"Time Wasting Rules" - from Real Simple Magazine - NOT GOOD!

[Corinne]

I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was AMAZED
and greatly disappointed to read the following:

"The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
(page 136)

What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
through 3 a.m. feedings." They go on to quote Boris Petrikovsky,
chairman of the department of obstetrics-gynecology at Nassau
University Medical Center, in East Meadow, New York, as saying, "The
biggest downside of not breast-feeding is that the mother misses out
on some of the bonding."

You can check the article out yourself by visiting
http://www.RealSimple.com - use access code easyfood to view the current
issue.
I strongly urge you to write letters of protest. You can reach the managing
editor, Kristin van Ogtrop by email at , or by snail
mail at:

REAL SIMPLE, Time & Life Building
Rockefeller Center
New York, NY 10020-1393.

Be sure to include your full name, address, and home telephone on any
correspondence for verification purposes.You might also consider contacting
Clinique, JJill, Sephora, Eucerin, The Container Store, and Brita, major
advertisers in this magazine, to let them know about your displeasure.
Please make everyone aware of this shameful behavior on Real Simple's part."

Please, folks, let's bombard the mag with the REAL facts...not some drivel
written to grab attention & sell mags.

Corinne


************************************************** ***
When mama ain't happy, ain't nobody happy.

[dragonlady]

In article <ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02>, "Corinne" >
wrote:

> I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was AMAZED
> and greatly disappointed to read the following:
>
> "The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
> contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> (page 136)
>
> What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
> eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> through 3 a.m. feedings."

Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Clisby Williams]

dragonlady wrote:

>In article <ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02>, "Corinne" >
>wrote:
>
>
>
>>I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was AMAZED
>>and greatly disappointed to read the following:
>>
>>"The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
>>contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
>>(page 136)
>>
>>What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
>>that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
>>eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
>>through 3 a.m. feedings."
>>
>>
>
>Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
>imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
>-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
>I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
>being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
>cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
>formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
>compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
>
>meh
>
>

Actually, that's the one thing I agree with. My first child was
formula-fed, and my second
breastfed. The formula-feeding was definitely simpler for me. But
then, it might have
made my life "simpler" to plop the babies in a playpen in a soundproofed
room and close
the door. What's simplest is not always what's preferable.

Clisby

[badgirl]

"Corinne" > wrote in message
news:ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02...
> I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was
AMAZED
> and greatly disappointed to read the following:
>
> "The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on
newstands,
> contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> (page 136)
>
> What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby
is
> eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> through 3 a.m. feedings." They go on to quote Boris Petrikovsky,
> chairman of the department of obstetrics-gynecology at Nassau
> University Medical Center, in East Meadow, New York, as saying, "The
> biggest downside of not breast-feeding is that the mother misses out
> on some of the bonding."
>
> You can check the article out yourself by visiting
> http://www.RealSimple.com - use access code easyfood to view the
current


It's telling me I need to sign up to read it.

[Corinne]

If you go in through AOL, you don't need to sign up.

Corinne

--
"Since AP parents are accused of "spoiling" their children with
responsiveness, love, understanding, patience, positive interaction,
intimacy and closeness, respect, and value - I have decided that spoiling
ROCKS! Teaching my child that she ALWAYS deserves all of the above is the
right thing to do, and I plan to own my spoiling ways. Baby Spoilers Unite!"
--Jessica, iVillage AP board

"badgirl" > wrote in message
et...
>
>
> "Corinne" > wrote in message
> news:ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02...
> > I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was
> AMAZED
> > and greatly disappointed to read the following:
> >
> > "The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on
> newstands,
> > contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> > (page 136)
> >
> > What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> > that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby
> is
> > eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> > through 3 a.m. feedings." They go on to quote Boris Petrikovsky,
> > chairman of the department of obstetrics-gynecology at Nassau
> > University Medical Center, in East Meadow, New York, as saying, "The
> > biggest downside of not breast-feeding is that the mother misses out
> > on some of the bonding."
> >
> > You can check the article out yourself by visiting
> > http://www.RealSimple.com - use access code easyfood to view the
> current
>
>
> It's telling me I need to sign up to read it.
>
>

[toto]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 00:29:08 GMT, "badgirl" >
wrote:

>> You can check the article out yourself by visiting
>> http://www.RealSimple.com - use access code easyfood to view the
>current
>
>
>It's telling me I need to sign up to read it.

I think this is a scam to harvest email addies. I gave it a spam trap
addy and will be interested to see what happens.

I saw no reference to breastfeeding in the article about 20 rules you
can break either.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Christina]

"badgirl" wrote

> It's telling me I need to sign up to read it.

If you get to the page where you are asked to sign up, there should also be
a button saying something like "Newsstand Readers/Buyers". Click on this
button and you will be asked to provide the access code from the current
issue (the one that Corinne gave was easyfood) and an e-mail address. This
is how I got in. I also gave a spam-trap address and still got access.

I hope I remembered this procedure correctly. It seemed like I had to go
through a bunch of pages to get to the article.

Christina
Mom to DS, 20 months

[badgirl]

"Corinne" > wrote in message
news:bUIPa.38304$ye4.29625@sccrnsc01...
> If you go in through AOL, you don't need to sign up.
>
> Corinne
>
> --
> "Since AP parents are accused of "spoiling" their children with
> responsiveness, love, understanding, patience, positive interaction,
> intimacy and closeness, respect, and value - I have decided that
spoiling
> ROCKS! Teaching my child that she ALWAYS deserves all of the above
is the
> right thing to do, and I plan to own my spoiling ways. Baby Spoilers
Unite!"
> --Jessica, iVillage AP board
>


uhm, ok but I don't have aohell

Jen

[Jan Andrea H.]

Here's the reply I sent:

Dear folks,

As a potential subscriber, I have to say, the "20 rules to break now"
article in the August issue has just made me a forever non-subscriber. The
Ob-Gyn who is quoted in the article is way, way off. The worst things that
could happen to a baby who is not breastfed are myriad and serious -- not
every baby will have an adverse reaction, but try talking to parents whose
babies could not tolerate any of the formulas currently on the market and
ask them if it was simpler not to breastfeed! It's not just a matter of
missing out on bonding. They miss out on all the immune benefits of
breastmilk. They are more likely to have digestive disturbances as infants,
ranging from constipation, to milk protein allergies, to diarrhea. Babies
who are not fed breastmilk are more likely to suffer from diabetes, obesity,
Crohn's disease, and a number of other conditions later in life. All of this
is very well documented in medical literature... which your "expert" has
apparently not read. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends nursing
for at least a year... but since your "expert" is not, in fact, an expert on
babies, I suppose we shouldn't expect him to realize this.

Bottle-feeding takes up far more time than breastfeeding -- when I was
breastfeeding my son, if he got hungry, all I had to do was put him to my
breast. Period. There was no preparation of formula, worrying about
sterilizing or cleaning bottles, wondering if I'd brought enough formula
with me on an errand, worrying about the staggering costs of formula
feeding... and I could rest assured knowing I was providing the most
appropriate and safest possible food for my child. I knew he was eating
enough because he had enough wet and dirty diapers. My husband could still
feed him when I went out, using pumped and frozen breastmilk... which I
pumped while my son was nursing, so no extra time spent there. Middle of
the night feedings were not an issue; my son (simply) slept beside me, and
when he wanted to eat, I'd latch him on and go back to sleep. No having to
reheat formula or keep a cooler beside the bed. No getting Dad up, and no
lost sleep for me.

I sincerely hope you will print just a few of the letters you will
undoubtedly receive on this topic from other parents who are as appalled as
I am at this terrible "advice". And I hope you will consider printing an
opposing viewpoint... like the viewpoint of the entire children's medical
field!

Sincerely,
Jan A. Heirtzler
happy to have breastfed her son, and looking forward to breastfeeding her
daughter -- because it's simple, and because it's the best.

[Elana Kehoe]

This is what I got back from them...and I think the response was written
by a mom who is "saddled by guilt"...

Thank you for your letter regarding the August story "What's the Worst
Thing That Could Happen If..." We have received a great number of
passionate reader letters about the breast-feeding issue. This came as
no surprise to us as it generated strong opinions among the editors as
well. Ultimately, everyone on staff agreed that breast-feeding is always
better than not breast-feeding (and in the article we clearly outline
the benefits) but also recognized that not every mother is capable of
nursing for the 12 months recommended by the American Academy of
Pediatrics. There are women who are forced go back to work after 8 weeks
of unpaid maternity leave and don't have private offices or convenient,
discreet stations for pumping. There are women who suffer from
infections during breastfeeding, making nursing unpleasant and painful,
and ultimately interfering with the enjoyment of their babies. This
article was for the benefit of those women, who try their hardest to do
the right thing, but are defeated by circumstance and subsequently
saddled by guilt.

Thank you again for sharing your thoughts with us. We take your opinions
seriously.


All the best,
The Editors


*Please note that Real Simple responds to every letter we receive, and
therefore, regrettably, not all letters can be answered in a timely
manner. Please consult our website - www.realsimple.com - in the event
your inquiry may be answered sooner.

[Clisby Williams]

dragonlady wrote:

>In article >,
> Clisby Williams > wrote:
>
>
>
>>dragonlady wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>In article <ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02>, "Corinne" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was AMAZED
>>>>and greatly disappointed to read the following:
>>>>
>>>>"The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
>>>>contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
>>>>(page 136)
>>>>
>>>>What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
>>>>that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
>>>>eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
>>>>through 3 a.m. feedings."
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
>>>imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
>>>-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
>>>I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
>>>being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
>>>cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
>>>formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
>>>compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
>>>
>>>meh
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Actually, that's the one thing I agree with. My first child was
>>formula-fed, and my second
>>breastfed. The formula-feeding was definitely simpler for me. But
>>then, it might have
>>made my life "simpler" to plop the babies in a playpen in a soundproofed
>>room and close
>>the door. What's simplest is not always what's preferable.
>>
>>Clisby
>>
>>
>>
>
>I don't want to dispute you -- I believe you -- but I can't figure out
>how formula and bottles could be simpler than breastfeeding, especially
>if you spend much time out of the house, but even if you are home all
>the time.
>
>Can you explain how it was simpler?
>
>meh
>
>

Sure. The major thing, of course, is that if you formula-feed a child,
you don't have to do
it all. Until my daughter was about 7 months old, my husband did the
majority of the
feeding (he was the SAHP for most of that time.) How could BF possibly
have been simpler for me?

With my breastfed child: for the first 3 months, breastfeeding was
very difficult. YMMV,
but I can't consider something that caused that much pain to have made
my life simpler.
The second three months were much better, but still not easy, by any
measure. And again,
I had to do it all. That's the huge downside of breastfeeding. I
think it's easy now; but
I have a 17-month-old who only nurses 3-4 times in a 24-hour period, and
probably wouldn't
care if I cut it back to twice.

In my experience of reading these newsgroups, people who talk about the
inconvenience
of formula feeding typically are grossly exaggerating the amount of time
and bother it takes.
Here's the kind of thing I read:

1. You have to sterilize bottles. (No, you don't.)
2. You have to get up in the middle of the night and fix a bottle.
(Only if your definition
of "fixing a bottle" is: reach in the refrigerator, pull out a
bottle, stick it in the baby's
mouth. If you have a picky baby, maybe you microwave it for 10
seconds first.)
3. If you go out with the baby, you have to wait until you find
somewhere to warm up
the bottle. (No, you don't.)
4. You have to go to the trouble of buying the formula. (Oh, give me
a break.)
5. You might run out of formula. (Never happened. How much
trouble is it to remember
to buy the only food your baby eats?)



Clisby

[Clisby Williams]

Banty wrote:

>In article >,
says...
>
>
>>For me ff was simpler because bf was:
>>1) Sit down
>>2) Plop out breast(s)?
>>3) switch breast
>>4) switch breast
>>5) switch breast
>>etc. alot for hours on end. Both my babies wanted to constantly for
>>hours on end be on the nipple because of supply issues. I gave up on
>>bf with my first and persevered with the help of domperidone with my
>>second.
>>
>>while ff was:
>>
>>1) pour water in bottle
>>2) put formula in bottle
>>3) shake
>>4) feed baby for max 15 min
>>
>>Which required no refrigeration, microwave, pitcher, or measuring
>>cups. It did require a store :-)
>>
>>
>
>Yep.
>
>I did both, and I think the perception varies on what the mother does and
>considers relaxing. Also the milk supply and let down.
>
>If it's feet up watching TV or sitting outside taking in the air and scenery and
>yammering on the phone to friends that mom loves, sitting and switching breasts
>is just the ticket.
>
>If more active pursuits are what's satisfying and relaxing to mom, sitting and
>switching breasts for 1/2 hour or so can be really reaaally sloooooow. And
>what's hard is what *else* has to be done with the time left over after
>siiiiittting and leetting dooown and relllaaaaxxxing for a loooooong time. (And
>no - don't say "oh -doncha know you can let the housework go" - I got REAL TIRED
>OF the clutter and feeling allergic to boot in a dirty, cat-hair filled house.)
>
>I did nurse, but my experience of it was more like that latter. My temprament
>isn't one to sit day in day out and look at baby and TV and trees and grass
>hours and yammer with whoever's hanging out hours in hours out day in day out.
>And I'm too heavy breasted to set up, hold baby in one arm, hold a paperback in
>the other.
>
>Banty
>
>
>

Yep. And some of us don't get the side benefit of that supposed flow of
relaxing hormones during
nursing. I've nursed my son for 17 months, and the only hormonal side
effects I've felt have
been unpleasant (uterine contractions, and letdown.) Even once the
bad part was past, I've
seldom nursed him without thinking, "OK, honey, aren't you about through
now?"

Clisby

[Corinne]

FANTASTIC REPLY!!!!

Corinne

--
"Since AP parents are accused of "spoiling" their children with
responsiveness, love, understanding, patience, positive interaction,
intimacy and closeness, respect, and value - I have decided that spoiling
ROCKS! Teaching my child that she ALWAYS deserves all of the above is the
right thing to do, and I plan to own my spoiling ways. Baby Spoilers Unite!"
--Jessica, iVillage AP board

"Jan Andrea H." > wrote in message
...
> Here's the reply I sent:
>
> Dear folks,
>
> As a potential subscriber, I have to say, the "20 rules to break now"
> article in the August issue has just made me a forever non-subscriber.
The
> Ob-Gyn who is quoted in the article is way, way off. The worst things
that
> could happen to a baby who is not breastfed are myriad and serious -- not
> every baby will have an adverse reaction, but try talking to parents whose
> babies could not tolerate any of the formulas currently on the market and
> ask them if it was simpler not to breastfeed! It's not just a matter of
> missing out on bonding. They miss out on all the immune benefits of
> breastmilk. They are more likely to have digestive disturbances as
infants,
> ranging from constipation, to milk protein allergies, to diarrhea. Babies
> who are not fed breastmilk are more likely to suffer from diabetes,
obesity,
> Crohn's disease, and a number of other conditions later in life. All of
this
> is very well documented in medical literature... which your "expert" has
> apparently not read. The American Academy of Pediatrics recommends
nursing
> for at least a year... but since your "expert" is not, in fact, an expert
on
> babies, I suppose we shouldn't expect him to realize this.
>
> Bottle-feeding takes up far more time than breastfeeding -- when I was
> breastfeeding my son, if he got hungry, all I had to do was put him to my
> breast. Period. There was no preparation of formula, worrying about
> sterilizing or cleaning bottles, wondering if I'd brought enough formula
> with me on an errand, worrying about the staggering costs of formula
> feeding... and I could rest assured knowing I was providing the most
> appropriate and safest possible food for my child. I knew he was eating
> enough because he had enough wet and dirty diapers. My husband could
still
> feed him when I went out, using pumped and frozen breastmilk... which I
> pumped while my son was nursing, so no extra time spent there. Middle of
> the night feedings were not an issue; my son (simply) slept beside me, and
> when he wanted to eat, I'd latch him on and go back to sleep. No having
to
> reheat formula or keep a cooler beside the bed. No getting Dad up, and no
> lost sleep for me.
>
> I sincerely hope you will print just a few of the letters you will
> undoubtedly receive on this topic from other parents who are as appalled
as
> I am at this terrible "advice". And I hope you will consider printing an
> opposing viewpoint... like the viewpoint of the entire children's medical
> field!
>
> Sincerely,
> Jan A. Heirtzler
> happy to have breastfed her son, and looking forward to breastfeeding her
> daughter -- because it's simple, and because it's the best.
>
>

[Donna Metler]

"Kara H" > wrote in message
...
>
> "toto" > wrote:
>
> > I think this is a scam to harvest email addies. I gave it a spam trap
> > addy and will be interested to see what happens.
>
> It might be. But I'm not so sure.
>
> > I saw no reference to breastfeeding in the article about 20 rules you
> > can break either.
>
> There definitely was a reference to breastfeeding- see below:
>
> "don't breast-feed your child?
>
> most likely: "In the long run, nothing," says Boris Petrikovsky, chairman
of
> the department of obstetrics-gynecology at Nassau University Medical
Center,
> in East Meadow, New York. When you're bottle-feeding, you know exactly how
> much food the baby is eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no
> excuse to sleep through 3 a.m. feedings. "There is also absolutely no
> conclusive data on breast milk's effects on brain development," adds
> Petrikovsky.
>
> worst case: "The biggest downside of not breast-feeding is that the mother
> misses out on some of the bonding," says Petrikovsky. And since breast
milk
> is specially designed to meet the nutritional needs of infants and
contains
> antibodies that help protect them from a variety of illnesses, "babies who
> are breast-fed are more likely to have a stronger immune system and be
sick
> less than formula-fed infants.""
>
> I have to say that this is a load of sh*t and I can't believe that anyone
> would even think of calling breastfeeding a "time waster". IMHO, it saves
> time! No bottle prep time, you can feed the child ANYWHERE and not have to
> wait for a place to warm the formula, etc. I'm glad that they included
the
> last statement. But I think that if they absolutely had to use this, they
> could have AT LEAST worded it in a different way to make BF'ing mothers
not
> feel like what they are doing is unimportant. I think "some of the
bonding"
> is an understatement as BF is a *huge* bonding oportunity.
>
> -Kara
> (who hasn't even BF a child yet but is still a little peeved by this!)

Besides, if you really want your husband to get up and feed the baby at
night, you can always pump and let him give a bottle ;)


>
>
>
> > Dorothy
> >
> > There is no sound, no cry in all the world
> > that can be heard unless someone listens ..
> > Outer Limits
>
>

[Sara]

Elana Kehoe wrote:

> This is what I got back from them...and I think the response was written
> by a mom who is "saddled by guilt"...
>
> ...There are women who are forced go back to work after 8 weeks
> of unpaid maternity leave and don't have private offices or convenient,
> discreet stations for pumping...

