question for medical professionals about feet

[Hillary Israeli]

OK, this is stupid, but I really am curious about what those of you on
"the human side" think of this, because I think it's absurd but what do I
know about people's feet?

At our local Gymboree Play and Music center, staff encourages the children
(age 0-4 years) to run barefoot on the mats and equipment, because it
helps them from slipping and it is easier to climb and so forth. However,
"due to complaints from some of the parents," it was recently made
mandatory that *adults* wear socks in the playroom. So the children are
barefoot, but the adults wear socks. I asked what the point of that was,
and was informed that "the kid's feet don't have any sweat glands, so it's
not a problem for them to be barefoot, but the adult's feet sweat, so it's
not good for them to be barefoot." I asked if they had consulted a medical
professional about this and was informed that yes, an RN gave them the
information which helped them to formulate their new policy.

Frankly, I find it extremely annoying, because *I* am going to slip and
fall on my ass one of these days on those slippery mats with socks on! I
can't imagine how *my* feet put anyone at a greater risk of a problem than
the feet of G-d-knows-how-many-kids per day do! I first of all do not
believe for one second that the feet of children do not have sweat glands.
Secondly, I don't understand why the ability of feet to sweat would be an
issue. I mean, no adult I know goes around profusely sweating from the
feet to the point of leaving sweat marks on the floor during Gymboree-type
activity, anyway. So, this leaves us with questions about possible public
health concerns. Sure, people can have foot fungus or viruses which cause
warts... those people of course should be courteous and keep their feet
covered! But I don't believe children are immune to those problems. I know
that the gym where my son took swimming last year had some kind of
athlete's foot outbreak related to the family changing room, and a lot of
kids were affected (although thankfully not mine!)

What do any lurking medical professionals think of this policy? Is there
ANY reason it actually makes sense, other than that the Gymboree people
were trying to appease a vocal and stupid faction?


--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[iphigenia]

Hillary Israeli wrote:
>>
>> What do any lurking medical professionals think of this policy? Is
>> there ANY reason it actually makes sense, other than that the
>> Gymboree people were trying to appease a vocal and stupid faction?
>>

Clearly I'm not a medical professional (come to think of it, I'm not
anything professionally...). But I have met plenty of 0-4 year olds with
stinky feet; doesn't that come from bacteria eating sweat?

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net

[toto]

On Fri, 11 Jul 2003 19:04:26 -0600, "iphigenia"
> wrote:

>Hillary Israeli wrote:
>>>
>>> What do any lurking medical professionals think of this policy? Is
>>> there ANY reason it actually makes sense, other than that the
>>> Gymboree people were trying to appease a vocal and stupid faction?
>>>
>
>Clearly I'm not a medical professional (come to think of it, I'm not
>anything professionally...). But I have met plenty of 0-4 year olds with
>stinky feet; doesn't that come from bacteria eating sweat?

Also, since the bacteria like the moist atmosphere created when people
wear shoes and socks, it stands to reason to me that barefoot is
better for everyone.

I don't have any medical information to back me up, but I found
nothing online to suggest that children have less sweat glands in
their feet than adults do.


--
Dorothy

There is no sound, no cry in all the world
that can be heard unless someone listens ..
Outer Limits

