40 PM

"Staycalm" > wrote in message
u...
> In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
> provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure
on
> OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence in
> the class.

I see the issue as the music teacher provides a service to multiple (4)
children. If the teacher was only providing a class to the OP's older child
this would not be an issue at all. In addition, the requirements of the
class are for the student and a parent or guardian to be there. Perhaps the
OP wasn't aware of this requirement when she signed up, but now it does
place pressure on her, as she has split responsibilities. This also puts
the teacher in a pickle, as she has three other students that signed up for
a preschool music class to be taken with their parent, without other
distractions. And, according to the OP, at least one of those students has
been shown to be easily distracted, which would make additional distractions
by a toddler harder to deal with.

Given the constraints that the OP has, I must say I'd give up on this class
for now, as the set up of this particular class does not fit with her family
dynamics. There were several other classes at the same time, perhaps she
can find a class that does not require parental participation. If her older
child is too young for that, I'd try and get private lesson, where bringing
the toddler would not be a problem.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 03:44 PM

Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>> Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
>>> I only have an objection to the
>>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>>> namely, a distracting toddler.
>>
>> I could be wrong, but I think you're the first one
>> to mention this notion, which you say you object to.
>
> I think asking the teacher to solve the
> problem of what to do with a younger sib is expecting
> someone either to accommodate the toddler in the
> class or find some other accommodation.

I think you and I have different feelings or conceptions
about what a request or "asking" is. I think this same
difference came up in the thread about asking a restaurant
for a balloon. To me, a request or "asking" is something
that can be properly answered either yes or no. To you,
perhaps, "asking" is tantamount to "insisting".

To me, if someone says, "Would you like some coffee?"
the person is not insisting that I drink coffee. Similarly,
if someone asks, "Could you please come over on Saturday
and help me move some furniture?" the person is not
insisting that the other person move furniture.
The other person is free to answer "No, thank you" to
the coffee or somewhat similarly "No, sorry, I'm busy
Saturday" or "I have a back injury." To me, "insisting"
is something different: it's when one says things like
"you really owe it to me to move that furniture Saturday"
or other things that put pressure on the person over
and above merely making a request.

I admit that simply making a gentle request does tend
to put some pressure on the person. The pressure is
considerably less if the request is in an email to multiple
people asking for volunteers and expecting no response
from non-volunteers. The amount of pressure varies --
but still, to me, a "request" allows freedom and is
gentler than "insisting".

> In the pursuit
> of solving the problem, I don't have any objection to
> asking the teacher if she knows of other classes that
> do accommodate younger kids, but I think it crosses
> the line if you throw the teacher's request back in
> her lap by asking her to change the current class
> requirements or create a new class that accommodates
> younger sibs.

I guess we disagree here, and that's fine. I suspect
the disagreement centres on the social meaning of "asking".

> There's a world of difference between
> saying, "I'm so sorry Johnny has become a distraction.
> It's a challenge for us to find another caretaker at
> this time. Would you be able to recommend another
> class that can accommodate both children, or a facility
> that offers childcare?" and saying, "Well, I don't see
> how I can manage Johnny in the hallway and I can't get
> a sitter. If you want to keep clients, I think it would
> be in your best interests to offer some kind of reasonable
> solution for parents like me who have younger kids."
> And anyway, requests for different course offerings are
> typically best discussed with the director/manager of
> the school than the teachers.

Good point about talking to the director/manager.
I don't think anyone suggested using the wording
in your second example. I think someone would only
say that if they were angry and lost their cool
and forgot to talk diplomatically. I don't advocate
talking quite like that -- though I do think it may
be a good idea to suggest to the school, or "ask" the
school, to provide some solution for younger siblings.
Can't hurt to ask, I think. I know you disagree with
that, and that's fine.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 03:50 PM

Banty ) writes:
> Oh, so, you'll grant that she can teach music. But not that she's mature enough
> to handle classs disruption issues suitably. How respectful. (I hope she has
> few parents like that, she'd be walking on eggshells the minute she leaves the
> strictly musical training!) But the matter still stands, that it's a concern
> between the teacher and her employer(s).

I think it is respectful, or at least considerate.
It's fine to recognize that certain people have certain
capabilities. I don't think the teacher would be likely to be offended
by Chookie asking the director as a double-check.

Catherine Woodgold

May 30th 06, 03:52 PM

"Staycalm" ) writes:
> It is not that difficult to provide a little support to a mum
> with a younger child.

Maybe if you explain how, Chookie can suggest it to the
teacher.

Irene

May 30th 06, 05:04 PM

Banty wrote:
> In article >, Chookie
> says...
> >
> >In article >, Banty >
> >wrote:
> >
> >> >Ummm - a hall is a passageway that needs to be kept clear in case of fire.
> >> >You can walk through them but you aren't mean to use them for anything else.
> >>
> >> Oh puleeze, you're reaching, really reaching.
> >
> >Why, Banty! Didn't know you were an expert on NSW law!
> >
>
> Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an employee
> regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance or law
> that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than actively
> walking in staight lines down their courses.
>
> Banty (I'm waiting)

(Putting on my architect had) While I know absolutely nothing about
Public Liability laws in NSW, I will mention that in the BOCA Building
Code and the International Building Code (which was written by an
American organization, fwiw. I can't remember if it has been adopted
anywhere else), a Means of Egress is not meant to be used for anything
other than exiting. I'm not sure whether or not a toddler playing
would be interpreted as Use, however. If there was a bookcase with
toys, that would be forbidden, but I'm not sure about simply being in
there.

Irene

Banty

May 30th 06, 05:10 PM

In article >, Leanne says...
>
>
>> Then perhaps you can produce it. Is it really true that, where you are,
>> one
>> never stops in hallways.
>
>You are taking this too far. You can't see the message because all you want
>to do is prove *you're* right. You are suggesting that its fine to play in a
>hallway, its not. Not because she wouldn't be able to move out of the way
>quickly, but if there is toys on the ground, something blocking the top of
>the stairs so the toddler cant escape or whatever, people could either fall
>over toys, get stuck at whatever is blocking the stairs and so on. If
>someone trips over and falls and badly hurts themselves the owners are up
>for a large sum of money, hence our Liability laws.
>
>

::sigh::

There's no reason to presume that toys are involved, or blocking stairs is
involved. Only that that's what the teacher suggested. It's an option
presented. It may not be the *best* option in anyone's view, but, if *no*
options are to be considered, then it gets back to reviewing the options that
have been rejected, some out of hand.

I'm a ex-EMT. I *know* there are ordinances and insurance restrictions
concerning what a hallway can be used for. Such that they can be used in the
case of an emergency. Blocking them with storage boxes - a no no. But waiting
for someone, or walking about with a child? C'mon.

