Sullen teen [vent long after the fact]

[Rosalie B.]

This is a moot point now.

I'm going through things and throwing them out. I have to clear out
my mom's house, so I'm going to have to make room for more furniture
in my house. Therefore, I have to get rid of some of mine because
about 5 years ago we sold the city house where we went to work from
before we retired, and a lot of that furniture came down to this
house. So this house is stuffed.

Anyway, in going through one of my chests (hanging stuff on one side
and drawers in the other) which we bought when we moved in here
because there were no bedroom closets (and since then dh has made
closets in all the rooms so I don't need it anymore and am giving it
away), I went through a bunch of newspaper clippings and letters. I
found a letter from my mom written at the time that she was traveling
with my second child. (She took each of my children on a trip abroad
when they were in middle school)

This was the daughter that I spoke of who would rather pass out than
do what she didn't want to do. She was the one who made me see that
spanking wasn't the way to go (because back in my day, that was the
default punishment). She would say "It didn't hurt" (even when we
both knew that it did), and go on doing the prohibited them.

The letter my mom wrote really hurt me. I don't know what to do about
that, because my mom is dead, and my daughter has grown up to be a
fine person albeit easily bored and somewhat hyper-active even as an
adult.

This is part of what she wrote:

"You cannot just tell children.. that they should behave -- you have
to constantly live good manners all the time --you are not raising
animals, but children who are going to have to go out and meet the
world with finesse and aplomb. Her manners showed up for what they
were in Germany like a dash of cold water in the face. -- in contrast
to the "bitte?" and "danke schon" with every sentence. She was
getting so she could half-heartedly murmur these words...she's no
longer a cute little girl to get by -- she's a nice looking big girl
-- gracious manners need to be started early so it becomes 2nd nature
and they are not self-conscious over it -- and you have to set the
example!"

"During the tour I had to be constantly on guard that something wasn't
done or said by her that would be unflattering to her -- never the
same thing twice to tell her about -- just a general lack of
sensitivity to anything that wasn't what she wanted. And when she
isn't pleased about the turn of events she looks so ugly and sullen --
and I don't believe I have ever heard her apologize or say she was
sorry.. when you stumble over someone's feet or -- it takes practice.
All she can say is "yes" - "no." I have a very difficult time getting
her to add "thank you" -- and to have to remind a person her age is
very embarrassing, to me -- and should be to her, and certainly to her
family background... And the way she says "yes" "no" is also not
acceptable - it is abrupt and sounds snippy, whether it is meant that
way or not."

"The people on the tour were very nice to her, if she knew how to be
gracious, she would have a much happier time I think. They were very
complimentary... she needs practice in how to accept compliments --
how about trying this at home with all of you and teaching them how to
made polite replies -- and remember it is not just the words, but the
tone of voice that also counts.... courtesy at home is important --
don't brush them off as if they are a nuisance and in your way when
busy -- take time to explain what the problem is.."

"...you hold the doors open for older people, pick things up for them
if they drop them, you help them on with their coat -- not just me,
but anyone ..having trouble. Many little courtesies that should be
just second nature, I found never occurred to her. I was really
shocked..."

"I know your attitude toward others and behavior toward others is very
important. And how your children behave is a reflection on you as
well as them."

My mom never had a difficult child (except maybe for me) to raise.
But I think that what hurt me most was that she seems to blame me for
my daughter's behavior as if I did NOT model appropriate behavior.

In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
this letter. What do you think?

[bizby40]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept
> good
> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not
> keep
> this letter. What do you think?

I think you should definitely get rid of it. There's no point in
keeping something that gives you pain. As for the things your mom
said, don't take them to heart. People are bound and determined to
blame the parents for anything the child does, and grandparents can be
more critical than strangers. Let it go.

Bizby

[Banty]