Yeah, especially if they work for Time, Inc, the publishers of Real
Simple. Grrr.

--
Sara, who used to work there

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"Donna Metler" > wrote:

> "Kara H" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "toto" > wrote:
> >
> > > I think this is a scam to harvest email addies. I gave it a spam trap
> > > addy and will be interested to see what happens.
> >
> > It might be. But I'm not so sure.
> >
> > > I saw no reference to breastfeeding in the article about 20 rules you
> > > can break either.
> >
> > There definitely was a reference to breastfeeding- see below:
> >
> > "don't breast-feed your child?
> >
> > most likely: "In the long run, nothing," says Boris Petrikovsky, chairman
> of
> > the department of obstetrics-gynecology at Nassau University Medical
> Center,
> > in East Meadow, New York. When you're bottle-feeding, you know exactly how
> > much food the baby is eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no
> > excuse to sleep through 3 a.m. feedings. "There is also absolutely no
> > conclusive data on breast milk's effects on brain development," adds
> > Petrikovsky.
> >
> > worst case: "The biggest downside of not breast-feeding is that the mother
> > misses out on some of the bonding," says Petrikovsky. And since breast
> milk
> > is specially designed to meet the nutritional needs of infants and
> contains
> > antibodies that help protect them from a variety of illnesses, "babies who
> > are breast-fed are more likely to have a stronger immune system and be
> sick
> > less than formula-fed infants.""
> >
> > I have to say that this is a load of sh*t and I can't believe that anyone
> > would even think of calling breastfeeding a "time waster". IMHO, it saves
> > time! No bottle prep time, you can feed the child ANYWHERE and not have to
> > wait for a place to warm the formula, etc. I'm glad that they included
> the
> > last statement. But I think that if they absolutely had to use this, they
> > could have AT LEAST worded it in a different way to make BF'ing mothers
> not
> > feel like what they are doing is unimportant. I think "some of the
> bonding"
> > is an understatement as BF is a *huge* bonding oportunity.
> >
> > -Kara
> > (who hasn't even BF a child yet but is still a little peeved by this!)
>
> Besides, if you really want your husband to get up and feed the baby at
> night, you can always pump and let him give a bottle ;)
>
>
Or even just have him get up and bring the baby to you in bed. Since DH
can get up and do things and fall back asleep easily, but I cannot fall
back asleep if I've gotten vertical, he routinely brought babies to me
to nurse, then returned them to bed -- I barely woke up, we both got
plenty of sleep.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Clisby Williams > wrote:

> dragonlady wrote:
>
> >In article <ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02>, "Corinne" >
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was AMAZED
> >>and greatly disappointed to read the following:
> >>
> >>"The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
> >>contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> >>(page 136)
> >>
> >>What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> >>that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
> >>eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> >>through 3 a.m. feedings."
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
> >imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
> >-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
> >I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
> >being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
> >cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
> >formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
> >compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
> >
> >meh
> >
> >
>
> Actually, that's the one thing I agree with. My first child was
> formula-fed, and my second
> breastfed. The formula-feeding was definitely simpler for me. But
> then, it might have
> made my life "simpler" to plop the babies in a playpen in a soundproofed
> room and close
> the door. What's simplest is not always what's preferable.
>
> Clisby
>

I don't want to dispute you -- I believe you -- but I can't figure out
how formula and bottles could be simpler than breastfeeding, especially
if you spend much time out of the house, but even if you are home all
the time.

Can you explain how it was simpler?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Jenn]

In article >, The Ranger
> writes
>
>I remember feeding taking a maximum of 15 minutes for each child. (Spawn was
>a little more difficult because she was a lazy feeder and tended to try to
>nap.)
>
>The Ranger
>
>
We had a friend visit the other day, who has a FF son the same age as my
youngest. Her son started fussing, and even though she was quick off
the mark, my son had let me know he wanted to feed, and finished long
before she and her son had, even though my child 'asked' second.
--
Jenn
UK

[The Ranger]

dragonlady asked:
> OK -- but how was that simpler than:
>
> 1) Sit down
> 2) Plop out breast(s)?
>
> Which requires no refrigeration, microwave, store, pitcher,
> or measuring cups?

Storage is internal, which takes care of minimal nuking and containment
requirements but does not provide measured-out doses. None of my three lost
weight at any point during their formula daze. <shrug>

If you're espressing <I'm not sure if that's the right term now>, you're
still faced with the same issues of storage, nuking, and measuring but you
also have added equipment (the pump) and mandatory refrigeration.

> (And, yes, I understand that for many people bottle
> feeding is necessary/desirable for reasons that have
> nothing to do with simplicity.)

Understood and I don't think we're arguing that point here. You were asking
about ease and I provided the reasoning behind our choice of formula. :)

The Ranger

[blacksalt]

dragonlady wrote:

> Well, heck, if they're going to include pumping for women who have to go
> back to work, or who for some other reason are unable to nurse
> comfortably, it IS more time consuming!

It is? I used a double pumper and could whip out my 7-9 oz. in 8 minutes
flat. However, to keep baby interested in me, daddy brought baby in to
my work2-3 times a day. *That* was time consuming. Getting up half an
hour early to feed him first thing, that was tiring. The pumping, which
I did for the weeks I worked overnight, was the easy part. I'm glad I
did it, but without a homeDaddy, it would have been durn tough.
As for the article, what do you expect from a magazine that uses such an
ungrammatical phrase for a title.
blacksalt

[KC]

For me ff was simpler because bf was:
1) Sit down
2) Plop out breast(s)?
3) switch breast
4) switch breast
5) switch breast
etc. alot for hours on end. Both my babies wanted to constantly for
hours on end be on the nipple because of supply issues. I gave up on
bf with my first and persevered with the help of domperidone with my
second.

while ff was:

1) pour water in bottle
2) put formula in bottle
3) shake
4) feed baby for max 15 min

Which required no refrigeration, microwave, pitcher, or measuring
cups. It did require a store :-)

I think it is my supply issues and inability to move while bf because
of large breasts which make it hard for my dd to keep her latch that
make me think bf is hard.

What I think it comes down to is YMMV. For someone who has a baby
that nurses every 2 hours for 10 minutes and can walk around during
that, and sleeps fine on their side at night and doesn't get mastitis
or have a bad latch, or a baby with a small mouth, bf the easier. For
people who don't worry about sterilizing bottles, give kids room temp
formula made with powder on the spot with a fast flow nipple, formula
feeding is a breeze. It is just different for different people in
different circumstances.

KC

dragonlady > wrote in message news:<mehouck-> OK -- but how was that simpler than:
>
> 1) Sit down
> 2) Plop out breast(s)?
>
> Which requires no refrigeration, microwave, store, pitcher, or measuring
> cups?
>
> (Again, I really am NOT trying to be difficult; I've heard people say
> that bottles were simpler than breasts. Since my first was
> bottle/formula fed after a few months, and my twins breastfed, I have
> the comparison, and considered breast SO much simpler -- I'm just trying
> to understand why, for some folks, the bottle is simpler.)
>
> (And, yes, I understand that for many people bottle feeding is
> necessary/desirable for reasons that have nothing to do with simplicity.)
>
> meh

[dragonlady]

In article >,
blacksalt > wrote:

> dragonlady wrote:
>
> > Well, heck, if they're going to include pumping for women who have to go
> > back to work, or who for some other reason are unable to nurse
> > comfortably, it IS more time consuming!
>
> It is? I used a double pumper and could whip out my 7-9 oz. in 8 minutes
> flat. However, to keep baby interested in me, daddy brought baby in to
> my work2-3 times a day. *That* was time consuming. Getting up half an
> hour early to feed him first thing, that was tiring. The pumping, which
> I did for the weeks I worked overnight, was the easy part. I'm glad I
> did it, but without a homeDaddy, it would have been durn tough.
> As for the article, what do you expect from a magazine that uses such an
> ungrammatical phrase for a title.
> blacksalt

Good point.

For me, it wasn't the expressing while I was at work that bothered me;
I could do that pretty fast, too. It was expressing while watching my
baby cry because she was hungry but refusing to nurse, THEN giving her a
bottle -- somewhere along the line, it just stopped making sense!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[toto]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 01:46:33 -0400, "Kara H" >
wrote:

>I have to say that this is a load of sh*t and I can't believe that anyone
>would even think of calling breastfeeding a "time waster".

No kidding.

>IMHO, it saves
>time! No bottle prep time, you can feed the child ANYWHERE and not have to
>wait for a place to warm the formula, etc. I'm glad that they included the
>last statement. But I think that if they absolutely had to use this, they
>could have AT LEAST worded it in a different way to make BF'ing mothers not
>feel like what they are doing is unimportant. I think "some of the bonding"
>is an understatement as BF is a *huge* bonding oportunity.
>
I breastfed both children. I think it not only saved time, but it
was so much easier than preparing bottles and carrying all kinds
of paraphanelia with me when I went out.

I could, put a couple of diapers and some wipes in my purse and
head off - no looking for stuff, no preparing bottles, just pack up
baby and off I went. Now, there are more ready mixed formulas
today, but the expense of that is the trade off and you still have to
go get the bottles out of the fridge, warm them up and be careful
about throwing out formula after feedings which is wasteful.

I do think mom's and dad's can bond with babies when they
feed bottles, though. I don't think we have to be so insistent
that someone who bottle feeds is a bad mom or won't bond.

Still, breastfeeding is best for both baby and mom, imo. I don't
know where this physician is coming from at all.

>-Kara
>(who hasn't even BF a child yet but is still a little peeved by this!)


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Jarkat2002]

>OK -- but how was that simpler than:
>
>1) Sit down
>2) Plop out breast(s)?

For SOME ppl it is that easy, but not everyone.

This is what BFing entails for me.

Rent a hospital grade pump.
See a multitude of lactation consultants and a myriad of LLL meetings also
multiple discussions w/ LLL leaders (even speaking w/ LLL leaders that have
experience w/ my BFing issues out of state and the country)
Store pumped milk
Fill a finger tube feeder.
Feed w/ finger tube.
Clean and sterilize all equipment.
Buy extra tubing.
Buy storage bags.

Buy nursing shields (several types to find what DD can handle)
Then ... after using the finger feeder it was off to buy a Supplemental Nursing
System.
Then train DD to use the SNS. (didn't work)
Clean all the parts, and sterilize.
Then after that didn't work very well, buy nipples and bottles and bags (I use
playtex bottles w/ the bags because the other 10 or so kinds of bottles and
nipples that we tried didn't work.) and fill w/ breast milk.
More pumping. More pumping. And more pumping.
I am sure I missed quite a few steps along explaining our BFing journey ... But
I'm sure you get the idea.
We are on opposite ends of the spectrum ... for you it has been extremely easy,
for me it has been extraordinarily difficult. Most people are somewhere
in-between and who is anyone else to make a judgment on the feeding choice that
a mother makes for her own child, self, and family.
A few days ago I was feeding DD at a restaurant. (DD gets formula as well as
breast milk at this time) A woman asked me "is that formula or breast milk?" I
said formula, she gave me a dirty look, shook her head, and turned her back to
me.
Bitch.
IF she only had any idea.
~Kat



Planet Claire has pink air
All the trees are red
No one ever dies there
No one has a head

[Clisby Williams]

dragonlady wrote:

>In article >,
> Barbara Bomberger > wrote:
>
>
>
>>On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:30:47 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
>>>imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
>>>-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
>>>I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
>>>being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
>>>cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
>>>formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
>>>compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
>>>
>>>
>>Well first of all, I didnt clean bottles. I used the replaceable bags
>>and had enough nipples to lst a long time.
>>
>>Secondly (and this is a benefit, having done both), my younger
>>children could be held and fed by their dad, by me, by their ten year
>>old sister ..you get the drift.
>>
>>I got much more sleep as a formula feeding parent, and much more free
>>time.
>>
>>This is not a statement about the value of one kind of feeding over
>>the other, just a statement on my experience with the "time" factor.
>>
>>Barb
>>
>>
>>
>
>I can definately see how formula and bottles would be a time saver and
>simpler for the mother in a household with more adults (or older kids)
>than babies; I know how much I enjoyed feeding my younger brother and
>sister -- and if mom had nursed, I would not have had that particular
>pleasure. I guess I was just thinking in terms of "person hours" --
>the total time spent -- not just "mother hours".
>
>meh
>
>

Yes. It's just like hiring a cleaning service makes life simpler for
me. Of course somebody
else is putting in the time cleaning - but the important factor is that
it ain't always me.

Clisby

[Clisby Williams]

Nan wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:56:31 -0500, toto >
>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>>I breastfed both children. I think it not only saved time, but it
>>was so much easier than preparing bottles and carrying all kinds
>>of paraphanelia with me when I went out.
>>
>>
>
>I've never understood the "all kinds of paraphanelia" comment, either.
>I bf'd as well as bottlefed, and didn't find I had to tote all kinds
>of anything when I went out.
>2 bottles in my bag, and that was it.
>Well, other than all the stuff *all* moms seem to need to tote....
>diapers, wipes, etc in a diaper bag.
>
>

I don't get it either. I don't what people imagine you have to carry
around with
you. I always kept a couple of clean bottles and a couple of small
cans of
ready-to-feed formula in my backpack (I don't carry a purse or a diaper
bag -
everything I need goes in the backpack.) That was it for "all kinds of
paraphernalia."

Clisby

>
>

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Clisby Williams > wrote:

> Banty wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> says...
> >
> >
> >>For me ff was simpler because bf was:
> >>1) Sit down
> >>2) Plop out breast(s)?
> >>3) switch breast
> >>4) switch breast
> >>5) switch breast
> >>etc. alot for hours on end. Both my babies wanted to constantly for
> >>hours on end be on the nipple because of supply issues. I gave up on
> >>bf with my first and persevered with the help of domperidone with my
> >>second.
> >>
> >>while ff was:
> >>
> >>1) pour water in bottle
> >>2) put formula in bottle
> >>3) shake
> >>4) feed baby for max 15 min
> >>
> >>Which required no refrigeration, microwave, pitcher, or measuring
> >>cups. It did require a store :-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >Yep.
> >
> >I did both, and I think the perception varies on what the mother does and
> >considers relaxing. Also the milk supply and let down.
> >
> >If it's feet up watching TV or sitting outside taking in the air and scenery
> >and
> >yammering on the phone to friends that mom loves, sitting and switching
> >breasts
> >is just the ticket.
> >
> >If more active pursuits are what's satisfying and relaxing to mom, sitting
> >and
> >switching breasts for 1/2 hour or so can be really reaaally sloooooow. And
> >what's hard is what *else* has to be done with the time left over after
> >siiiiittting and leetting dooown and relllaaaaxxxing for a loooooong time.
> >(And
> >no - don't say "oh -doncha know you can let the housework go" - I got REAL
> >TIRED
> >OF the clutter and feeling allergic to boot in a dirty, cat-hair filled
> >house.)
> >
> >I did nurse, but my experience of it was more like that latter. My
> >temprament
> >isn't one to sit day in day out and look at baby and TV and trees and grass
> >hours and yammer with whoever's hanging out hours in hours out day in day
> >out.
> >And I'm too heavy breasted to set up, hold baby in one arm, hold a paperback
> >in
> >the other.
> >
> >Banty
> >
> >
> >
>
> Yep. And some of us don't get the side benefit of that supposed flow of
> relaxing hormones during
> nursing. I've nursed my son for 17 months, and the only hormonal side
> effects I've felt have
> been unpleasant (uterine contractions, and letdown.) Even once the
> bad part was past, I've
> seldom nursed him without thinking, "OK, honey, aren't you about through
> now?"
>
> Clisby
>

OK -- this makes sense. I'm the sort who'd rather sit in a corner
somewhere -- and managed to learn to nurse the twins while reading the
newspaper. Personally, I *liked* the feeling of letting down -- though
i could have passed on the uterine contractions!

I've always understood that for some people, nursing is a PIA: they may
have lactation problems, or a baby with a severe cleft pallatte or other
medical issues, or a baby who just can't seem to latch on, or baby with
neo-natal problems that meant they couldn't nurse for the first few
weeks or months, or they adopted, or they had to return to work, or for
some reason it made sense for someone else to be feeding the baby, or .
.. .

However, I guess I didn't understand that, for some people the sitting
down to nurse -- the time just sitting -- felt more like a chore, or at
least not pleasurable; since I'll use damned near ANY excuse to sit for
a while -- nursing (almost) never felt like a chore. (And I did enjoy
being able to tell other people, "Can you do the dishes? -- I have to
nurse the babies.")

Thanks for taking the time to put into words something I didn't really
"get" before.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Clisby Williams]

Stephanie and Tim wrote:

>"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>In article >,
>> "The Ranger" > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>dragonlady > asked in message
...
>>>[snip]
>>>
>>>
>>>>but I can't figure out how formula and bottles could be
>>>>simpler than breastfeeding, [..]
>>>>Can you explain how it was simpler?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>In our case it was as simple as:
>>>1) Purchase multiple cases of concentrated liquid formula <insert myriad
>>>
>>>
>of
>
>
>>>choices> from Toys-R-Us (either at a B&M or on-line); store in pantry
>>>
>>>
>until
>
>
>>>needed. On our trip through TX, we were able to purchase pre-measured,
>>>fully-mixed liquid formula where we swapped their lid for our bottle
>>>nipples.
>>>2) Get two cans from storage. Pop tops with can opener.
>>>3) Pour both into pitcher; measure out appropriate amount of water.
>>>
>>>
>Stir.
>
>
>>>4) P(remeasure)our into all available bottles. Cap. Refrigerate.
>>>
>>>During feeding the steps were:
>>>1) Grab two at a time from 'fridge, pop into microwave, nuke for 30
>>>
>>>
>seconds,
>
>
>>>shake, test.
>>>2) Pop on nipple cap and pop into infants' mouths.
>>>
>>>I remember feeding taking a maximum of 15 minutes for each child. (Spawn
>>>
>>>
>was
>
>
>>>a little more difficult because she was a lazy feeder and tended to try
>>>
>>>
>to
>
>
>>>nap.)
>>>
>>>The Ranger
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>OK -- but how was that simpler than:
>>
>>1) Sit down
>>2) Plop out breast(s)?
>>
>>Which requires no refrigeration, microwave, store, pitcher, or measuring
>>cups?
>>
>>(Again, I really am NOT trying to be difficult; I've heard people say
>>that bottles were simpler than breasts. Since my first was
>>bottle/formula fed after a few months, and my twins breastfed, I have
>>the comparison, and considered breast SO much simpler -- I'm just trying
>>to understand why, for some folks, the bottle is simpler.)
>>
>>(And, yes, I understand that for many people bottle feeding is
>>necessary/desirable for reasons that have nothing to do with simplicity.)
>>
>>meh
>>--
>>Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>>
>>
>>
>
>I thought Clisby's answer was pretty descriptive. Pumping is a drag. There
>is nothing simple about it. Dad was home all day; she wasn't. And the
>ability to share feeding can simplify things. Simple is in the eye of the
>beholder if you ask me. Each family's organizational style is different.
>Some people acheive efficiency by job sharing, some by stripping steps.
>
>S
>
>
>
>
>
And just to be clear - I'm not advocating formula feeding. I wish I
had perservered
with breastfeeding my first child, and I'm glad I stuck with it for the
2nd. But there's
no question in my mind that formula feeding was *simpler*. It wasn't
better -
but it was easier.