But - back to the main point. The *teacher* told her she could to that.

Banty

--

Ericka Kammerer

May 30th 06, 05:27 PM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> ...

> Clearly we disagree. I do think the teacher is being " a tad precious"
> (which doesn't mean OTT to me)... but like I said .. its her class and her
> rules are the rules.
> From what I understand, Chookie's DS2 is not making a lot of noise, but is
> being distracting by "exploring" the accumulation of "junk" in the room.
> Personally, I don't think that's too distracting (which means I think the
> teacher is being a "tad precious"), but apparently the teacher does and
> since its her classroom, she does get to set the rules.

That may be the source of our disagreement. My
interpretation of what she described is that he's toddling
around the room exploring all the "junk" that's there.
I think that *is* legitimately distracting to a class.
It's noisy as a toddler paws through the stuff and picks
it up and checks it out, even if the child is chattering
or screeching while he's doing it. And what self-respecting
group of preschoolers isn't going to be distracted and
checking out what the toddler has found now? It's perfectly
normal for the toddler to be active and inquisitive, but
it is also perfectly normal for the students to be distracted
by this normal activity, even if it's not terribly noisy.
So, I think the distraction is a legitimate concern, not
being "precious," even though I'm sure Chookie hasn't
been letting her toddler run totally amok in the classroom.
I have a toddler, and I don't think there's any way
I could keep her sufficiently contained in such a
class that she wouldn't be a legitimate distraction
to the other kids. Heck, when she got to be that
age I stopped taking her in to piano lessons even
though my kids have private lessons and are older
because there was just no way that she wouldn't
be to much of a distraction, no matter how many great
toys and books or whatever I brought along to keep
her occupied--and there's nobody there but my own
kids and the teacher to be affected by her behavior!

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer

May 30th 06, 05:40 PM

Catherine Woodgold wrote:
> Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
>> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>>> Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
>>>> I only have an objection to the
>>>> notion that it is within the rights of any participant in
>>>> the *current* class to insist that others accommodate a
>>>> situation that the class was not meant to accommodate,
>>>> namely, a distracting toddler.
>>> I could be wrong, but I think you're the first one
>>> to mention this notion, which you say you object to.
>> I think asking the teacher to solve the
>> problem of what to do with a younger sib is expecting
>> someone either to accommodate the toddler in the
>> class or find some other accommodation.
>
> I think you and I have different feelings or conceptions
> about what a request or "asking" is. I think this same
> difference came up in the thread about asking a restaurant
> for a balloon. To me, a request or "asking" is something
> that can be properly answered either yes or no. To you,
> perhaps, "asking" is tantamount to "insisting".
>
> To me, if someone says, "Would you like some coffee?"
> the person is not insisting that I drink coffee. Similarly,
> if someone asks, "Could you please come over on Saturday
> and help me move some furniture?" the person is not
> insisting that the other person move furniture.
> The other person is free to answer "No, thank you" to
> the coffee or somewhat similarly "No, sorry, I'm busy
> Saturday" or "I have a back injury." To me, "insisting"
> is something different: it's when one says things like
> "you really owe it to me to move that furniture Saturday"
> or other things that put pressure on the person over
> and above merely making a request.
>
> I admit that simply making a gentle request does tend
> to put some pressure on the person.

That's the issue. There are questions that
one doesn't ask, either because they're too intrusive
or because they reveal an expectation one has of the
other person, even one acknowledges that the other
person can decline. It would be rude of me to ask
you to give me some cash, even though you would
obviously be quite able to say no!

> The pressure is
> considerably less if the request is in an email to multiple
> people asking for volunteers and expecting no response
> from non-volunteers. The amount of pressure varies --
> but still, to me, a "request" allows freedom and is
> gentler than "insisting".

Even if it is gentler than insisting, it's
just not appropriate to ask the teacher to solve
this problem. One can ask the teacher for advice
on what other classes might be suitable, or whether
a mixed-age class will be offered in the future, or
something like that, but one does not ask the teacher
to continue to put up with a situation that she's
already said is too distracting or to change the
format of the current class to accommodate or to
find some other solution to the current issue.
The current issue is the OP's to deal with. Even
if the school *wanted* to offer a different format
class or provide childcare or whatever, it would
be extremely unlikely that they could do so in
time to resolve this problem right now. So, step
one is to fix this problem at this time. *IF*
the OP is interested, step two might be to discuss
other options for the future with management, but
if you do step two before step one it's rather
insulting, as it implies that you're passing the
buck and expecting someone else to fix your problem.
You do your part *first*, and then you consider
asking others to make some changes.

>> There's a world of difference between
>> saying, "I'm so sorry Johnny has become a distraction.
>> It's a challenge for us to find another caretaker at
>> this time. Would you be able to recommend another
>> class that can accommodate both children, or a facility
>> that offers childcare?" and saying, "Well, I don't see
>> how I can manage Johnny in the hallway and I can't get
>> a sitter. If you want to keep clients, I think it would
>> be in your best interests to offer some kind of reasonable
>> solution for parents like me who have younger kids."
>> And anyway, requests for different course offerings are
>> typically best discussed with the director/manager of
>> the school than the teachers.
>
> Good point about talking to the director/manager.
> I don't think anyone suggested using the wording
> in your second example. I think someone would only
> say that if they were angry and lost their cool
> and forgot to talk diplomatically.

But you know, people are smart. You can
gussy up the phrasing all you like, but if that's
what you *mean*, that's what they'll hear, and
they'll be just as offended as if you'd said it
baldly. You only have the credibility to start
talking about what others can do for you after
you've fulfilled your own responsibilities.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Ericka Kammerer

May 30th 06, 06:18 PM

Ericka Kammerer wrote:

> It's noisy as a toddler paws through the stuff and picks
> it up and checks it out, even if the child is chattering
> or screeching while he's doing it.