In article >, Rosalie B. says...
>
>
>This is a moot point now.
>
>I'm going through things and throwing them out. I have to clear out
>my mom's house, so I'm going to have to make room for more furniture
>in my house. Therefore, I have to get rid of some of mine because
>about 5 years ago we sold the city house where we went to work from
>before we retired, and a lot of that furniture came down to this
>house. So this house is stuffed.
>
>Anyway, in going through one of my chests (hanging stuff on one side
>and drawers in the other) which we bought when we moved in here
>because there were no bedroom closets (and since then dh has made
>closets in all the rooms so I don't need it anymore and am giving it
>away), I went through a bunch of newspaper clippings and letters. I
>found a letter from my mom written at the time that she was traveling
>with my second child. (She took each of my children on a trip abroad
>when they were in middle school)
>
>This was the daughter that I spoke of who would rather pass out than
>do what she didn't want to do. She was the one who made me see that
>spanking wasn't the way to go (because back in my day, that was the
>default punishment). She would say "It didn't hurt" (even when we
>both knew that it did), and go on doing the prohibited them.
>
>The letter my mom wrote really hurt me. I don't know what to do about
>that, because my mom is dead, and my daughter has grown up to be a
>fine person albeit easily bored and somewhat hyper-active even as an
>adult.
>
>This is part of what she wrote:
>
>"You cannot just tell children.. that they should behave -- you have
>to constantly live good manners all the time --you are not raising
>animals, but children who are going to have to go out and meet the
>world with finesse and aplomb. Her manners showed up for what they
>were in Germany like a dash of cold water in the face. -- in contrast
>to the "bitte?" and "danke schon" with every sentence. She was
>getting so she could half-heartedly murmur these words...she's no
>longer a cute little girl to get by -- she's a nice looking big girl
>-- gracious manners need to be started early so it becomes 2nd nature
>and they are not self-conscious over it -- and you have to set the
>example!"
>
>"During the tour I had to be constantly on guard that something wasn't
>done or said by her that would be unflattering to her -- never the
>same thing twice to tell her about -- just a general lack of
>sensitivity to anything that wasn't what she wanted. And when she
>isn't pleased about the turn of events she looks so ugly and sullen --
>and I don't believe I have ever heard her apologize or say she was
>sorry.. when you stumble over someone's feet or -- it takes practice.
>All she can say is "yes" - "no." I have a very difficult time getting
>her to add "thank you" -- and to have to remind a person her age is
>very embarrassing, to me -- and should be to her, and certainly to her
>family background... And the way she says "yes" "no" is also not
>acceptable - it is abrupt and sounds snippy, whether it is meant that
>way or not."
>
>"The people on the tour were very nice to her, if she knew how to be
>gracious, she would have a much happier time I think. They were very
>complimentary... she needs practice in how to accept compliments --
>how about trying this at home with all of you and teaching them how to
>made polite replies -- and remember it is not just the words, but the
>tone of voice that also counts.... courtesy at home is important --
>don't brush them off as if they are a nuisance and in your way when
>busy -- take time to explain what the problem is.."
>
>"...you hold the doors open for older people, pick things up for them
>if they drop them, you help them on with their coat -- not just me,
>but anyone ..having trouble. Many little courtesies that should be
>just second nature, I found never occurred to her. I was really
>shocked..."
>
>"I know your attitude toward others and behavior toward others is very
>important. And how your children behave is a reflection on you as
>well as them."
>
>My mom never had a difficult child (except maybe for me) to raise.
>But I think that what hurt me most was that she seems to blame me for
>my daughter's behavior as if I did NOT model appropriate behavior.
>
>In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
>records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
>this letter. What do you think?
>

A sullen junior-high aged girl? Oh my something must be terribly, um, ordinary
:)

I'd toss the letter, but I'm not particularly sentimental..

It's only fairly recently (as in, three or four decades) that we've gotten away
from the "tabula rasa" idea - that children are blank slates to be written on by
their parents and other influences. My mother would often use the word "mold",
as in "we're trying to mold you into a happy and productive woman".

As to her propensity to offer her opinion no matter if it would hurt or help - I
think you've already told us about that trait. But some of this is how her
generation looked at childrearing.

Banty

[Caledonia]