[kereru]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> OK, this is stupid, but I really am curious about what those of you on
> "the human side" think of this, because I think it's absurd but what do I
> know about people's feet?
>
> At our local Gymboree Play and Music center, staff encourages the children
> (age 0-4 years) to run barefoot on the mats and equipment, because it
> helps them from slipping and it is easier to climb and so forth. However,
> "due to complaints from some of the parents," it was recently made
> mandatory that *adults* wear socks in the playroom. So the children are
> barefoot, but the adults wear socks. I asked what the point of that was,
> and was informed that "the kid's feet don't have any sweat glands, so it's
> not a problem for them to be barefoot, but the adult's feet sweat, so it's
> not good for them to be barefoot." I asked if they had consulted a medical
> professional about this and was informed that yes, an RN gave them the
> information which helped them to formulate their new policy.
>
> Frankly, I find it extremely annoying, because *I* am going to slip and
> fall on my ass one of these days on those slippery mats with socks on! I
> can't imagine how *my* feet put anyone at a greater risk of a problem than
> the feet of G-d-knows-how-many-kids per day do! I first of all do not
> believe for one second that the feet of children do not have sweat glands.
> Secondly, I don't understand why the ability of feet to sweat would be an
> issue. I mean, no adult I know goes around profusely sweating from the
> feet to the point of leaving sweat marks on the floor during Gymboree-type
> activity, anyway. So, this leaves us with questions about possible public
> health concerns. Sure, people can have foot fungus or viruses which cause
> warts... those people of course should be courteous and keep their feet
> covered! But I don't believe children are immune to those problems. I know
> that the gym where my son took swimming last year had some kind of
> athlete's foot outbreak related to the family changing room, and a lot of
> kids were affected (although thankfully not mine!)
>
> What do any lurking medical professionals think of this policy? Is there
> ANY reason it actually makes sense, other than that the Gymboree people
> were trying to appease a vocal and stupid faction?
>
>
> --
> hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
> "uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
> not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

My two year old often has damp socks when he takes his shoes off, his feet
sweat I can say that at least. The problem with bare feet in my opinion
would be athletes foot and verrucas, I imagine athletes foot is more common
in adults than kids. However why not say "keep your shoes on if you have
athletes foot" if you have it you know about it. It's easy to treat.
Verrucas happen more often in kids as far as I know. Seems a bit silly, an
adult would probably do themselves more damage slipping on a smooth floor in
socks than a kid would.

Besides if it's sweat they are worried about then that would be on the socks
too. I think it just sounds like someone being squeemish, not a very
sensible policy.

[Rosalie B.]

x-no-archive:yes (Elana Kehoe) wrote:

>Hillary Israeli > wrote:
>
>> "the kid's feet don't have any sweat glands, so it's
>> not a problem for them to be barefoot, but the adult's feet sweat, so it's
>> not good for them to be barefoot." I asked if they had consulted a medical
>> professional about this and was informed that yes, an RN gave them the
>> information which helped them to formulate their new policy.
>
>It was probably the RN who complained.
>
>What crap. Patrick's feet sweat, and he's 18 months. If they have a
>problem with people's feet sweating, they can wipe everything down with
>disinfectant between classes.
>
In some species, the young don't have scent etc. and are different
from the adults in order to aid in hiding the young from predators.
This is not the case for humans (at least the no scent part). There
is no truth to the idea that young children's feet don't sweat.

It may be somewhat more likely that fungus etc will be present on
adult feet than children's feet but if they are 'ascared' of that,
they can have everyone go through a foot bath (not that it will
actually help but may make them feel better).

>It is *always* better for people to be barefoot, since the air helps
>kill bacteria (yes, both good and bad), and for kids it helps them learn
>to walk properly.

Although I go barefoot as much as possible, it isn't ALWAYS better
although I would say that it is almost always true that barefoot
traction is better than traction with socks.

If you like you can get those footie type socks with those gripping
strips on the bottom for yourself. I slip less in those. Or just put
those antislip things from the bathtub on the bottom of your socks.
Or if you feel really strongly, slip, fall, pretend to be severely
injured and suggest that you will sue them. (joke)

>
>E
>who hates shoes, and goes barefoot whenever she can

I find that deck shoes have better traction than bare feet on a boat
deck. I wouldn't have believed it, but it is true. So dh insists
that I wear shoes on the boat, and mostly I do because he's right. I
also find that walking barefoot in coarse sand (like the streets of
Caye Caulker in Belize) wears the skin off the bottom of my feet.

grandma Rosalie

[llama mama]

"iphigenia" > wrote in
:

> Hillary Israeli wrote:
>>>
>>> What do any lurking medical professionals think of this policy? Is
>>> there ANY reason it actually makes sense, other than that the
>>> Gymboree people were trying to appease a vocal and stupid faction?
>>>
>
> Clearly I'm not a medical professional (come to think of it, I'm not
> anything professionally...). But I have met plenty of 0-4 year olds
> with stinky feet; doesn't that come from bacteria eating sweat?

yes. and my 35 month old has very sweaty feet if i make him wear shoes
(stupid Target insists he wear shoes or stay in the cart), so i don't
buy the kids don't have sweat glands in thier feet. making the adults
wear socks & letting the kids go barefoot isn't going to solve any
health issues. if the kid's parents have athlete's foot or plantar's
warts, the kid may very well be carrying it too. besides, most toddler
socks have grippies on the bottom & adult socks don't (add your own
with puff paint).
lee
--
It is paradoxical that many educators and parents still differentiate
between a time for learning and a time for play without seeing the vital
connection between them. -Leo Buscaglia, author (1924-1998)

[Cathy Weeks]

toto > wrote in message >...