Oops, that should be "even if the child is
*NOT* chattering or screeching." Sorry 'bout that.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Welches

May 30th 06, 06:46 PM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>> Ericka Kammerer ) writes:
>>> Catherine Woodgold wrote:
>> Good point about talking to the director/manager.
>> I don't think anyone suggested using the wording
>> in your second example. I think someone would only
>> say that if they were angry and lost their cool
>> and forgot to talk diplomatically.
>
> But you know, people are smart. You can
> gussy up the phrasing all you like, but if that's
> what you *mean*, that's what they'll hear, and
> they'll be just as offended as if you'd said it
> baldly. You only have the credibility to start
> talking about what others can do for you after
> you've fulfilled your own responsibilities.
>
Actually, I'd rather someone asked directly. Then I can refuse politely with
my reasons. If someone hints then it is difficult to answer directly without
giving offense.
Hinting, in this sort of circumstance, is about your feelings, not about the
other person's feelings ime.
Debbie

Donna Metler

May 30th 06, 06:54 PM

"Staycalm" > wrote in message
u...
> "Banty" > wrote in message
> ...
> > In article >, FlowerGirl
> > says...
> >>
> >
> >>
> >>In another thread a while back,
> >>> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
> >>> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
> >>> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
> >>> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
> >>> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
> >>> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
> >>> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
> >>> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
> >>> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
> >>> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
> >>> be unhappy.
> >>
> >>This is true, providing the choice is there.
> >
> > Then one makes choices according to what other possibilities one has,
like
> > asking a relative to help out.
> >
> > Banty
> But didn't she already explain why she couldn't do that? One parent
visually
> impaired and other relatives with busy lives? I'm in the same boat as far
as
> not having anyone to help us look after our daughter. It creates an
immense
> stress when circumstances mean that we are forced to rely on (for example)
> the parent of one of DDs friends to look after her so that we can
celebrate
> our anniversary with a meal out. Not everyone has reliable or regular
> backup.
>
> In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
> provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure
on
> OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence in
> the class. This creates conflict because OP now has two responsibilities -
> proving support for older child while looking after younger. To have the
> teacher tell her to go into the hallway sounds rather thoughtless to me.
> This is not an environment likely to attract a toddler, not to mention the
> safety issues involved with stairs, etc.
>
> I work with children, especially babies and preschoolers. They are
> distracting at times but they are also easily distracted to more positive
> behaviours and tasks, given a little imagination. This teacher sounds as
if
> they are a little too focused on the class and not the wider
ramifications.
> This is not likely to be the only time they will be faced with this
> situation. It is not that difficult to provide a little support to a mum
> with a younger child. I have to do it all the time when trying to achieve
> other tasks. This teacher risks losing her client. No big deal you say?
But
> what if she's not the only one who has to bring a younger child or baby?
>
> I feel everyone is looking at this too negatively. Maybe OP needs to
suggest
> to the owner/director that they create a policy with a program or strategy
> that is more inclusive of the presence of the younger ones. After all they
> will be the next client in only a year or two. If I were the OP I would
have
> given up before now. I respect her perseverance
>

First of all, if you haven't seen my .sig, I teach Kindermusik and group
Orff classes for children aged 0-9 through a university community music
school, so my current teaching assignment is almost exactly what is the
situation here. If anything, we have more flexibility because while we're
out there to provide programs for parents and their children, we're also a
learning lab for the university, and as such, are subsidized by them. You
seem to have entirely ignored my posts.

I have repeatedly pointed out, such programs exist, internationally.
Kindermusik, Music Together, and Musikgarten are all international, and all
of them have multi-age classes and curriculums available (for Music
Together, a multi-age class is their primary service delivery mode, and
their only single-age class is one for parents with infants designed to be
an entry into the curriculum). However, ALL of these programs are very
limited because of their inclusive focus, because you can't use instruments
which aren't safe for the youngest child in the class, going both directions
(both that the child can't hurt the instrument and the instrument can't hurt
the child). Therefore, all of these classes are family music making groups,
not focused education, and will not have the same level of instruction that
a single age class does. You will not get early piano instruction in such a
setting. Therefore, it will not be the same sort of class as the OP's son is
currently in. If she wants this sort of setting, she has to accept the
limitations of it-which is that a) parent participation is expected, and
often in such a class parent education is as big of a component as child
education, with the parent learning what to do with their child all week,
and b) younger siblings cannot be easily accommodated if they're mobile and
getting into things. It is not safe to have a young toddler toddling around
a room with keyboards, stands, and cords-too big of a chance for an
accident. In addition, with a class of four, of which only one parent needs
accommodations for a young child, it is unreasonable to expect the studio
owner to take on the liability and expense of providing on-site childcare,
which would require a) a safe place to do so b) appropriate insurance and
licensure to do so (it is a far different kettle of fish for a business to
provide childcare vs a parent hiring someone to do so) and c) finding an
appropriate person. It is highly likely that the expense to the center to
provide childcare during this class would be more than they're making from
this student.

No one teaches such classes to get rich. You are extremely limited in the
hours of the day you can teach, often are paying exorbitantly for rental
space, and your overhead is quite high, especially for keyboard/group piano.
I know it looks like a lot to the parent ($200/semester, therefore the
teacher is making $800 for teaching one hour a week for 15 weeks-sounds
great, doesn't it?) but actually, a class with four students probably isn't
really paying its own way and is being subsidized by other classes, unless
the tuition is through the roof. For my current program, our break-even
point is 6 students in a class-and WE don't have to pay building rent
because the university music department owns our building. All we have to
pay is our overhead-salaries for our teachers, administrator/secretary
(shared with the entire music school) and custodian, insurance (a MAJOR
expense), maintenance on our building, instruments and other supples, etc.
We rely heavily on SAHMs and retired music teachers for our staff-people who
aren't depending on the salary to do more than possibly give a little extra
spending money-and, in most cases, are getting at least part of their
compensation in tuition for their children. One of the other teachers who
does a similar program in my area has one of the largest programs in the
USA, with several teachers working for her and her own dedicated studio in a
nice, affluent area. Her salary last year? 30K. It took 5 years before she
began to actually start paying herself a salary and seeing the check (before
then, it was a bookeeping notation, but there simply wasn't enough cash to
do so). Unless Australia is substantially different from the USA (and from
what I've read on the international teacher's boards, I don't think it is),
it's unlikely there's a lot of extra income to play with in the business,
particularly not if this is a young, new teacher who has not yet built up
her own clientele and following.

The bottom line is that eventually there comes a point where parents have to
choose if they can do the class as it exists, or if they need to find one
that meets their needs-because it is not reasonable to expect any given
class to just magically do so.

Donna Metler
Orff/Kindermusik specialist/master teacher,
University of Memphis Community Music School

> Liz
>
>

your_friend

May 30th 06, 08:54 PM

Caledonia

May 30th 06, 09:00 PM

Penny Gaines wrote:

> In Brirish English, a hallway has that element of a passage route
> which is missing from "hall" - which could be almost anything from
> a building to a minute room - and also from "waiting area".

Is a 'minute room' a very small waiting room?

(I confess, I thought of one of those No-Tell Motel rooms .....)

Caledonia

your_friend

May 30th 06, 09:10 PM

Never argue with an idiot. They'll always bring you down to their level and
beat you with experience.