Clisby

[just me]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> For me, it wasn't the expressing while I was at work that bothered me;
> I could do that pretty fast, too. It was expressing while watching my
> baby cry because she was hungry but refusing to nurse, THEN giving her a
> bottle -- somewhere along the line, it just stopped making sense!
>


The way I could get a decent amount expressed was to pump one side while
nursing the other. Husband brought DS to work to nurse during my lunch
break. It was very helpful and I really enjoyed the break from the office
to see them. I think, though, that the nursing would have been harder on me
if I had returned to work before the twelve week growth spurt because I
simply would not have been able to keep up, at least I think not.

This subject is clearly a YMMV area, though, and what worked for me may
well be the bane of someone else's existence.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"just me" > wrote:

> "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> ...
> > For me, it wasn't the expressing while I was at work that bothered me;
> > I could do that pretty fast, too. It was expressing while watching my
> > baby cry because she was hungry but refusing to nurse, THEN giving her a
> > bottle -- somewhere along the line, it just stopped making sense!
> >
>
>
> The way I could get a decent amount expressed was to pump one side while
> nursing the other. Husband brought DS to work to nurse during my lunch
> break. It was very helpful and I really enjoyed the break from the office
> to see them. I think, though, that the nursing would have been harder on me
> if I had returned to work before the twelve week growth spurt because I
> simply would not have been able to keep up, at least I think not.
>
> This subject is clearly a YMMV area, though, and what worked for me may
> well be the bane of someone else's existence.
>

I'd have been glad to keep on expressing milk (I don't say "pump"
because I found hand expressing easier and faster) -- but she wouldn't
nurse at all. She preferred the bottle, and would just cry and turn
away when offered the breast. So at some point (around 5 or 6 months, I
think) I just quit and switched to full time formula, just cutting down
the amount I expressed each day until there was none left. It seemed
simpler than expressing *and* always using a bottle, and I figured I'd
given her the early months of breast milk. I have a great deal of
admiration for those women who have to express milk and still use
bottles who continue for more than a few months! I know how important
it is, especially for premies, it just is very frustrating to do!

I suppose I could have tried to make her nurse by letting her get
extremely hungry -- but that never sounded like a Good Idea. (And with
the other two, they would never take to a bottle; again, I suppose I
could have forced the issue, but since I didn't have anyplace to go
where I wasn't taking them with me anyway, it didn't seem worth the
effort.)

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"just me" > wrote:

> "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'd have been glad to keep on expressing milk (I don't say "pump"
> > because I found hand expressing easier and faster) -- but she wouldn't
> > nurse at all. She preferred the bottle, and would just cry and turn
> > away when offered the breast. So at some point (around 5 or 6 months, I
> > think) I just quit and switched to full time formula, just cutting down
> > the amount I expressed each day until there was none left. It seemed
> > simpler than expressing *and* always using a bottle, and I figured I'd
> > given her the early months of breast milk. I have a great deal of
> > admiration for those women who have to express milk and still use
> > bottles who continue for more than a few months! I know how important
> > it is, especially for premies, it just is very frustrating to do!
> >
> > I suppose I could have tried to make her nurse by letting her get
> > extremely hungry -- but that never sounded like a Good Idea. (And with
> > the other two, they would never take to a bottle; again, I suppose I
> > could have forced the issue, but since I didn't have anyplace to go
> > where I wasn't taking them with me anyway, it didn't seem worth the
> > effort.)
> >
>
> I don't think you should have any second thoughts or guilty feelings. You
> did what you found worked for you and your family. They are healthy kidlets
> and you have much more to deal with in life than the question of how you
> ensured that they received proper nutritional intake prior to introduction
> of solids. If that were the hardest part of parenthood, the thing that
> everything for that child's future hung on, well, then maybe the argument
> should assume the monumental guilt proportions that it often does. But it
> isn't The Shaping Event of their lives, just one more aspect of parenting
> that we all often feel judged over, whether or not anyone is actually
> judging us. You did fine.
>
> -Aula

I don't feel guilty or have second thoughts; I guess that was the point
I was trying to make: the if the article was REALLY about reducing
guilt, they should have said that, instead of making it sound like
breast feeing was a "time waster". For some people, it DOES appear to
be a time sink; for others it appears to be a time saver. Either way
-- do what works, and don't look back!

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Banty]

In article >,
dragonlady says...
>

>>
>> I always figure that, if it isn't exploring rivers and swimming in seas,
>> there's
>> LOTS of quiet relaxing stuff *I* like to do in my nice air-conditioned house
>> :-)
>>
>> Banty
>>
>
>Hmmm -- I think I'd like you, but I suspect we'd drive each other
>bat-**** crazy if we ever tried to vacation together. It isn't that I
>don't enjoy swimming or zooming around -- I just really enjoy just
>sitting, too.

Oh, I like relaxing and reading, playing piano, and I like fiber arts, too. And
of course some talking and visiting. It's the - - just - always - SITTING - -
that gets to me. And how a lot of activities for a lot of people is about -
just finding somewhere *else* to - - sit.

>A few weeks ago I spent two days with my brother and his
>partner. My brother kept asking me what I wanted to do; I didn't want
>to DO anything -- I just hadn't seen them for a very long time, and had
>the chance to spend some time with them. I think he's more like you,
>and I think just "hanging out" with me wasn't fun for him! (His partner
>was OK with it; in fact, he may have enjoyed the chance to just hang
>out and not "do" anything!)

I like a balance. Last visit to my father, I had to slow him down as to what we
all were to do. And it's *his* health that's failing. (That's unusual,
actually, almost as if he was trying to make up for something.)

It's just that sitting, per se, and yammering, per se, isn't enough for long.

Perhaps you can understand my frustration in a conversation like this:

Friends: Sooo, what are you doing Sunday?
Me: I finally have time to get back to that quilt I've been putting off!
Friends: Oh - since you're not reaally doing anything, how about going boating
with us on Sunday!

Rrrrrr....I'm supposed to want to sit and sip and visit - for hoouurs - on a
boat, and that's supposed to be soooo speshul 'cause it's on a BOAT, instead of
the relaxing and absorbing thing at home I *really* want to do!

Cheers,
Banty

[Clisby Williams]

Banty wrote:

>In article >,
>dragonlady says...
>
>
>>In article >,
>>Banty > wrote:
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>Yep - that's the extrovert-introvert split. Extroverts all want introverts
>>>like
>>>me to toss aside the books, the hobbies, and the simple solitary pleasures,
>>>defer these things to our dotages, "come out of (our) shells", and spend
>>>whatever moments we can With Other People. Drives Banty batty. :-)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>However, I would also be seriously annoyed at having my quilting
>>>>described as "not really doing anything"!
>>>>
>>>>
>>>Hear hear!
>>>
>>>Aren't we supposed to be talking about BF'ing??
>>>
>>>Banty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>Well, if you insist . . .
>>
>>
>
>I shoulda put a smiley :-)
>
>
>
>>I wonder if this isn't part of the breastfeeding split?
>>
>>
>
>I think maternal temprament is part of it. I don't think it necessarily splits
>along introvert-extrovert lines. I can easily envision a sanguine introvert
>loving the quiet time with baby(s). It's probably more on an activity
>characteristic. Although not necessarily physical activity. Part of *my*
>experience of bf'ing as a long sitting-chore was that I had no hands free to
>pursue any mental activity. If I were a B-cup, I might have liked it better.
>
>
>
>>For me -- someone who needs to be around other people to get rejuvinated
>>-- breastfeeding was something that made ME feel good. I enjoyed it,
>>and was sad when my oldest gave it up so early. I never understood why
>>folks who COULD breastfeed without serious problems would prefer to
>>bottle feed.
>>
>>
>
>WEll, IMO this isn't a deciding factor - after all, getting through Cub Scout
>nights was also sometimes something of a chore! One stretches one's boundaries
>of tolerance to parent.
>
>
>
>>If, on the other hand, for folks like you it feels more like a chore --
>>bottles WOULD be simpler, since it tends to be faster and since other
>>people can do it, too. (Regardless of a person's reason, I would be
>>hard pressed to criticize anyone's choice when it comes to this, or most
>>other parenting issues!)
>>
>>I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
>>avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
>>wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
>>personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
>>are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?
>>
>>
>>
>
>I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
>
>Banty
>
>
>

I test INTJ also.

Clisby

[Clisby Williams]

Donna Metler wrote:

>
>
>
>We're actually a little bit concerned about that for our children, when we
>have them-how do you raise children who have adequate social interaction
>when you don't really interact socially much?
>
>
>

That's a good question. I've thought about it, because we don't
socialize much, either.
We don't dislike socializing - it's just that we like peace and quiet
more. (When I was
first dating my husband, one of things I liked so much about him was that
he didn't feel compelled to yammer at me the whole time we were
together.) I think
when you have children, you just have to make the effort to invite their
playmates over,
or invite their friends along to a movie, or get them involved in
activities where they'll be
around other children. Those things don't necessarily come naturally
to parents .

Clisby

[Clisby Williams]

just me wrote:

>"Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>>I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
>>>
>>>Banty
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I test INTJ also.
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>That's three of us. Scary. I wonder how many other idealistic hermits we
>have around here?
>
>-Aula
>
>
>
>
Not only that - I like knitting and needlepoint, although I haven't done
either in awhile.

Clisby

>
>

[Clisby Williams]

toto wrote:

>On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:50:16 -0400, Clisby Williams
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>Nan wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>>On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:56:31 -0500, toto >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>I breastfed both children. I think it not only saved time, but it
>>>>was so much easier than preparing bottles and carrying all kinds
>>>>of paraphanelia with me when I went out.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>I've never understood the "all kinds of paraphanelia" comment, either.
>>>I bf'd as well as bottlefed, and didn't find I had to tote all kinds
>>>of anything when I went out.
>>>2 bottles in my bag, and that was it.
>>>Well, other than all the stuff *all* moms seem to need to tote....
>>>diapers, wipes, etc in a diaper bag.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>I don't get it either. I don't what people imagine you have to carry
>>around with
>>you. I always kept a couple of clean bottles and a couple of small
>>cans of
>>ready-to-feed formula in my backpack (I don't carry a purse or a diaper
>>bag -
>>everything I need goes in the backpack.) That was it for "all kinds of
>>paraphernalia."
>>
>>Clisby
>>
>>
>>
>Difference in the time frame? When my children were young, we did
>not have so many ready mixed things.
>
>
>
>

Maybe - but I still don't see how it could involve much paraphernalia.
If I hadn't had
ready-to-feed formula, I could have filled the bottles of water and
taken along enough
powder to mix. Or if you mean before there was powdered formula - I
could have
taken along a couple of bottles already filled with formula. At worst,
I wouldn't need
it and would throw it out, but that's no big deal. It's not like I had
to carry around
a portable sterilizer or something.

Clisby

[Banty]

In article >,
dragonlady says...
>
>In article >,
> Banty > wrote:
>
>
>>
>>I like a balance. Last visit to my father, I had to slow him down as to what
>> we
>> all were to do. And it's *his* health that's failing. (That's unusual,
>> actually, almost as if he was trying to make up for something.)
>>
>> It's just that sitting, per se, and yammering, per se, isn't enough for
>> long.
>>
>> Perhaps you can understand my frustration in a conversation like this:
>>
>> Friends: Sooo, what are you doing Sunday?
>> Me: I finally have time to get back to that quilt I've been putting off!
>> Friends: Oh - since you're not reaally doing anything, how about going
>> boating
>> with us on Sunday!
>>
>> Rrrrrr....I'm supposed to want to sit and sip and visit - for hoouurs - on a
>> boat, and that's supposed to be soooo speshul 'cause it's on a BOAT, instead
>> of
>> the relaxing and absorbing thing at home I *really* want to do!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Banty
>>
>
>See, I'd scrap the quilt and go on the boat -- not because it's on a
>boat, but because it's hanging out with people I like (you did say
>they're friends?) instead of being home engaged in a solo activity.
>
>I wonder how much of this is really has to do with personality types? I
>get recharged, rejuvinated, by just being with other people -- and, the
>way my life is right now, I don't have nearly enough of that.

Yep - that's the extrovert-introvert split. Extroverts all want introverts like
me to toss aside the books, the hobbies, and the simple solitary pleasures,
defer these things to our dotages, "come out of (our) shells", and spend
whatever moments we can With Other People. Drives Banty batty. :-)

>
>However, I would also be seriously annoyed at having my quilting
>described as "not really doing anything"!

Hear hear!

Aren't we supposed to be talking about BF'ing??

Banty

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Banty > wrote:

> In article >,
> dragonlady says...
> >
> >In article >,
> > Banty > wrote:
> >
> >
> >>
> >>I like a balance. Last visit to my father, I had to slow him down as to
> >>what
> >> we
> >> all were to do. And it's *his* health that's failing. (That's unusual,
> >> actually, almost as if he was trying to make up for something.)
> >>
> >> It's just that sitting, per se, and yammering, per se, isn't enough for
> >> long.
> >>
> >> Perhaps you can understand my frustration in a conversation like this:
> >>
> >> Friends: Sooo, what are you doing Sunday?
> >> Me: I finally have time to get back to that quilt I've been putting off!
> >> Friends: Oh - since you're not reaally doing anything, how about going
> >> boating
> >> with us on Sunday!
> >>
> >> Rrrrrr....I'm supposed to want to sit and sip and visit - for hoouurs - on
> >> a
> >> boat, and that's supposed to be soooo speshul 'cause it's on a BOAT,
> >> instead
> >> of
> >> the relaxing and absorbing thing at home I *really* want to do!
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Banty
> >>
> >
> >See, I'd scrap the quilt and go on the boat -- not because it's on a
> >boat, but because it's hanging out with people I like (you did say
> >they're friends?) instead of being home engaged in a solo activity.
> >
> >I wonder how much of this is really has to do with personality types? I
> >get recharged, rejuvinated, by just being with other people -- and, the
> >way my life is right now, I don't have nearly enough of that.
>
> Yep - that's the extrovert-introvert split. Extroverts all want introverts
> like
> me to toss aside the books, the hobbies, and the simple solitary pleasures,
> defer these things to our dotages, "come out of (our) shells", and spend
> whatever moments we can With Other People. Drives Banty batty. :-)
>
> >
> >However, I would also be seriously annoyed at having my quilting
> >described as "not really doing anything"!
>
> Hear hear!
>
> Aren't we supposed to be talking about BF'ing??
>
> Banty
>

Well, if you insist . . .

I wonder if this isn't part of the breastfeeding split?

For me -- someone who needs to be around other people to get rejuvinated
-- breastfeeding was something that made ME feel good. I enjoyed it,
and was sad when my oldest gave it up so early. I never understood why
folks who COULD breastfeed without serious problems would prefer to
bottle feed.

If, on the other hand, for folks like you it feels more like a chore --
bottles WOULD be simpler, since it tends to be faster and since other
people can do it, too. (Regardless of a person's reason, I would be
hard pressed to criticize anyone's choice when it comes to this, or most
other parenting issues!)

I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Jenn]

In article >, Clisby Williams
> writes
>
>
>In my experience of reading these newsgroups, people who talk about the
>inconvenience
>of formula feeding typically are grossly exaggerating the amount of time
>and bother it takes.

But that works both ways - I honestly think the truth of the matter is
that whatever you do routinely ends up being well practised and not
seeming to be too much bother. I pumped exclusively for months, and by
the end of the time I was pleased that I could get up, feed DS a bottle,
express and change his bum in 15 mins, now if I'm still awake 10 mins
after starting to feed ds#2 it feels like a long time - I guess it's all
subjective ;)

>Here's the kind of thing I read:
>
>1. You have to sterilize bottles. (No, you don't.)
I know in the states it's not always done, but here the 'official'
advice is still to sterilise up to about 6 months, even if you don't
have to sterilise you still have to wash them. Not everyone has a
dishwasher.

>2. You have to get up in the middle of the night and fix a bottle.
>(Only if your definition
> of "fixing a bottle" is: reach in the refrigerator, pull out a
>bottle, stick it in the baby's
> mouth. If you have a picky baby, maybe you microwave it for 10
>seconds first.)

Still have to prep the bottle before going to bed, get up to fetch it,
and that's more than if you're co-sleeping, not so much more though if
baby is in another room.

>3. If you go out with the baby, you have to wait until you find
>somewhere to warm up
> the bottle. (No, you don't.)

True, but you do have to plan how many bottles, and carry them with you.

>4. You have to go to the trouble of buying the formula. (Oh, give me
>a break.)

Trouble, no, expense? Yes.
>5. You might run out of formula. (Never happened. How much
>trouble is it to remember
> to buy the only food your baby eats?)