> I don't have any medical information to back me up, but I found
> nothing online to suggest that children have less sweat glands in
> their feet than adults do.

My 19 month old gets sweaty feet, and after a day of wearing shoes and
socks her feet are stinky, too.

I suspect it's because adults are more likely to have foot fungus than
kids.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

[Cathy Weeks]

"kereru" > wrote in message >...
> My two year old often has damp socks when he takes his shoes off, his feet
> sweat I can say that at least. The problem with bare feet in my opinion
> would be athletes foot and verrucas, I imagine athletes foot is more common
> in adults than kids. However why not say "keep your shoes on if you have
> athletes foot" if you have it you know about it. It's easy to treat.

I had athletes foot for MONTHS before it was diagnosed. It didn't look
like any of the pictures I saw of it, and it took a podiatrist to
diagnose it (my primary care physician didn't even know what it was).
It didn't look gross or anything. However, I disagree about it being
hard to treat. It can be REALLY hard to get rid of. For me, it took
more than 6 weeks of 2x daily topical cream.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

[Welches]

Hillary Israeli > wrote in message
...
> OK, this is stupid, but I really am curious about what those of you on
> "the human side" think of this, because I think it's absurd but what do I
> know about people's feet?
>
Personally I will keep my feet covered because I have funny shaped feet
(genetical) and I don't like the look of them. I don't get sweaty feet
really, so that's not an issue. I have no problem with adults or children
going barefoot, and I don't think most foot fungus stuff isn't that
infectious.
I usually put ballet shoes on dd now at that sort of thing because she
always wears dresses and in the winter she has tights on which are a pain to
remove. They give her that extra grip.
I'd suggest you get some ballet shoes (ebay usually has a few sizes cheap)
or some of those slipper socks with grips on the sole.
Debbie

[kereru]

"Cathy Weeks" > wrote in message
om...
> "kereru" > wrote in message
>...
> > My two year old often has damp socks when he takes his shoes off, his
feet
> > sweat I can say that at least. The problem with bare feet in my opinion
> > would be athletes foot and verrucas, I imagine athletes foot is more
common
> > in adults than kids. However why not say "keep your shoes on if you have
> > athletes foot" if you have it you know about it. It's easy to treat.
>
> I had athletes foot for MONTHS before it was diagnosed. It didn't look
> like any of the pictures I saw of it, and it took a podiatrist to
> diagnose it (my primary care physician didn't even know what it was).
> It didn't look gross or anything. However, I disagree about it being
> hard to treat. It can be REALLY hard to get rid of. For me, it took
> more than 6 weeks of 2x daily topical cream.
>
> Cathy Weeks
> Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

Oh Dear sounds like you had a nasty case of it. I admit that I haven't
actually had it but my Dad sometimes did and my husband does too. Both of
then say casually "oh I've got some athletes foot" and put some cream on it
and that's the last I hear of it. They must be playing it down! I just
assumed it was obvious when you had it. Clearly not :-)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Cathy Weeks > wrote:

*toto > wrote in message >...
*
*> I don't have any medical information to back me up, but I found
*> nothing online to suggest that children have less sweat glands in
*> their feet than adults do.
*
*My 19 month old gets sweaty feet, and after a day of wearing shoes and
*socks her feet are stinky, too.
*
*I suspect it's because adults are more likely to have foot fungus than
*kids.

Is that actually true?

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Cathy Weeks]

(Hillary Israeli) wrote in message >...

> *I suspect it's because adults are more likely to have foot fungus than
> *kids.
>
> Is that actually true?

