Wits end -- toddler/(no) sleep

[[email protected]]

Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
the crib, so that was no longer an option.

Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
screaming starts.

I actually can deal with this. I don't mind returning him to his
bedroom over and over, and probably 90% of the time when we lock his
door, he cries for a few minutes and then goes down. BUT he also is
waking up *multiple* times in the middle of the night and coming into
our bedroom and wanting to sleep with us. He'll climb into bed, or
stand next to me and cry, or in one extreme case wedged himself between
the mattress and the nightstand and fell asleep standing up. I tried
letting him sleep on the floor by our bed, but 5 minutes later he was
back trying to climb in. I've caved and let him in bed when I was just
too exhausted to return him to his room, which I know is part of the
problem.

Last night he had a total meltdown sometime after midnight; it took me
about 10 minutes to soothe him down and get him back to sleep, and then
he woke up again screaming and running back into our room 10 minutes
later -- DH took him back to his room and ended up locking the door,
and Micah then threw a total fit and started banging the door, hurling
himself against it, howling. I could hear the upstairs neighbor get up
and I didn't think it was fair to subject the rest of the complex to
Micah, so I ended up sleeping with him (and as a side note, I'm
replacing the futon with a real mattress -- that thing sucks!! haha).

BUT, this can't go on. Co-sleeping is not a viable option (DH can't
sleep with Micah in the bed, and since Micah spends most of the night
headbutting him and/or trying to kick him out of the bed, I can't blame
him). I can't let him have a screaming meltdown at 2 AM and wake up
the neighbors, but this is what happens when we lock his door. I don't
want to sleep in *his* bed since I think that sends the wrong message.
And we have to get this sorted out before April when #2 arrives.

Micah started daycare 1 day/week in November; he loves it, but maybe
the increased bedtime stress is part of that (the problem predates
daycare, but it does seem to have worsened). He's a great kid but(and)
very stubborn, and has always always always been challenging when it
came to sleep. My mom suggested I spend really concentrated time with
him every day -- 45 minutes with no chores, no answering the phone, no
reading, etc. -- that maybe he needs some undivided attention and is
trying to get it at bedtime. So I'm trying that today. But any other
suggestions would be appreciated; I'm tearing my hair out here. I'm
actually reconsidering co-sleeping with #2, although the thought of
getting up to nurse also makes me want to rip my hair out, and maybe
Micah would have been like this regardless of where he slept early on
(you can't spoil an infant... you can't spoil an infant...).

Sorry this is so long! I'm not concise when I'm sleep-deprived. :P

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[Penny Gaines]

wrote:
> Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
> months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
> years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
> hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
> getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
> actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
> the crib, so that was no longer an option.
[snip]

Just a quick thought: a friend of mine had a kid who woke multiple
times in the night until he was about 4yo: part of the problem was that
he was allergic to food colourings.

--
Penny Gaines
UK mum to three

[MamaLiz]

wrote:

> Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
> out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
> minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
> hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
> and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
> we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
> a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
> a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
> his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
> wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
> screaming starts.

You've probably already tried this - but does he fall asleep if
you stay with him? We do this with Em (2-1/2) - sitting
with her, not lying down with her - and she generally goes
down pretty easily. But it can occasionally be a big time
sink, so I understand folks who don't want to set the
precendent.

Conflict and distress seem to disrupt Em's sleep. If she
misbehaves before bed, she wakes up much more often
at night calling for me - it's like the distress leaks into her
dreams. If we have a peaceful time together as she falls
asleep, she's much more likely to have a quiet night.

[Pologirl]

wrote:
> Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
> out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
> minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
> hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
> and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
> we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
> a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
> a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
> his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
> wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
> screaming starts.

This is the "slippery slope" technique, where you cajole the child into
sleep. It often doesn't work. I had no patience for it either, so we
never used it. I'm not sure how to fix it after the fact, but you
might find Dr. Richard Ferber's book useful: Solve Your Child's Sleep
Problems. He is an authority on sleep, and I found the book very
readable and helpful.

FWIW, our routine: announce bedtime is near. Wait a few minutes. End
any play activity. This motivates Monkey Boy to put his toys away; he
thinks it delays bedtime! Get undressed, go potty, put on diaper
(we're in transition here) and pyjamas. Wonderful new big boy pyjamas.
If Monkey Boy has cooperated, there is time to sit on the livingroom
couch and read one book, usually with daddy. It is very low key. No
TV, no music, no side conversation, no other people, no wrestling.
Just Monkey Boy and parent sitting together and talking. Winding down.
Becoming very boring. Then go find the other parent for a kiss, get
sippy and favorite soft toy, walk to room, climb into bed, get tucked
in and kissed, parent turns light out (no nightlight) and closes the
door. During each step we remind him of the next step. That keeps him
on track. If any nonsense starts, the parent warns the routine will go
faster and/or steps will be skipped. Nonsense usually starts just
before the tuck in kiss. In that case, parent immediately starts for
the door. Rarely do we get that far. But if we do have to close the
door prematurely, we wait a brief moment then go back in and resume
exactly where we left off. Total time usually about 15 minutes.
Sometimes Monkey Boy requests ahead of time or we propose a bath or an
extra book or extra long book. Then getting ready for bed starts
earlier. Sometimes he chooses to play longer and skip the book. Then
getting ready starts later.