Depends how disorganised you are - we occasionally run out of nappies
even though it should be obvious when we're getting low on them.
--
Jenn
UK

[Jenn]

In article >, The Ranger
> writes
>E > wrote in message
...
>[snip]
>> also, expressed bm can be "stored" at room temp. for
>> quite a few hours before "going bad" whereas mixed
>> formula can't be...
>
>I am always surprised at how strongly resilient my daughter-units are at my
>attempts to do what I think is best or right. Each test often shows they
>will survive into adulthood despite my (and many other well-meaning adults)
>book-based, doctor-supported, new-age intentions. Go figure.
>
>The Ranger
>
>
Meaning what, in the context of this discussion?
--
Jenn
UK

[kereru]

"Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> dragonlady wrote:
>
> >In article >,
> > Clisby Williams > wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>dragonlady wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>In article <ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02>, "Corinne" >
> >>>wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was
AMAZED
> >>>>and greatly disappointed to read the following:
> >>>>
> >>>>"The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on
newstands,
> >>>>contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> >>>>(page 136)
> >>>>
> >>>>What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> >>>>that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
> >>>>eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> >>>>through 3 a.m. feedings."
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
> >>>imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
> >>>-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea
anyway.
> >>>I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
> >>>being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
> >>>cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
> >>>formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
> >>>compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
> >>>
> >>>meh
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>Actually, that's the one thing I agree with. My first child was
> >>formula-fed, and my second
> >>breastfed. The formula-feeding was definitely simpler for me. But
> >>then, it might have
> >>made my life "simpler" to plop the babies in a playpen in a soundproofed
> >>room and close
> >>the door. What's simplest is not always what's preferable.
> >>
> >>Clisby
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I don't want to dispute you -- I believe you -- but I can't figure out
> >how formula and bottles could be simpler than breastfeeding, especially
> >if you spend much time out of the house, but even if you are home all
> >the time.
> >
> >Can you explain how it was simpler?
> >
> >meh
> >
> >
>
> Sure. The major thing, of course, is that if you formula-feed a child,
> you don't have to do
> it all. Until my daughter was about 7 months old, my husband did the
> majority of the
> feeding (he was the SAHP for most of that time.) How could BF possibly
> have been simpler for me?
>
> With my breastfed child: for the first 3 months, breastfeeding was
> very difficult. YMMV,
> but I can't consider something that caused that much pain to have made
> my life simpler.
> The second three months were much better, but still not easy, by any
> measure. And again,
> I had to do it all. That's the huge downside of breastfeeding. I
> think it's easy now; but
> I have a 17-month-old who only nurses 3-4 times in a 24-hour period, and
> probably wouldn't
> care if I cut it back to twice.
>
> In my experience of reading these newsgroups, people who talk about the
> inconvenience
> of formula feeding typically are grossly exaggerating the amount of time
> and bother it takes.
> Here's the kind of thing I read:
>
> 1. You have to sterilize bottles. (No, you don't.)
> 2. You have to get up in the middle of the night and fix a bottle.
> (Only if your definition
> of "fixing a bottle" is: reach in the refrigerator, pull out a
> bottle, stick it in the baby's
> mouth. If you have a picky baby, maybe you microwave it for 10
> seconds first.)
> 3. If you go out with the baby, you have to wait until you find
> somewhere to warm up
> the bottle. (No, you don't.)
> 4. You have to go to the trouble of buying the formula. (Oh, give me
> a break.)
> 5. You might run out of formula. (Never happened. How much
> trouble is it to remember
> to buy the only food your baby eats?)
>
>
>
> Clisby
>
>
>
>
>

Sorry I certainly don't want to say that breastfeeding is time wasting. I
have every intention of breastfeeding my second for as long as possible.

However I do agree, bottle feeding was easier for us. For pretty much the
same reasons. I made up all the bottles at once and then he had the same
amount at the same time very day, very simple. I did breastfeed him at first
before he got into a pattern, I imagine bottle feeding on demand in the
early weeks is a bit more complicated though.

Judy

[Clisby Williams]

toto wrote:

>On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:02:10 -0400, Clisby Williams
> wrote:
>
>
>
>>toto wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>>>Difference in the time frame? When my children were young, we did
>>>not have so many ready mixed things.
>>>
>>>
>
>
>
>>Maybe - but I still don't see how it could involve much paraphernalia.
>>If I hadn't had ready-to-feed formula, I could have filled the bottles of
>>water and taken along enough powder to mix. Or if you mean before
>>there was powdered formula - I could have taken along a couple of
>>bottles already filled with formula. At worst, I wouldn't need
>>it and would throw it out, but that's no big deal. It's not like I had
>>to carry around a portable sterilizer or something.
>>
>>Clisby
>>
>>
>
>Well, perhaps you didn't have to carry it around, but bf mothers
>don't have to carry around breast pumps either.
>
>
No, but I don't hear FF mothers say they aren't BF because they don't
want to
carry around all the paraphernalia.

I'm curious why the comment is made the other way around. What is it
that people imagine
you have to carry around with you to FF? Or do some people really think
a couple
of bottles and a baggie of powder or a can or so of ready-mixed formula
is a lot of
stuff?

Clisby

[Barbara Bomberger]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:30:47 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:

>Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
>imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
>-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
>I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
>being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
>cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
>formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
>compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.

Well first of all, I didnt clean bottles. I used the replaceable bags
and had enough nipples to lst a long time.

Secondly (and this is a benefit, having done both), my younger
children could be held and fed by their dad, by me, by their ten year
old sister ..you get the drift.

I got much more sleep as a formula feeding parent, and much more free
time.

This is not a statement about the value of one kind of feeding over
the other, just a statement on my experience with the "time" factor.

Barb

[Barbara Bomberger]

On 12 Jul 2003 19:10:18 -0700, Banty > wrote:


>Friends: Sooo, what are you doing Sunday?
>Me: I finally have time to get back to that quilt I've been putting off!
>Friends: Oh - since you're not reaally doing anything, how about going boating
>with us on Sunday!

NOt really doing anything????????????????????/

Barb ( who loves to quilt but does try and have both a big and a
protable project at all times, since she travels at a minute's notice
sometimes)
>

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Barbara Bomberger > wrote:

> On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 23:30:47 GMT, dragonlady
> > wrote:
>
> >Aside from everything else that's wrong with this, I can't, personally,
> >imagine that bottle feeding is LESS time consuming that breast feeding
> >-- assuming you aren't "propping" your baby, which is a bad idea anyway.
> >I know I visited households with twins the same age as mine who were
> >being bottle fed, and the amount of time devoted to mixing formula,
> >cleaning bottles, buying stuff, and, in one case, keeping the two
> >formulas seperate -- it just looked like a real time consuming effort
> >compared to plopping a breast (or two) out.
>
> Well first of all, I didnt clean bottles. I used the replaceable bags
> and had enough nipples to lst a long time.
>
> Secondly (and this is a benefit, having done both), my younger
> children could be held and fed by their dad, by me, by their ten year
> old sister ..you get the drift.
>
> I got much more sleep as a formula feeding parent, and much more free
> time.
>
> This is not a statement about the value of one kind of feeding over
> the other, just a statement on my experience with the "time" factor.
>
> Barb
>

I can definately see how formula and bottles would be a time saver and
simpler for the mother in a household with more adults (or older kids)
than babies; I know how much I enjoyed feeding my younger brother and
sister -- and if mom had nursed, I would not have had that particular
pleasure. I guess I was just thinking in terms of "person hours" --
the total time spent -- not just "mother hours".

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Clisby Williams]

Karen Askey wrote:

>>I'm curious why the comment is made the other way around. What is it
>>that people imagine
>>you have to carry around with you to FF? Or do some people really think
>>a couple
>>of bottles and a baggie of powder or a can or so of ready-mixed formula
>>is a lot of
>>stuff?
>>
>>
>
>As Cheryl said in another post, it must be a huge YMMV thing. I've not used
>formula, but I've exclusively bf my first and am using bottles of ebm for my
>second. Almost every ff mom I have known in person has stated that a few times
>she had to return home earlier than planned or go back to the house upon
>setting out because they didn't bring enough formula or they plain old forgot
>to pack it. I myself have had to turn around 1/2 doz times in the past 3
>months b/c I forgot to bring DS's bottles along for the outing. I just am not
>in the habit of thinking of it since I never had to with DS#1!
>

Well, I can see that. It might be different if you BF the first and
bottlefeed the 2nd (I know
you're not formula-feeding, but the mechanics of carrying the bottles
around is similar). I never
forgot to take formula with me and never forgot to buy it - of course,
you can buy it at
any grocery store or drugstore around here, so it wouldn't be any big
deal if I did forget it.

>
>For me, all the "stuff" i have to think about now is the number of bottles I
>might need (1? 2? more?), the little cooler, an ice pack, an extra nipple (in
>case the one I have rips), and sometimes my Avent breastpump if I am concerned
>I might be gone long enough that I should also pump. That's, to me, a lot more
>than I ever had to take when I was only bf. When you pack that into a backpack
>with a couple diapers each for 2 kids, wipes, a couple of small toys or books
>to distract the older one, a change of clothes for at least one child, a sippy
>cup and snack for older child, my wallet, and burp cloths, I'm getting a little
>loaded down.
>
>
Like you said later in the post, this is at least partly because you're
pumping. Which, by the way, I
think is great. Women who exclusively pump for their babies are the
heroines of feeding, IMO.
I didn't have to take a cooler, or an ice pack, or a pump.

>When I'm out and about in town I don't worry as much b/c I can always return
>home if I need to. But if I go to my mom's where my emergency freezer stash is
>not readily available, then there is a little more pressure to plan the number
>of bottles and to pump once I get there.
>
>Of course, that's b/c I'm pumping. If I was ff then I could just pick up a can
>of formula and some bottled water if I was to run out during errands. Over the
>long haul, though, that's an expense I'd rather avoid while I can.
>
>Again, I guess it's a YMMV thing, but especially since I bf the first and am
>not in the habit of thinking about taking a bunch of stuff with me, and perhaps
>b/c I'm pumping and using ebm and a specialty feeding device, bf is definitely
>much easier for me!!!!!
>
>
>
I can well imagine. I pumped for my first child for a little over 2
months and it nearly drove
me crazy. I would never claim that pumping/bottlefeeding was easier
than breastfeeding.

Clisby

>
>

[Clisby Williams]

Cheryl S. wrote:

>Elizabeth Reid > wrote in message
om...
>
>
>>I don't know. I used powdered formula, and I carried a couple of
>>bottles of water, plus a Baggie of powder. Nothing that would require
>>a giant bag, and if you carry water plus powder there's no
>>fretting about anything going bad, because the clock doesn't
>>start until you mix the two together.
>>
>>
>
>This is clearly a huge YMMV thing. For me, getting out the door was
>hard enough the first few months, and even this much more to do (measure
>water into bottles and powder into baggies) would be more than I wanted
>to add. I really liked that feeding, at least, was the one thing I
>never had to think about at all. Plus, water is heavy, and my diaper
>bag was heavy enough already (compared to the tiny purse I'd been used
>to, pre-baby). I wouldn't want to have to carry water around. The
>biggest thing for me is that I really dislike washing dishes, so adding
>several bottles and nipples a day to the dish-washing is way more than
>I'm willing to do in order to use formula. But, like I said, YMMV.
>
>

Sure. And in my case, most of the burden of that fell on my husband,
anyway. I will readily
admit that BF would have been easier than FF for *him*.

Clisby

>
>

[Clisby Williams]

Sue wrote:

>Cheryl S. > wrote in message news:bes69l$8en21
>
>
>>Another INTJ heard from. ;-)
>>
>>
>
>If I knew what that meant, I could probably say that I am too. :o)
>
>--
>Sue
>mom to three girls
>
>
>
>
Well, of course, because INTJs are cool. The initials come from the
Myers-Briggs
personality assessement test, which is based (I think) on Jungian
psychology. Anyhow, you
answer a bunch of questions and are assessed on these characteristics:

I/E introverted/extroverted
N/S intuitive/sensing
T/F thinking/feeling
J/P judging/perceiving

I took it at work once - I can't remember if it was a team-building
exercise or something
else. There are web-based tests, too - I took one of those once and
also came out
as INTJ.

However, you didn't say what kind of needlework you do.

Clisby

[just me]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
>
> I don't feel guilty or have second thoughts; I guess that was the point
> I was trying to make: the if the article was REALLY about reducing
> guilt, they should have said that, instead of making it sound like
> breast feeing was a "time waster". For some people, it DOES appear to
> be a time sink; for others it appears to be a time saver. Either way
> -- do what works, and don't look back!
>

Amen!


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[Stephanie and Tim]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "The Ranger" > wrote:
>
> > dragonlady > asked in message
> > ...
> > [snip]
> > > but I can't figure out how formula and bottles could be
> > > simpler than breastfeeding, [..]
> > > Can you explain how it was simpler?
> >
> > In our case it was as simple as:
> > 1) Purchase multiple cases of concentrated liquid formula <insert myriad
of
> > choices> from Toys-R-Us (either at a B&M or on-line); store in pantry
until
> > needed. On our trip through TX, we were able to purchase pre-measured,
> > fully-mixed liquid formula where we swapped their lid for our bottle
> > nipples.
> > 2) Get two cans from storage. Pop tops with can opener.
> > 3) Pour both into pitcher; measure out appropriate amount of water.
Stir.
> > 4) P(remeasure)our into all available bottles. Cap. Refrigerate.
> >
> > During feeding the steps were:
> > 1) Grab two at a time from 'fridge, pop into microwave, nuke for 30
seconds,
> > shake, test.
> > 2) Pop on nipple cap and pop into infants' mouths.
> >
> > I remember feeding taking a maximum of 15 minutes for each child. (Spawn
was
> > a little more difficult because she was a lazy feeder and tended to try
to
> > nap.)
> >
> > The Ranger
> >
> >
>
> OK -- but how was that simpler than:
>
> 1) Sit down
> 2) Plop out breast(s)?
>
> Which requires no refrigeration, microwave, store, pitcher, or measuring
> cups?
>
> (Again, I really am NOT trying to be difficult; I've heard people say
> that bottles were simpler than breasts. Since my first was
> bottle/formula fed after a few months, and my twins breastfed, I have
> the comparison, and considered breast SO much simpler -- I'm just trying
> to understand why, for some folks, the bottle is simpler.)
>
> (And, yes, I understand that for many people bottle feeding is
> necessary/desirable for reasons that have nothing to do with simplicity.)
>
> meh
> --
> Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care
>

I thought Clisby's answer was pretty descriptive. Pumping is a drag. There
is nothing simple about it. Dad was home all day; she wasn't. And the
ability to share feeding can simplify things. Simple is in the eye of the
beholder if you ask me. Each family's organizational style is different.
Some people acheive efficiency by job sharing, some by stripping steps.

S

[Banty]

In article >,
dragonlady says...
>
>In article >,
> Banty > wrote:

>>
>> Yep - that's the extrovert-introvert split. Extroverts all want introverts
>> like
>> me to toss aside the books, the hobbies, and the simple solitary pleasures,
>> defer these things to our dotages, "come out of (our) shells", and spend
>> whatever moments we can With Other People. Drives Banty batty. :-)
>>
>> >
>> >However, I would also be seriously annoyed at having my quilting
>> >described as "not really doing anything"!
>>
>> Hear hear!
>>
>> Aren't we supposed to be talking about BF'ing??
>>
>> Banty
>>
>
>Well, if you insist . . .

I shoulda put a smiley :-)

>
>I wonder if this isn't part of the breastfeeding split?

I think maternal temprament is part of it. I don't think it necessarily splits
along introvert-extrovert lines. I can easily envision a sanguine introvert
loving the quiet time with baby(s). It's probably more on an activity
characteristic. Although not necessarily physical activity. Part of *my*
experience of bf'ing as a long sitting-chore was that I had no hands free to
pursue any mental activity. If I were a B-cup, I might have liked it better.

>
>For me -- someone who needs to be around other people to get rejuvinated
>-- breastfeeding was something that made ME feel good. I enjoyed it,
>and was sad when my oldest gave it up so early. I never understood why
>folks who COULD breastfeed without serious problems would prefer to
>bottle feed.

WEll, IMO this isn't a deciding factor - after all, getting through Cub Scout
nights was also sometimes something of a chore! One stretches one's boundaries
of tolerance to parent.

>
>If, on the other hand, for folks like you it feels more like a chore --
>bottles WOULD be simpler, since it tends to be faster and since other
>people can do it, too. (Regardless of a person's reason, I would be
>hard pressed to criticize anyone's choice when it comes to this, or most
>other parenting issues!)
>
>I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
>avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
>wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
>personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
>are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?
>

I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.

Banty

[Banty]

In article >, Dawn says...
>
>
>
>Banty wrote:
>
>> In article >,
>> dragonlady says...
>> >
>>
>> >>
>> >> I always figure that, if it isn't exploring rivers and swimming in seas,
>> >> there's
>>>> LOTS of quiet relaxing stuff *I* like to do in my nice air-conditioned house
>> >> :-)
>> >>
>> >> Banty
>> >>
>>
>>I like a balance. Last visit to my father, I had to slow him down as to what we
>> all were to do. And it's *his* health that's failing. (That's unusual,
>> actually, almost as if he was trying to make up for something.)
>>
>>It's just that sitting, per se, and yammering, per se, isn't enough for long.
>
>I'm like that too, but I don't feel that I should deprive my child of the
>benefits
>of breastfeeding just because I can't give a half hour or less several times in
>a
>day for a while. I'm nursing a 10 mo and after the first short while, it hasn't
>slowed me down any more than having a small child slows anyone down (have to
>dress,
>bathe, change, transport, and cuddle ff babies as well as bf babies)

Oh don't get me wrong - like I said in another post, in parenting one needs to
go out of one's comfort zone when it's important.

It's just that I think some bf'ers, whom the process really suits, don't
understand that it's a bigger sacrifice for other women than it is for them.

>
>I guess I just don't understand this p.o.v. very well and feel sad that any baby
>should miss out on breastmilk for perceived convenience sake.
>

I feel sad when I read statements like this. I feel sad when I think that some
folks can't think of another word than sad ;-)

What is it with the word "sad" in these bf discussions?? Even when talking to
another bfing woman, if something isn't quite in place, it's said to be
saaaaaaaaaadddd.

Banty

[just me]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> Yep. "Not really doing anything" More often unspoken, though, but you
know
> that if one says "I'm going to a ball game with my sister and her kids"
they
> would say "OK - have a good time", but if it's "I'm finishing a tailored
coat
> for myself" the response is "so can you join us tomorrow?"
>
> I really hate the "so what are you doing xxxxtime" invitations. I say
"what -
> why?" Then they usually come out with it, rather than comparing my plans
to
> theirs first.
>


I also like getting to the chase on those types of comments. I really enjoy
sitting in my back yard, watching the grass grow, the clouds float by,
listening to the birds and locusts, and embroidering by the hour. So many
people think that is done because I can think of nothing better to do. I
find it a huge stress reliever and I just enjoy it.

So, world, where would the great artistic creations of the world be if
artistic creation was viewed by even more people to be a time waster?

-Aula, off to mow the lawn so I can watch it grow some more......


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[Banty]

In article >, "just says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> Yep. "Not really doing anything" More often unspoken, though, but you
>know
>> that if one says "I'm going to a ball game with my sister and her kids"
>they
>> would say "OK - have a good time", but if it's "I'm finishing a tailored
>coat
>> for myself" the response is "so can you join us tomorrow?"
>>
>> I really hate the "so what are you doing xxxxtime" invitations. I say
>"what -
>> why?" Then they usually come out with it, rather than comparing my plans
>to
>> theirs first.
>>
>
>
>I also like getting to the chase on those types of comments. I really enjoy
>sitting in my back yard, watching the grass grow, the clouds float by,
>listening to the birds and locusts, and embroidering by the hour. So many
>people think that is done because I can think of nothing better to do. I
>find it a huge stress reliever and I just enjoy it.
>
>So, world, where would the great artistic creations of the world be if
>artistic creation was viewed by even more people to be a time waster?