Hmmm...now that you mention it, I'm not sure. However, my anecodotal
knowledge supports it (I know, I know, that's no support at all). I've
never heard of a little kid with foot fungus, but I've known many
adults (myself included) who have had it, and been treated for it.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

[CBI]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> OK, this is stupid, but I really am curious about what those of you on
> "the human side" think of this, because I think it's absurd but what do I
> know about people's feet?
>
> At our local Gymboree Play and Music center, staff encourages the children
> (age 0-4 years) to run barefoot on the mats and equipment, because it
> helps them from slipping and it is easier to climb and so forth. However,
> "due to complaints from some of the parents," it was recently made
> mandatory that *adults* wear socks in the playroom. So the children are
> barefoot, but the adults wear socks. I asked what the point of that was,
> and was informed that "the kid's feet don't have any sweat glands, so it's
> not a problem for them to be barefoot, but the adult's feet sweat, so it's
> not good for them to be barefoot." I asked if they had consulted a medical
> professional about this and was informed that yes, an RN gave them the
> information which helped them to formulate their new policy.
>

First of all - (Geeze, I know I am going to get flamed for this - bit I'll
say it anyway) - They asked an RN? Now, I think I have a lot of respect for
nurses. My mother is one. This is not the type of question nurses are
trained to answer (which would account for the answer they got). It is not a
matter of which professional knows more as much as that not all medical
professionals have the same areas of expertise.

I have always been suspicious of the "no shirt, no shoes, no service" types
of rules. With the exception of athlete's foot in showers I am not aware of
diseases that are passed in this way. Personally, I would think it would
make a heck of a lot more sense to make people wear gloves. Also, I doubt
the socks are serving as any type of barrier to what is on the adult's
feet - sweat, fungus, or otherwise. If they feel the need to be
ultra-hygienic it would make more sense to mandate that adults wear soft
soled shoes rather than socks. Besides, as you point out, there is a
liability issue with forcing people to wear slippery footwear.

As for the nurse's comments - as several here have pointed out - of course
kid's feet sweat. (S)he was being just plain silly. If they want an expert
opinion they should ask a dermatologist or infectious disease specialist
about the hazards of being exposed to bare feet in a dry (i.e. non-shower)
environment.

--
CBI

[CBI]

"Marijke" > wrote in message
...
> they *said* that they asked an RN.
>
> Marijke

That thought occured to me too. I just didn't want to be the one to say it.

--
CBI

[Cathy Weeks]

"CBI" > wrote in message >...

> First of all - (Geeze, I know I am going to get flamed for this - bit I'll
> say it anyway) - They asked an RN? Now, I think I have a lot of respect for
> nurses. My mother is one. This is not the type of question nurses are
> trained to answer (which would account for the answer they got). It is not a
> matter of which professional knows more as much as that not all medical
> professionals have the same areas of expertise.

Very true. When my podiatrist diagnosed my athlete's foot, he also
thought I had Raynaud's syndrome, and perhaps lupus. As a podiatrist,
he sees a lot of Raynaud's (a autoimmune disorder involving the
circulation of the extremeties), but not being either a Rhumatologist
or a neurologist, or even a general practitioner, he really didn't
know much about it. As it turned out, I don't have Raynaud's or lups
(just poor circulation - my toes turn grey when I sit on certain kinds
of chairs, and exam tables), and when I read up on lupus, all I could
think of was "this doesn't sound like me at all". In fact, the lupus
foundation page has 10 questions, and if you answer, I think 4 of them
yes, then they think you should be tested. The only one that I
answered yes to was "are you sun sensitive" (I'm fair skinned, freckly
with auburn hair..duh)

When I went in to my primary doctor for testing due to suspected
Raynauds, I relayed the podiatrists concerns, then told her about my
research, and her answer? "You probably know more about lupus at the
moment, than he does."

> As for the nurse's comments - as several here have pointed out - of course
> kid's feet sweat. (S)he was being just plain silly. If they want an expert
> opinion they should ask a dermatologist or infectious disease specialist
> about the hazards of being exposed to bare feet in a dry (i.e. non-shower)
> environment.

When I read the OP note, I also thought "RN? What do RNs know about
foot diseases?" Here's an example where I think a Podiatrist would
know a great deal.