Going to bed is handled by just one parent, and we vary who does it.
This allows one of us to be out or entertaining company at bedtime,
with little or no upset. If I'll be out, I tell him so when I leave
and I give him an extra kiss and tell him it is his bedtime kiss in
advance.

His bedroom has no toys in it, other than a pile of stuffed animals in
the bed. It is not a playroom, it is a bedroom. He spends so little
awake time in there that most power struggles happen elsewhere. So the
bedroom is powerfully associated with peaceful sleep. And we give him
a lot of attention throughout the day. We don't increase our attention
during the bedtime ritual; we gradually withdraw it, so as bedtime
approaches there is nothing much else to do but go to bed. He is
allowed to stay awake there, and sometimes he does, talking and playing
in bed for hours!

Monkey Boy is now 2y 10mo, and has been sleeping in a regular twin bed
for 6mo.

Hope this helps. I have not forgotten the misery of nursing every 2
hours through the night, 45 minutes a time. That's how Monkey Boy
nursed, until he weaned himself at 9 months. My new baby, 2mo, almost
sleeps through the night, which is *so* wonderful for me. They are
just different children.

[-L.]

wrote:
> Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
> months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
> years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
> hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
> getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
> actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
> the crib, so that was no longer an option.
<snip>

IMO, you are making way too much fuss at bedtime. For us (DS, almost
3- has been in his own bed and room since 18 mos.) it is brush the
teeth, a story in the living room or a DVD short, then a kiss to Dad,
good night to all the parts of the house as we turn off lights
"goodnight kitchen", etc., then off for a diaper change, drink of
water - give him his lovey and then down. The entire process after
the book/DVD is about 5 minutes. If he complains, I tell him, no, it's
ni-nite time and everybody is going to sleep - "Good nite baby, I love
you!" And the door gets shut. If he cries for more than 4 minutes or
so or gets up, I go in, put him back down and repeat the goodnights.
After two times, I merely go in without saying anything and put him
down again - and repeat until he stays in bed. If he wakes during the
night, it is a diaper change, a drink and then immediately back down in
his bed - no exceptions.

Honestly, DS has gone to bed well with only one or two exceptions for
the last year and a half, with this method. I have noticed that when
he is growing a lot/eating a lot he tends to wake in the night. The
key is consistency and being calm - don't get upset, don't make a fuss
- this is how it is and everyone is going to sleep in their own beds.
And absolutely NO cosleeping - you give them an inch, they want a
mile!!

Good luck!
-L.

[Beth Kevles]

Hi --

Our son had dreadful nights until we discovered his food allergies.
Once we eliminated them, his nights became calm, and his daytime
behavior was calmer.

Common allergens that elicit these symptoms include milk protein, egg,
and artificial colors, particularly fd&c red #40.

Or it could be completely unrelated, of course ...

--Beth Kevles

http://web.mit.edu/kevles/www/nomilk.html -- a page for the milk-allergic
Disclaimer: Nothing in this message should be construed as medical
advice. Please consult with your own medical practicioner.

NOTE: No email is read at my MIT address. Use the AOL one if you would
like me to reply.

[[email protected]]

-L. wrote:
> IMO, you are making way too much fuss at bedtime.

I think you're right; part of the problem may be that this is the time
of the day that he consistently gets uninterrupted mama and daddy time,
and he wants to prolong it. I do feel badly about changing this
routine now, though -- esp. the singing/prayer in bed part, since we've
been doing this ever since he was born.

> If he complains, I tell him, no, it's
> ni-nite time and everybody is going to sleep - "Good nite baby, I love
> you!" And the door gets shut. If he cries for more than 4 minutes or
> so or gets up, I go in, put him back down and repeat the goodnights.
> After two times, I merely go in without saying anything and put him
> down again - and repeat until he stays in bed. If he wakes during the
> night, it is a diaper change, a drink and then immediately back down in
> his bed - no exceptions.

So keep on with the going in/putting him down overandoverandover, or
lock the door and let him cry?


> The
> key is consistency and being calm - don't get upset, don't make a fuss
> - this is how it is and everyone is going to sleep in their own beds.

I know both DH and I are getting upset about it, which isn't helping.

> And absolutely NO cosleeping - you give them an inch, they want a
> mile!!