Some day, some day, I would just LOVE to say something like "oh, foo - you can
party ANYTIME...how about joining me and starting an embroidery project of your
own - I can show you this new stitch I'm using from a book on Turkish embroidery
- 'sira ishi'..."

Cheers,
Banty

[just me]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> Some day, some day, I would just LOVE to say something like "oh, foo - you
can
> party ANYTIME...how about joining me and starting an embroidery project of
your
> own - I can show you this new stitch I'm using from a book on Turkish
embroidery
> - 'sira ishi'..."
>


Let's start a revolution! I'd love to learn Turkish embroidery........

On an aside, have you ever visited rec.crafts.textiles.needlework? They do
get a lot of off topic discussion going, but I have found some helpful
information there that I'd never find in most RL settings. If you can wade
through the OT stuff it is interesting.

-Aula


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[The Ranger]

Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
...
[snip]

Your choice of religion is [thankfully] not government-mandated. We chose
formula for all three of my daughter-units based on the information
available to us from sources that we felt offered more balanced opinions
than those being produced by specialty organizations.

Attempting to use the same tired, old, redundant scare tactics that we
tanked my daughter-units potential <insert favorite LLL catchphrase> or
produced mentally-deficient specimens because we didn't exclusively bf won't
convert us to The Cause any more than it did during that time. We chose
formula for several reasons, mostly because we saw more benefits to using
formula than breastmilk.

The Ranger

[The Ranger]

Jenn > wrote in message
...
> > I am always surprised at how strongly resilient my daughter-units
> > are at my attempts to do what I think is best or right. Each test
> > often shows they will survive into adulthood despite my (and
> > many other well-meaning adults) book-based, doctor-supported,
> > new-age intentions. Go figure.
> >
> Meaning what, in the context of this discussion?

Just what it says, nothing more. If you're looking for darker meanings,
you'll have to dig up someone else's posts.

The Ranger

[just me]

"Donna Metler" > wrote in message
.. .
> My husband claims both of us are hermits, because in general we prefer to
be
> at home rather than out. I really dislike crowds (has a lot to do with
being
> 5'1" and getting lost and run over easily!), and he just doesn't like
being
> around people much. So for us, even an evening with friends is more likely
> to be spent playing scrabble at someones home than out doing something
> noisy. And after spending all day at work with people, going out and
> spending more time with people just is not appealing.
>
> We're actually a little bit concerned about that for our children, when we
> have them-how do you raise children who have adequate social interaction
> when you don't really interact socially much?
>


Husband and I are both certifiable hermits. DS is a social butterfly.
There have been more than a few occasions where I had to actively talk
myself into picking up the phone to set up play dates for DS because it
meant *I* had to be social, too. I've made some nice friends this way, but
it has been real work for me to do it. I know husband is the same way.

I have come to think that children have their temperaments and DS' is very
social. So, we make our sacrifices to ensure that he has opportunities to
play and interact with kids regularly just like some parents make sacrifices
in the sleep or financial depts., among others. I have no doubt, however,
that DS will grow up quite comfortable with being alone and spending long
periods of time alone doing whatever as well, because he has been exposed to
it as the parental life style of choice. That may be a leg up on some other
kids out there, who knows.

-Aula


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[just me]

"Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
...
> >I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
> >
> >Banty
> >
> >
> >
>
> I test INTJ also.
>


That's three of us. Scary. I wonder how many other idealistic hermits we
have around here?

-Aula


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[Banty]

In article >, "just says...
>
>
>"Donna Metler" > wrote in message
.. .
>> My husband claims both of us are hermits, because in general we prefer to
>be
>> at home rather than out. I really dislike crowds (has a lot to do with
>being
>> 5'1" and getting lost and run over easily!), and he just doesn't like
>being
>> around people much. So for us, even an evening with friends is more likely
>> to be spent playing scrabble at someones home than out doing something
>> noisy. And after spending all day at work with people, going out and
>> spending more time with people just is not appealing.
>>
>> We're actually a little bit concerned about that for our children, when we
>> have them-how do you raise children who have adequate social interaction
>> when you don't really interact socially much?
>>
>
>
>Husband and I are both certifiable hermits. DS is a social butterfly.
>There have been more than a few occasions where I had to actively talk
>myself into picking up the phone to set up play dates for DS because it
>meant *I* had to be social, too. I've made some nice friends this way, but
>it has been real work for me to do it. I know husband is the same way.
>
>I have come to think that children have their temperaments and DS' is very
>social. So, we make our sacrifices to ensure that he has opportunities to
>play and interact with kids regularly just like some parents make sacrifices
>in the sleep or financial depts., among others. I have no doubt, however,
>that DS will grow up quite comfortable with being alone and spending long
>periods of time alone doing whatever as well, because he has been exposed to
>it as the parental life style of choice. That may be a leg up on some other
>kids out there, who knows.

I agree completely.

This is a matter of temprament. My son is also very sociable, and in the
neighboorhood and in school he has lots of friends. And with certain
limitations (like they need to let their parents know they're here) they come
over to our house. Your childrens' tempraments *will* out.

If there is one thing that might be important, it would be to make sure to live
in a neighborhood with kids, which of course means tolerating neighbors. But
one basically has one's complete privacy in one's home. But all you need to do
is to afford some opportunity for sociability.

And - gee, being an introvert is *not* a pathology to worry about. We don't see
"I like hanging around with people all the time and I'm worried that my children
will always have to have someone to entertain them and never be comfortable by
themselves" posts. We *do* see a lot of "my four year old is shy gee what
should we do to get her 'out of her shell'" posts.

Banty

[toto]

On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:50:16 -0400, Clisby Williams
> wrote:

>
>
>Nan wrote:
>
>>On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 16:56:31 -0500, toto >
>>wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>I breastfed both children. I think it not only saved time, but it
>>>was so much easier than preparing bottles and carrying all kinds
>>>of paraphanelia with me when I went out.
>>>
>>>
>>
>>I've never understood the "all kinds of paraphanelia" comment, either.
>>I bf'd as well as bottlefed, and didn't find I had to tote all kinds
>>of anything when I went out.
>>2 bottles in my bag, and that was it.
>>Well, other than all the stuff *all* moms seem to need to tote....
>>diapers, wipes, etc in a diaper bag.
>>
>>
>
>I don't get it either. I don't what people imagine you have to carry
>around with
>you. I always kept a couple of clean bottles and a couple of small
>cans of
>ready-to-feed formula in my backpack (I don't carry a purse or a diaper
>bag -
>everything I need goes in the backpack.) That was it for "all kinds of
>paraphernalia."
>
>Clisby
>
Difference in the time frame? When my children were young, we did
not have so many ready mixed things.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[The Ranger]

just me > answered in message
m Donna Metler's
> question in message
.. .
> > My husband claims both of us are hermits, because in general
> > we prefer to be at home rather than out. I really dislike crowds
> > (has a lot to do with being 5'1" and getting lost and run over
> > easily!), and he just doesn't like being around people much.
> > So for us, even an evening with friends is more likely to be
> > spent playing scrabble at someones home than out doing
> > something noisy. And after spending all day at work with
> > people, going out and spending more time with people just
> > is not appealing.
> >
> > We're actually a little bit concerned about that for our children,
> > when we have them-how do you raise children who have adequate
> > social interaction when you don't really interact socially much?
> >
> Husband and I are both certifiable hermits. DS is a social butterfly.
> There have been more than a few occasions where I had to actively
> talk myself into picking up the phone to set up play dates for DS
> because it meant *I* had to be social, too. I've made some nice
> friends this way, but it has been real work for me to do it. I know
> husband is the same way. [snip]

SWMBO loves spending quiet evenings at home, or going to a park by herself.
She would probably fit the above descriptions. <G>

As Aula says, setting up playdates are the best way at stimulating
socialization -- for both parties. (You'd be amazed at the number of SAHP
that feel isolated and afraid.) These playdates also control the number of
people, the places, and the costs a parent has to deal with.

The Ranger

[Frisbee® MCNGP]

"Corinne" > wrote in message
news:ymHPa.38200$H17.11890@sccrnsc02...
> I was alerted to this article on an email group I'm part of....I was
AMAZED
> and greatly disappointed to read the following:
>
> "The August 2003 issue of Real Simple magazine, currently on newstands,
> contains an article titled "20 Time Wasting Rules to Break Now."
> (page 136)
>
> What's one of the rules to break? Breastfeeding. The article states
> that with bottle-feeding, "you know exactly how much food the baby is
> eating, and Mom may be less tired because Dad has no excuse to sleep
> through 3 a.m. feedings."

The author of this piece apparently never considered parents of multiples.


--
Fris "Sleep? What's that?" bee® MCNGP #13

http://www.mcngp.tk
The MCNGP Team - We're here to help

[just me]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> And - gee, being an introvert is *not* a pathology to worry about. We
don't see
> "I like hanging around with people all the time and I'm worried that my
children
> will always have to have someone to entertain them and never be
comfortable by
> themselves" posts. We *do* see a lot of "my four year old is shy gee what
> should we do to get her 'out of her shell'" posts.
>


Ah, but do you remember how many p0ts we've had in the various parent/family
newsgroups about over-scheduling of children? I suspect that would fit in
the category of possibly not being able to comfortable being alone with
themselves because they've had little practice at it. But, then again, I
could be wrong.

-Aula


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[toto]

On 13 Jul 2003 07:52:34 -0700, Banty > wrote:

>And - gee, being an introvert is *not* a pathology to worry about. We don't see
>"I like hanging around with people all the time and I'm worried that my children
>will always have to have someone to entertain them and never be comfortable by
>themselves" posts. We *do* see a lot of "my four year old is shy gee what
>should we do to get her 'out of her shell'" posts.

Actually, we have seen posts worried about children who need someone
to entertain them all the time. I am not sure that it correlates to
the parent's temperament, but who knows.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Phoebe & Allyson]

just me wrote:

> "Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>>I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
>>>
>>>Banty
>>>
>>I test INTJ also.
>>
>
> That's three of us.


Make it 4. Although I can be an ENTJ if I try really,
really hard. Since I haven't needed to be one in awhile, I
remember how much work it is, but not that I enjoy it. ;)

Phoebe *introvert by temperament, extrovert by sheer force
of will* :)

[Michelle J. Haines]

In article >, cuhulain__98
@yahoo.com says...
> Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
>
> Your choice of religion is [thankfully] not government-mandated. We chose
> formula for all three of my daughter-units based on the information
> available to us from sources that we felt offered more balanced opinions
> than those being produced by specialty organizations.
>
> Attempting to use the same tired, old, redundant scare tactics that we
> tanked my daughter-units potential <insert favorite LLL catchphrase> or
> produced mentally-deficient specimens because we didn't exclusively bf won't
> convert us to The Cause any more than it did during that time. We chose
> formula for several reasons, mostly because we saw more benefits to using
> formula than breastmilk.

Um, weren't you just taking someone to task for trying to read stuff
into YOUR posts. Nothing she said was a personal slam on you, for
crying out loud.

Michelle
Flutist

--
In my heart. By my side.
Never apart. AP with Pride!
Katrina Marie (10/19/96)
Xander Ryan (09/22/98 - 02/23/99)
Gareth Xander (07/17/00)
Zachary Mitchell (01/12/94, began fostering 09/05/01)
Theona Alexis (06/03/03)

[toto]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 00:02:10 -0400, Clisby Williams
> wrote:

>
>
>toto wrote:
>

>>Difference in the time frame? When my children were young, we did
>>not have so many ready mixed things.

>
>Maybe - but I still don't see how it could involve much paraphernalia.
>If I hadn't had ready-to-feed formula, I could have filled the bottles of
>water and taken along enough powder to mix. Or if you mean before
>there was powdered formula - I could have taken along a couple of
>bottles already filled with formula. At worst, I wouldn't need
>it and would throw it out, but that's no big deal. It's not like I had
>to carry around a portable sterilizer or something.
>
>Clisby

Well, perhaps you didn't have to carry it around, but bf mothers
don't have to carry around breast pumps either.

Of course, I never did pump at all because I was lucky enough
to be able to stay home and/or to take my child with me to
work (consultant type work with computers) or I was able to
be away for only short times where my children (when they
were older) and could be fed solid foods and were taking
liquid from a cup.

I don't think that any mom should feel quilty about what she
chooses in this area. OTOH, I cannot see how breastfeeding
in general is more time-consuming than preparing bottles
and feeding that way because with bfeeding, you have *no*
preparation unless you are speaking of pumping.

I know some people have lots of trouble with bfeeding.
I wonder how much our stressful society contributes to that
and our insistence on speed contribute to that.

One of the things I have found in my teaching and parenting
is that the more I can untie nyself from clocks and schedules,
the better the quality of my life becomes. It is hard to do
though.











--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[Cheryl S.]

Clisby Williams > wrote in message
...
> Banty wrote:
> >I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
>
> I test INTJ also.

Another INTJ heard from. ;-)
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 3 mo.
And a boy, EDD 4.Sept

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

[Night Owl]

"The Ranger" > wrote in message
...
> Jenn > wrote in message
> ...
> > > I am always surprised at how strongly resilient my daughter-units
> > > are at my attempts to do what I think is best or right. Each test
> > > often shows they will survive into adulthood despite my (and
> > > many other well-meaning adults) book-based, doctor-supported,
> > > new-age intentions. Go figure.
> > >
> > Meaning what, in the context of this discussion?
>
> Just what it says, nothing more. If you're looking for darker meanings,
> you'll have to dig up someone else's posts.
>
> The Ranger

Hey!!! I think her question is fair. Sometimes Ranger you are not very
clear in your posting. I LOVE when you write your stories and articulate
with grand sweeping notions of life and love but in this simple posting I
wondered as well: What are you saying? <g>

Anni
>
>

[Cheryl S.]

just me > wrote in message
m...
>
> "Donna Metler" > wrote in message
> .. .
> > We're actually a little bit concerned about that for our children,
> > when we have them-how do you raise children who have
> > adequate social interaction when you don't really interact
> > socially much?
>
>
> I have come to think that children have their temperaments and DS'
> is very social. So, we make our sacrifices to ensure that he has
> opportunities to play and interact with kids regularly just like some
> parents make sacrifices in the sleep or financial depts., among
others.


I worried about this too, since not only both DH and I are introverted,
but Julie appears to be too. We started going to a playgroup regularly
last year, and for many months she actively avoided all the other kids.
My main fear was that she'd end up being as lonely and unhappy
throughout elementary school as I was. This summer though, she has
gotten much more comfortable being around other kids. I think it has a
lot to do with my actively teaching her things she can say to defend
herself in certain situations, and rehearsing them with her. For
example it used to *really* upset her when another kid would take
something she was playing with (which, of course, happens a lot at this
age). Now she has learned the sentence, "Please give that back." She
hasn't had to use it now, of course -- she's also more able to see it
coming and not let the toy get taken to begin with. I'll give DH the
credit for teaching her physical defense skills. ;-)

The other main tactic I've taken is to just expose her to social
situations as much as possible, at least a couple times a week. We go
to playgroups and playgrounds and the library, and all kinds of places
where there are lots of other kids around. While we are there though, I
accept whatever her reaction is. I never push her to do anything she
doesn't feel comfortable doing. If she is particularly clinging to me,
I'll just sit and hold her, and talk to her about what all the other
kids are doing, and how they act toward each other. Just through time,
and exposure, she has gotten more used to how other kids behave and is
much more willing to play among them. We also have plenty of occasions
where there is just one other child, at our house or the other kid's
house, and she does well there.

Now, I still seriously doubt she's ever going to be a social butterfly,
but I am not so worried that she'll be as stressed out as I was, by
having to interact with kids at school. The main thing is, she is happy
now. I think, if your child is happy, what else do you want them to do?
Not everyone needs to be an extrovert to be happy. I think it's more
important to teach your child how to be content with who they are, and
at the same time, how to create change in their lives to improve
anything they aren't happy with.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 3 mo.
And a boy, EDD 4.Sept

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

[Elizabeth Reid]

toto > wrote in message >...
> On Sat, 12 Jul 2003 18:50:16 -0400, Clisby Williams
> > wrote:

> >>I've never understood the "all kinds of paraphanelia" comment, either.
> >>I bf'd as well as bottlefed, and didn't find I had to tote all kinds
> >>of anything when I went out.
> >>2 bottles in my bag, and that was it.
> >>Well, other than all the stuff *all* moms seem to need to tote....
> >>diapers, wipes, etc in a diaper bag.
> >>
> >
> >I don't get it either. I don't what people imagine you have to carry
> >around with
> >you. I always kept a couple of clean bottles and a couple of small
> >cans of
> >ready-to-feed formula in my backpack (I don't carry a purse or a diaper
> >bag -
> >everything I need goes in the backpack.) That was it for "all kinds of
> >paraphernalia."
> >
> >Clisby
> >
> Difference in the time frame? When my children were young, we did
> not have so many ready mixed things.

I don't know. I used powdered formula, and I carried a couple of
bottles of water, plus a Baggie of powder. Nothing that would require
a giant bag, and if you carry water plus powder there's no
fretting about anything going bad, because the clock doesn't
start until you mix the two together.

Beth
Sam 8/16/2002

[Iuil]

"Elizabeth Reid" wrote
>
> I don't know. I used powdered formula, and I carried a couple of
> bottles of water, plus a Baggie of powder. Nothing that would require
> a giant bag, and if you carry water plus powder there's no
> fretting about anything going bad, because the clock doesn't
> start until you mix the two together.
>

Personally I found the problem lay in planning trips so that we were either
back by feeding time or remembering to bring the bottles with me. Plus I
was using ready-made formula which only came in 250ml cartons. DD never
took more than 180ml at a time so I either had to bring two bottles plus an
unopened carton or bring a bottle already made up which meant I was on the
clock with it.

I've done both ff and bf with the same baby and at a very young age. No
question in my mind that bfing is much easier. Even relactating was easier
to using formula, imo.

Jean


--
"And he said:
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of
Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, and
though they are with you, yet they belong not to you." Khalil Gibran

Return address is unread. Replies to <firstnamelastname> @eircom.net.

[Cheryl S.]

Elizabeth Reid > wrote in message
om...
> I don't know. I used powdered formula, and I carried a couple of
> bottles of water, plus a Baggie of powder. Nothing that would require
> a giant bag, and if you carry water plus powder there's no
> fretting about anything going bad, because the clock doesn't
> start until you mix the two together.