Rosalie B. wrote:
> This is a moot point now.
>
> I'm going through things and throwing them out. I have to clear out
> my mom's house, so I'm going to have to make room for more furniture
> in my house. Therefore, I have to get rid of some of mine because
> about 5 years ago we sold the city house where we went to work from
> before we retired, and a lot of that furniture came down to this
> house. So this house is stuffed.
>
> Anyway, in going through one of my chests (hanging stuff on one side
> and drawers in the other) which we bought when we moved in here
> because there were no bedroom closets (and since then dh has made
> closets in all the rooms so I don't need it anymore and am giving it
> away), I went through a bunch of newspaper clippings and letters. I
> found a letter from my mom written at the time that she was traveling
> with my second child. (She took each of my children on a trip abroad
> when they were in middle school)
>
> This was the daughter that I spoke of who would rather pass out than
> do what she didn't want to do. She was the one who made me see that
> spanking wasn't the way to go (because back in my day, that was the
> default punishment). She would say "It didn't hurt" (even when we
> both knew that it did), and go on doing the prohibited them.
>
> The letter my mom wrote really hurt me. I don't know what to do about
> that, because my mom is dead, and my daughter has grown up to be a
> fine person albeit easily bored and somewhat hyper-active even as an
> adult.
>
> This is part of what she wrote:
>
> "You cannot just tell children.. that they should behave -- you have
> to constantly live good manners all the time --you are not raising
> animals, but children who are going to have to go out and meet the
> world with finesse and aplomb. Her manners showed up for what they
> were in Germany like a dash of cold water in the face. -- in contrast
> to the "bitte?" and "danke schon" with every sentence. She was
> getting so she could half-heartedly murmur these words...she's no
> longer a cute little girl to get by -- she's a nice looking big girl
> -- gracious manners need to be started early so it becomes 2nd nature
> and they are not self-conscious over it -- and you have to set the
> example!"
>
> "During the tour I had to be constantly on guard that something wasn't
> done or said by her that would be unflattering to her -- never the
> same thing twice to tell her about -- just a general lack of
> sensitivity to anything that wasn't what she wanted. And when she
> isn't pleased about the turn of events she looks so ugly and sullen --
> and I don't believe I have ever heard her apologize or say she was
> sorry.. when you stumble over someone's feet or -- it takes practice.
> All she can say is "yes" - "no." I have a very difficult time getting
> her to add "thank you" -- and to have to remind a person her age is
> very embarrassing, to me -- and should be to her, and certainly to her
> family background... And the way she says "yes" "no" is also not
> acceptable - it is abrupt and sounds snippy, whether it is meant that
> way or not."
>
> "The people on the tour were very nice to her, if she knew how to be
> gracious, she would have a much happier time I think. They were very
> complimentary... she needs practice in how to accept compliments --
> how about trying this at home with all of you and teaching them how to
> made polite replies -- and remember it is not just the words, but the
> tone of voice that also counts.... courtesy at home is important --
> don't brush them off as if they are a nuisance and in your way when
> busy -- take time to explain what the problem is.."
>
> "...you hold the doors open for older people, pick things up for them
> if they drop them, you help them on with their coat -- not just me,
> but anyone ..having trouble. Many little courtesies that should be
> just second nature, I found never occurred to her. I was really
> shocked..."
>
> "I know your attitude toward others and behavior toward others is very
> important. And how your children behave is a reflection on you as
> well as them."
>
> My mom never had a difficult child (except maybe for me) to raise.
> But I think that what hurt me most was that she seems to blame me for
> my daughter's behavior as if I did NOT model appropriate behavior.
>
> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
> this letter. What do you think?

Another vote for 'toss' -- I've been in a situation where my siblings
encountered letters my grandmother had written about us, to our mom.
When cleaning out our parents' house, it was not quite a party to come
across some of those, as it both changed our opinion of our
grandmother, and made us realize how sad -- in a derivative way -- we'd
made our mom at times. (And we're talking 'times' like, way back in the
50's). Toss, toss, toss.

Caledonia

[Ericka Kammerer]

Rosalie B. wrote:

> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
> this letter. What do you think?

Seems like everyone is voting for "toss," but I'm
not so sure that's what I'd do. I think it would depend
on my goal. If I were just keeping a couple of really
sentimental letters, this probably wouldn't make the "top
five" cut. But, since it sounds like maybe you're keeping
nearly everything, as if to preserve some kind of history
or record, I might be inclined not to censor. We all have
our moments where we're less than we should be, and
sometimes those reveal something interesting.
If it's hurtful to you, maybe it's not worth
the emotional cost to save it. It's hard for me to
know how I'd feel in your shoes, but at least with my
own mother, I do recognize that there are times she's
more critical than she should be, but I just see it
as part and parcel of who she is and don't feel a need
to take those things personally. Usually, there are
bits and pieces of the criticisms that are rooted in
some truth, and I try to take something constructive
out of those, but she doesn't have complete information
to base those criticisms on, so I have to also discount
some of what she says because it simply comes from her
own lack of knowledge or experience.
You've said many times in the past that there
were ways in which your mother was critical and
manipulative. That was a part of her, and a part of
your relationship, though I'm sure the big picture
was so much more than that. This letter reflects
that part of the relationship that wasn't ideal by
any means, but it doesn't change anything about your
relationship, really, and it doesn't change the person
she was (or the person you are).
I don't think there's any harm in keeping the
letter, and I see some virtue in keeping a complete
picture, warts and all. And if it were me, getting
rid of the letter wouldn't change anything, since I'd
already read it and the memory would stick even if the
letter were gone. What picture do you want to leave
for someone clearing out *your* things? A cleaned up
picture of your relationship with your mother, or one
that includes the good, the bad, and the ugly? I think
it's your right to choose either, and I don't think it's
bad to choose to leave a cleaned up version (most of us
do that to some degree anyway). I just also think that
if you're saving almost all the other stuff, it's not
bad to save this either, if it wouldn't nag at you that
the letter was still in existence.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[BarbL]

Rosalie B. wrote:
> This is a moot point now.