That's for sure... :/ Right now he's sleeping in the hallway
(naptime) -- I put him back in his room once, and the next time he
didn't come all the way out into the living room; he just parked
himself on the hall floor and fell asleep. Not sure if I should have
just kept on putting him back in his bed?? TBH, I don't care if he
sleeps on the floor in the hallway, even at night -- I just don't want
him to sleep in my bed! That sounds pretty bad, huh... :(


> Good luck!
> -L.

Thanks, we need it.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[[email protected]]

Pologirl wrote:
> This is the "slippery slope" technique, where you cajole the child into
> sleep. It often doesn't work. I had no patience for it either, so we
> never used it. I'm not sure how to fix it after the fact, but you
> might find Dr. Richard Ferber's book useful: Solve Your Child's Sleep
> Problems. He is an authority on sleep, and I found the book very
> readable and helpful.

Thanks -- it's now on my library list! I *am* worried about how to fix
all this after the fact. I feel bad 'taking away' things we've already
given him, like mama and daddy bedtime partying. :/ Actually, it
mostly *is* low-key activity (reading, mostly) -- well, actually DH
still plays rather boisterously with him, now that I think about it.
Lots of riding on daddy's back, tackling daddy, etc. We should move
that to before dinner.

> FWIW, our routine: announce bedtime is near. Wait a few minutes. End
> any play activity.

<snip routine>
I like the announcing that bedtime is coming. I'm going to try that.

> And we give him
> a lot of attention throughout the day. We don't increase our attention
> during the bedtime ritual; we gradually withdraw it, so as bedtime
> approaches there is nothing much else to do but go to bed. He is
> allowed to stay awake there, and sometimes he does, talking and playing
> in bed for hours!

I'm going to try this, also. I know I do need to be less
distracted/trying to do other things at the same time that I'm
'playing' with him during the day.

I'd be happy in he stayed in bed playing for hours!! (as opposed to
screaming and trying to knock the door down...) :P

> Hope this helps. I have not forgotten the misery of nursing every 2
> hours through the night, 45 minutes a time. That's how Monkey Boy
> nursed, until he weaned himself at 9 months. My new baby, 2mo, almost
> sleeps through the night, which is *so* wonderful for me. They are
> just different children.

Thanks!! I"m crossing my fingers that #2 is mellow. Or will mellow out
Micah... haha.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[[email protected]]

MamaLiz wrote:
> You've probably already tried this - but does he fall asleep if
> you stay with him? We do this with Em (2-1/2) - sitting
> with her, not lying down with her - and she generally goes
> down pretty easily. But it can occasionally be a big time
> sink, so I understand folks who don't want to set the
> precendent.

Yes -- but I have a bad habit of falling asleep myself, esp. now that
I'm pregnant. He *will* go down if someone's laying with him, but then
when he wakes up and we're gone, it starts again. I can see sitting on
the chair in his room while he goes down, though; maybe that would work
better. But honestly, the time sink thing is a biggie for me. I'd get
*really* antsy sitting there for an hour or however long.

> Conflict and distress seem to disrupt Em's sleep.

Yep. Last night was particularly bad, but DH had also just gotten back
from a several-day conference, yesterday was daycare, and we were
babysitting a kid whose mom had to go to the hospital, so there was a
lot going on. I'm sure that made things worse.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[Marty Billingsley]

In article m>,
> wrote:
>
>-L. wrote:
>> IMO, you are making way too much fuss at bedtime.
>
>I think you're right; part of the problem may be that this is the time
>of the day that he consistently gets uninterrupted mama and daddy time,
>and he wants to prolong it. I do feel badly about changing this
>routine now, though -- esp. the singing/prayer in bed part, since we've
>been doing this ever since he was born.

One thing you might do if you want to stay in his room until he's
asleep (which you mentioned in another post) is to read books out
loud -- books that are interesting to you, but perhaps not so far
over the kid's head that he gets frustrated. I've been reading
"The Story of the World" (all 4 volumes) to my twins, and find it
very interesting (I keep on reading after they fall asleep). You
could sit in a chair -- not on the bed -- with a light that doesn't
shine in his direction, and read in a soft voice until he falls asleep.
That would solve the inital problem for the evening without boring
you to death.

No suggestions about what to do when he wakes up in the night -- sorry.

[enigma]

(Marty Billingsley) wrote in
:

> No suggestions about what to do when he wakes up in the
> night -- sorry.

hmm. Emily, did your son have ear infections as a
baby/toddler? is he frequently stuffy or does he snore?
my kid is 6 & he wakes every 60-90 minutes all night. i'm
taking him to an ENT to see if there is something they can do
for apnea. you might want to check with his pediatrician to
see if there might be a physical cause for his waking.
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

[Pologirl]

wrote:
> I feel bad 'taking away' things we've already
> given him, like mama and daddy bedtime partying. :/

He might not enjoy it as much as you think he does. He must be tired,
and dreading the scene that he must know is to follow! You didn't
intend Micah's bedtime ritual to include screaming fits, but that is
part of the ritual.