"Staycalm" > wrote in message
u...
> "Banty" > wrote in message
> ...
>> In article >, FlowerGirl
>> says...
>>>
>>
>>>
>>>In another thread a while back,
>>>> I had already discussed with Chookie that my personal preference
>>>> is private piano lessons with someone who runs an active studio,
>>>> but starting slightly older than her child. Obviously, that's
>>>> not Chookie's choice and that's fine. The fact that we will
>>>> each vote with our feet and go to different types of teachers
>>>> and classes doesn't mean that either type of class is wrong
>>>> or inadequate, or that either type of teacher is being
>>>> "precious." It just means that we have different preferences
>>>> and choose accordingly. Thank goodness there *are* different
>>>> types of classes out there, or one of us (if not both) would
>>>> be unhappy.
>>>
>>>This is true, providing the choice is there.
>>
>> Then one makes choices according to what other possibilities one has,
>> like
>> asking a relative to help out.
>>
>> Banty
> But didn't she already explain why she couldn't do that? One parent
> visually impaired and other relatives with busy lives? I'm in the same
> boat as far as not having anyone to help us look after our daughter. It
> creates an immense stress when circumstances mean that we are forced to
> rely on (for example) the parent of one of DDs friends to look after her
> so that we can celebrate our anniversary with a meal out. Not everyone has
> reliable or regular backup.
>
> In this situation I feel that the issue is really that the music teacher
> provides a service - the class for OP's older child - but places pressure
> on OP's family responsibilities by requesting or requiring Mum's presence
> in the class. This creates conflict because OP now has two
> responsibilities - proving support for older child while looking after
> younger. To have the teacher tell her to go into the hallway sounds rather
> thoughtless to me. This is not an environment likely to attract a toddler,
> not to mention the safety issues involved with stairs, etc.
>
> I work with children, especially babies and preschoolers. They are
> distracting at times but they are also easily distracted to more positive
> behaviours and tasks, given a little imagination. This teacher sounds as
> if they are a little too focused on the class and not the wider
> ramifications. This is not likely to be the only time they will be faced
> with this situation. It is not that difficult to provide a little support
> to a mum with a younger child. I have to do it all the time when trying to
> achieve other tasks. This teacher risks losing her client. No big deal you
> say? But what if she's not the only one who has to bring a younger child
> or baby?
>
> I feel everyone is looking at this too negatively. Maybe OP needs to
> suggest to the owner/director that they create a policy with a program or
> strategy that is more inclusive of the presence of the younger ones. After
> all they will be the next client in only a year or two. If I were the OP I
> would have given up before now. I respect her perseverance
>
> Liz
>

Inviato da X-Privat.Org - Registrazione gratuita http://www.x-privat.org/join.php

Penny Gaines

May 30th 06, 11:59 PM

Caledonia wrote:
> Penny Gaines wrote:
>
>
>>In Brirish English, a hallway has that element of a passage route
>>which is missing from "hall" - which could be almost anything from
>>a building to a minute room - and also from "waiting area".
>
>
> Is a 'minute room' a very small waiting room?
>
> (I confess, I thought of one of those No-Tell Motel rooms .....)
>
> Caledonia
>

"Minute" as in very very small, perhaps 1 metre by 2 metres
(or 3 feet by 6 feet) or even smaller. I'm thinking of a room
big enough for two doors leading off, but not neccessarily with
room for the doors to both open in to the room.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

FlowerGirl

May 31st 06, 03:06 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> Ericka Kammerer wrote:
>
> > It's noisy as a toddler paws through the stuff and picks
> > it up and checks it out, even if the child is chattering
> > or screeching while he's doing it.
>
> Oops, that should be "even if the child is
> *NOT* chattering or screeching." Sorry 'bout that.

Ah - I'm not the type to pull anyone up on that sort of stuff Ericka ....
but I am enjoying our debate.
Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 31st 06, 03:24 AM

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> FlowerGirl wrote:
> > "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> > ...
>
> > Clearly we disagree. I do think the teacher is being " a tad precious"
> > (which doesn't mean OTT to me)... but like I said .. its her class and
her
> > rules are the rules.
> > From what I understand, Chookie's DS2 is not making a lot of noise, but
is
> > being distracting by "exploring" the accumulation of "junk" in the room.
> > Personally, I don't think that's too distracting (which means I think
the
> > teacher is being a "tad precious"), but apparently the teacher does and
> > since its her classroom, she does get to set the rules.
>
> That may be the source of our disagreement. My
> interpretation of what she described is that he's toddling
> around the room exploring all the "junk" that's there.
> I think that *is* legitimately distracting to a class.
> It's noisy as a toddler paws through the stuff and picks
> it up and checks it out, even if the child is chattering
> or screeching while he's doing it. And what self-respecting
> group of preschoolers isn't going to be distracted and
> checking out what the toddler has found now? It's perfectly
> normal for the toddler to be active and inquisitive, but
> it is also perfectly normal for the students to be distracted
> by this normal activity, even if it's not terribly noisy.
> So, I think the distraction is a legitimate concern, not
> being "precious," even though I'm sure Chookie hasn't
> been letting her toddler run totally amok in the classroom.
> I have a toddler, and I don't think there's any way
> I could keep her sufficiently contained in such a
> class that she wouldn't be a legitimate distraction
> to the other kids. Heck, when she got to be that
> age I stopped taking her in to piano lessons even
> though my kids have private lessons and are older
> because there was just no way that she wouldn't
> be to much of a distraction, no matter how many great
> toys and books or whatever I brought along to keep
> her occupied--and there's nobody there but my own
> kids and the teacher to be affected by her behavior!
>
I guess this is the source of our disagreement..... what we each consider to
be distracting.
I'm quite sure that teacher found Chookie's toddler distracting ... hence
her saying something to Chookie.
Personally I don't think its so distracting, but I'm not that teacher
teaching that class ..... (but I do take storytime /singing and dancing once
a week for about 20-30 under 4's .... plus their parent / carer ... and its
not the kids that I find distracting ... its the adults talking at the back
!) Its not the same, but perhaps you see where I am coming from?
I don't deny that the teacher the right to set her own rules though.

Amanda
....and thanks Ericka - I am quite enjoying the level and tone of our debate!