But...I'm not sure that Hillary will have much effect on changing the
minds of the establishment.

Cathy Weeks
Mommy to Kivi Alexis 12/01

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Cathy Weeks > wrote:

*When I read the OP note, I also thought "RN? What do RNs know about
*foot diseases?" Here's an example where I think a Podiatrist would
*know a great deal.

True. To clarify, they didn't say they ASKED an RN exactly. They said that
an RN is the one who told them this stuff. For all I know the RN offerred
the information without having been asked!

*But...I'm not sure that Hillary will have much effect on changing the
*minds of the establishment.

Oh ye of little faith...

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[Hillary Israeli]

In >,
Hillary Israeli > wrote:

*In >,
*Cathy Weeks > wrote:
*
**When I read the OP note, I also thought "RN? What do RNs know about
**foot diseases?" Here's an example where I think a Podiatrist would
**know a great deal.
*
*True. To clarify, they didn't say they ASKED an RN exactly. They said that
*an RN is the one who told them this stuff. For all I know the RN offerred
*the information without having been asked!
*

OK, here's the deal. The owner of this gymboree franchise is an RN. I
spoke to her. She has no idea why staff was claiming the sock rule was for
medical reasons. She said that she and the owners of the other nearby
franchises all decided that they and their teachers are sick and tired of
staring at ugly grown-up feet and therefore they were requiring people to
wear socks once they are past the cute little feet stage of life.

--
hillary israeli vmd http://www.hillary.net
"uber vaccae in quattuor partes divisum est."
not-so-newly minted veterinarian-at-large :)

[iphigenia]

Hillary Israeli wrote:

>> OK, here's the deal. The owner of this gymboree franchise is an RN. I
>> spoke to her. She has no idea why staff was claiming the sock rule
>> was for medical reasons. She said that she and the owners of the
>> other nearby franchises all decided that they and their teachers are
>> sick and tired of staring at ugly grown-up feet and therefore they
>> were requiring people to wear socks once they are past the cute
>> little feet stage of life.

Well, at least they are honest, if shallow. Can you go barefoot if you
promise to get a pedicure before going to class?

--
iphigenia
www.tristyn.net

[Banty]

In article >, says...
>
>In >,
>Hillary Israeli > wrote:
>
>*In >,
>*Cathy Weeks > wrote:
>*
>**When I read the OP note, I also thought "RN? What do RNs know about
>**foot diseases?" Here's an example where I think a Podiatrist would
>**know a great deal.
>*
>*True. To clarify, they didn't say they ASKED an RN exactly. They said that
>*an RN is the one who told them this stuff. For all I know the RN offerred
>*the information without having been asked!
>*
>
>OK, here's the deal. The owner of this gymboree franchise is an RN. I
>spoke to her. She has no idea why staff was claiming the sock rule was for
>medical reasons. She said that she and the owners of the other nearby
>franchises all decided that they and their teachers are sick and tired of
>staring at ugly grown-up feet and therefore they were requiring people to
>wear socks once they are past the cute little feet stage of life.

You should have given her a long studying look, smiled sympathetically, and told
her of the benefits to all should she go into purdah...

Jees..

Banty

[W.D. Peckenpaugh]

"Hillary Israeli" > wrote in message
...
> OK, here's the deal. The owner of this gymboree franchise is an RN. I
> spoke to her. She has no idea why staff was claiming the sock rule was for
> medical reasons. She said that she and the owners of the other nearby
> franchises all decided that they and their teachers are sick and tired of
> staring at ugly grown-up feet and therefore they were requiring people to
> wear socks once they are past the cute little feet stage of life.

What a repugnant answer. I am truly ashamed that such a body-negative excuse
came from someone in the nursing profession.

If these "teachers" are tired of "staring at ugly grown-up feet," then don't
stare at them. Stare instead at the children, who (I would assume) should be
their primary concern in any case.

Or, even better, simply grow up. The beauty of parents interacting with
their children should more than compensate for their "ugly, grown-up" feet.


Bill
--
Bill Peckenpaugh
Director, Public Relations
Oregon Student Nurses' Association
http://www.oregonsna.org/

[Dizzysmamma]

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Duncan}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}} }}}}}}}}}