Anyway, you don't have to do exactly what anyone else does. The trick
is to figure out what works for your family, meaning all of you. And
consider what happens when the baby arrives; would it still work to
have mommy and daddy holding a bedtime party with Micah? Every night?


> Lots of riding on daddy's back, tackling daddy, etc. We should move
> that to before dinner.

Yes. Or plan a cool-down interval between the gymnastics and sleepy
time.


> I'd be happy in he stayed in bed playing for hours!! (as opposed to
> screaming and trying to knock the door down...) :P

We had a period where screaming and bashing his head on things was a
daily event. It can be very difficult to walk the line between
discipline and support. I know if anyone locked me inside a room I
would go ballistic. I know you feel like it is your last resort, but I
hope you soon will find other tactics that work better. One reason we
go back in almost immediately is so that Monkey Boy does not have time
to get out of bed and/or get really worked up. And if we don't have to
listen to screaming we can more easily maintain the essential
matter-of-fact, unperturbed attitude needed to quench any nonsense. As
in, nothing you can do will get a rise out of me, so you might as well
go to sleep now.


>I"m crossing my fingers that #2 is mellow.

I wouldn't say my #2 is mellow. But she does sleep far better than
Monkey Boy did, and I think her good sleep makes all the difference.
If I could go back and do it again, I would read Ferber's book much
sooner. There were several things going on with Monkey Boy that needed
adjustment. All relatively small things, but they added up to chronic
poor sleeping.

Ferber's book is not a quick fix recipe for success. To get much from
it you should expec to read it through while thinking at length about
your own situation. Then make a plan.

[Jen]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
> months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
> years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
> hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
> getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
> actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
> the crib, so that was no longer an option.


My daughter wouldn't sleep with the door closed.

Warm baths before bed can help.
Chamomile tea, or warm milk can help.
No exercise or boisterous play at least an hour before bedtime.
Plenty of exercise through the day.
No TV
Quiet reading himself or someone reads to him
Soothing music
Night light or dim light


Just a few ideas that might help


Jen

[[email protected]]

Jen wrote:
> My daughter wouldn't sleep with the door closed.
>
> Warm baths before bed can help.
> Chamomile tea, or warm milk can help.
> No exercise or boisterous play at least an hour before bedtime.
> Plenty of exercise through the day.
> No TV
> Quiet reading himself or someone reads to him
> Soothing music
> Night light or dim light

I might try leaving the door open. Tonight was another disaster. :P

I'll try the warm tea or milk. We really calmed down tonight in terms
of boisterous play, although he didn't get tons of excercise today --
I'll try to run him more ragged tomorrow (you'd think his knock-em-down
tantrums would do the trick... :P ). We don't have a TV, so that's not
an issue, and I read him books, sang him some songs, and he's got a
night light.

He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
put to bed, over and over and over.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[-L.]

wrote:
> -L. wrote:
> > IMO, you are making way too much fuss at bedtime.
>
> I think you're right; part of the problem may be that this is the time
> of the day that he consistently gets uninterrupted mama and daddy time,
> and he wants to prolong it. I do feel badly about changing this
> routine now, though -- esp. the singing/prayer in bed part, since we've
> been doing this ever since he was born.

Then I would sing and pray in the living room before you go to the
bedroom. Make the bedroom only for preparing for bed and going to
sleep.

>
> > If he complains, I tell him, no, it's
> > ni-nite time and everybody is going to sleep - "Good nite baby, I love
> > you!" And the door gets shut. If he cries for more than 4 minutes or
> > so or gets up, I go in, put him back down and repeat the goodnights.
> > After two times, I merely go in without saying anything and put him
> > down again - and repeat until he stays in bed. If he wakes during the
> > night, it is a diaper change, a drink and then immediately back down in
> > his bed - no exceptions.
>
> So keep on with the going in/putting him down overandoverandover, or
> lock the door and let him cry?
>

I put him in bed and let him cry no more than 5-7 minutes or so. I
then go back in, tell him it's time for sleep, tuck him in and go back
out. I do this continually until he sleeps - the latter times without
saying a word. I never lock the door. If he gets out of bed, I put
him back in immediately.


>
> > The
> > key is consistency and being calm - don't get upset, don't make a fuss
> > - this is how it is and everyone is going to sleep in their own beds.
>
> I know both DH and I are getting upset about it, which isn't helping.
>
> > And absolutely NO cosleeping - you give them an inch, they want a
> > mile!!
>
> That's for sure... :/ Right now he's sleeping in the hallway
> (naptime) -- I put him back in his room once, and the next time he
> didn't come all the way out into the living room; he just parked
> himself on the hall floor and fell asleep. Not sure if I should have
> just kept on putting him back in his bed??