> My mom never had a difficult child (except maybe for me) to raise.
> But I think that what hurt me most was that she seems to blame me for
> my daughter's behavior as if I did NOT model appropriate behavior.
>
> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
> this letter. What do you think?
>

I'd keep it, if nothing else but to remind me not to be that
way. My Mom was often overly critical of my children,
especially the "difficult" one who is no longer "difficult".
I try to remember her jabs as things I don't want to do.

Good luck with your decision.

BarbL

[Jen]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
>> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
>> this letter. What do you think?

And if it were me, getting
> rid of the letter wouldn't change anything, since I'd
> already read it and the memory would stick even if the
> letter were gone.

The other thing is, your memory might mess it up, and start to remember it
as being even worse than it was. Looking at it without the emotions, it's
probably not THAT bad. It might be useful to look at it every now and again
to check your memory didn't play tricks on you, and your mother didn't say
extremely nasty things.

Jen

[Rosalie B.]

"Jen" > wrote:

>
>"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Rosalie B. wrote:
>>
>>> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
>>> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
>>> this letter. What do you think?
>
>>And if it were me, getting
>> rid of the letter wouldn't change anything, since I'd
>> already read it and the memory would stick even if the
>> letter were gone.
>
I'm somewhat concerned that dd#2 would be upset by the letter if she
knew of its existence.

>The other thing is, your memory might mess it up, and start to remember it
>as being even worse than it was. Looking at it without the emotions, it's
>probably not THAT bad. It might be useful to look at it every now and again
>to check your memory didn't play tricks on you, and your mother didn't say
>extremely nasty things.
>
She wrote the letter in 1977 and I didn't remember it at all when I
found it in 2006, although I obviously got it since it was here in my
house. My mom would have considered it unladylike (the ultimate to be
avoided) to be nasty. And I don't think she really meant to be
hurtful. She just thought that I needed to do better at parenting and
that she was the one to give me a heads up. She didn't apparently
consider that if I was not doing an adequate job, that it reflected
back on her.

She continued as dd#2 grew up to give me advice like that although
usually it was verbal. She continued telling me how dd#2 should deal
with the great grandchildren (my grandchildren and dd#2's children).
She thought that a swat on the rear end would take care of a lot of
problems, and I had to run interference between her and dd#2.

All of my other children went on trips with her and all of them were
either better behaved or dissembled better - dd#2 wore her emotions on
her sleeve, and was more easily hurt and distressed. DD#1 could do
no wrong (and she was the only one allowed to drive my mom's car), and
dd#3 was a nice polite child who wrote thank-you letters immediately
and at the drop of a hat.

My youngest niece also managed the trip with my mom OK, but my oldest
niece's behavior was such (and my oldest niece had graduated from
college when she went) that my mom disinherited her for about 30
years. She reconsidered and changed her will only about 3 years ago.

[Ericka Kammerer]

Rosalie B. wrote:
> "Jen" > wrote:
>
>> "Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
>> . ..
>>> Rosalie B. wrote:
>>>
>>>> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
>>>> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
>>>> this letter. What do you think?
>>> And if it were me, getting
>>> rid of the letter wouldn't change anything, since I'd
>>> already read it and the memory would stick even if the
>>> letter were gone.
> I'm somewhat concerned that dd#2 would be upset by the letter if she
> knew of its existence.

Is your daughter unaware of this aspect of your
relationship with your mother? My mother and grandmother
were very close, and I was close with both of them. I
know their relationship wasn't always peachy--I come
from a long line of stubborn women ;-) So, if I came across
a letter like that, I would first likely realize that I
*had* been a snot at that age (hopefully I'd have outgrown
it by then ;-) ), and second, I would realize that one
somewhat snarky letter, however ladylike the language,
wasn't the be all and end all of the relationship.
BUT, maybe your daughter has a temperament
that wouldn't react well to seeing that letter. I'm
sure there are situations where it would be best just
to get rid of it.
Have you ever asked your daughter about what
*she* recalls of that trip and what she thought of
her relationship with her grandmother at that time?
If she thought it was a fabulous trip, the highlight
of her youth, and a special bonding time with her
grandmother who doted on her every word and action,
maybe you don't want to leave anything around that
bursts that harmless bubble. If, on the other hand,
her recollection of the trip includes some of the
same back-and-forth over manners as described in
the letter, maybe there isn't really a bubble to
burst.