This is clearly a huge YMMV thing. For me, getting out the door was
hard enough the first few months, and even this much more to do (measure
water into bottles and powder into baggies) would be more than I wanted
to add. I really liked that feeding, at least, was the one thing I
never had to think about at all. Plus, water is heavy, and my diaper
bag was heavy enough already (compared to the tiny purse I'd been used
to, pre-baby). I wouldn't want to have to carry water around. The
biggest thing for me is that I really dislike washing dishes, so adding
several bottles and nipples a day to the dish-washing is way more than
I'm willing to do in order to use formula. But, like I said, YMMV.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 3 mo.
And a boy, EDD 4.Sept

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

[Karen Askey]

>I'm curious why the comment is made the other way around. What is it
>that people imagine
>you have to carry around with you to FF? Or do some people really think
>a couple
>of bottles and a baggie of powder or a can or so of ready-mixed formula
>is a lot of
>stuff?

As Cheryl said in another post, it must be a huge YMMV thing. I've not used
formula, but I've exclusively bf my first and am using bottles of ebm for my
second. Almost every ff mom I have known in person has stated that a few times
she had to return home earlier than planned or go back to the house upon
setting out because they didn't bring enough formula or they plain old forgot
to pack it. I myself have had to turn around 1/2 doz times in the past 3
months b/c I forgot to bring DS's bottles along for the outing. I just am not
in the habit of thinking of it since I never had to with DS#1!

For me, all the "stuff" i have to think about now is the number of bottles I
might need (1? 2? more?), the little cooler, an ice pack, an extra nipple (in
case the one I have rips), and sometimes my Avent breastpump if I am concerned
I might be gone long enough that I should also pump. That's, to me, a lot more
than I ever had to take when I was only bf. When you pack that into a backpack
with a couple diapers each for 2 kids, wipes, a couple of small toys or books
to distract the older one, a change of clothes for at least one child, a sippy
cup and snack for older child, my wallet, and burp cloths, I'm getting a little
loaded down.

When I'm out and about in town I don't worry as much b/c I can always return
home if I need to. But if I go to my mom's where my emergency freezer stash is
not readily available, then there is a little more pressure to plan the number
of bottles and to pump once I get there.

Of course, that's b/c I'm pumping. If I was ff then I could just pick up a can
of formula and some bottled water if I was to run out during errands. Over the
long haul, though, that's an expense I'd rather avoid while I can.

Again, I guess it's a YMMV thing, but especially since I bf the first and am
not in the habit of thinking about taking a bunch of stuff with me, and perhaps
b/c I'm pumping and using ebm and a specialty feeding device, bf is definitely
much easier for me!!!!!

koa
Still nursing James, 02/06/01
EP'ing for Joey 04/02/03 (BiCP)

[Clisby Williams]

just me wrote:

>"Cheryl S." > wrote in message
...
>
>
>>I've got several half-finished counted cross stitch projects. Never
>>seem to make it further than half way on anything though.
>> CCS is the only thing I've ever learned how to do with a needle, other
>>than the simplest button or seam repair.
>>
>>
>
>
>Think small [projects]. Bookmarks, 4x4 inch items. Those tend to come
>together quickly and you can actually finish them in the same year [BTDT].
>Also, if you like counted xstitch: consider blackwork [which is often not
>in black]. It is fun and you don't have to worry about misplacing color,
>just following the stitching diagram for placement. They come out quite
>beautiful and there are many patterns available on line for free.
>
>-Aula
>
>

I would think most people who liked CCS would probably like needlepoint
as well. I've
done needlepoint where I took the design from a CCS book.

Clisby

>
>

[Sue]

Cheryl S. > wrote in message news:bes69l$8en21
> Another INTJ heard from. ;-)

If I knew what that meant, I could probably say that I am too. :o)

--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Tai]

toto wrote:

> Well, perhaps you didn't have to carry it around, but bf mothers
> don't have to carry around breast pumps either.
>
> Of course, I never did pump at all because I was lucky enough
> to be able to stay home and/or to take my child with me to
> work (consultant type work with computers) or I was able to
> be away for only short times where my children (when they
> were older) and could be fed solid foods and were taking
> liquid from a cup.
>
> I don't think that any mom should feel quilty about what she
> chooses in this area. OTOH, I cannot see how breastfeeding
> in general is more time-consuming than preparing bottles
> and feeding that way because with bfeeding, you have *no*
> preparation unless you are speaking of pumping.

I can, because it was for me. My eldest child was of the sip and snooze
variety of infant and would feed for 40 to 60 minutes at a time until he was
around 10 months old. My next child had feeding difficulties such that I
pumped and then bottlefed ebm up to12 times a day for months. She eventually
could nurse but by that time she wasn't the slighest bit confused about
which nipple she preferred and it wasn't mine. Once she grew too big to be
satisfied by the amounts of milk I could express then I had to add formula.

I hated that at the time but there's no denying it was a whole lot less
time consuming adding water and powdered formula to a bottle, nuking it in
the m/w and feeding her for 15 minutes than it had been to nurse for the
length of time all my babies (including the third) seemed to need to be
satisfied. I usually had a whole half hour for each feed left over! Added
to that, one of the side benefits was that my husband could feed our
daughter in the night which meant I wasn't sleep deprived past the first
four months with an infant and an under 2 year old.

>
> I know some people have lots of trouble with bfeeding.
> I wonder how much our stressful society contributes to that
> and our insistence on speed contribute to that.

I think you're right, but it isn't always related to how much time a woman
has, breastfeeding can just be hard for some of us. I was fortunate to have
the time and support from my husband to be able to get as much breast milk
into my babies as possible but if I'd had to return to work it would have
been hard to the point of unhealthily stressful for me.

Tai

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Clisby Williams > wrote:


> >>
> >
> >Well, perhaps you didn't have to carry it around, but bf mothers
> >don't have to carry around breast pumps either.
> >
> >
> No, but I don't hear FF mothers say they aren't BF because they don't
> want to
> carry around all the paraphernalia.
>
> I'm curious why the comment is made the other way around. What is it
> that people imagine
> you have to carry around with you to FF? Or do some people really think
> a couple
> of bottles and a baggie of powder or a can or so of ready-mixed formula
> is a lot of
> stuff?
>
> Clisby

It depends. My twins' diaper bag was already pretty heavy, since i used
cloth diapers (which meant carrying the wet ones back home); to leave
the house for a full day would have meant 4 to 8 bottles of water and
powder (since I wouldn't want to change the water I used) -- and, yes,
that sounds like a lot of extra stuff.

This is not intended to denegrade anyone else's choice, only to explain
my own thinking on the matter.

meh
>
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Sidheag McCormack > wrote:

> Phoebe writes:
>
> >> "Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
>
> >> That's three of us.
>
> > Make it 4. Although I can be an ENTJ if I try really, really
> > hard.
>
> 5, or whatever we're up to by now :-)
>
> However E/I in Meyers Briggs doesn't mean quite the same as
> introvert/extrovert in common parlance - if it's hard work to behave like
> an extrovert, you probably still test I, don't you? I'm in the same boat,
> also INTJ (though several of the letters have sometimes come out
> differently, depending which test I do, I think this is the one I always
> get with full testing - the J is the one which is very strong for me, the T
> pretty close to the borderline).
>
> I tentatively hypothesise that (a) INTJs are overrepresented on the
> Internet, even now (and maybe Usenet is a form of communication we're
> particularly likely to find useful/attractive?); and/or (b) people who are
> interested in Meyers Briggs enough to remember what they are are more
> likely to be INTJs! I find it fascinating, though I think it's really only
> one step above horoscopes - there's plenty of evidence that it's not, in
> fact, a good predictor of job success in many fields, for example.
>
> Sidheag
>
>

But it wasn't designed to be a predictor of job success -- only a tool
to help people figure out where the stresses would be in working with
people of the various "types".

In terms of choosing a work field, when my college kids took it in a
class for making some decisions about their future, it didn't say "these
are the fields in which you will be successful." It said, "these are
the fields in which people with your "type" tend to be highly
represented; these other fields tend to have few successful people of
your "type". If you choose a job in one of the fields without many
folks like you, you may find this career very stressful."

I have avoided taking it because I was (briefly) working with someone
who treated the MBTI like Revealed Truth -- he had his own initials
carved in wood and displayed on his desk, and insisted that he couldn't
work with anyone without knowing their "type". However, I know that it
is a tool with some good uses -- and, because it became so popular,
probably even more MISuses!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Phoebe & Allyson]

Sidheag McCormack wrote:

> if it's hard work to behave like
> an extrovert, you probably still test I, don't you?

I've actually tested E once. If I make the effort to be an
extrovert for an extended period of time, I enjoy it. If I
test relatively soon thereafter, that enjoyment comes
through in the test. But most of the time, I don't make the
effort, and remember how much work it is to be around a
crowd, rather than the payoff for that work.

> I think it's really only
> one step above horoscopes

An organizational psychologist I know describes it as a
parlor trick -- good for breaking the ice, but worthless for
actually accomplishing anything.

Phoebe :)

[Cheryl S.]

Clisby Williams > wrote in message
...
> Sue wrote:
> >Cheryl S. > wrote in message news:bes69l$8en21
> >>Another INTJ heard from. ;-)
> >>
> >
> >If I knew what that meant, I could probably say that I am too. :o)
> >
> >
> However, you didn't say what kind of needlework you do.

I've got several half-finished counted cross stitch projects. Never
seem to make it further than half way on anything though.
CCS is the only thing I've ever learned how to do with a needle, other
than the simplest button or seam repair.
--
Cheryl S.
Mom to Julie, 2 yr., 3 mo.
And a boy, EDD 4.Sept

Cleaning the house while your children are small is like
shoveling the sidewalk while it's still snowing.

[just me]

"ºFree~Spiritº" <Free@Spirit> wrote in message
...
>
> BTW you guys ever do a thread on parents getting over-scheduled? <g>


I thought *all* parents were overscheduled. Who missed out on that????

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[just me]

"Cheryl S." > wrote in message
...
> I've got several half-finished counted cross stitch projects. Never
> seem to make it further than half way on anything though.
> CCS is the only thing I've ever learned how to do with a needle, other
> than the simplest button or seam repair.


Think small [projects]. Bookmarks, 4x4 inch items. Those tend to come
together quickly and you can actually finish them in the same year [BTDT].
Also, if you like counted xstitch: consider blackwork [which is often not
in black]. It is fun and you don't have to worry about misplacing color,
just following the stitching diagram for placement. They come out quite
beautiful and there are many patterns available on line for free.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

[Bannty]

In article >, Phoebe says...
>
>just me wrote:
>
>> "Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>>I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
>>>>
>>>>Banty
>>>>
>>>I test INTJ also.
>>>
>>
>> That's three of us.
>
>
>Make it 4. Although I can be an ENTJ if I try really,
>really hard. Since I haven't needed to be one in awhile, I
>remember how much work it is, but not that I enjoy it. ;)
>
>Phoebe *introvert by temperament, extrovert by sheer force
>of will* :)
>

I'm a really strong T and J, a so-so N (I even forget what the 'N' is...), but
once I tested as an ESTJ. I've been (I think) accurately described by a friend
as a "gregarious loner". I can be very outgoing as long as I have that cave to
retreat to and enough time in it.

Banty

[Banty]

In article >, "just says...
>
>
>"Banty" > wrote in message
...
>> Some day, some day, I would just LOVE to say something like "oh, foo - you
>can
>> party ANYTIME...how about joining me and starting an embroidery project of
>your
>> own - I can show you this new stitch I'm using from a book on Turkish
>embroidery
>> - 'sira ishi'..."
>>
>
>
>Let's start a revolution! I'd love to learn Turkish embroidery........

I picked up a book on it (now somewhat buried 10 years of behind unsorted kid
crafts, fittingly).

>
>On an aside, have you ever visited rec.crafts.textiles.needlework? They do
>get a lot of off topic discussion going, but I have found some helpful
>information there that I'd never find in most RL settings. If you can wade
>through the OT stuff it is interesting.

No time for either :-(

Banty

[Tina]

Clisby Williams > wrote in message >...
> Sue wrote:
>
> >Cheryl S. > wrote in message news:bes69l$8en21
> >
> >
> >>Another INTJ heard from. ;-)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >If I knew what that meant, I could probably say that I am too. :o)
> >
> >--
> >Sue
> >mom to three girls
> >
> >
> >
> >
> Well, of course, because INTJs are cool.

<snip>
> However, you didn't say what kind of needlework you do.
>
> Clisby


OK -- I'll admit to being an ENFP, as well as a quilter, beadworker,
and embroiderer.

Surely there are some other E's at least (if not FP's) out there!

Tina.

[H Schinske]

>> I tentatively hypothesise that (a) INTJs are overrepresented on the
>> Internet, even now (and maybe Usenet is a form of communication we're
>> particularly likely to find useful/attractive?); and/or (b) people who are
>> interested in Meyers Briggs enough to remember what they are are more
>> likely to be INTJs!

Whatever I am, it's the kind that answers almost every question on the M-B with
"It depends!"

--Helen

[just me]

"Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
...
> I would think most people who liked CCS would probably like needlepoint
> as well. I've
> done needlepoint where I took the design from a CCS book.
>


I would think that the patterns would be pretty much interchangeable other
than blackwork. I have not done needlepoint in years but I've often
pondered the close similarity of the two crafts.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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[Meredith Edwards-Cornwall]

In > seyshell wrote:
omg, did
> you know it was *encouraged* to give your 2 month old phenergan!!!!
> Michelle


The anti-nausea drug? Seriously? Do I even want to know why you were
encouraged? Did it have to do with sleep or something? Every time I've
taken it, I'm so loopy that I just sleep for about six hours.

Meredith
--
Mom to limping-boy and smiley-girl

[Meredith Edwards-Cornwall]

In > The Ranger wrote:
> Dawn Lawson > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
>
> Your choice of religion is [thankfully] not government-mandated. We
> chose formula for all three of my daughter-units based on the
> information available to us from sources that we felt offered more
> balanced opinions than those being produced by specialty organizations.
>
> Attempting to use the same tired, old, redundant scare tactics that we
> tanked my daughter-units potential <insert favorite LLL catchphrase>
> or produced mentally-deficient specimens because we didn't exclusively
> bf won't convert us to The Cause any more than it did during that time.
> We chose formula for several reasons, mostly because we saw more
> benefits to using formula than breastmilk.
>
> The Ranger


Why bother with LLL catchphrases? (What are LLL catchphrases anyway?
Does anyone know?) Why not just insert AAP catchphrases. Much more
scientific.

Meredith

[kristi]

(Tina) wrote in message >...
> Clisby Williams > wrote in message >...
> > Sue wrote:
> >
> > >Cheryl S. > wrote in message news:bes69l$8en21
> > >
> > >
> > >>Another INTJ heard from. ;-)
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >If I knew what that meant, I could probably say that I am too. :o)
> > >
> > >--
> > >Sue
> > >mom to three girls
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > Well, of course, because INTJs are cool.
>
> <snip>
> > However, you didn't say what kind of needlework you do.
> >
> > Clisby
>
>
> OK -- I'll admit to being an ENFP, as well as a quilter, beadworker,
> and embroiderer.
>
> Surely there are some other E's at least (if not FP's) out there!
>
> Tina.


Kristi- extended breastfeeder, co-sleeper, INTP, sewer (-ist?),
quilter, owns lots of beads

:)
Kristi

[E]

"Banty" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> says...
> >
> >For me ff was simpler because bf was:
> >1) Sit down
> >2) Plop out breast(s)?
> >3) switch breast
> >4) switch breast
> >5) switch breast
> >etc. alot for hours on end. Both my babies wanted to constantly for
> >hours on end be on the nipple because of supply issues. I gave up on
> >bf with my first and persevered with the help of domperidone with my
> >second.
> >
> >while ff was:
> >
> >1) pour water in bottle
> >2) put formula in bottle
> >3) shake
> >4) feed baby for max 15 min
> >
> >Which required no refrigeration, microwave, pitcher, or measuring
> >cups. It did require a store :-)
>
> Yep.
>
> I did both, and I think the perception varies on what the mother does and
> considers relaxing. Also the milk supply and let down.
>
> If it's feet up watching TV or sitting outside taking in the air and
scenery and
> yammering on the phone to friends that mom loves, sitting and switching
breasts
> is just the ticket.
>
> If more active pursuits are what's satisfying and relaxing to mom, sitting
and
> switching breasts for 1/2 hour or so can be really reaaally sloooooow.
And
> what's hard is what *else* has to be done with the time left over after
> siiiiittting and leetting dooown and relllaaaaxxxing for a loooooong time.
(And
> no - don't say "oh -doncha know you can let the housework go" - I got REAL
TIRED
> OF the clutter and feeling allergic to boot in a dirty, cat-hair filled
house.)
>
> I did nurse, but my experience of it was more like that latter. My
temprament
> isn't one to sit day in day out and look at baby and TV and trees and
grass
> hours and yammer with whoever's hanging out hours in hours out day in day
out.
> And I'm too heavy breasted to set up, hold baby in one arm, hold a
paperback in
> the other.
>
> Banty
>

I've been known to nurse standing up/walking around with DD, not in a sling,
just arm. I've been impressed with how much I can get done at the same time
as nursing if I feel like it. usually though, I do sit. also, my boobs
aren't that huge, so I don't HAVE to have support for them, though I do find
that a good nursing bra helps heaps!
Edith

[E]

"The Ranger" > wrote in message
...
> E > wrote in message
> ...
> [snip]
> > also, expressed bm can be "stored" at room temp. for
> > quite a few hours before "going bad" whereas mixed
> > formula can't be...
>
> I am always surprised at how strongly resilient my daughter-units are at
my
> attempts to do what I think is best or right. Each test often shows they
> will survive into adulthood despite my (and many other well-meaning
adults)
> book-based, doctor-supported, new-age intentions. Go figure.
>
> The Ranger
>

just trying to figure out what you are saying here and how it pertains?

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Clisby Williams > wrote:

> Banty wrote:
>

> >>
> >>I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
> >>avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
> >>wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
> >>personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
> >>are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
> >
> >Banty
> >
> >
> >
>
> I test INTJ also.
>
> Clisby
>

Well, I finally took it this morning -- I came out ENTP.

Can I still play with you guys?

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[dragonlady]

In article >,
"just me" > wrote:

> "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> ...
> > I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
> > avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
> > wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
> > personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
> > are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?
> >
>
>
> Do I hear a thesis cooking?
>
> -Aula
>
>
> ---
> Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03
>
>

I googled just for the heck of it; there are quite a few hits on
parenting and MBTI, but most of it is positive (ie, how to parent) and
based on an understanding of the CHILD'S MBTS, with a few positive
articles about how to understand the mix of "types" in your house and
work with them.

I'd love to read a normative study on how the parent's MBTI (especially
on the E-I spectrum) affects parenting styles, especially as it relates
to breast feeding, co-sleeping, and attachment parenting! I'm not a
social scientist, so I have no desire to do it -- but if anybody wants
to create such a study and publish it, I'd be delighted to read it!
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[H Schinske]

Meredith writes:

>Why bother with LLL catchphrases? (What are LLL catchphrases anyway?
>Does anyone know?)