Yes - the bedis for sleeping - not the floor, not the couch, not your
bed - his bed and his bed only.

> TBH, I don't care if he
> sleeps on the floor in the hallway, even at night -- I just don't want
> him to sleep in my bed! That sounds pretty bad, huh... :(

Not really. But you are confusing him by allowing him to get away with
sleeping elsewhere.

Just set the rules, be consistent and in a few days he will start to
sleep by himself in his bed. It works!

-L.

[[email protected]]

Pologirl wrote:
> Yes. Or plan a cool-down interval between the gymnastics and sleepy
> time.

Did that tonight...

> We had a period where screaming and bashing his head on things was a
> daily event. It can be very difficult to walk the line between
> discipline and support. I know if anyone locked me inside a room I
> would go ballistic. I know you feel like it is your last resort, but I
> hope you soon will find other tactics that work better.

Yes, he ***hates*** this. He goes apoplectic. I think he could
actually hurt himself hurling himself against the door (did this
tonight), or at the very least, damage the door. :P


One reason we
> go back in almost immediately is so that Monkey Boy does not have time
> to get out of bed and/or get really worked up. And if we don't have to
> listen to screaming we can more easily maintain the essential
> matter-of-fact, unperturbed attitude needed to quench any nonsense. As
> in, nothing you can do will get a rise out of me, so you might as well
> go to sleep now.

I tried this tonight -- not locking the door, and every time he came
out, I walked him back into his room, put him in his bed, and said
"Ni-night, I love you." 4 seconds later, he'd be out again. This went
on for an hour, with a brief intermission of him lying quietly on the
hallway floor. Then we locked him in, then he had (another) screaming
tantrum, then DH did the whole "it's time for bed blah blah blah"
10-minute routine and he's asleep now, but I'm expecting him to wake up
screaming right when we head to bed. Argh. I know this is going to
take time, but I hate it. I feel like we're going through CIO all over
again.

> Ferber's book is not a quick fix recipe for success. To get much from
> it you should expec to read it through while thinking at length about
> your own situation. Then make a plan.

I need to hear this. Thank you.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[[email protected]]

enigma wrote:
> hmm. Emily, did your son have ear infections as a
> baby/toddler? is he frequently stuffy or does he snore?
> my kid is 6 & he wakes every 60-90 minutes all night. i'm
> taking him to an ENT to see if there is something they can do
> for apnea. you might want to check with his pediatrician to
> see if there might be a physical cause for his waking.
> lee

You know, I hadn't thought of this, but DH did have really bad sleep
apnea when he was a kid, and my MIL told me that once they took out his
adenoids he was a different person (in a good way! haha). I might look
into this -- although I'm pretty convinced that at the moment, this is
more a tantrum/manipulative thing than a physical one. Not
manipulative with an evil connotation, but he's decided that he doesn't
like sleeping by himself, and he'll do whatever he can to make that not
happen. :( But in any case, that's a good idea to at least talk to
his ped.

Thanks,
Emily
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[[email protected]]

Beth Kevles wrote:
> Hi --
>
> Our son had dreadful nights until we discovered his food allergies.
> Once we eliminated them, his nights became calm, and his daytime
> behavior was calmer.
>
> Common allergens that elicit these symptoms include milk protein, egg,
> and artificial colors, particularly fd&c red #40.
>
> Or it could be completely unrelated, of course ...

I don't think it's food allergies since he doesn't have any other
symptoms -- but I *am* starting to think that he could be allergic to
his room -- the futon (which admittedly is a 3rd-hand grad school
relic) or the rug or the stuffed animals or something. Maybe he's
waking up because he gets stuffed up.

Em
mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[-L.]

wrote:
>
> He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
> put to bed, over and over and over.

I make it clear that the entire house is going to bed - even if we
aren't. I tell him Momma and Daddy are going ni-nite, Tessa (dog) is
going ni-nite, kittties are going ni-nite - we have an entire
discussion about it. I keep his room dark and just use the light from
the hallway for changing him. I talk in a low, soft voice. I hold him
gently and move him slowly. If he thinks you are up partying, he will
want to be up too! Also when I go back in to tell him to go back to
bed I tell him I'm tired and going back to bed.

Exercise during the day does help, as does a full belly - I use
slightly warm milk and a light snack such as a cracker or low-sugar
graham-cracker biscuit or cookie. No sugar after 6PM, including juice!
Absolutely no chocolate or caffeine at all, ever, either.

Good luck and be strong!
-L.

[Chookie]

In article . com>,
wrote:

> Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
> out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
> minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
> hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
> and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
> we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
> a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
> a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
> his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
> wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
> screaming starts.
>
> I actually can deal with this. I don't mind returning him to his
> bedroom over and over, and probably 90% of the time when we lock his
> door, he cries for a few minutes and then goes down. BUT he also is
> waking up *multiple* times in the middle of the night and coming into
> our bedroom and wanting to sleep with us.