FlowerGirl

May 31st 06, 03:28 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, FlowerGirl
says...
> >
> >
> >"Banty" > wrote in message
> ...
> >> In article >,
> >Chookie
> >> says...
> >> >
> >> >In article >, Banty
>
> >> >wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> >> At any rate, it's not up to *Chookie* to overrule her teacher
based
> >on her
> >> >> >> guess as to what the teacher's boss has to say about it.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Actually its probably more up to what the insurance agency has to
say
> >about
> >> >> >it.
> >> >>
> >> >> But the *point* is - Chookie is in much *less* of a position to know
> >that
> >> >> than the teacher.
> >> >
> >> >Why? The teacher looks all of 21, and I know how aware of such issues
I
> >was
> >> >at that age. Nor do I want her to get into trouble with the boss if
she
> >has
> >> >offered me an off-the-top-of-her-head solution (and I believe she
has).
> >As I
> >> >said, I will ask the teacher to check that it's OK with the boss
before I
> >> >leave DS1 in the room.
> >> >
> >>
> >> With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised
> >you're
> >> trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack
of
> >> regard?)
> >>
> >This is an issue that a number of universities are looking at actually
.....
> >the issue thathere is some concern that, while they are producing
graduates
> >who's knowledge of a subject matter is fitting, their knowledge of other
> >issues (such as Workplace Health and Safety Regulations) pertinent to
their
> >job is often quite lacking. This does not mean that she is not perfectly
> >capable of teaching music.
>
> Oh, so, you'll grant that she can teach music. But not that she's mature
enough
> to handle classs disruption issues suitably. How respectful. (I hope she
has
> few parents like that, she'd be walking on eggshells the minute she leaves
the
> strictly musical training!) But the matter still stands, that it's a
concern
> between the teacher and her employer(s).

That's not what I said at all. Try re-reading my above paragraph again.
>
>
> >
> >> So how about just finding another solution? Your compatriot Amanda is
> >telling
> >> us that businesses faced with parents wanting youngers in tow have all
> >found
> >> equitable solutiont, so they must abound.
> >
> >...or perhaps you are deliberately oversimplifying their context in
another
> >attempt at humour??
>
> Firstly, is there a problem with the idea of finding another solution??
>
> As to oversimplification, - if, as you say, good business practice is to
> accomodate the youngers, why would Chookie's area be benighted by
businesses
> with poor practice? You gave examples of how where you are, because of
what you
> view as common sense and common business practice, you have many options.
Has
> that changed?
>

No - again you misinterperet. Good business practice is to listen to
clients so that you know the service being given is that which is meeting
client's needs. I gave examples of possible solutions.

Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 31st 06, 03:41 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Leanne says...
> >
> >
> >> Then perhaps you can produce it. Is it really true that, where you
are,
> >> one
> >> never stops in hallways.
> >
> >You are taking this too far. You can't see the message because all you
want
> >to do is prove *you're* right. You are suggesting that its fine to play
in a
> >hallway, its not. Not because she wouldn't be able to move out of the way
> >quickly, but if there is toys on the ground, something blocking the top
of
> >the stairs so the toddler cant escape or whatever, people could either
fall
> >over toys, get stuck at whatever is blocking the stairs and so on. If
> >someone trips over and falls and badly hurts themselves the owners are up
> >for a large sum of money, hence our Liability laws.
> >
> >
>
> ::sigh::
>
> There's no reason to presume that toys are involved, or blocking stairs is
> involved. Only that that's what the teacher suggested. It's an option
> presented. It may not be the *best* option in anyone's view, but, if *no*
> options are to be considered, then it gets back to reviewing the options
that
> have been rejected, some out of hand.

Do you really think that Chookie pacing the hallway (which I belive is quite
short) whilst holding on to her <1 yo DS is a well thought out suggestion?
>
> I'm a ex-EMT. I *know* there are ordinances and insurance restrictions
> concerning what a hallway can be used for. Such that they can be used in
the
> case of an emergency. Blocking them with storage boxes - a no no. But
waiting
> for someone, or walking about with a child? C'mon.

I'm sorry - I'm not sure what an EMT is.
In a previous job, I was the scientist in charge of a research station and
as one of my less enjoyable tasks as OIC was being on the Workplace Health
and Safety Committee for our worksite. I am also quite familiar with
safety regulations wrt to egress routes.
"Walking about with a child" would probably be permitted under the act.
From what I understand though, the hallyway is quite small, so "walking
about" may not be an option.
>
> But - back to the main point. The *teacher* told her she could to that.

....and if I were Chookie, I'd also be checking out whether what the teacher
said was OK with the boss of the music school. AS I said, she's probably
perfectly capable of teaching music. Her knowledge of WHS rules may not be
so great though.

(On a side issue ... technically, centres which have facilities offered for
small children are supposed to have safety features which would prevent a
small child from falling down a flight of stairs. I'm assuming the door to
the classroom would orsniarily provide the barrier for the children so the
use of *that* hallway as a waiting area for young children would be in
breach of those regulations as well).

Amanda

FlowerGirl

May 31st 06, 03:42 AM

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Leanne says...
> >
> >
> >> Since YOU apparently are, such that you'd confidently overrule an
employee
> >> regarding her own workplace rules, you can produce here the ordinance
or
> >> law
> >> that disallows any and all incidental use of hallways other than
actively
> >> walking in staight lines down their courses.
> >>
> >> Banty (I'm waiting)
> >
> >Its not her work place rules, its a public lability law.
> >
> >
>
> Then perhaps you can produce it. Is it really true that, where you are,
one
> never stops in hallways.

There's that oversimplification again.
Amanda

Ericka Kammerer

May 31st 06, 03:47 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> FlowerGirl wrote:
>>> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>> Clearly we disagree. I do think the teacher is being " a tad precious"
>>> (which doesn't mean OTT to me)... but like I said .. its her class and
> her
>>> rules are the rules.
>>> From what I understand, Chookie's DS2 is not making a lot of noise, but
> is
>>> being distracting by "exploring" the accumulation of "junk" in the room.
>>> Personally, I don't think that's too distracting (which means I think
> the
>>> teacher is being a "tad precious"), but apparently the teacher does and
>>> since its her classroom, she does get to set the rules.
>> That may be the source of our disagreement. My
>> interpretation of what she described is that he's toddling
>> around the room exploring all the "junk" that's there.
>> I think that *is* legitimately distracting to a class.
>> It's noisy as a toddler paws through the stuff and picks
>> it up and checks it out, even if the child is chattering
>> or screeching while he's doing it. And what self-respecting
>> group of preschoolers isn't going to be distracted and
>> checking out what the toddler has found now? It's perfectly
>> normal for the toddler to be active and inquisitive, but
>> it is also perfectly normal for the students to be distracted
>> by this normal activity, even if it's not terribly noisy.
>> So, I think the distraction is a legitimate concern, not
>> being "precious," even though I'm sure Chookie hasn't
>> been letting her toddler run totally amok in the classroom.
>> I have a toddler, and I don't think there's any way
>> I could keep her sufficiently contained in such a
>> class that she wouldn't be a legitimate distraction
>> to the other kids. Heck, when she got to be that
>> age I stopped taking her in to piano lessons even
>> though my kids have private lessons and are older
>> because there was just no way that she wouldn't
>> be to much of a distraction, no matter how many great
>> toys and books or whatever I brought along to keep
>> her occupied--and there's nobody there but my own
>> kids and the teacher to be affected by her behavior!
>>
> I guess this is the source of our disagreement..... what we each consider to
> be distracting.
> I'm quite sure that teacher found Chookie's toddler distracting ... hence
> her saying something to Chookie.
> Personally I don't think its so distracting, but I'm not that teacher
> teaching that class ..... (but I do take storytime /singing and dancing once
> a week for about 20-30 under 4's .... plus their parent / carer ... and its
> not the kids that I find distracting ... its the adults talking at the back
> !) Its not the same, but perhaps you see where I am coming from?