Listen up now, pom-poms ready!

Gimme an L, gimme an L, gimme an L, L, L,
The L stands for milk and the milk is swell.

--Helen

[just me]

"iphigenia" > wrote in message
...
> just me wrote:
> >> Think small [projects]. Bookmarks, 4x4 inch items. Those tend to
> >> come together quickly and you can actually finish them in the same
> >> year [BTDT]. Also, if you like counted xstitch: consider blackwork
> >> [which is often not in black].
>
> Oh, I *love* blackwork! Had forgotten all about it, but your reminder
> inspired me to go search for patterns online : D
>


Did you find the butterfly with the beadwork? I did that up in a week in a
burgundy with deep burgundy beads. It turned out fantastic!

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

[just me]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> Well, I finally took it this morning -- I came out ENTP.
>
> Can I still play with you guys?
>


Well, *someone* has to start the conversations, don't they? I can't just
sit here and nod sagely while doing my embroidery all day, you know!

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

[just me]

"dragonlady" > wrote in message
...
> I googled just for the heck of it; there are quite a few hits on
> parenting and MBTI, but most of it is positive (ie, how to parent) and
> based on an understanding of the CHILD'S MBTS, with a few positive
> articles about how to understand the mix of "types" in your house and
> work with them.
>
> I'd love to read a normative study on how the parent's MBTI (especially
> on the E-I spectrum) affects parenting styles, especially as it relates
> to breast feeding, co-sleeping, and attachment parenting! I'm not a
> social scientist, so I have no desire to do it -- but if anybody wants
> to create such a study and publish it, I'd be delighted to read it!


I would too. I'd also be interested to see if a decent study could be set
up comparing average population types in the English speaking work V. those
who access usenet at least several times weekly to see if there is a
difference or if we truly are a cross section of the greater society.

-Aula


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03

[Marc]

"Phoebe & Allyson" > wrote in message
...
> just me wrote:
>
> > "Clisby Williams" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >
> >>>I test INTJ. It absolutely fits.
> >>>
> >>>Banty
> >>>
> >>I test INTJ also.
> >>
> >
> > That's three of us.
>
>
> Make it 4. Although I can be an ENTJ if I try really,
> really hard. Since I haven't needed to be one in awhile, I
> remember how much work it is, but not that I enjoy it. ;)
>
> Phoebe *introvert by temperament, extrovert by sheer force
> of will* :)
>
Make it 5, can come out ENTJ if I try, but not really me.
Marc

[thumper]

dragonlady > wrote in message >...
> In article >,
> "just me" > wrote:
>
> > "dragonlady" > wrote in message
> > ...
> > > I'm about to take the Myers-Briggs for the first time (I've actively
> > > avoided it) and am reasonably certain that I'll turn up an "E"; I
> > > wonder if anyone has ever looked at this particular aspect of
> > > personality type and parenting styles? I wonder if E's, for example,
> > > are more likely to breast feed, or use attachment parenting?
> > >
> >
> >
> > Do I hear a thesis cooking?
> >
> > -Aula
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
> > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > Version: 6.0.497 / Virus Database: 296 - Release Date: 7/4/03
> >
> >
>
> I googled just for the heck of it; there are quite a few hits on
> parenting and MBTI, but most of it is positive (ie, how to parent) and
> based on an understanding of the CHILD'S MBTS, with a few positive
> articles about how to understand the mix of "types" in your house and
> work with them.
>
> I'd love to read a normative study on how the parent's MBTI (especially
> on the E-I spectrum) affects parenting styles, especially as it relates
> to breast feeding, co-sleeping, and attachment parenting! I'm not a
> social scientist, so I have no desire to do it -- but if anybody wants
> to create such a study and publish it, I'd be delighted to read it!

I'm an INFP. I see your point about "I"'s and attachment parenting,
but in my case, I never felt that being with DS was draining by
comparison to grown up people. It hardly felt like he was a separate
person when he was a baby. I'm not a "typical" (whatever that is,
LOL) AP practitioner, but did what I could. DS was almost always in
arms and I bf'ed to 22m. I was afraid to co-sleep, but often did and
still do (he is almost 3). OTOH, sometimes I *would* really like to
go to the bathroom by myself!

Being a "P" is not very useful for a work-out-of-the-house mom, but I
can't change what I am! I've found the description of INFP to be
pretty accurate for me, but I wonder if it's like reading my
horoscope?

Take care,
Lisa

[Sue]

Clisby Williams > wrote in message
Anyhow, you
> answer a bunch of questions and are assessed on these characteristics:
>
> I/E introverted/extroverted
> N/S intuitive/sensing
> T/F thinking/feeling
> J/P judging/perceiving

I do needlework, but it has been years since I have had the time. I am very
much an introvert and have to have my alone time. I don't know about where I
would fall with the rest. Do you happen to know the website it is, so I can
see just where I fall?
--
Sue
mom to three girls

[Chookie]

In article >,
Clisby Williams > wrote:

> I/E introverted/extroverted
> N/S intuitive/sensing
> T/F thinking/feeling
> J/P judging/perceiving
>
> I took it at work once - I can't remember if it was a team-building
> exercise or something
> else. There are web-based tests, too - I took one of those once and
> also came out
> as INTJ.
>
> However, you didn't say what kind of needlework you do.

I am an ENTP and avoid needlework! Am I still allowed here?

--
Chookie -- Sydney, Australia
(Replace "foulspambegone" with "optushome" to reply)

"...children should continue to be breastfed... for up to two years of age
or beyond." -- Innocenti Declaration, Florence, 1 August 1990

[Karen]

On Sun, 13 Jul 2003 14:38:24 GMT, "just me" >
wrote:

>I have come to think that children have their temperaments and DS' is very
>social. So, we make our sacrifices to ensure that he has opportunities to
>play and interact with kids regularly just like some parents make sacrifices
>in the sleep or financial depts., among others. I have no doubt, however,
>that DS will grow up quite comfortable with being alone and spending long
>periods of time alone doing whatever as well, because he has been exposed to
>it as the parental life style of choice. That may be a leg up on some other
>kids out there, who knows.


Interesting topic. I'm dealing with this very issue with my 13
1/2-year-old. My husband and I are both middle-of-the-road - quite
social but also fine with spending time at home.

My son, however, is quite painfully shy. He seems to make friends just
fine at school, but very seldom will invite anyone to come here or get
an invitation to go to someone else's house. He's played on sports
teams all his life and is a great team motivator, leader, and
competitor, but never takes the relationships with his teammates into
friendships off the field. He has one best buddy that he's known since
preschool, but that's really the only close friendship he has.

He's smart, funny, nice-looking and socially appropriate - so I don't
think he's being rejected by his peers, but he's very reserved in his
interactions with other kids and I suspect (from what I've seen) that
he comes across 'stand-offish' - like if another kid talks to him
he'll answer them politely enough but then not pursue the conversation
or make the effort to speak to that person again.

I've tried to point out what he's doing, but it's a tough thing for
him to understand, and he does feel sad that he doesn't have more
social interaction. His younger brother, whom he has relied upon for
friendship all his life, is 11 and starting to spend more time with
his friends, leaving my older one to spend more and more time alone.

This summer, when he's not been in camp, he's just been hanging around
the house playing video games, reading and watching TV by himself. I
started encouraging him to ask one friend from his junior high music
class to come over this week and he told me, "kids don't hang out
together like that." I said, "Yes, they do, but you don't see it
because you're not doing it." Last night, when I pushed him about
extending the invitation, he got really angry at me and finally broke
down crying: "I don't know why I can't do it! What's wrong with me?!"

Poor guy. :-( My heart was breaking for him. I don't know at this
point whether to completely back off and just let him be a "hermit" or
keep encouraging him to put himself out on the line a little bit. Not
having been a shy kid, I don't understand the mindset - is it fear of
rejection that keeps shy kids from taking the initiative to make a
friend?

I'd appreciate any help/thoughts/feedback.

Karen


--
The Orange Cat: Calendar, advice & tips for busy families in the San Gabriel Valley
www.theorangecat.org

[dragonlady]

In article >,
Karen > wrote:


> This summer, when he's not been in camp, he's just been hanging around
> the house playing video games, reading and watching TV by himself. I
> started encouraging him to ask one friend from his junior high music
> class to come over this week and he told me, "kids don't hang out
> together like that." I said, "Yes, they do, but you don't see it
> because you're not doing it." Last night, when I pushed him about
> extending the invitation, he got really angry at me and finally broke
> down crying: "I don't know why I can't do it! What's wrong with me?!"
>
> Poor guy. :-( My heart was breaking for him. I don't know at this
> point whether to completely back off and just let him be a "hermit" or
> keep encouraging him to put himself out on the line a little bit. Not
> having been a shy kid, I don't understand the mindset - is it fear of
> rejection that keeps shy kids from taking the initiative to make a
> friend?
>
> I'd appreciate any help/thoughts/feedback.
>

You may be giving him the message that there is something WRONG with
enjoying his own company; if he doesn't seem unhappy, there may not be
a real problem.

This conversation started as a discussion about the Myers-Briggs types.
The difference between Extroverts and Introverts on that scale has
nothing to do with shyness -- it has to do with what it is you do to
energize yourself. Do you enjoy spending time with lots of people,
being at parties, do you find yourself wanting to talk to others to sort
stuff out? --you could even be very shy and have a hard time meeting
people, but if you are energized by that sort of contact, you are an
extrovert on that scale. On the other hand, if you enjoy spending time
alone, if sitting by yourself, or possibly with one close friend, you
are an introvert. Even if you are GOOD at meeting people and have lots
of friends, if your idea of how to recharge your batteries is to spend
time by yourself, you are an introvert on that scale. (It's far more
complex than that, and my own understanding is limited, but that's close
enough for this discussion.)

It sounds like your son may be an introvert -- being raised by an
extrovert.

I've been thinking about that this week, and am wondering if those of us
in THAT position -- E's raising I's -- aren't actually more in danger of
doing our children a disservice than the other way around. My oldest
is pretty much in the middle on that scale, and I think I didn't give
her enough space to just be by herself. I wonder if I didn't push her
into trying to "make friends" when, in fact, she'd have been happier
with more time alone and a few close friends. My son, on the other
hand, is a strong E who is shy and not always socially appropriate -- I
think I haven't helped him out much, either, as I think I'd assumed he
LIKED being by himself when, in fact, he needs more time with groups of
people.

When we use words like "hermit" or "recluse" or even "shy", I think we
give our kids the impression that there IS something wrong with a person
who just likes being alone.

I guess the question becomes, is your son unhappy because he WANTS to
spend more time around other people his age, but doesn't know how to do
it? Or is he unhappy because he's been convinced that he SHOULD want to
spend more time around other people his own age? At this point, teasing
out the difference may be extremely difficult!

Good luck with this; I think parent/child differences of this sort may
be more prevelant than any of us like to think about -- and that we all
deal with "problems" that are not real problems, but just differences of
style.

meh
--
Children won't care how much you know until they know how much you care

[Banty]

In article >,
dragonlady says...
>
>In article >,
> Karen > wrote:
>
>
>> This summer, when he's not been in camp, he's just been hanging around
>> the house playing video games, reading and watching TV by himself. I
>> started encouraging him to ask one friend from his junior high music
>> class to come over this week and he told me, "kids don't hang out
>> together like that." I said, "Yes, they do, but you don't see it
>> because you're not doing it." Last night, when I pushed him about
>> extending the invitation, he got really angry at me and finally broke
>> down crying: "I don't know why I can't do it! What's wrong with me?!"
>>
>> Poor guy. :-( My heart was breaking for him. I don't know at this
>> point whether to completely back off and just let him be a "hermit" or
>> keep encouraging him to put himself out on the line a little bit. Not
>> having been a shy kid, I don't understand the mindset - is it fear of
>> rejection that keeps shy kids from taking the initiative to make a
>> friend?
>>
>> I'd appreciate any help/thoughts/feedback.
>>
>
>You may be giving him the message that there is something WRONG with
>enjoying his own company; if he doesn't seem unhappy, there may not be
>a real problem.

Yep - she needs to consider if he's *truly* unhappy alone, or is just responding
to the expectation that he *should* be unhappy if he's not hanging with friends.
He may be unhappy that he can't live, um, around to others' expectations.

::snip good stuff::

>
>It sounds like your son may be an introvert -- being raised by an
>extrovert.
>
>I've been thinking about that this week, and am wondering if those of us
>in THAT position -- E's raising I's -- aren't actually more in danger of
>doing our children a disservice than the other way around. My oldest
>is pretty much in the middle on that scale, and I think I didn't give
>her enough space to just be by herself. I wonder if I didn't push her
>into trying to "make friends" when, in fact, she'd have been happier
>with more time alone and a few close friends. My son, on the other
>hand, is a strong E who is shy and not always socially appropriate -- I
>think I haven't helped him out much, either, as I think I'd assumed he
>LIKED being by himself when, in fact, he needs more time with groups of
>people.
>
>When we use words like "hermit" or "recluse" or even "shy", I think we
>give our kids the impression that there IS something wrong with a person
>who just likes being alone.

The one I always got was "come out of (my) shell"..

>
>I guess the question becomes, is your son unhappy because he WANTS to
>spend more time around other people his age, but doesn't know how to do
>it? Or is he unhappy because he's been convinced that he SHOULD want to
>spend more time around other people his own age? At this point, teasing
>out the difference may be extremely difficult!

Exactly!

>
>Good luck with this; I think parent/child differences of this sort may
>be more prevelant than any of us like to think about -- and that we all
>deal with "problems" that are not real problems, but just differences of
>style.

Spot on advice.

Another thing extroverted parents of introverted kids need to watch out for
other than pathologizing their child's temprament - expecting the child to
provide interactive personal company for themselves more than the child
comfortably can.

Banty

[Ruth Shear]

G'day

Chookie wrote:

> In article >,
> Clisby Williams > wrote:
>
> > I/E introverted/extroverted
> > N/S intuitive/sensing
> > T/F thinking/feeling
> > J/P judging/perceiving
> >
>
> I am an ENTP and avoid needlework! Am I still allowed here?

Hey I'm ENTP too. Funny!

DrRuth

[E]

is there a web page to take this "test" at? how do you find out what you
are? I knew years ago, but it's been so long I've forgotten...
Edith
nak

"Ruth Shear" > wrote in message
...
> G'day
>
> Chookie wrote:
>
> > In article >,
> > Clisby Williams > wrote:
> >
> > > I/E introverted/extroverted
> > > N/S intuitive/sensing
> > > T/F thinking/feeling
> > > J/P judging/perceiving
> > >
> >
> > I am an ENTP and avoid needlework! Am I still allowed here?
>
> Hey I'm ENTP too. Funny!
>
> DrRuth

[Karen]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:52:10 GMT, dragonlady
> wrote:

>It sounds like your son may be an introvert -- being raised by an
>extrovert.

Interestingly enough, when I took the test in college - ahem, 20 years
ago<g> - I was an Introvert (though close to borderline). After
choosing a career where I basically HAD to become comfortable
interacting with people constantly I tested again a few years ago and
found I was now an Extrovert, although also fairly close to the
middle.

So - I guess that shows that people can change, at least a little,
through circumstances and maturing!


>
>I've been thinking about that this week, and am wondering if those of us
>in THAT position -- E's raising I's -- aren't actually more in danger of
>doing our children a disservice than the other way around. My oldest
>is pretty much in the middle on that scale, and I think I didn't give
>her enough space to just be by herself. I wonder if I didn't push her
>into trying to "make friends" when, in fact, she'd have been happier
>with more time alone and a few close friends. My son, on the other
>hand, is a strong E who is shy and not always socially appropriate -- I
>think I haven't helped him out much, either, as I think I'd assumed he
>LIKED being by himself when, in fact, he needs more time with groups of
>people.
>
>When we use words like "hermit" or "recluse" or even "shy", I think we
>give our kids the impression that there IS something wrong with a person
>who just likes being alone.

That's true, and you make some really good point. Thanks.

I guess it's programmed in us to feel badly when we see our kids
spending a lot of time alone. Maybe it's because people who tend to do
those things like "going postal" are invariably described as "loners"
and people "who keep to themselves" - it gives the impression that
isolation is dangerous behavior.

I do think that making friends and learning to be at least basically
comfortable in groups is important, however. But maybe he gets plenty
of that at school and during his downtime being alone is just fine
with him. I know I still am very happy being alone myself, though I
also enjoy socializing.


>
>I guess the question becomes, is your son unhappy because he WANTS to
>spend more time around other people his age, but doesn't know how to do
>it? Or is he unhappy because he's been convinced that he SHOULD want to
>spend more time around other people his own age? At this point, teasing
>out the difference may be extremely difficult!


Yes, it's very difficult. He's fine when his brother is home to keep
him company. And he's fine amusing himself for a certain amount of
time, but he gets bored and lonely eventually.


>Good luck with this; I think parent/child differences of this sort may
>be more prevalent than any of us like to think about -- and that we all
>deal with "problems" that are not real problems, but just differences of
>style.


Very true. I definitely don't want to make him feel like a pariah - I
think I'll back off for now. He will be busy at baseball camp for the
next couple of weeks. Thanks for your thoughts!

Karen

--
The Orange Cat: Calendar, advice & tips for busy families in the San Gabriel Valley
www.theorangecat.org

[Karen]

On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 14:06:20 -0400,
(mountainspring) wrote:

>
>I can really relate to your son. I'm the type of person who only needs
>one close friend and once I have somebody in that role, I generally
>don't make an effort to get to know anybody else. This has been true as
>long ago as I can remember. However, I also moved around a lot as a
>kid and *had* to learn how to make new friends. Nevertheless, it was
>always hard work for me to do, and its not something that has gotten
>significantly easier with time.
>
>One thing I resented as a kid (and still resent as an adult) was the
>suggestion by others that I "needed" to make more friends. It seems to
>me that our society is very biased towards extroverts, and that being
>extroverted is the only "acceptable" way to be. While I was a bit
>unhappy as a child being so introverted, as it seems like your son may
>be, I think now the source of that unhappiness was not my introversion
>itself, but the message from others that my worth was measured by the
>number of friends I had. Personally, I see nothing wrong with being
>introverted or a hermit, so long as one is happy and comfortable being
>that way. It took me years to overcome the negative messages about my
>introversion I received while growing up, and now that I have finally
>accepted myself as I am, introversion and all, I am much happier.

Wow - that's really good to know. I was fairly introverted as a kid
and I still derive a lot of energy from a rich inner life, which I
know he does, too.