I don't know if you'd want to do this, but what we do is probably quieter than
your current methods :-) DS1 is 5 and DS2 is 18mo. I BF -- DS1 still has the
occasional evening BF. Obviously if you are not BFing you would omit that
part.

We had DS1 in our room, in his cot, until he was 4. This was longer than we
had planned, but the reasons were not connected to DS1s sleeping habits.

I always fed DS1 to sleep as an infant and put him in his cot. When he woke
up for a night feed, I would bring him in to our bed for the rest of the
night. We all got a reasonable amount of sleep that way. Gradually, the
night feeds decreased. Eventually, he was just waking up for a pre-breakfast
feed, and that just became breakfast, IIRC.

When we did transition DS1 to a bed, I was still BFing him to sleep. DH
handled the bedtime routine up to that point -- bath, pyjamas, story, Bible
story, prayer. I would come in, DH would kiss us goodnight and the light
would go off and the door close. I asked DS1 what the best thing that
happened today was, then BF him to sleep.

When DS2 arrived, I often contrived to be unavailable at bedtime. Instead, DH
would lie beside him until DS1 fell asleep. These days, I still BF DS1
several nights a week, but I leave him when he's drowsy, not out. Not sure if
DH does the same or waits till he's out. DH sings instead of BFing,
apparently :-) So now DS1 can be put to bed by either parent.

This probably sounds like a big time sink. I suppose it is, but it's pleasant
time with DS1, and it doesn't go on for hours. We've never had a problem with
night waking so I can't help you wiht that (were either you or his Dad a night
waker?). It can be a problem too, when your child can't wake up and get to
the toilet in time (I am washing widdly sheets today)...

The other thing that occurs to me is that Micah is only just two, and you get
separation anxiety at that age. The fact that he keeps wanting to find you at
night makes me wonder if that is the problem, or could he be cutting his
two-year-old molars? You could also have a look at whether he is still very
alert at bedtime. If he gets a daytime sleep, it might be running too late in
the day, so that he doesn't sleep at night. We had this problem when DS1 was
about 3. And a horrible thought has just occurred to me: What about sleep
associations? Perhaps his idea of going to sleep IS screaming until he
becomes exhausted?! Eeep!

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"Parenthood is like the modern stone washing process for denim jeans. You may
start out crisp, neat and tough, but you end up pale, limp and wrinkled."
Kerry Cue

[enigma]

wrote in
ups.com:

>
> enigma wrote:
>> hmm. Emily, did your son have ear infections as a
>> baby/toddler? is he frequently stuffy or does he snore?
>> my kid is 6 & he wakes every 60-90 minutes all night. i'm
>> taking him to an ENT to see if there is something they can
>> do for apnea. you might want to check with his
>> pediatrician to see if there might be a physical cause for
>> his waking. lee
>
> You know, I hadn't thought of this, but DH did have really
> bad sleep apnea when he was a kid, and my MIL told me that
> once they took out his adenoids he was a different person
> (in a good way! haha). I might look into this -- although
> I'm pretty convinced that at the moment, this is more a
> tantrum/manipulative thing than a physical one. Not
> manipulative with an evil connotation, but he's decided
> that he doesn't like sleeping by himself, and he'll do
> whatever he can to make that not happen.

yup. Boo is an only so at Micah's age i just let him sleep
with me (and he didn't want daddy sleeping with us so he
kicked & shoved at him... sound familiar?)
i moved him to his own bed at 3.5 & he would go to bed just
fine if *daddy* did the story & tucking in, but if i had to do
it he threw hissy fits if i didn't stay until he fell asleep,
& he could keep himself awake really well :p still, he'd wake
up between midnight & 2am and come into my bed.
i finally told him (since he's now night toilet trained) that
he has to stay in his own bed all night. apparently, now that
he's 6, i can reson with him, because he just stopped, except
for 'special instances' like a thunderstorm.
he *still* wakes up, but he can turn on his CD of lullabies
himself, so it's all quiet in my room finally. i'm hoping that
adnoid removal will finally let the poor kid get a good
night's sleep (i have apnea & insomnia. it sucks!) so he'll be
calmer during the day.
lee
--
Question with boldness even the existence of god; because if
there be
one, he must more approve the homage of reason than that of
blindfolded
fear. - Thomas Jefferson

[MamaLiz]

wrote:
> MamaLiz wrote:
> > You've probably already tried this - but does he fall asleep if
> > you stay with him? We do this with Em (2-1/2) - sitting
> > with her, not lying down with her - and she generally goes
> > down pretty easily. But it can occasionally be a big time
> > sink, so I understand folks who don't want to set the
> > precendent.
>
> Yes -- but I have a bad habit of falling asleep myself, esp. now that
> I'm pregnant.