Best wishes,
Ericka

[deja.blues]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
>
> This is a moot point now.

If you toss this one, you have to toss them all. History is what it is,
warts and all, why try to sanitize it?
That's what your mom saw and felt at the time.

[deja.blues]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
I see some virtue in keeping a complete
> picture, warts and all.

Lol..I responded to the OP before I read your reply. Warts and all!!

[-L.]

deja.blues wrote:
> "Rosalie B." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > This is a moot point now.
>
> If you toss this one, you have to toss them all. History is what it is,
> warts and all, why try to sanitize it?
> That's what your mom saw and felt at the time.

Yep, and she was human, as well all are. This letter shows a lot of
humanity. I kept everything from my Mom, even the letters I had
written to her, from her house. I couldn't get enough.

-L.

[Jeff]

"Ericka Kammerer" > wrote in message
. ..
> Rosalie B. wrote:
>
>> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
>> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
>> this letter. What do you think?
>
> Seems like everyone is voting for "toss," but I'm
> not so sure that's what I'd do. I think it would depend
> on my goal.

I'd keep it, too. It is a reminder that your mom had feelings and was human,
too. It also shows that your mom had tolerance for behavior that she really
didn't like.

You're mom was what she was. The good, bad and the ugly. We all are. This
was as much part of her as any of the other letters you want to keep.

Jeff

[Caledonia]

deja.blues wrote:
> "Rosalie B." > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > This is a moot point now.
>
> If you toss this one, you have to toss them all. History is what it is,
> warts and all, why try to sanitize it?
> That's what your mom saw and felt at the time.

That's true -- but I've found that reading old letters third-hand
(without all of the context, as all of the writers were long dead) can
at times be hurtful, even unintentionally.

I don't agree that if you toss one you have to toss them all -- I've
kept many things my Dad wrote prior to dementia, but didn't feel
compelled to keep a record of his growing paranoia -- perhaps I'll be
giving my kids an unfair picture of their grandfather (deceased prior
to their births)...but I'm not seeing that as a great big effort to
'sanitize' his life. (In fact, I think he'd be appalled if he were to
have read what he wrote during his decline...)

Caledonia

[0tterbot]

"Rosalie B." > wrote in message
...
>
> This is a moot point now.
>
> I'm going through things and throwing them out. I have to clear out
> my mom's house, so I'm going to have to make room for more furniture
> in my house. Therefore, I have to get rid of some of mine because
> about 5 years ago we sold the city house where we went to work from
> before we retired, and a lot of that furniture came down to this
> house. So this house is stuffed.
>
> Anyway, in going through one of my chests (hanging stuff on one side
> and drawers in the other) which we bought when we moved in here
> because there were no bedroom closets (and since then dh has made
> closets in all the rooms so I don't need it anymore and am giving it
> away), I went through a bunch of newspaper clippings and letters. I
> found a letter from my mom written at the time that she was traveling
> with my second child. (She took each of my children on a trip abroad
> when they were in middle school)
>
> This was the daughter that I spoke of who would rather pass out than
> do what she didn't want to do. She was the one who made me see that
> spanking wasn't the way to go (because back in my day, that was the
> default punishment). She would say "It didn't hurt" (even when we
> both knew that it did), and go on doing the prohibited them.
>
> The letter my mom wrote really hurt me. I don't know what to do about
> that, because my mom is dead, and my daughter has grown up to be a
> fine person albeit easily bored and somewhat hyper-active even as an
> adult.
>
> This is part of what she wrote:
(snip)
> My mom never had a difficult child (except maybe for me) to raise.
> But I think that what hurt me most was that she seems to blame me for
> my daughter's behavior as if I did NOT model appropriate behavior.
>
> In general I want to keep everything that my mom wrote - she kept good
> records and documented things. But I'm thinking maybe I will not keep
> this letter. What do you think?

my thinking is: if you honestly believe there will _never_ come a day when
you won't still feel offended or perhaps even able to see the funny side,
throw it out. if you think you'll eventually be able to not be bothered by
it, keep it. after all, it's a record of a few things & the way she
expressed herself is a record of "her" (as well as the other events).

as to what she said, maybe she really was giving you a passive-aggressive
roasting. otoh, maybe that's just how it sounds & was never her intention.
my own mum has a ghastly habit of _sounding like_ she is lecturing me when
in fact she's _agreeing_ with me. so if you're not sure what your mother's
intentions even were, i'd be inclined to keep it now & see if later on it
still bothers me, & decide then.
kylie