>My best advice to you would be to encourage your son without pushing
>him...a very fine balance, I know :-) If he expresses interest in
>participating in some social situation, help him do it, but don't make
>him do something he doesn't want to do or doesn't feel comfortable
>doing. Contrary to conventional wisdom, forcing somebody into doing
>something they are not comfortable with doesn't necessarily make it
>easier for them in the long run (at least, it didn't for me). He
>obviously has fairly good social skills judging by his interactions in
>school and on sports teams, but maybe just doesn't have the *need* to
>make friends like you expect. Let him take things at his own pace and
>based on his own needs.


Thanks for your perspective, Kate. I was hoping to hear from someone
who could relate to him. He does participate in plenty of things
voluntarily, so he's not truly a "hermit" in that sense. Good luck
with your little extrovert. :-)

Karen
--
The Orange Cat: Calendar, advice & tips for busy families in the San Gabriel Valley
www.theorangecat.org

[Sue]

I had asked the same thing, and I tried to do a search. All I came up with
is to purchase the test. Maybe someone knows and will answer.
--
Sue
mom to three girls

E > wrote in message
...
> is there a web page to take this "test" at? how do you find out what you
> are? I knew years ago, but it's been so long I've forgotten...
> Edith
> nak
>
> "Ruth Shear" > wrote in message
> ...
> > G'day
> >
> > Chookie wrote:
> >
> > > In article >,
> > > Clisby Williams > wrote:
> > >
> > > > I/E introverted/extroverted
> > > > N/S intuitive/sensing
> > > > T/F thinking/feeling
> > > > J/P judging/perceiving
> > > >
> > >
> > > I am an ENTP and avoid needlework! Am I still allowed here?
> >
> > Hey I'm ENTP too. Funny!
> >
> > DrRuth
>
>

[Iuil]

"Sidheag McCormack" wrote
>
> Try this one:
>
> http://www.humanmetrics.com/
>
> (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> also be interesting to some.)

ISTJ. *Very* strong I, with no qualms whatsoever about NIP :-) - maybe
that's the J in me? And I abhor crafty needlework in all shapes and forms.

Jean

--
"And he said:
Your children are not your children. They are the sons and daughters of
Life's longing for itself. They come through you but not from you, and
though they are with you, yet they belong not to you." Khalil Gibran

Return address is unread. Replies to <firstnamelastname> @eircom.net.

[Astromum]

Sidheag McCormack wrote:
>
> Try this one:
>
> http://www.humanmetrics.com/
>
> (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> also be interesting to some.)
>

Finally dove into this thread to see what's going on down here
in the caves of Usenet, and found this neat test. Of course, I
had to take it, and I am eNFj, lots of N, only 1% e, and equal
amounts of F and j. The analysis is really spot on.

Seems I am a rare personality: idealist teacher. But I knew that ;)

--
-- Ilse
mom to Olaf (07/15/2002)
TTC #2
"What's the use of brains if you are a girl?"
Aletta Jacobs, first Dutch woman to receive a PhD

[Circe]

Sidheag McCormack wrote:
> sburke9368 writes:
>
> > I had asked the same thing, and I tried to do a search. All I came
> up > with is to purchase the test. Maybe someone knows and will
> answer. -- > Sue mom to three girls
>
> Try this one:
>
> http://www.humanmetrics.com/
>
I came out as an ENFJ (mild, moderate, mild, moderate). When I clicked on
the Keirsey description, the title was "Portrait of the Teacher". Given that
I make my living as an educator, I found that pretty appropriate!
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"How a seller can improve their home's value" -- newspaper headline

What does it all mean? I have *no* idea. But it's my life and I like it.

[H Schinske]

Barbara ) wrote:

>I came out as an ENFJ (mild, moderate, mild, moderate).

This time I came out as an ISTJ, which I don't think fits very well! (I seem to
come out different every time I take this test ...) I liked the bit about
"Those who take this test also take tests." Very Zen, or something.

Incidentally, my horoscope today told me to beware of playing Mother Goose.
What the hotel does that mean? I am not to take to the air on a very fine
gander?

--Helen

[lizzard woman]

"H Schinske" > wrote in message
...
> Barbara ) wrote:
>
> >I came out as an ENFJ (mild, moderate, mild, moderate).
>
> This time I came out as an ISTJ, which I don't think fits very well! (I
seem to
> come out different every time I take this test ...) I liked the bit about
> "Those who take this test also take tests." Very Zen, or something.
>
> Incidentally, my horoscope today told me to beware of playing Mother
Goose.
> What the hotel does that mean? I am not to take to the air on a very fine
> gander?

Okay this made me laugh very loudly.. both the "hotel" part and the second
part!

I think it means to stop collecting poems into an anthology. Since so many
people do that on an every day basis, its probably wise that the horoscope
cautioned against it.

--
sharon, momma to savannah and willow (11/11/94)

[blacksalt]

Iuil wrote:

> ISTJ. *Very* strong I, with no qualms whatsoever about NIP :-) - maybe
> that's the J in me? And I abhor crafty needlework in all shapes and forms.
>

Also an ISTJ. I was amused by one quote that sums up ISTJ: my word is my
bond.
I've had that on my keychain for years.
blacksalt

[Clisby Williams]

H Schinske wrote:

>Sharon ) wrote:
>
>
>
>>Okay this made me laugh very loudly.. both the "hotel" part and the second
>>part!
>>
>>
>
>:-)
>
>Mother Goose rhymes have been known to make people laugh, too. Perhaps this is
>a bad thing (today).
>
>I got the "What the hotel?" expression from the mother of one of my college
>boyfriends.
>
>--Helen
>
>

I'm still kicking myself that I didn't buy the "Christian Mother Goose"
at a Goodwill book sale
here in Atlanta a few years ago. The one that I remember started out:

Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep
And can't tell where to find them
But Jesus knows ....

Clisby

[Clisby Williams]

H Schinske wrote:

>>I'm still kicking myself that I didn't buy the "Christian Mother Goose"
>>at a Goodwill book sale
>>here in Atlanta a few years ago. The one that I remember started out:
>>
>>Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep
>>And can't tell where to find them
>>But Jesus knows ....
>>
>>Clisby
>>
>>
>
>You can find a copy on http://www.abebooks.com .
>
>--Helen
>
>

For 50 cents?

Clisby

[Belphoebe]

"blacksalt" > wrote in message
...
> Iuil wrote:
>
> > ISTJ. *Very* strong I, with no qualms whatsoever about NIP :-) - maybe
> > that's the J in me? And I abhor crafty needlework in all shapes and
forms.
> >
>
> Also an ISTJ. I was amused by one quote that sums up ISTJ: my word is my
> bond.
> I've had that on my keychain for years.
> blacksalt

Say, is anyone else here an INFJ? Supposedly it's a very unusual combo. Go
figure. :)

Belphoebe

[Kate R]

blacksalt > wrote in message >...
> Iuil wrote:
>
> > ISTJ. *Very* strong I, with no qualms whatsoever about NIP :-) - maybe
> > that's the J in me? And I abhor crafty needlework in all shapes and forms.
> >
>
> Also an ISTJ. I was amused by one quote that sums up ISTJ: my word is my
> bond.
> I've had that on my keychain for years.

And add a third ISTJ. I never had problems with NIP, either. Both of
my had long catch up periods, so if I hadn't NIP, I wouldn't have been
able to keep up with all of my other responsibilities!

Kate R.

[Meredith Edwards-Cornwall]

Okay, I finally dug up my results from when I had this test administered
several years ago by a friend who was finishing her masters in psych and
had to take a testing class.

Am I the only ENTP here? It says "independent, non-conforming and
sometimes a little rebellious and confrontational." Guess that's why I
have no problem NIP. ;-)

Meredith
Ms. Rebellious

[iphigenia]

Belphoebe wrote:
>>
>> Say, is anyone else here an INFJ? Supposedly it's a very unusual
>> combo. Go figure. :)

So is INTJ, but we do seem to be here in force! Maybe we just naturally
congregate in groups like this.


--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net

[kristi]

Karen > wrote in message >...
> On Wed, 16 Jul 2003 16:52:10 GMT, dragonlady
> > wrote:
>
> >It sounds like your son may be an introvert -- being raised by an
> >extrovert.
>
> Interestingly enough, when I took the test in college - ahem, 20 years
> ago<g> - I was an Introvert (though close to borderline). After
> choosing a career where I basically HAD to become comfortable
> interacting with people constantly I tested again a few years ago and
> found I was now an Extrovert, although also fairly close to the
> middle.
>
> So - I guess that shows that people can change, at least a little,
> through circumstances and maturing!
>
This is interesting. I am a very strong I- INTP. But many people who
hear that who work with me are surprised by that, because I have
learned to behave, at least in some contexts, like an E. So I can go
to a cocktail party and chit-chat, but I don't like doing it and it
takes a lot of emotional energy for me. What I was told by the team
that gave us the test (along with a bunch of others-- it was part of
an executive leadership development course) that your basic
preferences don't change, but your behavior might.

Kristi

[H Schinske]

>I'm still kicking myself that I didn't buy the "Christian Mother Goose"
>at a Goodwill book sale
>here in Atlanta a few years ago. The one that I remember started out:
>
>Little Bo-Peep has lost her sheep
>And can't tell where to find them
>But Jesus knows ....
>
>Clisby

You can find a copy on http://www.abebooks.com .

--Helen

[H Schinske]

>>You can find a copy on http://www.abebooks.com .
>>
>>--Helen
>>
>>
>
>For 50 cents?

Well, $1.08 and up, plus postage. About as good a deal as you can expect
online!

--Helen

[Circe]

Astromum wrote:
> Finally dove into this thread to see what's going on down here
> in the caves of Usenet, and found this neat test. Of course, I
> had to take it, and I am eNFj, lots of N, only 1% e, and equal
> amounts of F and j. The analysis is really spot on.
>
> Seems I am a rare personality: idealist teacher. But I knew that ;)

Looks like we are very similar--I had lots of N, too! And I'm also a
teacher.
--
Be well, Barbara
(Julian [7/22/97], Aurora [7/19/99], and Vernon's [3/2/02] mom)
See us at http://photos.yahoo.com/guavaln

This week's special at the English Language Butcher Shop:
"How a seller can improve their home's value" -- newspaper headline

What does it all mean? I have *no* idea. But it's my life and I like it.

[Astromum]

Circe wrote:
> Astromum wrote:
>
>>Finally dove into this thread to see what's going on down here
>>in the caves of Usenet, and found this neat test. Of course, I
>>had to take it, and I am eNFj, lots of N, only 1% e, and equal
>>amounts of F and j. The analysis is really spot on.
>>
>>Seems I am a rare personality: idealist teacher. But I knew that ;)
>
>
> Looks like we are very similar--I had lots of N, too! And I'm also a
> teacher.

I'm not actually a teacher, although as a scientist, part of the job
is to tell people what you do and how. I did always feel strongly drawn
to teaching in high schools. AAMOF it was my fall-back option in case
I couldn't get a job in science (still is, actually).

I am very idealistic though, or actually, more a perfectionist (but
I think that is so close, they don't distinguish them). I've been
known to drive DH nuts with it, he is totally the opposite... ;)

--
-- Ilse
mom to Olaf (07/15/2002)
TTC #2
"What's the use of brains if you are a girl?"
Aletta Jacobs, first Dutch woman to receive a PhD

[Ruth Shear]

G'day

Meredith Edwards-Cornwall wrote:

> Am I the only ENTP here? It says "independent, non-conforming and
> sometimes a little rebellious and confrontational." Guess that's why I
> have no problem NIP. ;-)

Haha. Chookie and I are both ENTP too. Neither of us seem to have NIP
problems.

DrRuth

[Irene]

Sidheag McCormack > wrote in message >...

> Try this one:
>
> http://www.humanmetrics.com/
>
> (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> also be interesting to some.)
>
> Sidheag
> edd Oct 13th

Well, I tried it twice, since there were a bunch of questions I wasn't
really sure about how to answer. The first time I came out a ISFP,
and the second time as INTP (reversing all the original questionable
answers). I find it interesting that INTP is described as "Architect"
since that's what I am! (The descriptions seemed closer, though both
rung different chords with me.)

Any other INTP's or ISFP's? I think there aren't any other architects
here, fwiw. (I'm not counting Barbara/Circe's husband, since he
doesn't post.)

I used to do needlepoint, but haven't in many, many years.

And for the record, I have no problem with NIP.

What does this prove? I have no idea...

Irene

[Laura Faussone]

Irene wrote:

> Sidheag McCormack > wrote in message >...
>
> > Try this one:
> >
> > http://www.humanmetrics.com/
> >
> > (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> > also be interesting to some.)
> >
> > Sidheag
> > edd Oct 13th
>
>
> Any other INTP's or ISFP's? I think there aren't any other architects
> here, fwiw. (I'm not counting Barbara/Circe's husband, since he
> doesn't post.)
>
> I used to do needlepoint, but haven't in many, many years.
>
> And for the record, I have no problem with NIP.

delurking ...

I tested as an INTP several years back when everyone in my workplace was required to take the test and have
an all-day "team build" going over the results. :-/

I quilt and x-stitch and also, once I got the hang of BF, have no problem NIP. My husband once made the
comment "You'd just whip those out anywhere, wouldn't you?" ;-)

Laura
Mom to Allison, 4, Sophia, 2, and Edison, 2 months

[L]

In article >, "Belphoebe"
> wrote:

> > > Say, is anyone else here an INFJ? Supposedly it's a very unusual combo.
> > Go
> > > figure. :)
> > >
> > > Belphoebe
> > >
> > >
> > I am - I thought there were only 2%?
>
> Yup. Good thing we prefer small groups. :)
>
> Belphoebe

I'm one too (a INFJ). Very strong on the 'I'.

Prob why I prefer posting in AM. It has a 'smaller' group feel, than the
other higher traffic MK groups <g>

L

[blacksalt]

Kate R wrote:

> And add a third ISTJ. I never had problems with NIP, either. Both of
> my had long catch up periods, so if I hadn't NIP, I wouldn't have been
> able to keep up with all of my other responsibilities!
>
> Kate R.

ISTJ's aren't rare and one site said that it was the most common pattern
for US presidents. I'm waiting for an ISTJ president who NIPs.
blacksalt
ex-NIPper

[Cheryl]

On Fri, 18 Jul 2003 13:01:01 GMT, "Belphoebe" > wrote:

>
>"blacksalt" > wrote in message
...
>> Iuil wrote:
>>
>> > ISTJ. *Very* strong I, with no qualms whatsoever about NIP :-) - maybe
>> > that's the J in me? And I abhor crafty needlework in all shapes and
>forms.
>> >
>>
>> Also an ISTJ. I was amused by one quote that sums up ISTJ: my word is my
>> bond.
>> I've had that on my keychain for years.
>> blacksalt
>
>Say, is anyone else here an INFJ? Supposedly it's a very unusual combo. Go
>figure. :)
>
Yep, me. I was pretty surprised, on first reading it doesn't sound
like me but then I looked at it again and it kind of does.


--
Cheryl

DS#1 (Mar 99), DS#2 (Oct 00)
DD born 30 Jul 02

[llama mama]

Candio > wrote in
s.com:

> On 18 Jul 2003, Karen > wrote in
> :
>
>> On 18 Jul 2003 10:53:18 -0700, (kristi) wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>This is interesting. I am a very strong I- INTP.
>>
>> I think I first tested as an INFP and then later came out as an ENFJ
>> - so I changed in two categories!
>
> Stop taking tests and start raising your little 'tards to be
> functional in society.

unlike Candio's parents...

--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

[Kate R]

blacksalt > wrote in message >...
>
> ISTJ's aren't rare and one site said that it was the most common pattern
> for US presidents.

I think that I've seen that they are 6%-10% of the general population,
which is what you'd expect. However, I've also read that female ISTJs
are not common. It's considered a "macho" personality. Why? I have
no idea. I suppose the reserved, listening type of person does not
fit the sterotype of what a female should be like.

Of course, I grew up in a large, loud, rule-breaking family so my
whole perception is off, anyway.

>I'm waiting for an ISTJ president who NIPs.

That would be an interesting president. Can you just imagine the
press conferences?

"Oh, excuse me. The baby wants to switch sides now. Talk amongst
yourselves!"

Kate R.

[kristi]

Laura Faussone > wrote in message >...
> Irene wrote:
>
> > Sidheag McCormack > wrote in message >...
> >
> > > Try this one:
> > >
> > > http://www.humanmetrics.com/
> > >
> > > (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> > > also be interesting to some.)
> > >
> > > Sidheag
> > > edd Oct 13th
> >
> >
> > Any other INTP's or ISFP's? I think there aren't any other architects
> > here, fwiw. (I'm not counting Barbara/Circe's husband, since he
> > doesn't post.)
> >
> > I used to do needlepoint, but haven't in many, many years.
> >
> > And for the record, I have no problem with NIP.
>
> delurking ...
>
> I tested as an INTP several years back when everyone in my workplace was required to take the test and have
> an all-day "team build" going over the results. :-/
>
> I quilt and x-stitch and also, once I got the hang of BF, have no problem NIP. My husband once made the
> comment "You'd just whip those out anywhere, wouldn't you?" ;-)
>
> Laura
> Mom to Allison, 4, Sophia, 2, and Edison, 2 months

I'm an INTP, as mentioned earlier. I work as a lawyer.

Kristi (who machine sews but avoids handwork because of bad wrists)

[Irene]

(kristi) wrote in message >...
> Laura Faussone > wrote in message >...
> > Irene wrote:
> >
> > > Sidheag McCormack > wrote in message >...
> > >
> > > > Try this one:
> > > >
> > > > http://www.humanmetrics.com/
> > > >
> > > > (Jung typology test is what you want, but some of the other stuff might
> > > > also be interesting to some.)
> > > >
> > > > Sidheag
> > > > edd Oct 13th
> > >
> > >
> > > Any other INTP's or ISFP's? I think there aren't any other architects
> > > here, fwiw. (I'm not counting Barbara/Circe's husband, since he
> > > doesn't post.)
> > >
> > > I used to do needlepoint, but haven't in many, many years.
> > >
> > > And for the record, I have no problem with NIP.
> >
> > delurking ...
> >
> > I tested as an INTP several years back when everyone in my workplace was required to take the test and have
> > an all-day "team build" going over the results. :-/
> >
> > I quilt and x-stitch and also, once I got the hang of BF, have no problem NIP. My husband once made the
> > comment "You'd just whip those out anywhere, wouldn't you?" ;-)
> >
> > Laura
> > Mom to Allison, 4, Sophia, 2, and Edison, 2 months
>
> I'm an INTP, as mentioned earlier. I work as a lawyer.
>
> Kristi (who machine sews but avoids handwork because of bad wrists)

Oops - I missed that! It's hard to keep track of all the posts,
especially when it's a new terminology that you are just learning.

I did find it funny that ISFP (the other thing I tested as) is
described as a Composer, since in some ways it is very similar to
being an architect.

Irene