You have my sympathies - I remember those days!

> He *will* go down if someone's laying with him

The key for us was NOT to lie down with her, but to sit next to her, at
least at the point where she is dropping off. If she asks I'll lie
down for a few minutes; but sitting up once she's drowsy and
staying that way as she falls asleep makes all the difference.

> I can see sitting on
> the chair in his room while he goes down, though; maybe that would work
> better. But honestly, the time sink thing is a biggie for me. I'd get
> *really* antsy sitting there for an hour or however long.

DH and I do it in shifts, so neither one of us has time to go
completely nuts. In the beginning it did take a long time tim get
her down; now it's not nearly as bad.

Of course, I say that, and we spend 45 minutes - 1 hour "winding
down" in her room before the lights go out - reading, singing,
sometimes letting her do a little bouncing around, at least at
the beginning of the time. Once the lights go off, it's anything
from 20-40 minutes before she is asleep.

It is a lot of time, and I don't know if it'd work as well for us
if we had two children. But it gives us both some cheerful,
cozy time with her, and we all sleep better at night. Things
have also shifted over time - slowly, but she is far more
autonomous now than she was even three months ago.

Liz

[Pologirl]

Pologirl wrote:
> > I know if anyone locked me inside a room I
> > would go ballistic.

wrote:
> Yes, he ***hates*** this. He goes apoplectic. I think he could
> actually hurt himself hurling himself against the door (did this
> tonight), or at the very least, damage the door. :P

He certainly could hurt himself. Usually they don't, usually they have
enough self-preservation instinct to stop short of real damage. But
they're little children without much experience, and even adults can
make mistakes when playing this brinkmanship game.

Monkey Boy has backed off from head banging to simply screaming
hysterically "I want to hurt myself!". It's a cry for help. I expect
your son desperately wants to escape from the horrible bedtime tantrum
scheme, but he doesn't know how. It's your job to figure out a way to
show him how.


> I tried this tonight -- not locking the door, and every time he came
> out, I walked him back into his room, put him in his bed, and said
> "Ni-night, I love you." 4 seconds later, he'd be out again. This went
> on for an hour, with a brief intermission of him lying quietly on the
> hallway floor. Then we locked him in, then he had (another) screaming
> tantrum

Why didn't you stay the course? It is ineffective to change tactics in
mid course. Especially since you end up doing something that is so not
conducive to sleep. If you want him to sleep in his bed, do not allow
him to sleep (or even lie quietly) anywhere else.


> then DH did the whole "it's time for bed blah blah blah"
> 10-minute routine

Ah. Is this what usually happens after a bedtime tantrum? How about
shortcutting the process and going directly from you leaving the
bedroom to DH putting Micah down for the night? Ie, just skip the
whole tantrum thing.


> and he's asleep now, but I'm expecting him to wake up
> screaming right when we head to bed. Argh. I know this is going to
> take time, but I hate it. I feel like we're going through CIO all over
> again.

So don't do Cry It Out! You may not know it, but Ferber's book is
considered to be the source of the whole CIO idea. But it isn't. CIO
is a mis-interpretation of Ferber's recommendations. Whatever tactics
you use, both parents need to be comfortable with the tactics
themselves, and with the likely response from the child. Otherwise
you'll end up doing just what happened last night: switching tactics
and causing (or letting) the child get into an emotional state that is
counterproductive.

[Anne Rogers]

> He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
> put to bed, over and over and over.

perhaps he really just isn't ready for bed, with our first, all of a sudden
at age 15 mths, after several months of going to bed at 7.30-8ish, one night
he just wouldn't go down and we ended up with about 9 mths of him going to
bed more like 10ish, but taking 2 naps in the day, it was a non issue and
worked very well with DH's work pattern at the time, his total hours were
exactly what he was supposed to be having and the fact he got up around 8
was a big blessing.

With what you've said about the futon, I'd seriously consider a new bed for
him, it's possible making a fuss over this and choosing new covers etc. will
create a more positive attitude around sleep, possibly even excitement about
sleeping in his new bed.

Cheers

Anne

[deja.blues]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> He just wants to stay up with us!! And is more than ****ed when he's
> put to bed, over and over and over.

If you and DH go to bed at the same time as he does, and the house is dark
and boring, he might decide that there's nothing interesting to stay up for.

If he doesn't like being alone, do you have a pet that might sleep in the
room with him? We've always had cats, and there were one or two that liked
hanging out in the kids' rooms. One of our cats loves our youngest son, and
will let him know that it's bedtime by "leading" him to bed.