I think so. I'm just a stickler for that sort of
thing. I don't think the adults should be chattering
in the back, either ;-) Personally, I am very focused
and can manage regardless of distractions (good thing,
given my life and the things I need to get done in the
situations I need to accomplish them). Nevertheless, there
are many people who are not able to focus like that, and it
is genuinely a problem for them to have such distractions.
Even when others are able to focus despite the distraction,
I just don't think it's appropriate to cause the
distractions in a classroom. I think that the teacher
and students deserve as close to a distraction-free
environment as possible. I am absolutely a stickler
for that in the classes my kids are in. The one thing
that will cause me to yank them out of the class
faster than you can blink is if they start doing
anything to disrupt someone else's ability to learn
to the limit of their ability. Maybe the other kids
are serious and maybe they're not, but it's not my
or my kids' business to get in the way of their
learning--and it drives me nuts when others are
cavalier about it and allow their kids to get away
with being distracting. Little distractions here
and there add up quickly.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Michelle J. Haines

May 31st 06, 04:31 AM

FlowerGirl wrote:
>
> I'm sorry - I'm not sure what an EMT is.

Emergency Medical Technician. People who work on ambulances. There
are three kinds, Basic, Intermediate, and Paramedic.

Michelle
Flutist
EMT-B

Welches

May 31st 06, 12:25 PM

"Penny Gaines" > wrote in message
...
> Caledonia wrote:
>> Penny Gaines wrote:
>>
>>
>>>In Brirish English, a hallway has that element of a passage route
>>>which is missing from "hall" - which could be almost anything from
>>>a building to a minute room - and also from "waiting area".
>>
>>
>> Is a 'minute room' a very small waiting room?
>>
>> (I confess, I thought of one of those No-Tell Motel rooms .....)
>>
>> Caledonia
>>
>
> "Minute" as in very very small, perhaps 1 metre by 2 metres
> (or 3 feet by 6 feet) or even smaller. I'm thinking of a room
> big enough for two doors leading off, but not neccessarily with
> room for the doors to both open in to the room.
>
Not minute as in hours, minutes, seconds, but mine-ute definition tiny! :-)
Debbie

Rosalie B.

May 31st 06, 01:00 PM

Penny Gaines > wrote:
>Caledonia wrote:
>> Penny Gaines wrote:
>>
>>>In Brirish English, a hallway has that element of a passage route
>>>which is missing from "hall" - which could be almost anything from
>>>a building to a minute room - and also from "waiting area".
>>
>> Is a 'minute room' a very small waiting room?
>>
>> (I confess, I thought of one of those No-Tell Motel rooms .....)
>>
>> Caledonia
>>
>"Minute" as in very very small, perhaps 1 metre by 2 metres
>(or 3 feet by 6 feet) or even smaller. I'm thinking of a room
>big enough for two doors leading off, but not neccessarily with
>room for the doors to both open in to the room.

So it is pronounced with an emphasis on the U, right?

>mi·nute (m-OO nt, -nOOyt, m-)
>adj.
>
> 1. Exceptionally small; tiny. See Synonyms at small.
> 2. Beneath notice; insignificant.
> 3. Characterized by careful scrutiny and close examination: held a minute inspection of the grounds.

Is "minute room" an actual defined term in the UK? If so, I don't
think we have any US equivalent.

To me (in the US) a hallway and a hall are synonyms. No difference
between them, although hall is used more often. Is that different for
you?

The online dictionary says that a
"hallway" is
>n.
>
> 1. A corridor in a building.
> 2. An entrance hall.
where the sense would be a way to get to the hall I think

While a
>hall n.
>
> 1. A corridor or passageway in a building.
> 2. A large entrance room or vestibule in a building; a lobby.
> 3.
> 1. A building for public gatherings or entertainments.
> 2. The large room in which such events are held.
> 4. A building used for the meetings, entertainments, or living quarters of a fraternity, sorority, church, or other social or religious organization.
> 5.
> 1. A building belonging to a school, college, or university that provides classroom, dormitory, or dining facilities.
> 2. A large room in such a building.
> 3. The group of students using such a building: The entire hall stayed up late studying.
> 4. Chiefly British. A meal served in such a building.
> 6. The main house on a landed estate.
> 7.
> 1. The castle or house of a medieval monarch or noble.
> 2. The principal room in such a castle or house, used for dining, entertaining, and sleeping.

In this case we are using it as in #1 or in the sense of

>corridor
> 1. A narrow hallway, passageway, or gallery, often with rooms or apartments opening onto it.

Ericka Kammerer

May 31st 06, 01:19 PM

Rosalie B. wrote:

> To me (in the US) a hallway and a hall are synonyms. No difference
> between them, although hall is used more often. Is that different for
> you?

Actually, even in the US we do have the usage of
"hall" meaning a room--think of "VFW hall" and "renting
a hall" or something like that.

Best wishes,
Ericka

Chookie

June 1st 06, 12:07 AM

I found another way to keep a toddler quiet during a music lesson.

Go to a cafe for afternoon tea.
Toddler climbs onto stroller.
Toddler does Superman leap off stroller, head-first onto tiled floor.
He has a nice egg on his forehead and was quite subdued during the music
lesson, presumably due to headache.

This was a bit *too* lateral a solution for me :-/

Next Wed, DH will work from home and look after DS2 while DS1 and I go to
music.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Donna Metler

June 1st 06, 01:18 AM

"Chookie" > wrote in message
...
> I found another way to keep a toddler quiet during a music lesson.
>
> Go to a cafe for afternoon tea.
> Toddler climbs onto stroller.
> Toddler does Superman leap off stroller, head-first onto tiled floor.
> He has a nice egg on his forehead and was quite subdued during the music
> lesson, presumably due to headache.
>
> This was a bit *too* lateral a solution for me :-/
>
>
> Next Wed, DH will work from home and look after DS2 while DS1 and I go to
> music.
>
Oh, dear! Poor baby!!!

Definitely NOT an ideal way to keep a child quiet during music class! Does
the studio at least stock ice packs and other first aide supplies? (We
do-with babies and toddlers having classes on site, we have unfortunate
clunks far too often).