[AM]

We had the same problem with our two kids now ages four and six. We
tried several different things at first and for a *very* long time and
nothing worked. I work outside of home so losing sleep was not an
option given my early morning schedule and long drive. We placed a
queen bed next to our king bed and simply let them come in quietly and
sleep in. Once we did this, slowly the novelty wore off for them, and
there were no more midnight madness. Trust me -- they will grow up and
grow out!

AM

wrote:
> Micah has always been very resistant to bedtime ever since he was 5
> months and we transitioned him from our bed to his crib. He's now 2
> years old, and with maybe a *total* of 3 weeks' exception, he still
> hates going to bed, and it actually seems like nighttime itself is
> getting worse. He's been sleeping on a regular bed (a futon,
> actually) for about 4 months now -- he figured out how to climb out of
> the crib, so that was no longer an option.
>
> Typical bedtime routine: DH and I go into his bedroom and we all hang
> out, play, read books, get him in his jammies, etc. for about 20-30
> minutes. Then we turn the lights off (he's got a nightlight), and we
> hang out with him a bit more, singing, praying, and then goodnight hugs
> and kisses. Then the ritual of 'wan water!' 'wan fatcat!' etc. Then
> we say it's time for us to go to the living room. At this point, it's
> a toss-up whether he'll start crying immediately or will stay quiet for
> a few minutes. But almost invariably, about 20 minutes later we'll see
> his little head pop around the corner and then the 'wan fuzzy blanket!
> wan kiss!!!" begins. This lasts until we lock his door, and then the
> screaming starts.
>
> I actually can deal with this. I don't mind returning him to his
> bedroom over and over, and probably 90% of the time when we lock his
> door, he cries for a few minutes and then goes down. BUT he also is
> waking up *multiple* times in the middle of the night and coming into
> our bedroom and wanting to sleep with us. He'll climb into bed, or
> stand next to me and cry, or in one extreme case wedged himself between
> the mattress and the nightstand and fell asleep standing up. I tried
> letting him sleep on the floor by our bed, but 5 minutes later he was
> back trying to climb in. I've caved and let him in bed when I was just
> too exhausted to return him to his room, which I know is part of the
> problem.
>
> Last night he had a total meltdown sometime after midnight; it took me
> about 10 minutes to soothe him down and get him back to sleep, and then
> he woke up again screaming and running back into our room 10 minutes
> later -- DH took him back to his room and ended up locking the door,
> and Micah then threw a total fit and started banging the door, hurling
> himself against it, howling. I could hear the upstairs neighbor get up
> and I didn't think it was fair to subject the rest of the complex to
> Micah, so I ended up sleeping with him (and as a side note, I'm
> replacing the futon with a real mattress -- that thing sucks!! haha).
>
> BUT, this can't go on. Co-sleeping is not a viable option (DH can't
> sleep with Micah in the bed, and since Micah spends most of the night
> headbutting him and/or trying to kick him out of the bed, I can't blame
> him). I can't let him have a screaming meltdown at 2 AM and wake up
> the neighbors, but this is what happens when we lock his door. I don't
> want to sleep in *his* bed since I think that sends the wrong message.
> And we have to get this sorted out before April when #2 arrives.
>
> Micah started daycare 1 day/week in November; he loves it, but maybe
> the increased bedtime stress is part of that (the problem predates
> daycare, but it does seem to have worsened). He's a great kid but(and)
> very stubborn, and has always always always been challenging when it
> came to sleep. My mom suggested I spend really concentrated time with
> him every day -- 45 minutes with no chores, no answering the phone, no
> reading, etc. -- that maybe he needs some undivided attention and is
> trying to get it at bedtime. So I'm trying that today. But any other
> suggestions would be appreciated; I'm tearing my hair out here. I'm
> actually reconsidering co-sleeping with #2, although the thought of
> getting up to nurse also makes me want to rip my hair out, and maybe
> Micah would have been like this regardless of where he slept early on
> (you can't spoil an infant... you can't spoil an infant...).
>
> Sorry this is so long! I'm not concise when I'm sleep-deprived. :P
>
> Em
> mama to Micah, 11/14/04

[Welches]

> wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Beth Kevles wrote:
>> Hi --
>>
>> Our son had dreadful nights until we discovered his food allergies.
>> Once we eliminated them, his nights became calm, and his daytime
>> behavior was calmer.
>>
>> Common allergens that elicit these symptoms include milk protein, egg,
>> and artificial colors, particularly fd&c red #40.
>>
>> Or it could be completely unrelated, of course ...
>
> I don't think it's food allergies since he doesn't have any other
> symptoms -- but I *am* starting to think that he could be allergic to
> his room -- the futon (which admittedly is a 3rd-hand grad school
> relic) or the rug or the stuffed animals or something. Maybe he's
> waking up because he gets stuffed up.
>
Does he have feather pillows/mattreses/duvets?
I get stuffed up very quickly with any oth these, and will get a migraine by
the morning if I try sleeping with them.
Debbie