> --
> Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
> (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
>
> "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You
may
> start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
> Kerry Cue

Ericka Kammerer

June 1st 06, 01:46 AM

Chookie wrote:
> I found another way to keep a toddler quiet during a music lesson.
>
> Go to a cafe for afternoon tea.
> Toddler climbs onto stroller.
> Toddler does Superman leap off stroller, head-first onto tiled floor.
> He has a nice egg on his forehead and was quite subdued during the music
> lesson, presumably due to headache.
>
> This was a bit *too* lateral a solution for me :-/

I'll say! I mean, I'm all for thinking outside
the box, but I think you took that one a little too far ;-)

> Next Wed, DH will work from home and look after DS2 while DS1 and I go to
> music.

Here's hoping it makes for a more pleasant class
for you as well! Sometimes it's really nice not to have
to multitask and to be able to focus on enjoying the music
with just one child ;-)

Best wishes,
Ericka

Barbara

June 1st 06, 01:53 AM

Chookie wrote:
> I found another way to keep a toddler quiet during a music lesson.
>
> Go to a cafe for afternoon tea.
> Toddler climbs onto stroller.
> Toddler does Superman leap off stroller, head-first onto tiled floor.
> He has a nice egg on his forehead and was quite subdued during the music
> lesson, presumably due to headache.
>
> This was a bit *too* lateral a solution for me :-/
>
Oh, good heavens! How is the little munchkin doing? Isn't amazing how
they move at glacial speed when its something YOU want them to do, but
at the speed of light when its something dangerous?

> Next Wed, DH will work from home and look after DS2 while DS1 and I go to
> music.
>
Sounds like a plan! Here's hoping that you and DS1 have a wonderful
time together (and DS2 has fun with his Daddy)!

Barbara

Rosalie B.

June 1st 06, 02:32 AM

Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

>Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>> To me (in the US) a hallway and a hall are synonyms. No difference
>> between them, although hall is used more often. Is that different for
>> you?
>
> Actually, even in the US we do have the usage of
>"hall" meaning a room--think of "VFW hall" and "renting
>a hall" or something like that.
>
Well yes, but that is not the meaning that was meant here. The
dictionary gave 7 definitions for hall, but I thought it was pretty
clear that it was not 3-a building or room for public gatherings or
4-a building for meetings or 5-a college building or 6- the main house
on a landed estate or 7-the castle of a monarch or noble.

Chookie

June 1st 06, 11:53 AM

In article >, Banty >
wrote:

> With so little respect, due to your guess about her age, I'm surprised you're
> trusting her to teach music. (Do you think she hasn't sensed your lack of
> regard?)

Eh?

Experience counts. Should I pretend it doesn't?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

June 1st 06, 11:55 AM

In article >, Banty >
wrote:

> Banty (I'm waiting)

And what a wnderful mental picture it is. But I see several people have
answered your question.

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Chookie

June 1st 06, 12:10 PM

In article om>,
"Barbara" > wrote:

> Chookie wrote:
> > I found another way to keep a toddler quiet during a music lesson.
> >
> > Go to a cafe for afternoon tea.
> > Toddler climbs onto stroller.
> > Toddler does Superman leap off stroller, head-first onto tiled floor.
> > He has a nice egg on his forehead and was quite subdued during the music
> > lesson, presumably due to headache.
> >
> > This was a bit *too* lateral a solution for me :-/
> >
> Oh, good heavens! How is the little munchkin doing?

He's fine. He had a sleep on the way home, then slept till 8:30. We gave him
a bath and some toast, expecting him to conk out... and the little horror
partied on till midnight... and then had the cheek to wake up as usual at
6:30am!

> Isn't amazing how
> they move at glacial speed when its something YOU want them to do, but
> at the speed of light when its something dangerous?

There must be some kind of natural law about it!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

Banty

June 1st 06, 02:19 PM

In article >, Chookie
says...
>
>In article >, Banty >
>wrote:
>
>> Frankly, I'm a bit surprised, Chookie hasn't struck me as the excusifying
>> type,
>> she's very level headed - perhaps it's the alignment of the planets ;-) (I
>> hesitate to say 'the phase of the moon')
>
>LOL -- that's not applicable to me at the moment. I love lactational
>amenorrhoea! Let's say that I tend to put things in a worst-case format.
>

Maybe they've injected something into those Tim Tams...

Banty

--

[email protected]

June 2nd 06, 03:21 PM

If a child is not old enough to separate from his mom for a lesson then
a child is not old enough to take the lesson. Period. If your child is
old enough to take a lesson without you present I would find a place
that is set up so that he can do that.
I generally find that businesses promote "Mommy and me" activities as
"lessons" and they simply are not. They are fun. If they do not welcome
your younger child, you are not missing out on any important
"learning." I think you could accomplish just as much on your own at
home playing music and inviting over friends. It seems like a lot of
stress on your family for no reason.
If your older child can't separate from you for a lesson, I would
simply wait until he is old enough to do that. I deal with this a lot
as a skating teacher. A teacher who is really trying to teach cannot
compete with the presence of parents and siblings. I literally have
children toppling over because they turn to respond to their parents
and siblings who are calling out their names and waving at them during
group classes and they lose their balance. If a class is really
designed for "learning" then you should have a place to stay with your
younger child that is comfortable, appropriate and not in the same
space as the class. Some programs have windows or other ways that you
can watch and mind your young ones without worry about interrupting the
lesson.
As a parent of two boys, I can say that the most valuable music
experiences they had up until about 8 years old involved picking out
music they loved, putting it on the CD player and responding to it
however they wanted (dancing, costumes, playing drums.) At that age,
they both were ready to "learn" and have continued to enjoy lessons or
classes since then.
Chookie wrote:
> Background: DS2 is turning 1 next week (he is toddling now), and DS1 is 5.
>
> DS1 attends a music lesson after school each week. We drive there, have
> afternoon tea (a necessity), go to the 45-min class, and by the time we get
> home it's nearly 6pm. The class is a group of 4 kids, involving dancing,
> singing, actions, listening activities, learning to read music, and playing
> the keyboard. It is great fun and DS1 enjoys it very much. Parental
> participation/presence is a requirement.
>
> The problem is that DS2 is a busy little boy who likes wandering around the
> room and doing stuff. It does not help that this room seems to be the one
> that people put junk in. I bring toys, but DS2 wants to be more active. The
> music teacher complained two weeks ago that DS2 was distracting, and I have
> been trying all along, but she complained to me again today. Can anyone think
> of anything to do, apart from nailing him to the floor?
>
> I don't really have any spare relatives that I can leave him with. Dad lives
> in the same suburb as the class but is legally blind and not great with
> babies. My ILs live near our home, but I would have to drop him at 2:30 and
> pick him up at 6pm, a time that would disrupt their regular routine and is
> rather long -- I would feel like I was imposing on them too much.
>
> The teacher's suggestion is for me to play with him in the hallway, but (a)
> I'm not sure that the manager would approve and (b) the hall has not one, but
> *two* ungated stairwells (the school is above a shop). I'm a bit at a loss.
>
> <vent> I think my toddler is much less distracting than the other little boy
> in the class. He is only 4 and manifestly lacks the concentration to be there
> -- goodness knows why he isn't in with the preschoolers! DS2 doesn't talk
> over the teacher, jump up and down and jostle the other children when they are
> dancing. I make sure he doesn't! </vent>
>
> --
> Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
> (Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)
>
> "Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
> start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
> Kerry Cue

Ericka Kammerer

June 2nd 06, 04:00 PM

wrote:
> If a child is not old enough to separate from his mom for a lesson then
> a child is not old enough to take the lesson. Period.

Huh? There are *lots* of classes out there that are
*designed* for parent and child to do together. What's wrong
with that? Chookie isn't in the class because her child
can't separate. She's in the class with him because it's
a class designed for parent-child interaction.

> I generally find that businesses promote "Mommy and me" activities as
> "lessons" and they simply are not. They are fun.

So? What's wrong with that? She seems quite
clear on what he's learning in this class, and she and
he are fine with it and like the class. Is that not
enough? Yes, she's got a challenge dealing with the
toddler, and if she can't find another solution it might
be the case that it's too hard for her to do a mommy-and-me
class at this stage, but that doesn't mean that there's no
value in those classes.

Best wishes,
Ericka

dragonlady

June 2nd 06, 04:10 PM

In article >,
Ericka Kammerer > wrote:

> wrote:
> > If a child is not old enough to separate from his mom for a lesson then
> > a child is not old enough to take the lesson. Period.
>
> Huh? There are *lots* of classes out there that are
> *designed* for parent and child to do together. What's wrong
> with that? Chookie isn't in the class because her child
> can't separate. She's in the class with him because it's
> a class designed for parent-child interaction.
>
> > I generally find that businesses promote "Mommy and me" activities as
> > "lessons" and they simply are not. They are fun.
>
> So? What's wrong with that? She seems quite
> clear on what he's learning in this class, and she and
> he are fine with it and like the class. Is that not
> enough? Yes, she's got a challenge dealing with the
> toddler, and if she can't find another solution it might
> be the case that it's too hard for her to do a mommy-and-me
> class at this stage, but that doesn't mean that there's no
> value in those classes.
>
> Best wishes,
> Ericka

I had few opportunities to do "mommy and me" classes with my kids. (I
worked full time when my oldest was born, and by the time I wasn't
working full time she was three and had infant twin siblings. I didn't
have child care -- and wasn't willing to take the classes in the
evenings when DH was home -- so didn't do them with her. Then, with the
twins, I tried onr or two, but found that they were not set up well to
deal with one mom/two toddlers. All three of us got more aggravated
than anything.)

But I did watch several, to get ideas. It isn't true that NO learning
takes place -- it IS true that they are different from classes designed
just for kids. Some of the learning is for the parents: how to teach
your kids things, for example. Some is for the kids. And even if they
were JUST for fun, I don't see that as a problem. Some of life ought to
be just for fun!

--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

Jeanne

June 2nd 06, 10:24 PM

wrote:
> If a child is not old enough to separate from his mom for a lesson then
> a child is not old enough to take the lesson. Period. If your child is
> old enough to take a lesson without you present I would find a place
> that is set up so that he can do that.

That's your opinion but many people like mommy and me classes and find
them effective for many activities (e.g., music, swimming, even
ice-skating!)

> I generally find that businesses promote "Mommy and me" activities as
> "lessons" and they simply are not. They are fun.

And the problem is?

> If your older child can't separate from you for a lesson, I would
> simply wait until he is old enough to do that. I deal with this a lot
> as a skating teacher. A teacher who is really trying to teach cannot
> compete with the presence of parents and siblings. I

That's absurd. Even for ice-skating. DD and I took a modified mommy
and me skating class when she was about 3 years old. I was in the adult
class and she was in the child class but on the ice at the same time.
It *was* fun and she learned how to skate. She definitely felt more
comfortable seeing me on the ice and not sitting in the stands, behind
the plexiglass.

Jeanne

Donna Metler

June 3rd 06, 03:50 AM

"Jeanne" > wrote in message
. ..
> wrote:
> > If a child is not old enough to separate from his mom for a lesson then
> > a child is not old enough to take the lesson. Period. If your child is
> > old enough to take a lesson without you present I would find a place
> > that is set up so that he can do that.
>
> That's your opinion but many people like mommy and me classes and find
> them effective for many activities (e.g., music, swimming, even
> ice-skating!)
>
Actually, for music, a parent-involvement format is one of the most
effective methods of instruction for young children, especially in
instrumental instruction. Posture, hand position, etc is extremely
important, and while older children can often self-correct between lessons,
young children can't. Even for older children it makes a big difference if
the parent takes an active vs passive role in encouraging good practice
habits (which does not mean forcing or bribing a child to practice).

Usually, parent participation moves from active participation to more
passive participation where the parent is expected to assist if needed,
watch, and take over the monitoring role at home as the child progresses,
but usually the child won't come to a lesson without the parent expected to
be actively present and learning until 8-9 yrs old. If anything, classes for
preschool/early elementary children without parents present are more likely
to be fun playtime and less likely to involve focused instruction. You will
not have children learning piano or violin in a kindergarten music class
without parents present, for example.

> > I generally find that businesses promote "Mommy and me" activities as
> > "lessons" and they simply are not. They are fun.
>
> And the problem is?
>
A lot of learning takes place through fun for children 0-7. In fact, I would
argue that if it's not fun for the child, the child isn't learning-and if
it's not fun for the parent, normally the child won't get a chance to learn.

> > If your older child can't separate from you for a lesson, I would
> > simply wait until he is old enough to do that. I deal with this a lot
> > as a skating teacher. A teacher who is really trying to teach cannot
> > compete with the presence of parents and siblings. I
>
If a class is designed as a parent-child class, the teacher is not competing
with the parent-rather, the parent is a valued, vital part of the class. I
do agree that it is difficult to compete with siblings who aren't active
participants in a class, which only occurs if the siblings are in the same
age group or if it's a multi-age class.

If a class is not designed as a parent-child class, then yes, a parent can
be a distraction. However, that isn't the case for the OP, nor is it the
case for most music classes for children below the age of 8 or so outside a
school setting.

> That's absurd. Even for ice-skating. DD and I took a modified mommy
> and me skating class when she was about 3 years old. I was in the adult
> class and she was in the child class but on the ice at the same time.
> It *was* fun and she learned how to skate. She definitely felt more
> comfortable seeing me on the ice and not sitting in the stands, behind
> the plexiglass.
>
>
> Jeanne